How many PCs are there?

[woweedd]

This is a debate that came up in another Thread, but I thought it was an interesting enough question to deserve its own discussion: Who, exactly, counts as "PCs"? IE Player characters, as opposed to NPCs, in the context of the comic? Far as i'm concerned, PC seems to mainly just be a synonym for protagonist, and, by that view, the answer is simple. The protagonists of The Order of the Stick are..The Order of the Stick. Which is to say, the 3 humans, one elf, one dwarf, and one halfing, give or take a familiar and two animal companions, that comprise our main party. Being an NPC doesn't mean your free willis limited, contrary to what Roy occasionally seems to think: It just means you aren't a main character. Your thoughts?

[Gift Jeraff]

Only 6. It probably doesn't mean anything within the metaphysics of the universe, other than maybe that certain things gravitate towards them.

[Darth Paul]

I don't think it's a meaningful distinction within OOTS, since there are no actual players. The PCs are those who have PC classes; NPCs may be PC classes but not the protagonists (for example, Tarquin and the Linear Guild, with some exceptions therein) or they may be the NPC races (example: the majority of the goblins and hobgoblins; Sabine, who is apparently a standard-issue succubus although she may have some skills and abilities that deviate from the "book" example; Trigak). In OOTS, they all have free will, subject to being vampire-dominated, charmed, and whatever.

In a D&D game, of course, all the PCs and all the NPCs theoretically have free will too, for a given definition, except that the "free will" is the will of the person playing them, and as DM you find yourself having to keep track of NPCs with vastly different and opposing goals, sometimes in the same room at the same time. Like two henchmen who worked for my PCs but were secretly of opposing factions in their city, and were subtly trying, in one case, to divert their hero from the goal of the quest so their faction could be the ones to uncover and plunder a legendary hoard, and in the other's case trying to actually get his hero to turn on the party as they were "conspiring against the city" (he was a lying little snake, and I played him well, until his secrets piled up too high and he became a villain of the campaign instead).

[Kish]

It looks straightfoward to me: PC=Protagonist.

Sometimes there are fourth-wall breaking references to characters who were protagonists/PCs in other stories that didn't actually exist story-externally (like the Order of the Scribble) or in other works being parodied (like Larry Gardener) but as far as the current comic goes, six protagonists, which means six PCs.

Some people seem to instinctively recoil at that concept--whether because they're used to other D&D editions' "NPCs use completely different rules than PCs" thing or because they somehow hear "only six PCs" as "only six adventurers" or "only six actual characters rather than paper-thin plot mannequins."

[woweedd]

It looks straightfoward to me: PC=Protagonist.

Sometimes there are fourth-wall breaking references to characters who were protagonists/PCs in other stories that didn't actually exist story-externally (like the Order of the Scribble) or in other works being parodied (like Larry Gardener) but as far as the current comic goes, six protagonists, which means six PCs.

Some people seem to instinctively recoil at that concept--whether because they're used to other D&D editions' "NPCs use completely different rules than PCs" thing or because they somehow hear "only six PCs" as "only six adventurers" or "only six actual characters rather than paper-thin plot mannequins."
Yeah, one of my favorite parts of 3E is that it’s the most, to use the pretentious term, simulationist version of D&D. PCs and NPCs are built off the same rules, the walls have hitpoints, and if you want to, say, make a giant chicken, you just find the appropriate stat block, plug in a series of modifiers, and, just like that, you have its exact stats.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, one of my favorite parts of 3E is that it’s the most, to use the pretentious term, simulationist version of D&D. PCs and Npcs are built off the same rules, the walls have hitpoints, and if you want to, say, make a giant chicken, you just find the appropriate stat block, plug in a series of modifiers, and, just like that, you have its exact stats.

And if you want to play (or make your players fight) a god-tier potted plant, you can build it.

Grey Wolf

[Riftwolf]

As a tangent; has there ever been the other type of PC in the comic?

[Kish]

...a personal computer? No.

[zimmerwald1915]

...a personal computer? No.
What about the device Malack used to show Durkon his Macebook?

[Jasdoif]

What about the device Malack used to show Durkon his Macebook?I think that was his Macebook; there's the book-page-curl on the panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html) And if that counts, I think we need to ask if Sabine has a digital computer telephone. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)

[Riftwolf]

I think that was his Macebook; there's the book-page-curl on the panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html) And if that counts, I think we need to ask if Sabine has a digital computer telephone. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)

Sabines phone looks like an old Nokia. The only phone that can get signal in Hell.

[woweedd]

Sabines phone looks like an old Nokia. The only phone that can get signal in Hell.
No, it gets service, but it’s really slow. Hellish science has found slow Internet is actually MORE annoying then no Internet.

[JeenLeen]

While in general I agree that there's no meaningful distinction between PC and NPC beyond 1) class levels or 2) who is a protagonist AND 3) where plot gravitates, there is a neat thing stated that being named matters. As a funny coincidence, I forget their names (Daigo and Kazumi?), but the Azurite husband and wife duo who almost die, but survive after revealing their names, and later get married.

On the other hand, this is a joke referenced maybe twice (when they almost die, and when he decides to use his wife's last name to keep his hidden), so I'm not saying it should be used to justify metaphysical canon. (Even if personally I'd like to use it thus, and based on Thor's reveal this being a stick-figure parody universe, perhaps the importance of plot-centric characters knowing your name is woven into the laws of the universe.)

Note: with my 1, 2, 3 above, I mean (1 OR 2) AND 3 seem to be true. But it seemed too clunky to put parentheses in the actual paragraph.

[Kish]

Class levels are not a distinction between a PC and an NPC.

[Draconi Redfir]

i always looked at it like "Players" are weird background spirits that can take interest in a person, possibly from birth idk, and give them some small benefits or make them their avatars or something. the spirit doesn't have a lot of power and doesn't take direct control of the character in question, but the character definitely has an easier time becoming stronger.

i'd say that there are more PC's in the stickverse then just the order, things like the order of the scribble, possibly the linear guild, Tarquin's crew, maybe even Xykon at one point pre-lichdom maybe. plus others offscreen that we haven't seen, enough people seem to know what PC's are that there are probably more then just six of them. (Frudu, trying to destroy the ming anyone? :P)

in "the origin of PC's", Redcloak does the forward /preface / intro thing, and he says "I do not have a player, nor do i want one" which suggest to me this background-spirit thing.

other possible PC's i could think of would be the other "adventurers" who applied for the order of the stick, the half-ogre spiked-chain guy, some of the other Paladins or heroes dying that Teevo reccorded for Xykon, maaaybe miko, o-chul, and/or hinjo, and maybe even Therkla.


TL;DR: "Probably more then just the order" is what i'm saying here.

[rbetieh]

i always looked at it like "Players" are weird background spirits that can take interest in a person, possibly from birth idk, and give them some small benefits or make them their avatars or something. the spirit doesn't have a lot of power and doesn't take direct control of the character in question, but the character definitely has an easier time becoming stronger.

i'd say that there are more PC's in the stickverse then just the order, things like the order of the scribble, possibly the linear guild, Tarquin's crew, maybe even Xykon at one point pre-lichdom maybe. plus others offscreen that we haven't seen, enough people seem to know what PC's are that there are probably more then just six of them. (Frudu, trying to destroy the ming anyone? :P)

in "the origin of PC's", Redcloak does the forward /preface / intro thing, and he says "I do not have a player, nor do i want one" which suggest to me this background-spirit thing.

other possible PC's i could think of would be the other "adventurers" who applied for the order of the stick, the half-ogre spiked-chain guy, some of the other Paladins or heroes dying that Teevo reccorded for Xykon, maaaybe miko, o-chul, and/or hinjo, and maybe even Therkla.


TL;DR: "Probably more then just the order" is what i'm saying here.

Yeah, all the protagonists in Teevo are also PC's by either proposed definition, IMO.

[woweedd]

Yeah, all the protagonists in Teevo are also PC's by either proposed definition, IMO.
I mean, on the meta-level, they aren't actual protagonists, so...

[Kish]

Indeed. No one who wasn't trying to be a smartass or specifically establish more than six PCs would reply "Frudu and Samwose" to the question "Who are the protagonists of the Order of the Stick?"

Similarly, whether or not Jon Snow is the protagonist of Game of Thrones, Jim Slush is not a protagonist here.

[woweedd]

Indeed. No one who wasn't trying to be a smartass or specifically establish more than six PCs would reply "Frudu and Samwose" to the question "Who are the protagonists of the Order of the Stick?"

Similarly, whether or not Jon Snow is the protagonist of Game of Thrones, Jim Slush is not a protagonist here.
I'm not sure GOT HAS a protagonist. It has thousands of POV characters, but as for protagonists...Jon Snow and Daenerys, sure. Tyrion is an Antihero if ever there was one, but, yeah, definitely a Protag. Arya, Bran, Jamie, also very strong contenders. Past that, it gets hard.
But, putting that aside, yeah, I agree. The protagonists of the Order of the Stick are...See title. Not The Linear Guild, Not the Vector Legion, not the Order of the Scribble, and most certainly not the Fellowship of The Hypotenuse, or the Illustration League, because they don't exist.

[chiefwaha]

All thoughts of what being a PC means in OotS world aside, I've always had the head canon that there are several different sets of PCs in OotS.

You have the main campaign PCs (Roy, Durkon, Elan, Belkar, Haley, V)
You have an old campaign (Soon and Co)
You have an evil campaign (Tarquin and group)
A couple of side groups or individual characters for when the main group can't get together(O-chul and Lien for example)

I have a campaign going on 30 years with a similar distribution.

[Kish]

If Tarquin's a PC, a protagonist, why does he expect to lose? Check out the Hell's Vengeance adventure path; published evil campaigns no more incorporate "and then the PCs ultimately fail because good always triumphs over evil" than published good ones incorporate "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb."

And Soon is dead and hung around in the throne room doing nothing for decades before his one big scene. If you have a similar PC in your current campaign, I hope the player has a high tolerance for boredom.

[chiefwaha]

I said an old campaign... Not anything current... with old characters dropping in... And who said PCs had to be protagonists?

Of course this is a webcomic and not an actual campaign... and like I said, it's all my thoughts.

[Draconi Redfir]

I mean, on the meta-level, they aren't actual protagonists, so...

meta-level doesn't matter though, we're talking in-universe.



Indeed. No one who wasn't trying to be a smartass or specifically establish more than six PCs would reply "Frudu and Samwose" to the question "Who are the protagonists of the Order of the Stick?"

the question wasn't "who are the protagonists of the order of the stick" though, the question was "How many PC's are in the world Order of the Stick takes place in", to wich, Frudu and Samwose could be two possibilities.


If Tarquin's a PC, a protagonist, why does he expect to lose? Check out the Hell's Vengeance adventure path; published evil campaigns no more incorporate "and then the PCs ultimately fail because good always triumphs over evil" than published good ones incorporate "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb."

And Soon is dead and hung around in the throne room doing nothing for decades before his one big scene. If you have a similar PC in your current campaign, I hope the player has a high tolerance for boredom.

Maybe Tarquin isn't a protagonist now, but back when he was taking over, he would have been from his point of view, it was just an Evil campaign similar to Way of the Wicked. Tarquin is just genre savvy enough to realize when good-aligned PC's come along, that means it's time to pass on the torch and end his campaign.

i mean if you insist on talking like a tabletop game, it could have been a guest visit, someone who played with the DM years ago heard the current party was in the area relevant to his character, and heard what was happening, so he came back to make an epic guest appearance for a bit.

more likely though PC doesn't translate to a player sitting at a table, and could possibly even not carry over after death, meaning Soon in life could have been a PC, while ghost Martyr Soon was just a powerful NPC.

[zimmerwald1915]

If Tarquin's a PC, a protagonist, why does he expect to lose? Check out the Hell's Vengeance adventure path
Or don't. It's kinda bad, and I regret spending money on it.

Check out Way of the Wicked instead.

[Fyraltari]

Or don't. It's kinda bad, and I regret spending money on it.

Check out Way of the Wicked instead.
The alliteration alone obviously makes it superior anyway.

[chiefwaha]

Maybe Tarquin isn't a protagonist now, but back when he was taking over, he would have been from his point of view, it was just an Evil campaign similar to Way of the Wicked. Tarquin is just genre savvy enough to realize when good-aligned PC's come along, that means it's time to pass on the torch and end his campaign.

i mean if you insist on talking like a tabletop game, it could have been a guest visit, someone who played with the DM years ago heard the current party was in the area relevant to his character, and heard what was happening, so he came back to make an epic guest appearance for a bit.

more likely though PC doesn't translate to a player sitting at a table, and could possibly even not carry over after death, meaning Soon in life could have been a PC, whole ghost Martyr Soon was just a powerful NPC.

Thank you for communicating my thoughts much better than I could. :smallsmile:

[Kish]

Or don't. It's kinda bad, and I regret spending money on it.

Check out Way of the Wicked instead.
I concur that Way of the Wicked is superior writing, but since it's not official Paizo material and future Pathfinder books will count on "Hell's Vengeance was successfully completed" and not on "Way of the Wicked was successfully completed," not a good example for my point.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

As for the question of the thread, I like the theory put forth on Tv Tropes a few years ago that being a "PC" in the OOTS universe is essentially a hereditary immunity to diplomacy.

[Son of A Lich!]

Being a "PC" and "Having Levels in a PC Classes" or a monster with PC Class Levels are all identifiable on sight and distinguished between the NPCs.

Maybe not accurately... but more then a few references to a character's PC status have been made, Like Redcloak Denying having a player, or Roy talking about having one.

I think it makes Elan a surprisingly powerful character in universe, knowing that story telling conventions are the norm here and being able to identify it and use it reliably is a very powerful blessing.

Well... I mean... "Reliably"... but whatever.

[CriticalFailure]

No, it gets service, but it’s really slow. Hellish science has found slow Internet is actually MORE annoying then no Internet.

Hell 100% has dial up.

[snowblizz]

As for the question of the thread, I like the theory put forth on Tv Tropes a few years ago that being a "PC" in the OOTS universe is essentially a hereditary immunity to diplomacy.

In one of the forewords Redcloak goes on about the differences of PCs and NPCs, sort of. From his point of view as an acknowledged NPC, PCs are just luckier, more favoured by the universe for no apparent reason. The parallell to the goblin's plight compared to humans, dwarfs, etc is 100% intended IMO.

[martianmister]

but more then a few references to a character's PC status have been made, Like...Roy talking about having one.

When did this happen?

[CriticalFailure]

In the Azure City battle the party references being PCs