D&D 3.5 - Questions About the Incarnate's Role

[ColorBlindNinja]

So, I find myself having difficulty understanding what the Incarnate is supposed to do.

I get that it's a flexible class. I get that it works well with gestalt and multiclass builds. But what about with just 20 levels in Incarnate?

What can a pure class Incarnate do?

As far as I know:

- Incarnates can tank. Can they actually get enemies to target them, or do they just hope that they don't get ignored like a sword & board Fighter?

- Skill Monkey. Do they do this job better than a Rogue or a Bard?

- Melee/Ranged build. I think they can fill this role? EDIT: I recall ranged builds use Dissolving Spittle?

- UMD. I know they can do it, but I can't say find that role terribly interesting.



Additionally, is one alignment type of Incarnate significantly better than its peers? Or is each alignment suited for a different role?

EDIT: Lawful Neutral Incarnate = melee combatant?

I would appreciate any answers that are offered.

P.S. I have red Sinfire Titans handbook on this topic, it was a tad vague. :smallfrown:

[Karl Aegis]

This is 3.5e. You don't pigeonhole classes into roles. You decide what role you want to be and choose which classes you want to support your decision.

[The Kool]

Regardless of the above, the answer is that the Incarnate does not excel at anything. You can build it to focus on skillmonkey, tank, melee brute, or even archer (I think). They have the capacity for a respectable tank, but what they do is pick whichever is needed most for the day. If you're in a fixed party with fixed roles and everybody sticks to their shtick, then you can make the Incarnate work for almost any of those roles, but it won't be ideal by a long stretch.

[Arcanist]

This is 3.5e. You don't pigeonhole classes into roles. You decide what role you want to be and choose which classes you want to support your decision.

This is probably the best answer you're going to get on this subject. The Incarnate is an OKAY class by itself in that it has a few neat stuff it can do.

Incarnates can heal with Lifebond Vestments, give everyone in their group concealment with the Fellmist Robe, Evil Incarnates get access to Necrocarnum stuff which is hit or miss, Planar Chasuble is Magikarp scaling (Gate once per week.)

Generally speaking you're going to meld whatever your party really needs. It's a Jack-of-all-trades type job at best that is outclassed quite easily if you play almost anything else at a similar tier (The Incarnate scales from low-end tier 3, to tier 6 if played poorly).

[ColorBlindNinja]

Generally speaking you're going to meld whatever your party really needs. It's a Jack-of-all-trades type job at best that is outclassed quite easily if you play almost anything else at a similar tier

So it can do several different things decently, but doesn't excel at anything?

EDIT:


Regardless of the above, the answer is that the Incarnate does not excel at anything.

Yep, that seems to be the answer I'm getting.

[The Kool]

It's like working with a box of crayons. You can make art, but it's not going to be fine art. Or you can make scribbles on the wall. The tools are the same, it's all in whether you use them in a way that makes sense (and if it makes sense to you).

[Arcanist]

Strictly speaking? You're better off just taking the Incarnate as a dip for a type of Theurge. Magic of Incarnum should have gotten more content associated with it to help flesh it out. It's conceptually cool, but mechanically kind of dull.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Strictly speaking? You're better off just taking the Incarnate as a dip for a type of Theurge.

I figured. A lot of their abilities synergize with spellcasting.

[Segev]

It feels worth noting to me that the way the class is structured, it’s probably meant to be not just “an Incarnate,” but rather actively termed “Good Incarnate” or “Law Incarnate” or “Chaos Incarnate” or “Evil Incarnate.” To be said in much the way you’d use it as an epithet. “That man - that creature - is Evil Incarnate.

So, from a role playing perspective, the intent for that class might be to let you shape yourself to fill a role of “the dreaded” for whatever you’re trying to do. Less important to be actually dangerous than to be intimidating and possibly off-putting.

Not sure how well it actually does that, though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It feels worth noting to me that the way the class is structured, it’s probably meant to be not just “an Incarnate,” but rather actively termed “Good Incarnate” or “Law Incarnate” or “Chaos Incarnate” or “Evil Incarnate.” To be said in much the way you’d use it as an epithet. “That man - that creature - is Evil Incarnate.

Speaking of, do the various alignment types of Incarnate offer any significant advantages over one another?

[Piggy Knowles]

Incarnate is definitely a jack of all trades, master of none type. Dish out respectable but not great melee or ranged damage, become a scout or a social butterfly, provide some limited minionmancy or BFC, debuff a bit, etc. What separates it out from other jack of all trades classes is that it can change up which role it fills on a daily basis. That can actually make it kind of awkward to play in your average “fighter, mage, cleric, sneak” style party, because if you are sticking to just one role, there’s usually a better class that can take that role on. But for example I ran a PbP here a few years ago with a lot of very flexible classes (an incarnate, a factotum, a binder, a swordsage and a duskblade), and the fact that the incarnate could adjust his role from day to day was used to great effect.

There is one thing that incarnates excel at, but that isn't really a role in and of itself. Incarnates have quite possibly the best defensive options of any non-full caster: multiple stacking ways of boosting AC and saves, several sources of energy resistance, damage reduction, spell resistance and flat-out immunities to powerful effects (including big ones like death effects and ability damage). If your goal is to play turtle, an incarnate can probably do it better than anything short of a big 3 caster. But as you pointed out, a turtle isn't a particularly useful role. It's very nice when used in addition to something else, but on its own, it will just mean that you end up getting ignored in combat when enemies realize they can't kill you.

Anyhow, if you want to put the incarnate in a role, that role is skill-monkey. There are a couple of reasons for this:

Skill-monkeys are marginalized roles anyhow (because generally any given skill set is not going to be applicable in every situation), so the fact that you can change essentia investment on the fly and completely change up your role daily means you're less likely to spend encounters being useless.
With a very small amount of preparation, you can pretty much always have the particular skill-set you need, whether that means trapfinding, scouting or being the party face.
The fact that the incarnate has a lot of very good defensive abilities is a welcome change for a skill-monkey, who is more often in dangerous situations and who is traditionally the most vunerable party member.
Skill-monkeying is the one role where incarnates can actually stand toe to toe with more traditional party members. Consider the following: an incarnate can generally expect a +6 to its relevant skills at levels 1-2, +8 from levels 3-5, +10 from levels 6-11, +12 from levels 12-14, +14 from levels 15-17 and +16 from levels 18-20. The Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat increases this by an additional +2 and an incarnum focus item adds yet another +2. That means that an incarnate will typically only need 3 skill ranks at some point in its full 20 level career to match up with a fully-invested skill-monkey. That's more than doable even with the incarnate's meager skill point allotment.
Many of the incarnate's mid- to high-level abilities work out better in non-combat situations. For example, an incarnate can have suggestion at will from level 14 on, which is going to have limited uses in combat at the point that it's available but can be near-gamebreaking in social contexts (especially considering that this ability comes alongside the incarnate's best boost to social skills).


There are two really common pitfalls I tend to see with incarnates. One is attempting to do everything at once. Like anything else, an incarnate should try to focus on melds that support each other over on any given day. You can spread things out a little bit, but if you try to be the party face, the trapfinder and the tank all at once, you'll end up sucking at all three. The other is, as you referenced in your post, going too crazy with defensive abilities and forgetting to look at what you'll actually DO. "Hard to kill" isn't a party role. Use those defenses to keep you alive while you're doing the thing you want to do.

EDIT: The alignment issue only really comes up for weapon users. It's going to mostly define two things: your incarnate avatar and your incarnum radiance ability. Lawful and evil tend to be the best at melee, with lawful being a bit better just because increasing your to-hit is more valuable to the poor-BAB incarnate than increasing melee damage, especially considering that you'll rarely be making more than two attacks in a round. Good is the best defensively, while chaos is the best option for ranged combat.

In general I prefer lawful or evil. I don't like good because frankly you have other options for boosting AC, and playing a good incarnate means you are completely locked out of ever using necrocarnum melds. Lawful is the best at actually pulling off the melee role, but evil is nice for being able to use necrocarnum without spending a feat. I'm not a huge fan of chaos because being good at ranged combat is still hard without heavy feat investments, and that kinda locks you into a role, which defeats the whole point of being an incarnate.

(Oh and as Troacctid rightfully points out, your detect opposition ability is also affected, which can actually be pretty relevant in practice but will depend heavily on the campaign.)

[Troacctid]

Speaking of, do the various alignment types of Incarnate offer any significant advantages over one another?
Evil has zombie minions. Good has the most useful detect opposition. Outside of that, they have different Incarnum Radiance abilities and different racial substitution levels. Incarnate Avatar also changes, but let's be real, you're probably not shaping that one most of the time.

[CactusAir]

As far as alignment specific effect goes I think LAW is the most popular, for the "STABBITY STAB"

and at level 19 you get a huge pile of immunities. but how many games go to level 19?

Overall, Piggy has the solid advice. Skill fill is a thing Incarnates do well.

Rogue1/Incarnate19 is a build i have done more than once.

once for the (Chageling Sub level) for rogue, once for (Tiefling Sub level) for Incarnate.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Incarnate is definitely a jack of all trades, master of none type. Dish out respectable but not great melee or ranged damage, become a scout or a social butterfly, provide some limited minionmancy or BFC, debuff a bit, etc. What separates it out from other jack of all trades classes is that it can change up which role it fills on a daily basis. That can actually make it kind of awkward to play in your average “fighter, mage, cleric, sneak” style party, because if you are sticking to just one role, there’s usually a better class that can take that role on. But for example I ran a PbP here a few years ago with a lot of very flexible classes (an incarnate, a factotum, a binder, a swordsage and a duskblade), and the fact that the incarnate could adjust his role from day to day was used to great effect.

There is one thing that incarnates excel at, but that isn't really a role in and of itself. Incarnates have quite possibly the best defensive options of any non-full caster: multiple stacking ways of boosting AC and saves, several sources of energy resistance, damage reduction, spell resistance and flat-out immunities to powerful effects (including big ones like death effects and ability damage). If your goal is to play turtle, an incarnate can probably do it better than anything short of a big 3 caster. But as you pointed out, a turtle isn't a particularly useful role. It's very nice when used in addition to something else, but on its own, it will just mean that you end up getting ignored in combat when enemies realize they can't kill you.

Anyhow, if you want to put the incarnate in a role, that role is skill-monkey. There are a couple of reasons for this:

Skill-monkeys are marginalized roles anyhow (because generally any given skill set is not going to be applicable in every situation), so the fact that you can change essentia investment on the fly and completely change up your role daily means you're less likely to spend encounters being useless.
With a very small amount of preparation, you can pretty much always have the particular skill-set you need, whether that means trapfinding, scouting or being the party face.
The fact that the incarnate has a lot of very good defensive abilities is a welcome change for a skill-monkey, who is more often in dangerous situations and who is traditionally the most vunerable party member.
Skill-monkeying is the one role where incarnates can actually stand toe to toe with more traditional party members. Consider the following: an incarnate can generally expect a +6 to its relevant skills at levels 1-2, +8 from levels 3-5, +10 from levels 6-11, +12 from levels 12-14, +14 from levels 15-17 and +16 from levels 18-20. The Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat increases this by an additional +2 and an incarnum focus item adds yet another +2. That means that an incarnate will typically only need 3 skill ranks at some point in its full 20 level career to match up with a fully-invested skill-monkey. That's more than doable even with the incarnate's meager skill point allotment.
Many of the incarnate's mid- to high-level abilities work out better in non-combat situations. For example, an incarnate can have suggestion at will from level 14 on, which is going to have limited uses in combat at the point that it's available but can be near-gamebreaking in social contexts (especially considering that this ability comes alongside the incarnate's best boost to social skills).


There are two really common pitfalls I tend to see with incarnates. One is attempting to do everything at once. Like anything else, an incarnate should try to focus on melds that support each other over on any given day. You can spread things out a little bit, but if you try to be the party face, the trapfinder and the tank all at once, you'll end up sucking at all three. The other is, as you referenced in your post, going too crazy with defensive abilities and forgetting to look at what you'll actually DO. "Hard to kill" isn't a party role. Use those defenses to keep you alive while you're doing the thing you want to do.

EDIT: The alignment issue only really comes up for weapon users. It's going to mostly define two things: your incarnate avatar and your incarnum radiance ability. Lawful and evil tend to be the best at melee, with lawful being a bit better just because increasing your to-hit is more valuable to the poor-BAB incarnate than increasing melee damage, especially considering that you'll rarely be making more than two attacks in a round. Good is the best defensively, while chaos is the best option for ranged combat.

In general I prefer lawful or evil. I don't like good because frankly you have other options for boosting AC, and playing a good incarnate means you are completely locked out of ever using necrocarnum melds. Lawful is the best at actually pulling off the melee role, but evil is nice for being able to use necrocarnum without spending a feat. I'm not a huge fan of chaos because being good at ranged combat is still hard without heavy feat investments, and that kinda locks you into a role, which defeats the whole point of being an incarnate.

(Oh and as Troacctid rightfully points out, your detect opposition ability is also affected, which can actually be pretty relevant in practice but will depend heavily on the campaign.)


Evil has zombie minions. Good has the most useful detect opposition. Outside of that, they have different Incarnum Radiance abilities and different racial substitution levels. Incarnate Avatar also changes, but let's be real, you're probably not shaping that one most of the time.

Thank you, both of you, for the information. :smallsmile:

[Rixitichil]

There are also a few soulmelds you can choose to steal from Totemist that are restricted by alignment. Shedu Crown strikes me as the most relevant for giving access to Mindsight at level 3.

From playing a Chaos Incarnate, I think there is space in ignoring their Avatar and just taking advantage of the increased speed. But that definitely puts it at a disadvantage compared to Law or Evil.

[Segev]

On the subject of flexibility, I tend to like a changeling Incarnate 3/totemist 2 for entry to not Chameleon. The super daily shiftability of the meldshaping combines well with the pick-your-own-role/class thing of that PrC, and the two classes get you a lot of melds and essentia each day.

[Particle_Man]

Law is needed for the sapphire Hierarch prestige class?

[Particle_Man]

once for the (Chageling Sub level) for rogue, once for (Tiefling Sub level) for Incarnate.

Is it a changeling trait that you can take racial substitution levels as if another race?

[Arcanist]

Law is needed for the sapphire Hierarch prestige class?

Yes, but just go Ur-Priest, hit up the Catalogues of Enlightenment, and enter that way instead. Faster progression, exit out of Incarnate at 3rd level, take 2 levels in Totemist, go into Ur-Priest and you're on your way to getting books thrown at you.

Is it a changeling trait that you can take racial substitution levels as if another race?

Arguably Racial Emulation lets you do this for humanoids, but Tiefling is an Outsider so this doesn't work.


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example).

[Troacctid]

There are also a few soulmelds you can choose to steal from Totemist that are restricted by alignment. Shedu Crown strikes me as the most relevant for giving access to Mindsight at level 3.
You could also say Shedu Crown is the second-worst one. There's literally exactly two of them.


From playing a Chaos Incarnate, I think there is space in ignoring their Avatar and just taking advantage of the increased speed. But that definitely puts it at a disadvantage compared to Law or Evil.
Incarnate Avatar is way down the list of soulmelds that you actually want to shape. I don't think any of the four alignments really cares about it, at least not until they can bind it.


Yes, but just go Ur-Priest, hit up the Catalogues of Enlightenment, and enter that way instead. Faster progression, exit out of Incarnate at 3rd level, take 2 levels in Totemist, go into Ur-Priest and you're on your way to getting books thrown at you.
You can't use Catalogues of Enlightenment to qualify for a domain requirement. You have to actually have the domain, not just the domain power.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Arguably Racial Emulation lets you do this for humanoids, but Tiefling is an Outsider so this doesn't work.

I guess you could use the Lesser Planetouched variant instead.

[Doctor Awkward]

As pretty much everyone has said, Incarnate is not, strictly speaking, a strong class. As treantmonk noted in his Wizard guide, from an optimization perspective there are essentially 4 traditional party roles out of combat: the social (party face), the sneak, the healbot, and the utility caster. During combat, it's The Big Stupid Fighter, The Glass Cannon, God, and the Waste of Space.

The problem with Incarate is that it has a lot of interesting options to do a lot of neat and unusual things, but it doesn't excel at filling any of those roles, so in an optimized group it's hard to find a place in a party that doesn't already have those areas of expertise covered. This largely stems from it's chassis: it has the most options of any meldshaping class, but is saddled with a d6 hit dice, wizard BAB progression, and obnoxious alignment restrictions on it's available soulmelds. It additionally has very lackluster class features that are also dependent on alignment.

[Troacctid]

I guess you could use the Lesser Planetouched variant instead.
Only if the DM decides that the entire campaign world uses the variant. It's one of the all-or-nothing ones.


As pretty much everyone has said, Incarnate is not, strictly speaking, a strong class. As treantmonk noted in his Wizard guide, from an optimization perspective there are essentially 4 traditional party roles out of combat: the social (party face), the sneak, the healbot, and the utility caster. During combat, it's The Big Stupid Fighter, The Glass Cannon, God, and the Waste of Space.

The problem with Incarate is that it has a lot of interesting options to do a lot of neat and unusual things, but it doesn't excel at filling any of those roles, so in an optimized group it's hard to find a place in a party that doesn't already have those areas of expertise covered. This largely stems from it's chassis: it has the most options of any meldshaping class, but is saddled with a d6 hit dice, wizard BAB progression, and obnoxious alignment restrictions on it's available soulmelds. It additionally has very lackluster class features that are also dependent on alignment.
Incarnate does just fine at beatstickery at low levels and transitions easily to a utility and support role later on while still functioning as an off-tank. The alignment stuff flavors the class a little, but ultimately doesn't matter very much because all of the best incarnate soulmelds are unaligned except for one (the zombie one).

[Arcanist]

You can't use Catalogues of Enlightenment to qualify for a domain requirement. You have to actually have the domain, not just the domain power.

It's a RAI vs RAW thing because the prerequisites for "access to a domain" is very nebulous. Does it entail just the power? or the spell? or do you need both? If you just need the power, Catalogues of Enlightenment works just fine. If you need the spells, at which spell level do you qualify as having "access to the law domain" and so on and so forth.

Unless there has been some sort of discovery that clearly defines it in detail, it's a rules grey area and grey areas are where early entry tricks shine the best.

[Troacctid]

It's a RAI vs RAW thing because the prerequisites for "access to a domain" is very nebulous. Does it entail just the power? or the spell? or do you need both? If you just need the power, Catalogues of Enlightenment works just fine. If you need the spells, at which spell level do you qualify as having "access to the law domain" and so on and so forth.

Unless there has been some sort of discovery that clearly defines it in detail, it's a rules grey area and grey areas are where early entry tricks shine the best.
"Discovery" is a strong word—it's defined right there in the PHB glossary.

domain: A granted power and a set of nine divine spells (one each of 1st through 9th level) themed around a particular concept and associated with one or more deities.

[Ramza00]

Skips over all the responses and tries to guess the creator's intention.

The incarnate is trying to be a skill monkey that works differently than other skill monkeys, and then does light damage on top of it like a rogue does but via a different method or a party buffer like a bard does via a different method.

It kind of fails at both of these intentions but shrug ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Arcanist]

"Discovery" is a strong word—it's defined right there in the PHB glossary.


domain: A granted power and a set of nine divine spells (one each of 1st through 9th level) themed around a particular concept and associated with one or more deities.


Yes, these are all things the Catalogues of Enlightenment give you:



Base Ability: Choose a cleric domain; you gain the granted power of that domain.

Higher-Order Ability: Once per day, you may cast a spell from the cleric domain you have chosen, as though you had prepared the spell normally. You must be of sufficient character level to cast the spell and have a Wisdom equal to 10 + the spell’s level.

You have access to the granted power of that domain, and can cast the spells from it. So what exactly is the issue?

[Lans]

One thing to remember is the lucky dice soulmeld. It doesn't look like much but it adds to everything and the incarnate needs every point it can get.

I find it doesn't come up to snuff in anything, except being a soulknife. It's a better soulknife


It can be a subpar initiator with lightning gauntlets.

It can be about on par at a skill monkey.

[Ashtagon]

This is 3.5e. You don't pigeonhole classes into roles. You decide what role you want to be and choose which classes you want to support your decision.

Okay, let me rephrase the OP's question then.

What role might I choose where a playable optimisation choice would be twenty levels of incarnate?

[Troacctid]

Okay, let me rephrase the OP's question then.

What role might I choose where a playable optimisation choice would be twenty levels of incarnate?
Frontliner, minionmancer, fifth-wheel support.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Frontliner, minionmancer, fifth-wheel support.

Does the Incarnate's single (or maybe duo) Necrocarnum Zombie suffice for minonmancy?

[Segev]

Does the Incarnate's single (or maybe duo) Necrocarnum Zombie suffice for minonmancy?

Not in my opinion. Which is a pity, because necrocarnum zombies are some really good minions. But you're really just more of a pokemon master with a single pokemon if you go the Necrocarnum route.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Not in my opinion. Which is a pity, because necrocarnum zombies are some really good minions. But you're really just more of a pokemon master with a single pokemon if you go the Necrocarnum route.

I guess it's more akin to summoning. An expendable warm body on the field can be useful, even if you only have one or two of them.

[Troacctid]

Does the Incarnate's single (or maybe duo) Necrocarnum Zombie suffice for minonmancy?
A little bit, but remember you also get a soulspark familiar that scales in power as you level, and with some finagling, you can get actual familiars and/or animal companions and buff them up a ton with Share Soulmeld, which is a very powerful action economy feat.