Roguish Caster

[Maat Mons]

I'm currently playing in a Pathfinder game that the DM is thinking of converting to 5e. My character is a half-elf, charisma-based spellcaster, who can sneak and deal with traps. I'd like to look at possible 5e implementations of this same character, in case the DM goes through with it.

I've never played 5e. But my first thought was Rogue 1 / Sorcerer X, which does look like it could do the job. After learning how 5e multiclassing works, I was figuring I'd go for Sorecerer first, for proficiency with Constitution and Charisma saves.

However, I've stumbled upon the Prodigy feat, which the internet tells me can be found in Xanathar's Guide to Everything. As best I can tell (haven't got the book, but will buy if I wind up using), this can give me proficiency with Thieves' Tools.

If I understand 5e trapfinding correctly, having proficiency with Perception, Investigation, and Thieves' Tools looks to be enough to be a trapper.

We're currently 4th level in Pathfinder, so if the conversion happened right now, I think I could go Half-Elf Sorcerer (Shadow Magic) 4 with the Prodigy feat instead of an ability increase at 4th level.

The ability scores for my Pathfinder character are str 10, dex 10, con 14, int 13, wis 6 (don't ask), and cha 21 (18 base +2 racial +1 level). I'm not sure if I'd be given the opportunity to redistribute those.

I think the skills I'd go for in 5e would be Deception (sorc), Investigation (prodigy), Perception (helf), Persuasion (sorc), and Stealth (helf). Would that be a reasonable selection for a sneaky, talky, trapfinding kind of guy?

Is there a better way to do what I'm trying to do?

[CheddarChampion]

Have you considered playing a (College of Lore) Bard instead of a sorcerer?
I don't know if bards are underpowered in Pathfinder, but in 5e they're pretty good. You might get what you want with a single class bard and the prodigy feat, maybe with one level in rogue. Just say he's a scoundrel, not a magical musical guy.
Other than that, I'd imagine you'll end up redistributing stats because your charisma exceeds the soft cap of 20.
Additionally, you can't multiclass into rogue unless you have at least 13 dexterity (on top of 13 charisma for sorcerer/bard but that's not an issue).

[Griswold]

You won't need to take the Prodigy feat to get the proficiency with thieves' tools. You can get them from your background in 5E if you take the Criminal background (or just make a custom background). Since you're a half-elf, you already get two extra skills of your choice, so having Stealth, Perception, and Investigate should be easy to do (once again, especially if you make a custom background).

So I think you can pull of what you want to do with just pure Sorcerer, even without the Rogue level and feat!

The only downside from taking a level of Rogue first is that you don't get the expertise. But you can make up for that by learning the Enhance Ability spell to get advantage on Dexterity checks more or less at will. Or by going Celestial sorcerer and learning Guidance. Of course, the downside of taking a level of rogue is the loss in spell progression, sorcery points, and metamagic.

[Toadkiller]

This. ^^

I played a wizard with the “agent” background and made dex my secondary stat. Not the character you’re after, but an example that a primary caster can be rogueish easily enough. She was good enough to fill that role for the party. It is much easier to be good at things in 5e than Pathfinder.

Also look at Arcane Trickster of course* and as above Bard can be a a framework for what you are looking for as well.

*Int not Cha though.

[Greywander]

A good piece of advice for anyone coming from older editions of D&D (in which I would include Pathfinder) is to completely set aside anything you think you already know about the rules and approach 5e as if you were playing D&D for the first time. There are a lot of concepts that are similar enough to get you confused, but work differently in 5e, so make sure to read the rules thoroughly and not go based off of knowledge from older editions.

The other piece of advice would be to resist the urge to modify the rules and at least try a few sessions using the vanilla rules. 5e has its issues, and I love to homebrew, but you can't expect 5e to be like other editions. It's entirely possible that something that worked in Pathfinder won't work in 5e, because they are different systems. It's not that one or the other is better, but rather than each system has its own way of handling things that works best for that particular system. Trying to take a mechanic from one system and force it into a different system will only leave you playing a broken game that isn't fun. Once you're familiar with 5e, it will be much easier to homebrew new rules that work with the system, not against it.

Make sure to pass this advice on to your DM and the other players in your group. 5e is much more streamlined, so while it doesn't quite have the sheer magnitude of player options available that Pathfinder does, the game should hopefully run a bit quicker and let you spend more time having fun and less time doing math and consulting tables.

So, to answer your question, there are actually a lot of ways to do this! This is one of the great things about 5e.

You didn't really specify what exactly you were looking for, but there are a few things I can infer from your post. First of all, when you say "roguish", you seem to be referring specifically to trapfinding. To deal with traps effectively, you need a couple things:
Perception and/or Wisdom - To find the trap
Investigation and/or Intelligence - To understand how the trap works
Thieves' tools - To disarm the trap

Fortunately, you can get all of these as part of a background. Backgrounds give you proficiency in two skills, two tools OR languages, some equipment, and a ribbon feature. None of the listed backgrounds give you all of the things you're looking for, but you can make a custom background as long as you stay within the limitations laid out above: two skills, two tools/languages, one of the equipment packs from an existing background, and one of the features from an existing background.

As a half-elf, you also get two extra skill proficiencies to choose from, so you can use this to easily grab both Perception and Investigation. That only leaves Thieves' tools. Both the Criminal and Urchin backgrounds will get you Thieves' tools, plus a couple more roguish skills to supplement the ones you already have.

So there we are! A trapfinder extraordinaire! And we haven't even talked about classes yet. Now, if you did take a level of rogue, you would be able to get access to Expertise, but this isn't necessary to be able to perform a task well, and there are other ways to get Expertise, such as the Prodigy feat and the bard class.

Speaking of bards, less address the other half of your question. Fortunately, CHA casters are abundant in 5e, and you have your choice of bard, paladin, sorcerer, and warlock. Each one has a different spell list, and brings their own unique abilities to the table.

[TL;DR here:] So, bringing this all together, let's see what we can do.

Race: Half-elf (skills: Perception, Investigation)
Background : Criminal (skills: Deception, Stealth; tools: Thieves' tools, one gaming set)
Class: Shadow sorcerer 4 (skills: Persuasion, +1 more)

Ability scores: Note that ability scores in 5e should never get above 20 without using magic items or being a powerful monster like a dragon, and are hard capped at 30. As such, I'd port over your ability scores as-is, only changing your CHA to 20. Or you can use the point-buy system to rebuild them, in which case 15 is the highest you can raise an ability score to, but as a half-elf you get +2 to CHA and +1 to one other score of your choice.

Considering how low your Wisdom is, you might benefit from rebuilding your ability scores, or taking Prodigy to get Expertise in Perception. I might also recommend taking Insight as your other sorcerer skill, otherwise you're going to have an interesting time with social encounters.

[Maat Mons]

I don't know if bards are underpowered in Pathfinder, but in 5e they're pretty good.

I honestly never even looked at Pathfinder Bards. My opinion of them in 3.5 was pretty low, discounting builds that used both Sublime Chord and Virtuoso. I guess the 5e Bard looks like it kind of has that built in.

I guess I could consider Bard, but you'd really have to sell me on it. Bobby Angstmeister (yes, his real, in-game name) seems like about the last person who would be inspiring anyone. In fact, his Pathfinder incarnation is incapable of benefiting from morale bonuses, as a class ability. I don't know, maybe if there's a Bard variant that causes enemies to become depressed instead.

I'm kind of digging the Sorcerer angle, though.




You won't need to take the Prodigy feat to get the proficiency with thieves' tools. You can get them from your background in 5E if you take the Criminal background (or just make a custom background).

Ah, see, that's the kind of simple, straightforward solution that I'd have never come to on my own. It not only covers the thieves' tools, but two skills I was planning to take anyway. The only way it could be better is if traded the Gaming Set proficiency for another language known and that contact thing for something more suited to the character.

You see, the character is actually a half-drow spy who was sent to the surface on a secret mission. (Except the people who sent him on his "mission" hate him and just wanted him to get killed.) He pretends to have fled drow society because they treated him like crap. (Except they actually did treat him like crap, and he doesn't want to go back.)

Anyway, I could live without him knowing Drow Sign Language, and having a feature he'd never actually want to use. (Sending messages back to his contacts would let them know he's still alive, and that's just one step closer to actually finishing his mission and returning home. So why would he?)




I played a wizard with the “agent” background and made dex my secondary stat. Not the character you’re after, but an example that a primary caster can be rogueish easily enough. She was good enough to fill that role for the party. It is much easier to be good at things in 5e than Pathfinder.

So, if I do get to rearrange stats, would you recommend improving Dexterity?

I think I'd like to keep the 18 in Charisma, even if I'm free to change everything around. I also like the idea of keeping the 14 in Constitution. But, since I'd hit the cap on Charisma with just the base score and racial adjustments, I could use my 4th-level increase to bump the 13 up to 14 and put the spare point in... I don't know... Strength? Carrying capacity still improves even with odd-numbered Strength values right?

I think I could make due with the 6 (possibly bumped to 7) in Strength, given that I'd have access to Mage Armor.

Would 10 each in Intelligence and Wisdom be fine?




First of all, when you say "roguish", you seem to be referring specifically to trapfinding.

In 3.5, the system I'm most familiar with, my idea of "roguish" wold involve the Trapfinding ability, and the Bluff, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Search skills. So, dealing with traps, breaking and entering, finding things people want to keep hidden, and deception.

Pathfinder, which I've played only a few sessions of, mostly did away with the idea that you need a special ability to even attempt to deal with many traps. 5e seems to have done away with the idea completely. My Pathfinder character actually did use the Seeker archetype, which duplicated that editions version of Trapfinding (the ability to disarm magical traps and +1/2 class level to checks involving traps).




To deal with traps effectively, you need a couple things:
Perception and/or Wisdom - To find the trap
Investigation and/or Intelligence - To understand how the trap works
Thieves' tools - To disarm the trap

Thanks, it's nice to have this explicitly confirmed. And that also covers opening locks, finding hidden valuables, and not getting snuck up on, right?




Considering how low your Wisdom is ...

I'm hoping to be able to switch that into Strength. And maybe move the 13 from Intelligence into Dexterity, or something. The transition to 5e would largely be made to accommodate a player who is dissatisfied with the performance of his single-classed Paladin in Pathfinder, and partly because the DM thirsts for new and different game systems. I feel like being allowed to tweak some things wouldn't be an unreasonable compensation for going along with this.

I mean, I don't dislike the idea of transitioning to 5e. I would no longer be a spell level behind just because I wanted a charisma-based caster, for one thing. Also, when I created this character, I was torn on whether to implement him as an Oracle with the Shadow mystery and the Seeker archetype, or a Sorcerer with the Shadow bloodline and the Seeker archetype. I went with Oracle, but have found myself wishing I'd gone with Sorcerer.

But just because this will play out to my benefit either way, doesn't mean I'm not going to ask to be allowed to rejigger my scores.




I might also recommend taking Insight as your other sorcerer skill

That's a good point. Deception, Insight, and Persuasion look like they should cover the social side of what I consider "roguish."

[Jophiel]

I don't know, maybe if there's a Bard variant that causes enemies to become depressed instead.
There is exactly that for Lore bards:

Cutting Words

Also at 3rd level, you learn how to use your wit to distract, confuse, and otherwise sap the confidence and competence of others. When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll, you can use your reaction to expend one of your uses of Bardic Inspiration, rolling a Bardic Inspiration die and subtracting the number rolled from the creature’s roll. You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll or ability check succeeds or fails, or before the creature deals its damage. The creature is immune if it can’t hear you or if it’s immune to being charmed.
You're allowed to design your own backgrounds, either with the DM approval or (by strict Adventurers League rules) by picking a la carte from the various backgrounds. So you could take the Urchin tool proficiencies in Disguise Kit & Thieves tools and the Criminal's skills in Deception & Stealth and some other background's bonus feature and some other background's starting money/gear, etc as you please.

Technically, you pick two skills and then two total languages and/or tool proficiencies.

[DeTess]

I guess I could consider Bard, but you'd really have to sell me on it. Bobby Angstmeister (yes, his real, in-game name) seems like about the last person who would be inspiring anyone. In fact, his Pathfinder incarnation is incapable of benefiting from morale bonuses, as a class ability. I don't know, maybe if there's a Bard variant that causes enemies to become depressed instead.


Is Xanathar's guide to everything on the table (5e first party book). It contains a bardic subclass called the college of whispers. It's fairly roguish and has abilities tailored to either sneaking around or debuffing enemies through intimidation, and it gets to sue it's bardic inspiration die to get a speudo-sneak attack instead.

[Griswold]

Ah, see, that's the kind of simple, straightforward solution that I'd have never come to on my own. It not only covers the thieves' tools, but two skills I was planning to take anyway. The only way it could be better is if traded the Gaming Set proficiency for another language known and that contact thing for something more suited to the character.

You see, the character is actually a half-drow spy who was sent to the surface on a secret mission. (Except the people who sent him on his "mission" hate him and just wanted him to get killed.) He pretends to have fled drow society because they treated him like crap. (Except they actually did treat him like crap, and he doesn't want to go back.)

Anyway, I could live without him knowing Drow Sign Language, and having a feature he'd never actually want to use. (Sending messages back to his contacts would let them know he's still alive, and that's just one step closer to actually finishing his mission and returning home. So why would he?)


I'd recommend that you use the custom background rules! They're right in the PHB, and not even a variant rule, just a default. Trade out Gaming Set proficiency for DSL. And yeah, it sounds like Spy Contact feature from Criminal (Spy) is what you want.

[Lyracian]

I honestly never even looked at Pathfinder Bards. My opinion of them in 3.5 was pretty low,
I'm kind of digging the Sorcerer angle, though.

I never liked them in other editions either and had initial discounted them in 5 Ed. Having read up on them more I changed my mind and have started playing one. At the end of the day though it is your character and Sorcerer's can be fun too. You can get all the skills you want with backgrounds.

Class: Shadow sorcerer 4
Race: Half-elf skills: Perception, Investigation
Background : Criminal skills: Deception, Stealth; tools: Thieves' tools, one gaming set
You can also use the Custom background to change this around. My half-elf has Noble background and I change to give him disguise kit and he was brought up pretending to be a human.