Making use of Artificer's turrets

[Rukelnikov]

I'm trying to make the most of the Artificer's turrets, so in trying to cook up a build I noticed the following:

"Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the turret, at one creature or object within 120 feet of it. On a hit, the target takes 2d8 force damage, [...]"

The attack is made by you so for instance if you have advantage on attacks it would apply to them, Spell Sniper would allow to ignore cover, etc.

Basically you get 1 or 2 bonus action attacks that work not unlike most attack cantrips (at will, ranged spell attack, non-con)

This made me think its similar to a Sorcerer quickening cantrips, except you don't spend sorcery points. And at a glance it seems vastly inferior, how many combat rounds do you need for the "free quickenings" to compete? Obviously a lot, the typical Sorlock could quicken 9 in a single fight (assuming starting full sorcery points), and burn slots for an obscene amount more of rounds.

So is there no way to make this work?

[ProsecutorGodot]

My opinion of the Artificer as it's proposed is that it's not supposed to have terrific raw damage potential. I personally value the area control that Artillerist offers more than it's potential damage output (you cut out he best part, the fact that it pushes the target away, this allows shenanigans :smallamused:)

With that said though, Wand of the War Mage works for the turrets spell attack and there's no good reason for you not to have one. That's a start at least.

EDIT: I also just had the thought that a Loxodon should be able to carry it with its trunk, effectively functioning as a shield.

[Chronos]

Keep in mind, this is in addition to the two attacks you're making with a weapon that does an extra 1d6 elemental damage.

[stoutstien]

A small race could use it as mobile full cover? DM dependent but a cool image.
Is it a Valid target for the catapult spell?

[ProsecutorGodot]

A small race could use it as mobile full cover? DM dependent but a cool image.
Is it a Valid target for the catapult spell?

So many of these interesting ideas rely on the object having a defined weight, which the turret does not. I'd personally wager that it weights more than 5 lbs so at the very minimum a level 1 catapult wouldn't be enough.

RAF, however, I'd let it work.

[Rukelnikov]

My opinion of the Artificer as it's proposed is that it's not supposed to have terrific raw damage potential. I personally value the area control that Artillerist offers more than it's potential damage output (you cut out he best part, the fact that it pushes the target away, this allows shenanigans :smallamused:)

With that said though, Wand of the War Mage works for the turrets spell attack and there's no good reason for you not to have one. That's a start at least.

EDIT: I also just had the thought that a Loxodon should be able to carry it with its trunk, effectively functioning as a shield.

The WoWM works, but it would be the same for a sorcerer or warlock. It does occur to me now, that the artillerist is pretty close to the warlock damage wise, only behind the Sorlock, and there's no reason to compare it to the highest damage magical spammer. So its actually ok after all.

lvl6:
2d10+2d8+Int
2d10+2d6+2xCha

lvl11:
3d10+2d8+Int
3d10+3d6+3xCha

lvl14:
3d10+4d8+Int
3d10+3d6+3xCha

lvl17:
4d10+4d8+Int
4d10+4d6+4xCha

[stoutstien]

So many of these interesting ideas rely on the object having a defined weight, which the turret does not. I'd personally wager that it weights more than 5 lbs so at the very minimum a level 1 catapult wouldn't be enough.

RAF, however, I'd let it work.
it is strange that they gave a size and no weight. i'm guessing they wanted to keep it open for multiple kinds of fluffing. i think a few subclass specific infusions could help out. maybe an overdrive for turrets to increase speed or gain a small fly/swim/climb speed. a short range teleport or maybe a switch place ability with the artificer like the conjuration wizards feature.

[Damon_Tor]

The WoWM works, but it would be the same for a sorcerer or warlock. It does occur to me now, that the artillerist is pretty close to the warlock damage wise, only behind the Sorlock, and there's no reason to compare it to the highest damage magical spammer. So its actually ok after all.

lvl6:
2d10+2d8+Int
2d10+2d6+2xCha

lvl11:
3d10+2d8+Int
3d10+3d6+3xCha

lvl14:
3d10+4d8+Int
3d10+3d6+3xCha

lvl17:
4d10+4d8+Int
4d10+4d6+4xCha

Except:

The artificer has to spend the first two rounds of combat summoning his turrets. So -8d10+2xINT per combat. And -2d8 for the first round where it's only one turret firing
The warlock has something akin to a full caster progression, with level 5 spell slots at level 9 (instead of the artificer's 17), access to level 9 spells at level 17 (instead of never). They get spells like Scorching Ray at 3 instead of 5, Fireball at 5 instead of 9, etc.
The warlock can do things with its bonus action like launch Fireballs.
The warlock doesn't have to rely on the poor mobility of the turrets. If the enemy moves around a corner, he can follow. The turret can't dash, can't be the target of speed-boosting spells or friendly teleports. There are ways to mitigate this, but the point is, the warlock doesn't have to.


So don't pretend you're comparing apples to apples.

[Chronos]

How is a warlock launching fireballs as a bonus action?

[Damon_Tor]

How is a warlock launching fireballs as a bonus action?

It was an invocation, but it looks like it didn't make the cut in the final release for Xanathar's, so nix that, I stand corrected. Remaining points still stand.

[Temperjoke]

The turret can be used to get around the cover your enemies are using, for example, since you only have to be within 60 feet to control it. It's immune to all conditions, as well as poison damage, so a flamethrower turret can get close to things that would be dangerous for a PC to fight at melee range. Worst case scenario, you've got a bomb that you can have walk up to the enemy position.

[Damon_Tor]

The turret can be used to get around the cover your enemies are using, for example, since you only have to be within 60 feet to control it. It's immune to all conditions, as well as poison damage, so a flamethrower turret can get close to things that would be dangerous for a PC to fight at melee range. Worst case scenario, you've got a bomb that you can have walk up to the enemy position.

If they moved faster, sure, maybe. But they move at 15 feet per round and can't dash.

[Temperjoke]

If they moved faster, sure, maybe. But they move at 15 feet per round and can't dash.

I mean, I'm not saying it's a one-round solution to every problem. You need to think to apply it, and you need to be able to be patient.

Some things to think about. It's an object, which means that creatures, traps, and defenses that react to living things won't recognize it. It can't be poisoned, or turned to stone, or paralyzed, or charmed. Granted, you can, but if you're hidden under cover, you can still direct it. If you want it to cover a door while you fight at the other one, a flamethrower is a pretty nice way to deter people.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hmm...

Does the Force Ballista turret's attack count as one of YOUR attacks?

It says: "On each of your turns, you can take a bonus action to cause the turret to activate if you are within 60 feet of it."

Under the Activation portion for the Force Ballista: "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the turret, at one creature or object within 120 feet of it."

Which seems like it's describing the Artificer's attack from the turret, which may be relevant for certain buff spells or magic items.

[Damon_Tor]

Hmm...

Does the Force Ballista turret's attack count as one of YOUR attacks?

It says: "On each of your turns, you can take a bonus action to cause the turret to activate if you are within 60 feet of it."

Under the Activation portion for the Force Ballista: "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the turret, at one creature or object within 120 feet of it."

Which seems like it's describing the Artificer's attack from the turret, which may be relevant for certain buff spells or magic items.

Yes, the artificer attacks through the turret. It wouldn't make sense otherwise because the turret doesn't have stats or a save DC or anything else. This means an artificer that has access to Hex via Magic Initiate would get its bonus damage applied to the turret attacks.

[Aaramis]

Best scenerio I can see is allowing the turret to climb walls - which is somewhat ambiguous, anyways. If so, this could allow it to gain height / leverage to nullify an enemy's cover, and potentially even remove it from melee combat retaliation (in much the same way as the humonculus can).

But, as mentioned above, a lot of fights are very mobile, and the turret could very quickly and easily lose line of sight to an enemy.
It also doesn't have the best stats, so if an enemy knocks it prone, that could severely disable it too.

In short, the Artificer does what many expect it to do - be a jack of all trades, master of none.
The turret isn't an amazing dps tool, nor should it be. But hey, it's not horrible either.

[stoutstien]

Best scenerio I can see is allowing the turret to climb walls - which is somewhat ambiguous, anyways. If so, this could allow it to gain height / leverage to nullify an enemy's cover, and potentially even remove it from melee combat retaliation (in much the same way as the humonculus can).

But, as mentioned above, a lot of fights are very mobile, and the turret could very quickly and easily lose line of sight to an enemy.
It also doesn't have the best stats, so if an enemy knocks it prone, that could severely disable it too.

In short, the Artificer does what many expect it to do - be a jack of all trades, master of none.
The turret isn't an amazing dps tool, nor should it be. But hey, it's not horrible either.
Agreed besides they are immune to prone.

[Languid_Duck]

Hmm...

Does the Force Ballista turret's attack count as one of YOUR attacks?

It says: "On each of your turns, you can take a bonus action to cause the turret to activate if you are within 60 feet of it."

Under the Activation portion for the Force Ballista: "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the turret, at one creature or object within 120 feet of it."

Which seems like it's describing the Artificer's attack from the turret, which may be relevant for certain buff spells or magic items.

It counts as an attack from you, meaning it uses your spellcasting modifier for the attack. However, you trigger the turret attack only as a bonus action. Meaning you can take the attack action or cast a spell and then make the turret attack with your bonus action. Treat it like Spiritual Weapon; the attack isn't coming from you, so it doesn't benefit from having a +1 crossbow or Magic Weapon, but as a spell attack it would benefit from something like a Wand of the War Mage.