Comparing phb beast master and Hunter conclave

[Shuruke]

Hey so I'm not very good at the whole DPR calculation stuff

But looking at it when comparing hunter and beastmaster or atleast the 3 popular combat oriented beasts and hunter the numbers seem comparable

So for sake of a white room showdown

Panther
Wolf
Giant poisonous snake

And hunter conclave
Collussus
Horde breaker

Comparing
Archery
Dual wielding


And levels
3,5,9
Dex +3,+4,+5 at respective levels

Against AC 12,16,20
Save bonuses +2, +4,+6
Assuming
Long bow for hunter archer
Heavy crossbow for beast master

Short swords for dual wielding
No hunter mark


How would you go about factoring this

I wasnt sure how to calculate the 5% crit per hit when it comes to Collosus slayer dice

Or how to do the math of dpr for half of 3d6 on successful poison save

The numbers I got at level 3 showed the giant snake little less than 3 dpr higher on a a.c. 12 enemy and I wasnt sure if anyone else would get that


I'm mainly just looking at this for fun

I am not defending beastmaster as optimal class just trying to see what it can do when compared to hunter

I have played 2 beast masters one made it to 8th level
And the other I got to 15th character level but was a rogue ranger mix

Both times I had a re flavored eagle as pet and never used it for the actual attack action just its perception etc


I'm just seeing if anyone can help walk me through how to do this ^.^

U don't have to do all of it or any of it just links for where to find how to do it will help I just thought this could be interesting

[Rukelnikov]

Well, ill make the example of the lvl 3 giant poisonous snake beastmaster, against AC 12, Saves +2

Snake stats: Bite +8 (+6 +2 Prof), Damage 1d4+6 (1d4+4 base +2 prof), 8.5 avg

+8 vs AC 12 has 17/20 chance to hit, so its:

3/20 * 0 damage

17/20 * 8.5 + Rider

Rider is 3d6 damage Con save DC 11 for half, with a +2 on saves a given enemy has 12/20 chance to save:

8/20 * 10.5 damage
12/20 * 1/2 * 10.5 damage

So avg Rider damage becomes: 10.5 * (8/20 + 12/20 * 1/2) = 10.5 * (14/20 7/10) = 7.35

Now we go back:

17/20 * 8.5 + 7.35 = 17/20 * 15.85 = 13.4725

[bid]

I wasnt sure how to calculate the 5% crit per hit when it comes to Colossus slayer dice
Assuming you hit on 8+ = 13/20:
Normal longbow hit: 1d8+5 * 13/20 ~ 6.175
Extra longbow crit: 1d8 * 1/20 ~ 0.225

Colossus longbow doesn't hit: (1 - 13/20) ~ 7/20
Colossus longbow doesn't hit the first time nor the second time: 7/20 * 7/20 ~ 0.1225
Colossus longbow hits at least once: 1 - 0.1225 ~ 0.8775
Colossus hit is a crit: (1/20) / (13/20) = 1 / 13 ~ 0.077
Normal colossus hit: 1d8 * 0.8775 ~ 3.95
Extra colossus crit: 3.95 * .077 ~ 0.30



17/20 * (8.5 + 7.35) = 17/20 * 15.85 = 13.4725
Added the parenthesis just for the sake of clarity.

[Rukelnikov]

Normal longbow hit: 1d8+5 * 13/20 ~ 6.175
Extra longbow crit: 1d8 * 1/20 ~ 0.225

Colossus longbow doesn't hit: (1 - 13/20) ~ 7/20
Colossus longbow doesn't hit the first time nor the second time: 7/20 * 7/20 ~ 0.1225
Colossus longbow hits at least once: 1 - 0.1225 ~ 0.8775
Colossus hit is a crit: (1/20) / (13/20) = 1 / 13 ~ 0.077
Normal colossus hit: 1d8 * 0.8775 ~ 3.95
Extra colossus crit: 3.95 * .077 ~ 0.30



Added the parenthesis just for the sake of clarity.

Yeah, forgot em, also forgot to calc crits :P

[Shuruke]

Well, ill make the example of the lvl 3 giant poisonous snake beastmaster, against AC 12, Saves +2

Snake stats: Bite +8 (+6 +2 Prof), Damage 1d4+6 (1d4+4 base +2 prof), 8.5 avg

+8 vs AC 12 has 17/20 chance to hit, so its:

3/20 * 0 damage

17/20 * 8.5 + Rider

Rider is 3d6 damage Con save DC 11 for half, with a +2 on saves a given enemy has 12/20 chance to save:

8/20 * 10.5 damage
12/20 * 1/2 * 10.5 damage

So avg Rider damage becomes: 10.5 * (8/20 + 12/20 * 1/2) = 10.5 * (14/20 7/10) = 7.35

Now we go back:

17/20 * 8.5 + 7.35 = 17/20 * 15.85 = 13.4725

Ok I see it now and you'd also do that for save 1/2 spells to
Got it

[bid]

Yeah, forgot em, also forgot to calc crits :P
Yeah, it's easy to forget the "decorative" 1d4 extra damage. :smallbiggrin:

[Shuruke]

Normal longbow hit: 1d8+5 * 13/20 ~ 6.175
Extra longbow crit: 1d8 * 1/20 ~ 0.225

Colossus longbow doesn't hit: (1 - 13/20) ~ 7/20
Colossus longbow doesn't hit the first time nor the second time: 7/20 * 7/20 ~ 0.1225
Colossus longbow hits at least once: 1 - 0.1225 ~ 0.8775
Colossus hit is a crit: (1/20) / (13/20) = 1 / 13 ~ 0.077
Normal colossus hit: 1d8 * 0.8775 ~ 3.95
Extra colossus crit: 3.95 * .077 ~ 0.30



Added the parenthesis just for the sake of clarity.




Ok so for the Collosus you have to factor
The chance only one attack hits
Chance no attack hits

And chance one of the ome of.two attacks crit?


Sorry just seems like a very complicated formula because way ability works I might be making it harder but for short

I tried finding likely hood of first critting and used that

And then likelyhood of first missing followed by second critting

And likely hood of both missing


Multiply those into the dpr of Collosus slayer average damage of 4.5
The crits would add to 4.5
And likelihood of both misses subtract from the 4.5+c if c is dpr crits?

[bid]

I tried finding likely hood of first critting and used that
Always 1/20


And then likelyhood of first missing followed by second critting
Miss and crit is 7/20 * 1/20 ~ 0.0175

So colossus crit chance is 0.05 + 0.0175 = 0.0675
Times 1d8 ~ 0.30375

General solution is 4.5 * (miss/20 + 1)/20 where miss is 7 "dice faces" or so.


Yeah, that might be an easier way to get the same result.
But for the colossus hit, nothing is easier than 4.5 * (1 - 13/20)^2.

[Shuruke]

Mk so numbers are looking similiar
I got 13.945 when I did giant poisonous snake
When I did dual wielding for Collosus slayer o was thrown off tho

1d6+3 (6.5)
+5 hit or 14/20 60%
Twice
.05 crit

I get confused a little here
U factor (6.5*.6)+(10*.05)
For 4.4 per hit?
Meaning 8.8 dpr not counting Collosus

Collosus 1d8
Factored into the .05 first crits
Followed by factoring first attack miss 40% and second attack crit .05?
For
(9*.05)+((9*.05)*.4)
And factor both attacks missing? Which I'm just lost at

However
5.13 collusus slayer ?

So 8.8+5.13 for 13.93 looks like higher then the snake correct?

I'm not worried bout it dealing more dpr than the hunter

But I think with utility it gives could make up for a 1 or 2 drop in dpr


Idk what do u guys think from math so far ?

And what did I do wrong I know I missed something

[Shuruke]

Always 1/20


Miss and crit is 7/20 * 1/20 ~ 0.0175

So colossus crit chance is 0.05 + 0.0175 = 0.0675
Times 1d8 ~ 0.30375

General solution is 4.5 * (miss/20 + 1)/20 where miss is 7 "dice faces" or so.


Yeah, that might be an easier way to get the same result.
But for the colossus hit, nothing is easier than 4.5 * (1 - 13/20)^2.

Ok cool!! That makes alot more sense ill put that down in the notes I'm trying to jot down from this