Is Xykon the most powerful individual in the world's history?

[Sniccups]

Epic-level characters are very rare in OOTS. We've been introduced to exactly 10 so far (Xykon, V's three Soul Splices, and of course the Order of the Scribble) and it seems safe to assume that this is a significant portion of all the epic characters ever, considering that the world is only 1100 or so years old. (The Dark One, when he was mortal, seems like another possible candidate.)

On top of that, it seems very unlikely that anyone has ever made it past 24th or so level, considering that in #652 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) Xykon takes all the epic levels from "two of the most powerful souls ever damned to the Lower Planes" with a single Energy Drain. Xykon is presumably 22nd level or so, judging by his comment in the third panel of #442 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), but he is also a lich, which gives him an extreme level of power unlike that of being higher level, as brutally demonstrated and narrated in #657 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html).

So here's my question. Do you think that there has ever been a (mortal) character in the history of the Stickverse who was more powerful than Xykon?

[Caerulea]

Soon? He did defeat Xykon.

—Caerulea

[Fyraltari]

Haerta had a genocide spell. Xykon doesn’t. ‘nuff said.

[tomandtish]

It's hard to tell, and in some cases we may end up comparing apples to oranges. All members of the order of the Scribble were epic (exact levels unknown), so we don't know how they compare.

Energy Drain is also an interesting spell, because it's a very powerful one that does not allow an initial saving throw. If cast on someone without protection (Death Ward for instance), it IS going to drain 2d4 levels. And they are gone for 24 hours without magical intervention.

So the soul splice that lost all the epic spells? Could be 28th level and lost them all from one energy drain.

Important to note (as Xykon does) that V wasn't really an epic character. He had access to epic spells, but was otherwise himself, including poor planning on his spell prep (no death ward).

it's a safe bet that there are (or were ) more powerful mortals. And they will probably play no role in events to come.

[thereaper]

I suspect that the soul spliced individuals may not have been from this world. It would explain their lack of presence in the history books (one of them was said to have conquered multiple planes, for example).

Xykon may well be higher level than Soon. Soon's ghost had a template that the living Soon did not, and Xykon's spell list was clearly not well suited to fighting Soon. But then, we also have to consider the Silver Dragon. Then again, given Redcloak's claims that Xykon occasionally disappears and returns with a new trick, it seems likely that Xykon has leveled at least once or twice since then (to say nothing of how many magic items he has likely accumulated since then, since the Silver Dragon event occurred after Xykon fled the Dungeon of Dorukan).

[understatement]

As of this moment, probably.

Had it been on better days, Dorukan, Lirian, Haerta, Ganonron, Jephton, Soon, maybe Aarindarius could probably give him a run for his money.

[hroþila]

Literally no way of knowing and not really anything worthwhile to speculate upon.

One important correction, though: the world is older than 1184 years. That's just the years since the foundation of That Kingdom.

[RatElemental]

I think Dvalin and the elven gods might be the most powerful figures in this world's history, if you don't count the gods the preexisted it for some reason.

[grandpheonix]

I dont remember a silver dragon? I remember a black dragon.

[understatement]

Out of curiosity, if this world has records of epic sorcerers, wizards, druids, paladins, rogues, barbarians, sorcerer/rangers --

-- then why are there not any epic (plot-relevant or mentioned) clerics?

(RC's probably the highest with 9th-level spells -- the only other person documented that has even cast 8ths is Greg)

[Fyraltari]

I dont remember a silver dragon? I remember a black dragon.

I think there’s a bonus strip where Xykon kills the dragon he rides to battle in Azure City.

[MReav]

I think there’s a bonus strip where Xykon kills the dragon he rides to battle in Azure City.

He didn't actually kill it. He didn't even breach its SR. Redcloak and Shelby the Dragonslayer did more with a summon and a x3 Critical to the Jugular.

Shelby was summarily executed for showing up his bosses.

[hamishspence]

I think there’s a bonus strip where Xykon kills the dragon he rides to battle in Azure City.
Sort of.

The silver dragon appears to have Xykon and Redcloak on the ropes before one of the hobgoblins (Shelby) kills the dragon with a lucky critical hit.

He is promptly killed for now being overqualified for the position of Random Mook.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[tomandtish]

Out of curiosity, if this world has records of epic sorcerers, wizards, druids, paladins, rogues, barbarians, sorcerer/rangers --

-- then why are there not any epic (plot-relevant or mentioned) clerics?

(RC's probably the highest with 9th-level spells -- the only other person documented that has even cast 8ths is Greg)

Remember, absence of proof is not proof of absence. There may very well be (and probably are) epic level clerics. But as you said, none of them have been plot relevant, so we don't see or hear about them.

Order of the Scribble was probably designed based on the needs required to guard the gates. one hides behind illusions, so Rich made them an epic illusionist. One guarded by nature, so an epic druid, etc.

[Morty]

It might be that there really haven't been any epic-level clerics, because no cleric has ever gained enough levels to be epic. Sometimes it's that simple.

[Kish]

Lirian had a spell that permanently removed the spellcasting abilities of all hostile living spellcasters who approached her Gate, with selective targeting. Dorukan invented a spell that blocked all non-epic teleportation or scrying in an entire city. And both were explicitly described as "low-epic" by Rich.

I wouldn't read too much into Familicide. Haerta was (explicitly) a good deal more powerful than Ganonron or Jephton; how she would compare to Xykon is up in the air.

[Liquor Box]

Hazeta had a genocide spell. Xykon doesn’t. ‘nuff said.

Xykon is a sorcerer, which means he has a limited number of spells known per level - if he had taken a genocide spell he would have had to forgo another spell (perhaps his only other spell of that level). If Hazeta was a wizard she is not limited in the same way. TLDR: because Xykon is a sorcerer, not a wizard, it is entirely plausible that he'd be higher level that Hazeta but not have a spell Hazeta has.


In answer to the original question, Monster in the Dark is potentially more powerful than Xykon. Whether he (or anyone else) actually is, I don't know.

[Lacuna Caster]

Xykon is a sorcerer, which means he has a limited number of spells known per level - if he had taken a genocide spell he would have had to forgo another spell (perhaps his only other spell of that level). If Hazeta was a wizard she is not limited in the same way. TLDR: because Xykon is a sorcerer, not a wizard, it is entirely plausible that he'd be higher level that Hazeta but not have a spell Hazeta has.
Why do you keep saying 'Hazeta'? It's 'Haerta' IIRC.

[NerdyKris]

Literally no way of knowing and not really anything worthwhile to speculate upon.

One important correction, though: the world is older than 1184 years. That's just the years since the foundation of That Kingdom.

I thought he explicitly stated otherwise somewhere, but the thread I'm remembering only implies a short time line for the world.



Wouldn't that spell kill everyone of the original target's species?
In our world? Maybe. The OOTS world is not ours, though. It was created fully populated, even with black dragons. So there could be 100 original black dragons who (as V noted) breed slowly over the relatively-short span of time the current world has been in existence, leading to one-quarter of them being wiped out. If it had been cast on a human first, it may well have taken half or more of the population with it, depending on how many Original Humans there had been and how much interbreeding had occurred. Good thing that's not what happened, right?

[woweedd]

I suspect that the soul spliced individuals may not have been from this world. It would explain their lack of presence in the history books (one of them was said to have conquered multiple planes, for example).

Xykon may well be higher level than Soon. Soon's ghost had a template that the living Soon did not, and Xykon's spell list was clearly not well suited to fighting Soon. But then, we also have to consider the Silver Dragon. Then again, given Redcloak's claims that Xykon occasionally disappears and returns with a new trick, it seems likely that Xykon has leveled at least once or twice since then (to say nothing of how many magic items he has likely accumulated since then, since the Silver Dragon event occurred after Xykon fled the Dungeon of Dorukan).
Just because they haven't been mentioned since doesn't mean they're not IN history.


As of this moment, probably.

Had it been on better days, Dorukan, Lirian, Haerta, Ganonron, Jephton, Soon, maybe Aarindarius could probably give him a run for his money.
I doubt Aarindarius could, myself.

[understatement]

I doubt Aarindarius could, myself.

I thought he was epic? He'll at least put up a good fight.

[Aka-chan]

Could any of the high priests we saw at the Godsmoot potentially be epic?

[The MunchKING]

I dont remember a silver dragon? I remember a black dragon.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) is the strip online that shows it.

[Kish]

I thought he was epic? He'll at least put up a good fight.
Aarindarius' level was never stated. One of the fiends, rushing an explicitly ridiculous alternate plan past the trance-deprived and borderline-insane Vaarsuvius, suggested that he could intercede against the black dragon, with an image of him killing her without ever looking up from his book. From where I'm standing, that's not a reason to conclude his level is actually even in two digits--just that Vaarsuvius' instinctive emotional association for his old master is "more powerful than me."

[Jasdoif]

Aarindarius' level was never stated. One of the fiends, rushing an explicitly ridiculous alternate plan past the trance-deprived and borderline-insane Vaarsuvius, suggested that he could intercede against the black dragon, with an image of him killing her without ever looking up from his book. From where I'm standing, that's not a reason to conclude his level is actually even in two digits--just that Vaarsuvius' instinctive emotional association for his old master is "more powerful than me."Or more directly:




Is Aarindarius indeed an epic-level wizard who could kill an ancient black dragon without bothering to look at her, or was that the fiends deceiving Vaarsuvius?Hyperbole on the part of the illustration; it's a callback joke to the panel in #630 where he kills Qarr without looking. The fiends never actually made any claims other than that he could "intercede."

Could he actually have interceded in any meaningful way, or was that just something the fiends counted on Vaarsuvius not questioning, like Durkon being at the fleet and having a scroll of Sending? I have no idea. Clearly, V thought it was at least plausible. That's all that really matters.

[Lacuna Caster]

Aarindarius' level was never stated. One of the fiends, rushing an explicitly ridiculous alternate plan past the trance-deprived and borderline-insane Vaarsuvius, suggested that he could intercede against the black dragon, with an image of him killing her without ever looking up from his book. From where I'm standing, that's not a reason to conclude his level is actually even in two digits--just that Vaarsuvius' instinctive emotional association for his old master is "more powerful than me."
The plan itself is not explicitly ridiculous. What is explicitly ridiculous is that the fiends could have formulated this plan spontaneously without a good deal of advance research on V, who is too tired to notice that.

[Ruck]

Literally no way of knowing and not really anything worthwhile to speculate upon.

One important correction, though: the world is older than 1184 years. That's just the years since the foundation of That Kingdom.


I thought he explicitly stated otherwise somewhere, but the thread I'm remembering only implies a short time line for the world.

I am pretty sure that, in fact, what hroþila is saying is canon, although I can't remember where the information is. (Could be it's in some of the fluff / extra content in one of the print books.)

[woweedd]

Could any of the high priests we saw at the Godsmoot potentially be epic?
I'd guess that the highest-level among them is 14th-level or so. Past that..>Well, elt's just sya i'd be highly-shocked if Durkon isn't, at this moment, the highest-level Cleric in the world.

[Ruck]

I'd guess that the highest-level among them is 14th-level or so. Past that..>Well, elt's just sya i'd be highly-shocked if Durkon isn't, at this moment, the highest-level Cleric in the world.

Redcloak is definitely higher level.

[hamishspence]

I am pretty sure that, in fact, what hroþila is saying is canon, although I can't remember where the information is. (Could be it's in some of the fluff / extra content in one of the print books.)

Or the digital versions.


Bonus material from Don't Split the Party's digital edition establishes that Year 1 was the year when That Kingdom was founded in the Northern Lands. So the world is probably older than that.

[RatElemental]

Xykon is a sorcerer, which means he has a limited number of spells known per level - if he had taken a genocide spell he would have had to forgo another spell (perhaps his only other spell of that level). If Hazeta was a wizard she is not limited in the same way. TLDR: because Xykon is a sorcerer, not a wizard, it is entirely plausible that he'd be higher level that Hazeta but not have a spell Hazeta has.


In answer to the original question, Monster in the Dark is potentially more powerful than Xykon. Whether he (or anyone else) actually is, I don't know.

Epic spellcasting works differently. Epic spells must be individually researched (unless the original creator made a stone tablet containing the spell) and there is no limit to the number you can know if you can cast them even if you're a sorcerer or other such usually limited class. You're also not limited in daily usage by level: You can cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in knowledge (arcana) divinded by 10 if you're an arcane caster, or equal to your ranks in knowledge (nature) or knowledge (religion) if you're a divine caster.

[Fyraltari]

Why do you keep saying 'Hazeta'? It's 'Haerta' IIRC.

Because I made a typo in the post they were replying to and they assumed I got it right.

[Zenzis]

Aarindarius' level was never stated. One of the fiends, rushing an explicitly ridiculous alternate plan past the trance-deprived and borderline-insane Vaarsuvius, suggested that he could intercede against the black dragon, with an image of him killing her without ever looking up from his book. From where I'm standing, that's not a reason to conclude his level is actually even in two digits--just that Vaarsuvius' instinctive emotional association for his old master is "more powerful than me."

A lot of people say this, and I always found it a bit odd. Maybe in our world it would be true, but V and A are in a profession where measuring ability is very straightforward. Even in the emotional moment I think V would be able to have a good idea of how powerful of a wizard A is. Have they cast 3rd level spells? 9th level? Epic? I'm sure they have thought about it before at least once. While they might not really know how the fight would go, I think even in that moment they would have been able to accurately predict whether A would at least have a chance against a ancient black dragon.


I'd guess that the highest-level among them is 14th-level or so. Past that..>Well, elt's just sya i'd be highly-shocked if Durkon isn't, at this moment, the highest-level Cleric in the world.

Aside from Redcloak who was already stated, Hilgya may be higher level, especially after those raise dead level drains. Durkon also says in this flashback (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html) that the High Priest of Odin would have been able to bring back his Pa, which I think would require a True Resurrection? (I can't remember, I vaguely think they had his beard. It would at least take a regular Resurrection I really need to index Durkon flashback scenes. They are the hardest thing to find when I go looking for them.)

As for the OP question, I would put the ancient black dragon into the running. Being an ancient black dragon makes it incredibly powerful, plus it is able to cast at least three sorcerer levels higher than a normal ABD. Of course souped up V would also be in the running. It depends on how you measure power I guess.

[Fyraltari]

As for the OP question, I would put the ancient black dragon into the running. Being an ancient black dragon makes it incredibly powerful, plus it is able to cast at least three sorcerer levels higher than a normal ABD. Of course souped up V would also be in the running. It depends on how you measure power I guess.

:xykon: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) Power, it isn't something you put on or take off like a jacket. It's something that you just ARE. If you can lose it just by blowing two Will saves, you never had any power in the first place, see what I'm saying?

[woweedd]

A lot of people say this, and I always found it a bit odd. Maybe in our world it would be true, but V and A are in a profession where measuring ability is very straightforward. Even in the emotional moment I think V would be able to have a good idea of how powerful of a wizard A is. Have they cast 3rd level spells? 9th level? Epic? I'm sure they have thought about it before at least once. While they might not really know how the fight would go, I think even in that moment they would have been able to accurately predict whether A would at least have a chance against a ancient black dragon.



Aside from Redcloak who was already stated, Hilgya may be higher level, especially after those raise dead level drains. Durkon also says in this flashback (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html) that the High Priest of Odin would have been able to bring back his Pa, which I think would require a True Resurrection? (I can't remember, I vaguely think they had his beard. It would at least take a regular Resurrection I really need to index Durkon flashback scenes. They are the hardest thing to find when I go looking for them.)

As for the OP question, I would put the ancient black dragon into the running. Being an ancient black dragon makes it incredibly powerful, plus it is able to cast at least three sorcerer levels higher than a normal ABD. Of course souped up V would also be in the running. It depends on how you measure power I guess.
BV was also near-catatonic from Trance Deprivation, and hysterical form the fact that, ya know, their children were about to be murdered. I could easily see them not thinking clearly. That said, yeah, fair point about Dukon. I'd still peg him as probably being higher-level then the High Priests. Plus, of course, while the ABD was powerful,a s was Soul-Pslice V, SSV still wasn't strong enough to defeat Xykon, and the ABD fell pretty easily to the Soul Splices, overall. I highly doubt she was even Low-Epic. Also, does OSul-Splice V count as an 'individual", since they're technically just 3 Epic-level spellcasters shackled to an Elf?

[Sniccups]

BV was also near-catatonic from Trance Deprivation, and hysterical form the fact that, ya know, their children were about to be murdered. I could easily see them not thinking clearly. That said, yeah, fair point about Dukon. I'd still peg him as probably being higher-level then the High Priests. Plus, of course, while the ABD was powerful,a s was Soul-Pslice V, SSV still wasn't strong enough to defeat Xykon, and the ABD fell pretty easily to the Soul Splices, overall. I highly doubt she was even Low-Epic. Also, does OSul-Splice V count as an 'individual", since they're technically just 3 Epic-level spellcasters shackled to an Elf?

That's what I was thinking.


Lirian had a spell that permanently removed the spellcasting abilities of all hostile living spellcasters who approached her Gate, with selective targeting

I always assumed that the Guardian Virus was a product of extended magical experiments rather than a single epic spell.


I suspect that the soul spliced individuals may not have been from this world. It would explain their lack of presence in the history books (one of them was said to have conquered multiple planes, for example).

I never even thought of that! I always just assumed that anything mentioned to have stats or a level was from this particular world, since Thor explicitly mentioned that "self-aware parody" was part of the original idea for this world.

[Kish]

I always assumed that the Guardian Virus was a product of extended magical experiments rather than a single epic spell.
That amounts to, "I always assumed that D&D rules didn't cover that whole scenario at all and that Lirian somehow had something even more powerful than whatever unspecified epic spells she could cast." Which isn't invalid (Soon's defense, the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard including himself, was both powerful enough to destroy Xykon and clearly not an epic spell) but renders the thread-starting question effectively unanswerable.

[KorvinStarmast]

That amounts to, "I always assumed that D&D rules didn't cover that whole scenario at all and that Lirian somehow had something even more powerful than whatever unspecified epic spells she could cast." Which isn't invalid (Soon's defense, the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard including himself, was both powerful enough to destroy Xykon and clearly not an epic spell) but renders the thread-starting question effectively unanswerable. The question is unanswerable based on the readers not having the world's whole history available as a reference.

It was dead in the water as asked unless either the Giant had made a comment along those lines that was captured in a post, or unless someone can read Rich's mind.

[Sniccups]

That amounts to, "I always assumed that D&D rules didn't cover that whole scenario at all and that Lirian somehow had something even more powerful than whatever unspecified epic spells she could cast." Which isn't invalid (Soon's defense, the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard including himself, was both powerful enough to destroy Xykon and clearly not an epic spell) but renders the thread-starting question effectively unanswerable.

What I meant is, aren't there always stories of things being experimented on by spellcasters in the fluff? I remember from the Monster Manual that owlbears likely were products of a magical experiment. There isn't (and, to the best of my knowledge, has never been) a spell to do things like that, but that style of thing has been mentioned in the fluff countless times.

[Kish]

The question is, are you assuming that the spellcaster or spellcasters who created owlbears thus did something more powerful than they could have done with their spells? Whether they did it by inventing a new spell (using the rules for developing new spells in the DMG) or some other method?

If not, then it remains that "owlbears were created by a spellcaster or spellcasters powerful enough to create owlbears" is a valid construction. And similarly, even if you say that what Lirian did in the spoiler wasn't an epic spell...it was done by a druid powerful enough to do it, and thus establishes Lirian's magical might.

[Clistenes]

Vaarsuvius thought their master could one-shot an epic Mature Adult (maybe older) Black Dragon with at least 11 levels of Sorcerer... That is supposed to be around CR 25 (probably lower in actual play...).

But still, a guy able to absent-mindlessly one-shot an epic dragon without bothering to stop reading his book (a dragon who can cast Antimagic Field, mind you), seems freakingly powerful to me... Powerful enough to go toe to toe against Xykon, probably.

Also, remember the fight with Dorukan... Had Dorukan protected himself against Level Drain, he may have won...

[Kish]

It was spelled out, she was an ancient black dragon. I think it considerably more likely that she had 2-3 levels of sorcerer which Rich ruled stacked with her natural spellcasting rather than overlapping it than that she separately had 11 levels of sorcerer.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Vaarsuvius thought their master could one-shot an epic Mature Adult (maybe older) Black Dragon with at least 11 levels of Sorcerer... That is supposed to be around CR 25 (probably lower in actual play...).

Again, as per the quotes from Rich last page: "one shot" is hyperbole. And what V is willing to believe in less-than-fresh state and what is real can be a considerable distance apart.

Grey Wolf

[Emanick]

I always assumed that the Guardian Virus was a product of extended magical experiments rather than a single epic spell.

For what it's worth, I always assumed that the Guardian Virus was a naturally occurring virus rather than the creation of a spell at all (rather analogous to the ysalamiri in Timothy Zahn's Star Wars books), and that Lirian had merely obtained and transported the virus to the site of the Gate, rather than creating it herself. It never occurred to me to think that Lirian might have "invented" or created the virus somehow.

I might be wrong, of course. Even more likely is the possibility that Rich never bothered to come up with an origin story for the virus, and we're all equally wrong/right.

[Sniccups]

The question is, are you assuming that the spellcaster or spellcasters who created owlbears thus did something more powerful than they could have done with their spells? Whether they did it by inventing a new spell (using the rules for developing new spells in the DMG) or some other method?

If not, then it remains that "owlbears were created by a spellcaster or spellcasters powerful enough to create owlbears" is a valid construction. And similarly, even if you say that what Lirian did in the spoiler wasn't an epic spell...it was done by a druid powerful enough to do it, and thus establishes Lirian's magical might.

I guess what I was imagining is a number of repeated castings of 9th level or epic spells, kind of like crafting a magic item.

[woweedd]

I guess what I was imagining is a number of repeated castings of 9th level or epic spells, kind of like crafting a magic item.

I mean, does it really matter?

[Ruck]

For what it's worth, I always assumed that the Guardian Virus was a naturally occurring virus rather than the creation of a spell at all (rather analogous to the ysalamiri in Timothy Zahn's Star Wars books), and that Lirian had merely obtained and transported the virus to the site of the Gate, rather than creating it herself. It never occurred to me to think that Lirian might have "invented" or created the virus somehow.

I might be wrong, of course. Even more likely is the possibility that Rich never bothered to come up with an origin story for the virus, and we're all equally wrong/right.

Lirian describes the Guardian Virus as "an airborne hybrid of several naturally-occurring diseases infused with druidic magic." I'd say that strongly implies that she was responsible for creating it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Lirian describes the Guardian Virus as "an airborne hybrid of several naturally-occurring diseases infused with druidic magic." I'd say that strongly implies that she was responsible for creating it.

The impersonal phrasing suggests she got it from other druids, to me. Possibly a cabal of them, "closely guarded secret" kind of thing.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

The impersonal phrasing suggests she got it from other druids, to me. Possibly a cabal of them, "closely guarded secret" kind of thing.

Grey Wolf

You may be right-- it's facts that Lirian herself is a druid and has something of vital importance to protect, that makes me think she is at least involved. And the combination of the (presumed) difficulty of creating such a thing with the fact that we haven't seen any other epic-level druids (I'm not even sure we've seen any at all save Leeky Windstaff), made me first think it was her own creation.

[Ionathus]

The impersonal phrasing suggests she got it from other druids, to me. Possibly a cabal of them, "closely guarded secret" kind of thing.

Grey Wolf

Given that Lirian is explicitly Low-Epic, takes responsibility for defending the Gate, and identifies the Guardian Virus as a defense for the Gate, I see "Lirian used Epic Magic to create/refine the Guardian Virus" a far more likely scenario than "Lirian got the Guardian Virus from other no-name druids who aren't related to the plot."

[skaddix]

The plan itself is not explicitly ridiculous. What is explicitly ridiculous is that the fiends could have formulated this plan spontaneously without a good deal of advance research on V, who is too tired to notice that.

Yeah the point is the plan has to be legit. V is not so far out of it that V doesn't know if her master could win. The plan honestly relies on that being true since the whole point is the Fiends give V an alternate plan that would actually work. V missed the fact they were lying about waiting for the next caller.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah the point is the plan has to be legit. V is not so far out of it that V doesn't know if her master could win. The plan honestly relies on that being true since the whole point is the Fiends give V an alternate plan that would actually work. V missed the fact they were lying about waiting for the next caller.

No, the plan has to seem legit. It is, however, not: being lawful doesn't mean that Qarr is ready to commit suicide because he offered V his help and Durkon had left the fleet already, so that's two ways that plan doesn't hold up already. While it's likely that V isn't completely off the mark when they picture Aarindarius beating the dragon, I think it's safe to discard the ease that is portrayed as a joke.

[woweedd]

Yeah the point is the plan has to be legit. V is not so far out of it that V doesn't know if her master could win. The plan honestly relies on that being true since the whole point is the Fiends give V an alternate plan that would actually work. V missed the fact they were lying about waiting for the next caller.
No, the whole point is that the plan had to seem like it'd work, to V's very-much-not-right-minded state. The idea was to shift V's motives. Taking a demonic/devilish/daemonic deal to save your family is a morally ambiguous act, taking it to save your own ego is not.

[Peelee]

Yeah the point is the plan has to be legit. V is not so far out of it that V doesn't know if her master could win. The plan honestly relies on that being true since the whole point is the Fiends give V an alternate plan that would actually work. V missed the fact they were lying about waiting for the next caller.

But it's not legit. V missed a lot more than that, he also missed that Qarr would not necessity be bound to take V's head to the fleet, and he missed that Resurrection has a ten minute casting time (this is even specifically brought up later). The plan only had to seem legit, so whatever V thought, however questionable (eg Resurrection is instantaneous, Qarr will deliver his head, Aarindarius could easily defeat the dragon), he would still choose selfishly.

[tomandtish]

Vaarsuvius thought their master could one-shot an epic Mature Adult (maybe older) Black Dragon with at least 11 levels of Sorcerer... That is supposed to be around CR 25 (probably lower in actual play...).

But still, a guy able to absent-mindlessly one-shot an epic dragon without bothering to stop reading his book (a dragon who can cast Antimagic Field, mind you), seems freakingly powerful to me... Powerful enough to go toe to toe against Xykon, probably.

Also, remember the fight with Dorukan... Had Dorukan protected himself against Level Drain, he may have won...


Yeah the point is the plan has to be legit. V is not so far out of it that V doesn't know if her master could win. The plan honestly relies on that being true since the whole point is the Fiends give V an alternate plan that would actually work. V missed the fact they were lying about waiting for the next caller.

Actually, V never indicates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html) he thinks his master could one-shot the dragon. And while the image the fiends show (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) implies it, all they actually SAY is that the master could intervene (which could mean many things). And note: could, not would.

[Fyraltari]

Actually, V never indicates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html) he thinks his master could one-shot the dragon. And while the image the fiends show (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) implies it, all they actually SAY is that the master could intervene (which could mean many things). And note: could, not would.

I always interpreted these images as being V's imagination of what the Fiends are saying.

[Riftwolf]

What I meant is, aren't there always stories of things being experimented on by spellcasters in the fluff? I remember from the Monster Manual that owlbears likely were products of a magical experiment. There isn't (and, to the best of my knowledge, has never been) a spell to do things like that, but that style of thing has been mentioned in the fluff countless times.

It could've been Polymorph Any Object. Its works as a catch-all spell for anything sufficiently ridiculous.

[Chronos]

First off, the Vector Legion (Tarquin's group) are probably epic. At the very least, Tarquin was able to single-handedly hold off five high-level adventurers for multiple rounds. They're almost certainly lower level than Xykon, but they should still be on the list.

Of characters who have gotten their power through class levels, Xykon and Haerta are probably the most powerful (and we have no good way of knowing which is greater, since Haerta was already gone by the time V faced Xykon). But there are other creatures that got their power in other ways. Even on this plane, Monster-San is probably more powerful than Xykon, and then on other planes there are the gods and the IFCC. And of course, the Snarl beats any of them.

[Sylian]

He had access to epic spells, but was otherwise himself, including poor planning on his spell prep (no death ward).Wizards can't cast Death Ward.

[Jasdoif]

Wizards can't cast Death Ward.That's what limited wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) is for.

[Synesthesy]

That's what limited wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) is for.

But the soul splice term explicitly excluded copying divine magic with wish or limited wish :smallconfused:

[Jasdoif]

But the soul splice term explicitly excluded copying divine magic with wish or limited wish :smallconfused:Oh...I was thinking about Dorukan, not Vaarsuvius.

[Peelee]

Oh...I was thinking about Dorukan, not Vaarsuvius.

Same, I had to go back and re-read the originating comment to get that.

[Sniccups]

I very much like how this discussion hasn't mentioned Xykon for about a page now. This forum is very good at changing the subject.

[Jubal_Barca]

Whilst this won't answer the question, I think there are two major issues with this - one we've covered, which is not knowing level numbers etc, and also the fact that level numbers don't always make for direct comparisons because e.g. soul splices, ghost army of Soon, etc.

But another point that springs to my mind is that the object of power is important. Why does a character have power and what does it mean to them, and therefore what can they do with that power?

If one character, let's call them Grondarius, is a wizard who can rip a continent in half with their mind, and another character, who I will name Iglan, is a wizard who can't do any kind of mass-effect casting but has a buttload of wards and epic empowered fireballs who can turn Grondarius into a billion specks of ash, who is more powerful? It's situational and depends what you want the power to do, they could be the exact same level but that doesn't mean that the best way of checking is a toe to toe fight. And as people have noted, Ghost Soon was more directly powerful in a toe to toe than Xykon, but presumably an epic level evil cleric, say, might have had the edge on Soon (stronger Turn Undead), but been far weaker to Xykon. This is one of the areas where Xykon's core thesis of power (power is power, and the type doesn't matter as long as it's innate to you) is fundamentally flawed - different types of power aren't interchangeable. Xykon mainly can't see this because he can't really imagine a sort of important and useful power that does much other than blast whatever's in front of him (astral fortress notwithstanding). I don't know how much this is going to be explored - I think the important end point about why Xykon is wrong about power will be that actually effective teamwork is better than innate power because one BBEG can't cover all the bases no matter how epic - but I think it's an interesting secondary hole in his core villain thesis.

[Kish]

But the soul splice term explicitly excluded copying divine magic with wish or limited wish :smallconfused:Vaarsuvius could have used shapechange to turn into a golem or undead creature and been immune to energy drain.

[woweedd]

Vaarsuvius could have used shapechange to turn into a golem or undead creature and been immune to energy drain.
Or, my personal favorite idea, spam Sunburst in his face over and over. Maximum irony.

[RatElemental]

Whilst this won't answer the question, I think there are two major issues with this - one we've covered, which is not knowing level numbers etc, and also the fact that level numbers don't always make for direct comparisons because e.g. soul splices, ghost army of Soon, etc.

But another point that springs to my mind is that the object of power is important. Why does a character have power and what does it mean to them, and therefore what can they do with that power?

-snippity-

Bit of a quibble but an epic level cleric would probably be the ideal candidate to take on both ghost Soon and Xykon, possibly at the same time. Xykon isn't immune to being rebuked and definitely isn't immune to a casting of undeath to death.

Match that cleric against a living Soon, though... Well, they probably still win, actually.

[Kish]

Xykon isn't immune to being rebuked and definitely isn't immune to a casting of undeath to death.
That'd be "definitely is."


This spell functions like circle of death, except that it destroys undead creatures as noted above.



No creature of 9 or more HD can be affected

[martianmister]

I think Vaarsuvius was the most powerful individual in this world's history.

[Peelee]

I think Vaarsuvius was the most powerful individual in this world's history.

All gods and the Snarl. Most powerful elf, probably. Most powerful mortal, probably. Most powerful individual? Nowhere close.

[martianmister]

I still think Vaarsuvius was the most powerful individual in this world's history. As showcased by Raistlin, ultimate arcane power can defeat gods and even a whole pantheon.

[JBiddles]

Dorukan, thinking sensibly, could've beaten Xykon. He panicked, rushed in and got killed. If, say, he'd taken a second to Limited Wish for a Death Ward and pop some buffs, then teleported invisibly behind Xykon to nova him, or maybe Summoned Soon or any of a hundred possible strategies, he could've taken it. He was a Wizard who fought like a Sorcerer, and so he lost.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or, my personal favorite idea, spam Sunburst in his face over and over. Maximum irony.
Only really works if sunburst was Jephton's spell, which we have no way of knowing.


I still think Vaarsuvius was the most powerful individual in this world's history. As showcased by Raistlin, ultimate arcane power can defeat gods and even a whole pantheon.
OOTS-world is not Krynn.


Dorukan, thinking sensibly, could've beaten Xykon. He panicked, rushed in and got killed. If, say, he'd taken a second to Limited Wish for a Death Ward and pop some buffs, then teleported invisibly behind Xykon to nova him, or maybe Summoned Soon or any of a hundred possible strategies, he could've taken it. He was a Wizard who fought like a Sorcerer, and so he lost.
Whence the assumption that Dorukan had limited wish?

[hroþila]

Is Summon Soon some D&D spell I can't find on Google, or does that mean "summon the dead paladin known as Soon"?

[Necris Omega]

I don't think we can say with any certainty who the current biggest baddest bad is, but...

In the whole of OotS' history, the answer is really something of a dark horse. Rather... a Dark One.

He straight up purpled himself into outright godhood without any sort of sponsorships or other explanation and it's something so unprecedented that even the creator gods of infinity failed worlds are left scratching their heads at how he did it. What Xykon is trying to do (actually, is he shooting for godhood? Seems like anything less would be beneath his ego at the end of time...), he not only did, but did in a way that left the other gods confused and potentially opened up a way to rewrite fundamental rules of existence such that even the divines are terrified of what's at stake.

In a billion, billion worlds, that has never happened before. To do and achieve something that unique and unthinkable to multiple pantheons? ... that, ladies and gentlemen, is power.

[zimmerwald1915]

Is Summon Soon some D&D spell I can't find on Google, or does that mean "summon the dead paladin known as Soon"?
It's almost certainly the latter, and it would probably be accomplished by whatever means Dorukan used to summon Lirian to his dungeon. Which is itself almost certainly a homebrew spell, since I can find no (summoning) or (calling) spell that actually summons or calls a creature to you from a location on the same plane. That should really be (teleportation), and the art shows what looks like a teleportation circle, but (teleportation) is specifically barred by Cloister.

[Kish]

It's almost certainly the latter, and it would probably be accomplished by whatever means Dorukan used to summon Lirian to his dungeon. Which is itself almost certainly a homebrew spell, since I can find no (summoning) or (calling) spell that actually summons or calls a creature to you from a location on the same plane. That should really be (teleportation), and the art shows what looks like a teleportation circle, but (teleportation) is specifically barred by Cloister.
More to the point, if you find yourself saying "Dorukan didn't fight like a wizard because he didn't call for a paladin to deal with the lich for him," you've achieved a meta-state of simultaneous complete kowtowing to and complete rejection of the Internet's tier system and "wizard=Batman" meme, which would cause me a splitting headache if I tried to wrap my mind around it, but luckily can cause me great amusement without my doing so.

[Fyraltari]

Whence the assumption that Dorukan had limited wish?
Since you know a lot about D&D and have been kind enough to enlighten me in the past I take advantage of this to ask, what was wrong with Dorukan's tactics? I mean I can see why Lirian trying poison and electricity on a flying skeleton isn't exactly a moment of brillinace but Dorukan summoned a dozen angels at him, that was awesome! Was there some obviously superior way to go about this?

Is Summon Soon some D&D spell I can't find on Google, or does that mean "summon the dead paladin known as Soon"?

"Paladin whose guts I hated (it was mutual) and whose death I'm not aware of".

[zimmerwald1915]

More to the point, if you find yourself saying "Dorukan didn't fight like a wizard because he didn't call for a paladin to deal with the lich for him," you've achieved a meta-state of simultaneous complete kowtowing to and complete rejection of the Internet's tier system and "wizard=Batman" meme, which would cause me a splitting headache if I tried to wrap my mind around it, but luckily can cause me great amusement without my doing so.
There is quite a lot in the idea that "fighting like a wizard" entails getting other people to fight your battles for you. The "god-style" of play so often recommended amounts in large part to that, whether in the form of summoning/calling or undead creation or golem crafting or buffing the party fighter. The concept is at the core of Tippy-style ice assassin plays.

However, Dorukan did try that. He called a horde of angels with gate, and they did both damage and distract Xykon, though obviously they weren't sufficient to the task. So if that calling doesn't satisfy a poster, but calling Soon somehow would, then we're just haggling over price.

[hroþila]

"Summon this dead paladin whose guts you hate (it was mutual) and who swore an oath to never come for a visit using your homebrew summoning spell that may or may not work on your target even if he was willing because, among other reasons, he was bound to his own gate", then.

As for Dorukan's tactics, I can't get into the D&D part of it, but it could be argued that he should have stayed behind his defenses instead of challenging Xykon in the open. But then, he took a calculated risk because for a moment he knew where Lirian's soul was and he wasn't willing to pass up on that chance, which might well have been the only one he had.

[zimmerwald1915]

Since you know a lot about D&D and have been kind enough to enlighten me in the past I take advantage of this to ask, what was wrong with Dorukan's tactics? I mean I can see why Lirian trying poison and electricity on a flying skeleton isn't exactly a moment of brillinace but Dorukan summoned a dozen angels at him, that was awesome! Was there some obviously superior way to go about this?
Circumstantial evidence suggests to me that Dorukan was an abjurer. Abjuration's specialty is the creation of protective wards and the undoing of magic; it is the school of magic circle against evil, dispel magic, antimagic field, disjunction, etc. Dorukan's Epic spell is called an abjuration, he is said and shown to have warded his dungeon with protective sigils, and the Gate creation ritual almost certainly involves abjuration. That being the case, abandoning his wards to fight on the open field was a tactical error.

This was to be expected, because Dorukan was not thinking tactically, but emotionally. It's hard to fault him for this, and I won't. But it does mean that he did not, for instance, spend a few days gating in even more, and more powerful, outsiders with whom he could teleport out to fight Xykon. It meant that he did not take the time to prepare spells suited to fighting Xykon, such as disjunction, but had to make do with the spells he had prepared for that morning - which at best were suited to taking advantage of his already-existing defenses. There was the really silly moment with prismatic spray. It's hard to say more, because so much of the fight happened offpanel.

[Fyraltari]

Okay, thank you.

[KorvinStarmast]

{case for the Dark one}

In a billion, billion worlds, that has never happened before. To do and achieve something that unique and unthinkable to multiple pantheons? ... that, ladies and gentlemen, is power. And I think Xykon would agree. I like the way you presented that. :smallsmile:

[Dungeon-noob]

But another point that springs to my mind is that the object of power is important. Why does a character have power and what does it mean to them, and therefore what can they do with that power?

If one character, let's call them Grondarius, is a wizard who can rip a continent in half with their mind, and another character, who I will name Iglan, is a wizard who can't do any kind of mass-effect casting but has a buttload of wards and epic empowered fireballs who can turn Grondarius into a billion specks of ash, who is more powerful? It's situational and depends what you want the power to do, they could be the exact same level but that doesn't mean that the best way of checking is a toe to toe fight. And as people have noted, Ghost Soon was more directly powerful in a toe to toe than Xykon, but presumably an epic level evil cleric, say, might have had the edge on Soon (stronger Turn Undead), but been far weaker to Xykon. This is one of the areas where Xykon's core thesis of power (power is power, and the type doesn't matter as long as it's innate to you) is fundamentally flawed - different types of power aren't interchangeable. Xykon mainly can't see this because he can't really imagine a sort of important and useful power that does much other than blast whatever's in front of him (astral fortress notwithstanding). I don't know how much this is going to be explored - I think the important end point about why Xykon is wrong about power will be that actually effective teamwork is better than innate power because one BBEG can't cover all the bases no matter how epic - but I think it's an interesting secondary hole in his core villain thesis.
I'd actually argue that that doesn't prove that Xykon's idea is wrong, just that it needs deeper reading than pure surface level. Xykon in that same speech also pointed out that "everything is weirdly balanced somehow" and "right now, power takes the form of a +8 racial bonus to listen checks", indicating that no one form of power is supirior, and what is most usefull at the moment does indeed vary. He's just making the case that if it is easy to lose something, you can't attibute its power to you. Which i agree with, mostly.

Also, i doubt it'll be explored,because the Giant has already stated that power isn't a theme, only what "standard" D&D players percieve as power is. So Xykon's paradigm won't be any more important then the bag-o-bones phylosiphy otherwise would have been.

[Prinygod]

More to the point, if you find yourself saying "Dorukan didn't fight like a wizard because he didn't call for a paladin to deal with the lich for him," you've achieved a meta-state of simultaneous complete kowtowing to and complete rejection of the Internet's tier system and "wizard=Batman" meme, which would cause me a splitting headache if I tried to wrap my mind around it, but luckily can cause me great amusement without my doing so.
The comparison of wizards to bat man, is not his ability to punch criminals, but to him researching how to counter his more dangerous foes in the bat cave. Shark repellent may be useless in 99% of capers, but when it would be useful batman makes sure to have it, and is used to great effect. Like wise there are a lot of wizard spells that won't see much use, but can other wise end an encounter when appropriate.

[martianmister]

OOTS-world is not Krynn.

Still, it's supposed to be ultimate arcane power. Can't V just wish up a demi-god and use familicide on him?

[zimmerwald1915]

Still, it's supposed to be ultimate arcane power. Can't V just wish up a demi-god and use familicide on him?
Per DStP commentary, "ultimate" does not mean "unsurpassable." It means "hitherto unsurpassed."

[Peelee]

Can't V just wish up a demi-god

No, not really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)

Even Wish has its limits.

[woweedd]

Still, it's supposed to be ultimate arcane power. Can't V just wish up a demi-god and use familicide on him?
No. Putting aside that I doubt even an spell like Famicilde could get through divine saving throws, V can't replicate divine spells using Wish.

[zimmerwald1915]

No. Putting aside that I doubt even an spell like Famicilde could get through divine saving throws, V can't replicate divine spells using Wish.
You don't need a divine spell to summon a god. Gods are, among other things, 20-HD Outsiders, and can be called with the gate spell if the caster is powerful enough.

[martianmister]

No, not really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)

It doesn't say that can't create demi-gods.

No. Putting aside that I doubt even an spell like Famicilde could get through divine saving throws, V can't replicate divine spells using Wish.

Familicide doesn't allow saving throws.

Per DStP commentary, "ultimate" does not mean "unsurpassable." It means "hitherto unsurpassed."

So, V is the most powerful individual yet?

[Peelee]

It doesn't say that can't create demi-gods.

It has a specific list of things Wish can do, then says attempting to do greater things can be dangerous. Sure, it doesn't say that can't create demigods, in the same way it doesn't say that can't create new planets - it's clearly well beyond the scope of Wish and would be solidly in the "dangerous" category, to understate the case somewhat.

[zimmerwald1915]

Familicide doesn't allow saving throws.
Point me to the statblock that says that.


So, V is the most powerful individual yet?
She possessed the most arcane power yet. She probably had something like 80 caster levels while spliced (>63 from the splices + 14 from her own levels), and even the gods typically have no more than 60 class levels. What that says about any other form of power is nil.

[Prinygod]

Point me to the statblock that says that.


She possessed the most arcane power yet. She probably had something like 80 caster levels while spliced (>63 from the splices + 14 from her own levels), and even the gods typically have no more than 60 class levels. What that says about any other form of power is nil.

Caster levels do not stack in 3.5, I mean it is possible the nature of soul splice is they do stack, but I think it would function more like a multi class spellcaster normally would.

[Ruck]

Still, it's supposed to be ultimate arcane power. Can't V just wish up a demi-god and use familicide on him?


Per DStP commentary, "ultimate" does not mean "unsurpassable." It means "hitherto unsurpassed."

I think it's even more ambiguous than that as to whether V is actually the most powerful caster that has ever been, but in any case, "ultimate" definitely does not mean "infinite" or "unlimited":


Once V accepted the splices (#635), he/she did have complete and total ultimate arcane power—insofar as he/she contained all three possible Soul Splices (and thus had a complete set), could use all of their spells at the same time (accessing the sum total of their magic), and had more total spell levels available than any other spellcaster (giving him/her the ultimate selection of arcane powers). Of course, more spells than anyone else does not necessarily mean every spell, and it certainly does not mean infinite power.

[martianmister]

Point me to the statblock that says that.

Rich Burlew's explanation of the spell told us that it killed everyone who shared the dragon's blood. If there is a saving throw, it wouldn't kill all of them.

It has a specific list of things Wish can do, then says attempting to do greater things can be dangerous.

Well, if it can change the past, then I see no reason why it can't create a demi-god.

[woweedd]

Rich Burlew's explanation of the spell told us that it killed everyone who shared the dragon's blood. If there is a saving throw, it wouldn't kill all of them.


Well, if it can change the past, then I see no reason why it can't create a demi-god.
It's plausible that the save only applies to the first target. Also, what do you mean "create a demigod?" Summon, maybe, create? No.

[hamishspence]

You don't need a divine spell to summon a god. Gods are, among other things, 20-HD Outsiders, and can be called with the gate spell if the caster is powerful enough.

They can refuse the call.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).


Deities can also block planar portals (such as the gate spell) from appearing in their homes in the first place.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#godlyRealm

Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible.

[Peelee]

Well, if it can change the past, then I see no reason why it can't create a demi-god.


A.) Those don't equate at all, though.
2.) Even then, it can force a re-roll only within the last round. Six seconds. Not even as powerful as the Omega-13 in Galaxy Quest. And even then, it's just a re-roll.

[Caerulea]

What exactly would killing a demigod get Vaarsuvius, other than a bunch of angry gods? The gods are not all related, and the demigods are not related to any of the other gods, probably, so it doesn't really accomplish anything.

—Caerulea

[Fyraltari]

2.) Even then, it can force a re-roll only within the last round. Six seconds. Not even as powerful as the Omega-13 in Galaxy Quest. And even then, it's just a re-roll.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GS2yMw-hq20/maxresdefault.jpg

[martianmister]

What exactly would killing a demigod get Vaarsuvius, other than a bunch of angry gods? The gods are not all related, and the demigods are not related to any of the other gods, probably, so it doesn't really accomplish anything.

—Caerulea

Northern and Western ones are all related.

[NoHaxJustPi]

...but... WHY would you do that? Why eradicate yellow or red quiddity? That’s just stupid!

[Squire Doodad]

From what we know, Soul Splice V was probably the most powerful thing to be fully from this world (excluding outsiders here, assuming the souls were all from this world) due to the combined power of the souls.
However, Xykon is probably a good candidate- assuming there weren't any individuals who nearly destroyed the world through their own might (e.g. a magical equivalent of the bad guy with nukes aimed at all the important places), I would say that the only viable candidates would be any of the people who ascended into the Elven pantheon. Most of the demigods are strong, but the Elven pantheon basically started from scratch, assuming their godhood occurred when they started believing in themselves more than the other Western gods. As such, if any of them were ascendants instead of manifesting entities (like whatever Banjo is now), then they would possibly have achieved power on par with Xykon.

Xykon is the most powerful being from this world that we have seen though.


...but... WHY would you do that? Why eradicate yellow or red quiddity? That’s just stupid!

Setting aside that there are a couple gods in each that are in there and have presumably not gotten into relationships (those that are canonically introduced and raised to gods by the gods but they do not marry anyone), and also setting aside the fact that it's been a long time, and eventually things happen, and...long story, you would want to do that for...um...yeah, I can't think of anything plausible that doesn't suggest major mental issues. Same with using Familicide in any context.

[martianmister]

...but... WHY would you do that? Why eradicate yellow or red quiddity? That’s just stupid!

Point is not if he would, point is whether he can do it or not.

[woweedd]

Northern and Western ones are all related.
A. Not all.
B. How would V get their hands on a demigod?

[martianmister]

A. Not all.

Norse gods are a family, same is true for the Mesopotamian gods.

B. How would V get their hands on a demigod?

It's already discussed in recent posts, with all pros and cons.

[Peelee]

Norse gods are a family, same is true for the Mesopotamian gods.

Neither of which are OotS gods.

[Squire Doodad]

Neither of which are OotS gods.

They draw inspiration (read: almost everything) from them with exceptions like Thor, meaning that most of the familial connections should stay roughly intact. This isn't a "Hel is Loki's sister instead of his daughter" scenario.


Norse gods are a family, same is true for the Mesopotamian gods.


The way I see it, while there are gods that are not related to the rest of their pantheon (and thus would not be affected by Familicide) the point is that it would allow you to slay 11/12 of two pantheons. No matter what your stats are, doing that means you are a top-tier being no matter what. Being strong enough to do what the Snarl did - even if by a series of technical loopholes instead of just raw power - is rivaled by nothing but deific entities.
Side note, you'd be immediately considered almost as dangerous as the Snarl and a round of mass smiting from everyone will occur. Even assuming you have plenty of rounds of it, gods are remarkably good at killing things they want dead, and summoning oneself into the material plane (or manifesting an avatar) is worth it to end a god-killing abomination. Alternatively, the gods would seal you away before they decide killing you is worth the risk, or maybe they would immediately reset the world and try again, this time sealed against you in particular. I mean, you can't live long in space, right? And I think the gods are capable of shutting down plane shifts (among other things) if they focus on a single entity.

[magic9mushroom]

Xykon takes all the epic levels from "two of the most powerful souls ever damned to the Lower Planes" with a single Energy Drain.

No. He took all their epic spell slots. Each negative level removes one spell slot from the highest level of spells the victim has. In this case, that'd be epic slots, and you only get one of those per ten Knowledge ranks.

The implication is that it hit both of them at full power, so assuming an average roll from Energy Drain (5), that would simply imply that they're less than 57th level (for 60 ranks of Knowledge(arcana)). That's a very loose bound; even Xykon's Superb Dispelling working is a tighter bound than that.


Xykon is presumably 22nd level or so, judging by his comment in the third panel of #442 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html),

He's probably at least 23rd and possibly 26+, given his metamagicked 9ths (Still Meteor Swarm, Maximised Energy Drain).

[Squire Doodad]

He's probably at least 23rd and possibly 26+, given his metamagicked 9ths (Still Meteor Swarm, Maximised Energy Drain).

Is Still Meteor Swarm something different or...? I'd imagine either a version that doesn't fire in its normal path but instead inflicts damage at point blank range (a clever idea would be to get surronded, get some sort of two-turn in one thing, do a Word of Recall and then an obscenely powerful spell a la Ultima. Or maybe rig it with a Contingency [if Ultima is cast, Word of Recall to Base]). The amount of things doable with two-turn combos is fun.
I interpreted it to just mean "still using Meteor Swarm".

[understatement]

Still doesn't require somatic components. That's how he got out of the Crushing Hand.

idk

[Peelee]

Is Still Meteor Swarm something different or...? I'd imagine either a version that doesn't fire in its normal path but instead inflicts damage at point blank range (a clever idea would be to get surronded, get some sort of two-turn in one thing, do a Word of Recall and then an obscenely powerful spell a la Ultima. Or maybe rig it with a Contingency [if Ultima is cast, Word of Recall to Base]). The amount of things doable with two-turn combos is fun.
I interpreted it to just mean "still using Meteor Swarm".


Still Spell [Metamagic]

A stilled spell can be cast with no somatic components.

Spells without somatic components are not affected. A stilled spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

Somatic components are the hand gestures some spells require. So if you're shackled appropriately or have a buncv of wights pinning you or are being crushed by a big magical hand, a Still Spell metamagic will make it so you can cast spells without worrying about that. Sorcs, casting spontaneously, can apply metamagic at will, so long as they have the slots for it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is Still Meteor Swarm something different or...?

Still Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm) is a metamagic improvement to a spell. You slot it one level higher (i.e. the ninth level meteor swarm becomes the tenth level still meteor swarm), and you can cast it without having to use somatic components - i.e. while grappled.

More impressive is the Quicken Spell, which make a spell take a swift action to cast, in exchange for making it four levels higher. Which is particularly weird for Xykon, since it can't be applied to spontaneous spells like the ones of a sorcerer (I suspect he exchanged his familiar for the ability to use it)

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

Still Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm) is a metamagic improvement to a spell. You slot it one level higher (i.e. the ninth level meteor swarm becomes the tenth level still meteor swarm), and you can cast it without having to use somatic components - i.e. while grappled.

More impressive is the Quicken Spell, which make a spell take a swift action to cast, in exchange for making it four levels higher. Which is particularly weird for Xykon, since it can't be applied to spontaneous spells like the ones of a sorcerer (I suspect he exchanged his familiar for the ability to use it)

Grey Wolf


Quicken Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special

This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

Eh... that's balls. I don't think we ever ruled it that way, at our table. What's the point of denying sorcerers this must-have feat? Sorcerers are already weaker than wizards. Besides: Spell gets metamagick'd, becomes a full-round, apply metamagic, full round gets reduced to free.

I don't think Rich is denying sorcerers the ability to use quickened spells, I /think/ I remember Xykon using them.

[Goblin_Priest]

No. He took all their epic spell slots. Each negative level removes one spell slot from the highest level of spells the victim has. In this case, that'd be epic slots, and you only get one of those per ten Knowledge ranks.

The implication is that it hit both of them at full power, so assuming an average roll from Energy Drain (5), that would simply imply that they're less than 57th level (for 60 ranks of Knowledge(arcana)). That's a very loose bound; even Xykon's Superb Dispelling working is a tighter bound than that.



He's probably at least 23rd and possibly 26+, given his metamagicked 9ths (Still Meteor Swarm, Maximised Energy Drain).

Eh, that's poor logic. You are only as strong as your highest level spell, for casters, mostly. A level 20 wizard would mop the floor of a multiclass level 10 wizard/level 10 sorcerer. That's essentially what the soul splice is. Stacking on a lot of different class levels, some a few times over. Yes, it's a huge total ECL, but anybody that has used high LA monsters as PCs knows that ECL sucks. "Oh no, an ECL 17 wizard! OH wait, he's a giant, haha let's all laugh at him as the level 17 gnome wizard kicks his ass".

V very quickly ran out of high level spells. A tactic that could not have been used against Xykon, since Enervation and Energy Drain don't harm undead, they help them. So while Xykon could keep dishing out lvl 9-12 spell slots for a while, V was extremely quickly reduced to not even having lvl 8 slots anymore, if even lvl 7 slots (don't recall V's personal caster level of the time). That raw power was also pretty fragile, V lost a splice pretty quickly out of combat. Was it Tarquin that said something about power you don't control is no power at all? ;)

[Peelee]

Eh... that's balls. I don't think we ever ruled it that way, at our table. What's the point of denying sorcerers this must-have feat? Sorcerers are already weaker than wizards. Besides: Spell gets metamagick'd, becomes a full-round, apply metamagic, full round gets reduced to free.

I don't think Rich is denying sorcerers the ability to use quickened spells, I /think/ I remember Xykon using them.

GW and I both subscribe to the idea that Xykon has an alternate class feature.

Metamagic Specialist

With a limited selection of spells at his fingertips, it's natural for a sorcerer to turn to metamagic feats to gain flexibility in effects.

Class Features

The metamagic specialist has all the standard*Sorcerer*class features, except as noted below.

Level: 1st.

Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain a familiar.

Benefit: You can apply metamagic feats that you know to sorcerer spells without increasing the casting time. This benefit even lets you quicken your sorcerer spells with the Quicken Spell feat.

You can use this class feature a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Int modifier (minimum 1). This is an extraordinary ability.

[Vendanna]

GW and I both subscribe to the idea that Xykon has an alternate class feature.

Yeah, and probably that class feature was shown clearly on SoD, when we see xykon mooping because his pet died (dogs could be taken as familiars, no?) I think that was one of the reasons to showcase that scene.

[Peelee]

(dogs could be taken as familiars, no?)

No, at least not on the standard list. Bat, cat,*hawk, lizard, owl rat,*raven, snake, toad, weasel.

[Kish]

Eh... that's balls. I don't think we ever ruled it that way, at our table.

Your table doesn't play D&D, rather Pathfinder, remember?

I /think/ I remember Xykon using them.
You may well remember it, but it hasn't happened.

[Lacuna Caster]

But it's not legit. V missed a lot more than that, he also missed that Qarr would not necessity be bound to take V's head to the fleet, and he missed that Resurrection has a ten minute casting time (this is even specifically brought up later). The plan only had to seem legit, so whatever V thought, however questionable (eg Resurrection is instantaneous, Qarr will deliver his head, Aarindarius could easily defeat the dragon), he would still choose selfishly.
Looking back at the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), they explicitly say that Durkon has a scroll for the purpose, so there would be no casting time. Is that just not how the rules work, and would V be broadly aware of this?

[CriticalFailure]

Doesn't casting from a scroll still take the required time, only you don't have to have the spell prepared/components?

[JBiddles]

Looking back at the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), they explicitly say that Durkon has a scroll for the purpose, so there would be no casting time. Is that just not how the rules work, and would V be broadly aware of this?

I was about to say that you can't put metamagic on a scroll, but on rereading the rules, apparently you can have a scroll of a metamagicked spell. Unfortunately, you can't Quicken a spell with a casting time of more than a round, so there's no such thing as a Quickened Resurrection. However, we know that V doesn't know about that spell's casting time. It's plausible that V - trance-deprived and panicking - could believe that Durkon might have such a scroll.

Of course, the plan is still ridiculous. If Qarr is as good as his word and if he actually can cut off V's head and if Durkon is even willing to raise V and if he does so immediately and if he also still has the Sending scroll and if Aarindarius isn't on another plane/behind a dozen wards/busy/dead and if Aarindarius has spell slots left and if they also have Teleport prepared and if Aarindarius can fight an Ancient Black Dragon and if they're willing and if the whole song-and-dance can be accomplished in time and if ABD is stupid enough to wait rather than break into the house (1 action) eat the children slowly (what, 10 actions? They're going to be unconscious from blood loss very soon) cast 2 soul-binding spells (2 actions) and Plane Shift (1 action) in a couple of minutes, and IF the Fiends aren't just outright lying, it might kind of work.

V is far out of her right mind. That's the only reason she accepts the possibility, and indeed the whole premise.

[Kish]

Looking back at the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), they explicitly say that Durkon has a scroll for the purpose, so there would be no casting time. Is that just not how the rules work, and would V be broadly aware of this?
They say not to worry about "the casting time" because Durkon has been saving a (one) scroll for that purpose. However, their plan, as described in the sentence directly prior to mentioning the scroll, featured two spells with ten-minute casting times. So, they said Durkon had a scroll of Resurrection, or they said Durkon had a scroll of Sending.

Vaarsuvius explicitly didn't know Resurrection had a ten-minute casting time. And Durkon cast Resurrection on Roy the old-fashioned way, taking ten minutes; even if he has or had a scroll of Resurrection (or of Sending, for that matter; I see no reason to assume the fiends weren't simply lying as they were when they said Durkon was still at the fleet), he didn't use it on Roy, so I'm not seeing why he would have pulled it out in response to Vaarsuvius' head landing in front of him either.

There was nothing in the plan that the trance-deprived, borderline-insane, and always ridiculously arrogant and self-involved Vaarsuvius should necessarily have seen a flaw in: not the incomprehension of the casting time of a spell they'd dismissed as "not real magic," not the belief that a cowardly and self-centered imp would behave like some kind of robot, not the basic reality that there was no way they weren't being manipulated the second THREE ARCHFIENDS opened their mouths.

There was much in the plan that a wiser person would have seen flaws in.

[Goblin_Priest]

Your table doesn't play D&D, rather Pathfinder, remember?

You may well remember it, but it hasn't happened.

Doesn't play D&D /anymore/. Started with 3.0 and then 3.5, played a session or two of 4e. But that was all ages ago. So, either I don't remember it, or we just never noticed it. Or maybe it never came up, also a possibility I guess.

Why do you remember that I play PF though? XD

[Squire Doodad]

However, their plan, as described in the sentence directly prior to mentioning the scroll, featured two spells with ten-minute casting times. So, they said Durkon had a scroll of Resurrection, or they said Durkon had a scroll of Sending.

Durkon generally prepares several rounds of Sending to talk to his mother, so it stands to reason he has a scroll or two for a last minute "Ma, I'm not going to be back after all..." situation. He also might have a Resurrection scroll, though there isn't quite as much evidence to suggest that.
Huh. The alternate plan proposed to V basically is a side effect of Durkon loving his mother.

[Kish]

Durkon wasn't even at the fleet.

You're putting way too much weight on what amounts to "assuming all the parts that haven't been explicitly disproven were true, why were they true?"

[Squire Doodad]

Durkon wasn't even at the fleet.

You're putting way too much weight on what amounts to "assuming all the parts that haven't been explicitly disproven were true, why were they true?"

Good point.

I'm basically saying that given what we know now, Durkon probably had a Sending scroll. That's pretty much it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Good point.

I'm basically saying that given what we know now, Durkon probably had a Sending scroll. That's pretty much it.
Durkon apparently prepared four sending spells every so often to talk to Sigdi. Him having a scroll as well is not at all farfetched.

But whether that specific is plausible is somewhat beside the point, no?

[magic9mushroom]

Eh, that's poor logic. You are only as strong as your highest level spell, for casters, mostly. A level 20 wizard would mop the floor of a multiclass level 10 wizard/level 10 sorcerer. That's essentially what the soul splice is. Stacking on a lot of different class levels, some a few times over. Yes, it's a huge total ECL, but anybody that has used high LA monsters as PCs knows that ECL sucks. "Oh no, an ECL 17 wizard! OH wait, he's a giant, haha let's all laugh at him as the level 17 gnome wizard kicks his ass".

V very quickly ran out of high level spells. A tactic that could not have been used against Xykon, since Enervation and Energy Drain don't harm undead, they help them. So while Xykon could keep dishing out lvl 9-12 spell slots for a while, V was extremely quickly reduced to not even having lvl 8 slots anymore, if even lvl 7 slots (don't recall V's personal caster level of the time). That raw power was also pretty fragile, V lost a splice pretty quickly out of combat. Was it Tarquin that said something about power you don't control is no power at all? ;)

I'm not sure how this is related to what I said. I said that Ganonron and Jephton's level wasn't bounded to mid-20s by Xykon's Energy Drain stripping all their epic spell slots (Sniccups apparently thought that this implied they'd been drained below 21st level, which isn't how negative levels work). I also said that Xykon's use of metamagicked 9th-level spells implies he's probably mid-20s rather than low-20s. That is all I said. I am not sure how this is related to your (largely accurate) diatribe about how ECL =/= power.

[Goblin_Priest]

I'm not sure how this is related to what I said. I said that Ganonron and Jephton's level wasn't bounded to mid-20s by Xykon's Energy Drain stripping all their epic spell slots (Sniccups apparently thought that this implied they'd been drained below 21st level, which isn't how negative levels work). I also said that Xykon's use of metamagicked 9th-level spells implies he's probably mid-20s rather than low-20s. That is all I said. I am not sure how this is related to your (largely accurate) diatribe about how ECL =/= power.

Oh, I thought you were arguing that spliced V was the world's most powerful individual, because she had all these stacked levels.

Also I'm not sure how these splices work. I've got the impression that negative levels apply to all of them equally, and aren't split, otherwise it wouldn't be such a dastardly effective tactic.

You do seem correct that some of the splices seem low-epic. The necro was "the most powerful" I believe was stated, though, and she escaped on her own before the fight with Xykon. Maybe she was lvl 30, for all we know.