Wondrous Item Crafting. Am I Doing This Right?

[Ravenv13]

Hello All. I would like to apologize in advance if this is the wrong area for this post (i couldnt find a wondrous items crafting thread that answered my question in a way i could understand) or if I am breaking rules (been a long time since i been online here, but i rechecked just in case) and if informed, i will formally apologize.

Now, to the question at hand.

I am running on the Pathfinder System. I am playing a 7th level pugilist (fighter archetype) that heals in combat. My pugilist has the Field Surgeon and Asclepian Doctor feats. Another player noticed i had to keep buying healer kits to use those abilities. He gave me the idea to make a reusable one. He is a sorcerer with the correct feats and spells. So the real question is, am i making this right? I am mainly having issues with pricing and cost, but overall review would be much appreciated as well.

To explain my character a bit more:
I am playing a character similar to Everest from Hotel Artemis

The Item In Question:
Kit, Surgeon’s (Masterwork Healer's Kit)

Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th; Slot none; Price 20,600 gp; Weight 1 lb.

This hard box of sanitized bandages and medicinal herbs provides a +3 (normally +2, added +1 from MW item (wrong?)) circumstance bonus on Heal checks. A Surgeon's Kit is exhausted after 10 uses.

Once per day, when the Surgeon's Kit is closed and empty, the Surgeon's Kit will automatically restore itself to 10 uses.

Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate; Cost: 10,350 gp (10,00 from 5 level spell, 350 from MW Healer's Kit). XP Cost: 414

Also, if anyone has a way to make this a melee weapon I am all ears. Thank you all so much for any and all help.

*Edited: Can Cooperative Crafting allow me to pay for the Experience Cost from this item?

[Kaskus]

I think you are overpricing this. Unfortunately pricing wondrous items is tricky but looking at existing items, I would put something like this at 8,000gp cost (4,000 to create). That's seems to "feel right" to me. I wish I could just give you some math for it but that doesn't typically work well with wondrous items. Hopefully that helps?

[rferries]

Under 3.5 a continuous item of +3 to Heal checks would just cost 900 gp (skill bonus squared x 100), so I can't see it costing much more than that in PF. (I totally get that you were thinking logically about fabricate etc though).

[Ravenv13]

Kaskus said:

"I think you are overpricing this. Unfortunately pricing wondrous items is tricky but looking at existing items, I would put something like this at 8,000gp cost (4,000 to create). That's seems to "feel right" to me. I wish I could just give you some math for it but that doesn't typically work well with wondrous items. Hopefully that helps?"

I forgot RAW said to compare and estimate using other magic items. And that makes me feel much better, i too thought it was overpriced. But, i also thought i was being a penny-pincher :\ :)


rferries said:

"Under 3.5 a continuous item of +3 to Heal checks would just cost 900 gp (skill bonus squared x 100), so I can't see it costing much more than that in PF. (I totally get that you were thinking logically about fabricate etc though)".

I was under the impression that a magic item had to have a masterwork base item? So i used a mw healers kit.

A Healers Kit (in Pathfinder) provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Heal checks made with it.

I was also under the impression that a MW item of any type gets a +1 bonus, and rereading through the crafting rules for masterwork items, I seem to be wrong?

Also it was supposed to be use activated:

Once per day, when the Surgeon's Kit is closed and empty, the Surgeon's Kit will automatically restore itself to 10 uses.

A use-activated item normally just has to be used in order to activate it, right? Should i change it to "closed while empty"?

Lastly, the spell fabricate is the spell used to refill it, not give better bonuses. Just wanted to clarify.

I do appreciate the input and have changed stats accordingly:

Kit, Surgeon’s (Masterwork Healer's Kit)

Aura: faint transmutation; CL: 5th; Slot: none; Price: 8,600 gp; Weight: 1 lb.

This hard box of sanitized bandages and medicinal herbs provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Heal checks. A Surgeon's Kit is exhausted after 10 uses.

Once per day, when the Surgeon's Kit is closed and while empty, the Surgeon's Kit will automatically restore itself to 10 uses.

Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate; Cost: 4,350 gp. XP Cost: 414

I kept the crafting cost +350 gp for the price of the MW Item (and doubled it for the buying price) just because i don't mind paying the 350 extra gold to make it easier for my GM to allow (versus the previous 10,350 total). Anything else after corrections?

Again, Thank You All So Much.

Edited: A couple previously unanswered questions: Is there any possible way to turn this item into a melee weapon, without being improvised? And can the Cooperative Casting feat allow me to pay the XP cost for crafting this item for my sorcerer partner?

[noob]

Hello All. I would like to apologize in advance if this is the wrong area for this post (i couldnt find a wondrous items crafting thread that answered my question in a way i could understand) or if I am breaking rules (been a long time since i been online here, but i rechecked just in case) and if informed, i will formally apologize.

Now, to the question at hand.

I am running on the Pathfinder System. I am playing a 7th level pugilist (fighter archetype) that heals in combat. My pugilist has the Field Surgeon and Asclepian Doctor feats. Another player noticed i had to keep buying healer kits to use those abilities. He gave me the idea to make a reusable one. He is a sorcerer with the correct feats and spells. So the real question is, am i making this right? I am mainly having issues with pricing and cost, but overall review would be much appreciated as well.

To explain my character a bit more:
I am playing a character similar to Everest from Hotel Artemis

The Item In Question:
Kit, Surgeon’s (Masterwork Healer's Kit)

Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th; Slot none; Price 20,600 gp; Weight 1 lb.

This hard box of sanitized bandages and medicinal herbs provides a +3 (normally +2, added +1 from MW item (wrong?)) circumstance bonus on Heal checks. A Surgeon's Kit is exhausted after 10 uses.

Once per day, when the Surgeon's Kit is closed and empty, the Surgeon's Kit will automatically restore itself to 10 uses.

Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate; Cost: 10,350 gp (10,00 from 5 level spell, 350 from MW Healer's Kit). XP Cost: 414

Also, if anyone has a way to make this a melee weapon I am all ears. Thank you all so much for any and all help.

*Edited: Can Cooperative Crafting allow me to pay for the Experience Cost from this item?

to compare to what could grant you a portion of what you want an item of at will cure light wounds would cost 1800gp
complete that with asking the sorcerer to create a hundred healing kits(1000 uses) from base components and it would cost 1800 gp for the healing at will without charge parts and 1667 gp for the kit charges for using your skill.

Then you can get an item of generic +5 aptitude to a skill for 2500 gp.
so for a total of 5967 gp you can get something that provides much more than this healing kit you want to get.
furthermore using a healing kit is not needed except when using the field doctor options which are obsoleted by Asclepian Doctor options which does not require healing kit uses but I did include in the cost a total of 1000 charges of healing kits which means you can not run out before the end of the campaign.

[Ravenv13]

to compare to what could grant you a portion of what you want an item of at will cure light wounds would cost 1800gp
complete that with asking the sorcerer to create a hundred healing kits(1000 uses) from base components and it would cost 1800 gp for the healing at will without charge parts and 1667 gp for the kit charges for using your skill.

Then you can get an item of generic +5 aptitude to a skill for 2500 gp.
so for a total of 5967 gp you can get something that provides much more than this healing kit you want to get.
furthermore using a healing kit is not needed except when using the field doctor options which are obsoleted by Asclepian Doctor options which does not require healing kit uses but I did include in the cost a total of 1000 charges of healing kits which means you can not run out before the end of the campaign.

Asclepian Doctor doesnt need a healer's kit? I was still following the heal skill rules, and those mentioned on field surgeon lol
Annnnd, i dont understand how to give +5 to any (any known?) skill. Is it any skills or just one? Like i got pricing now, but how do you give the bonus to the (known?) skills?

To explain my character a bit more:
I am playing a character similar to Everest from Hotel Artemis.

I realized this ^ did not help much at all, sorry for that.

I'm also not wanting to just "cure" everyone, i play him like he wants to only use his skill to heal, but he has no problem with special equipment helping him. Overall, he wants to be the healer, not using the magic to heal others.

Lastly, the 1000 uses is kinda OP to me. yeah its cheap, but it seems a bit much. The 10 use limit still applies, and it can only be refilled when already empty. I think thats good fluff and a good way to offset the bonus. I understand where you are going as well, but i was hoping for something to still match flavor

And i only wanted a healer's kit because of the feats and because Everest literally beats 3 armored guys down with a portable med-kit, even throwing it at one point. so its kinda one of his things.

Either way, if the Asclepian Doctor feat doesnt need healer's kit to use it, then this is all a moot point, i can keep a normal healer's kit for fluff and basic usage, and use asclepian doctor for everything else. Now, if we could make a normal healer's kit into a weapon, then it would really iron out the character concept. To me thats the only snag now.

Thank You Much.

[noob]

Asclepian Doctor doesnt need a healer's kit? I was still following the heal skill rules, and those mentioned on field surgeon lol
Annnnd, i dont understand how to give +5 to any (any known?) skill. Is it any skills or just one? Like i got pricing now, but how do you give the bonus to the (known?) skills?

To explain my character a bit more:
I am playing a character similar to Everest from Hotel Artemis.

I realized this ^ did not help much at all, sorry for that.

I'm also not wanting to just "cure" everyone, i play him like he wants to only use his skill to heal, but he has no problem with special equipment helping him. Overall, he wants to be the healer, not using the magic to heal others.

Lastly, the 1000 uses is kinda OP to me. yeah its cheap, but it seems a bit much. The 10 use limit still applies, and it can only be refilled when already empty. I think thats good fluff and a good way to offset the bonus. I understand where you are going as well, but i was hoping for something to still match flavor

And i only wanted a healer's kit because of the feats and because Everest literally beats 3 armored guys down with a portable med-kit, even throwing it at one point. so its kinda one of his things.

Either way, if the Asclepian Doctor feat doesnt need healer's kit to use it, then this is all a moot point, i can keep a normal healer's kit for fluff and basic usage, and use asclepian doctor for everything else. Now, if we could make a normal healer's kit into a weapon, then it would really iron out the character concept. To me thats the only snag now.

Thank You Much.

So you say that carrying 100 regular healing kits made with fabricate in a few days is op?
Also the healing skill does not needs healing kits : it just gives a special penalty when using one of the specific options of the heal skill.
the only thing that specifically needs healing kits is the field surgeon feat otherwise none of the use of the heal skill needs healing kit charges(they just get harder).

Since you have a character specialized in healing you are probably rocking around a +15 to heal checks or more it means that with a small boost to heal checks such as a magical doctor set of clothes that inspire you magically thus giving you a +5 aptitude bonus to heal checks might bridge the line from frequent success to near automatic success even without healing kit.
And 100 healing kits even if bought the regular way costs only 5000 gp and will last you an entire campaign.
If you want to carry them all on long trips just get a bag of holding.

[Ravenv13]

Originally Posted by Ravenv13 View Post

Asclepian Doctor doesnt need a healer's kit? I was still following the heal skill rules, and those mentioned on field surgeon lol

Annnnd, i dont understand how to give +5 to any (any known?) skill. Is it any skills or just one? Like i got pricing now, but how do you give the bonus to the (known?) skills?

To explain my character a bit more:
I am playing a character similar to Everest from Hotel Artemis.

I realized this ^ did not help much at all, sorry for that.

I'm also not wanting to just "cure" everyone, i play him like he wants to only use his skill to heal, but he has no problem with special equipment helping him. Overall, he wants to be the healer, not using the magic to heal others.

Lastly, the 1000 uses is kinda OP to me. yeah its cheap, but it seems a bit much. The 10 use limit still applies, and it can only be refilled when already empty. I think thats good fluff and a good way to offset the bonus. I understand where you are going as well, but i was hoping for something to still match flavor

And i only wanted a healer's kit because of the feats and because Everest literally beats 3 armored guys down with a portable med-kit, even throwing it at one point. so its kinda one of his things.


Either way, if the Asclepian Doctor feat doesnt need healer's kit to use it, then this is all a moot point, i can keep a normal healer's kit for fluff and basic usage, and use asclepian doctor for everything else. Now, if we could make a normal healer's kit into a weapon, then it would really iron out the character concept. To me thats the only snag now.

Thank You Much.

So you say that carrying 100 regular healing kits made with fabricate in a few days is op?
Also the healing skill does not needs healing kits : it just gives a special penalty when using one of the specific options of the heal skill.
the only thing that specifically needs healing kits is the field surgeon feat otherwise none of the use of the heal skill needs healing kit charges(they just get harder).

Since you have a character specialized in healing you are probably rocking around a +15 to heal checks or more it means that with a small boost to heal checks such as a magical doctor set of clothes that inspire you magically thus giving you a +5 aptitude bonus to heal checks might bridge the line from frequent success to near automatic success even without healing kit.
And 100 healing kits even if bought the regular way costs only 5000 gp and will last you an entire campaign.
If you want to carry them all on long trips just get a bag of holding.


So you say that carrying 100 regular healing kits made with fabricate in a few days is op?
Also the healing skill does not needs healing kits : it just gives a special penalty when using one of the specific options of the heal skill.
the only thing that specifically needs healing kits is the field surgeon feat otherwise none of the use of the heal skill needs healing kit charges(they just get harder).

Since you have a character specialized in healing you are probably rocking around a +15 to heal checks or more it means that with a small boost to heal checks such as a magical doctor set of clothes that inspire you magically thus giving you a +5 aptitude bonus to heal checks might bridge the line from frequent success to near automatic success even without healing kit.
And 100 healing kits even if bought the regular way costs only 5000 gp and will last you an entire campaign.
If you want to carry them all on long trips just get a bag of holding.

I believe its OP for the concept i'm looking for. Skills take penalties without proper tools, correct? I already realized before posting that alot of this could be done easier, and more efficient, but this is what my gm, my sorcerer partner, and i would like to do, and agreed upon. I did ask for just help on stating the item correctly, not for ways to create a better, but a new item/effect combination entirely. Although i will admit i did ask for help making it a melee weapon.


And i only wanted a healer's kit because of the feats and because Everest literally beats 3 armored guys down with a portable med-kit, even throwing it at one point. so its kinda one of his things.

I apologize if any of that came off as rude. That was not my intention, the post just got a little off the original point.

I'd still like input on this item, if you are willing.

[Kaskus]

To address your other questions...

1. I do not believe cooperative crafting allows you to pay the xp cost.

2. I'm not aware of a way to make a healers kit into a proper weapon but you can use the feats Throw Anything & Improvised Weapon Mastery to wield it more effectively.

[noob]

A masterwork healing kit is usable as an improvised weapon therefore it is a weapon therefore it is a masterwork weapon and thus can be enchanted.
Basically everything tangible and masterwork can be enchanted as weapons.
there is probably a pathfinder enchantment that makes the user of the enchanted weapon be proficient with it.
anyway you could avoid all that and instead have a scalpel or knife or hammer(there is such a thing as medical hammers) enchanted to help healing checks and enchanted as a weapon.

[Ravenv13]

To address your other questions...

1. I do not believe cooperative crafting allows you to pay the xp cost.

2. I'm not aware of a way to make a healers kit into a proper weapon but you can use the feats Throw Anything & Improvised Weapon Mastery to wield it more effectively.

Regarding Cooperative Crafting; That sucks, it seems implied.


A masterwork healing kit is usable as an improvised weapon therefore it is a weapon therefore it is a masterwork weapon and thus can be enchanted.
Basically everything tangible and masterwork can be enchanted as weapons.
there is probably a pathfinder enchantment that makes the user of the enchanted weapon be proficient with it.
anyway you could avoid all that and instead have a scalpel or knife or hammer(there is such a thing as medical hammers) enchanted to help healing checks and enchanted as a weapon.

I was thinking about getting scalpels, and i also believe there is a "proficiency" enchantment, didnt know that about MW items though, i appreciate it alot, will post again later with updated stats. And i believe i have one more question.

Do you know where i could find stats for scalpels? Or will i have to homebrew?

Thank you very much. Your inputs have been much appreciated.

[Ravenv13]

will post again later with updated stats.

Proud to Present:


Kit, Surgeon’s (Masterwork Healer's Kit)

Aura: faint transmutation; CL: 5th; Slot: none; Price: 24,700 gp; Weight: 3 lbs.

This hard box of sanitized bandages and medicinal herbs provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Heal checks. A Surgeon's Kit is exhausted after 10 uses.

Once per day, when the Surgeon's Kit is closed while empty, the Surgeon's Kit will automatically restore itself to 10 uses.

Improvised Large Club: The Surgeon's Kit is an improvised weapon that deals 1d8 bludgeoning damage, Criticals on a natural 20 for double damage, can be thrown with 10ft increments, and is one-handed.

The wielder of the Surgeon's Kit never takes a non-proficiency penalty when attacking with it.

Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate, bestow weapon proficiency; Cost: 12,350 gp. XP Cost: 494.


Just for the record, my human pugilist effectively has the powerful build racial ability, so hes technically Large:


Ring of Physique

Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Slot ring; Price 12,000 gp; Weight —

This ring increases the wearer's muscle mass. While equipped, the wearer is treated as one size larger whenever beneficial. Whenever the wearer is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for a Combat Maneuver Bonus or Combat Maneuver Defense (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the wearer is treated as one size larger if doing so is beneficial to the wearer. The wearer is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a the wearer’s special attacks based on size can affect him. The wearer can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. The wearer's space and reach remain those of a creature of its actual size. This size increase is magical and does not stack.

Forge Ring, Enlarge Person; Cost 6,000 gp, XP Cost: 240.


If that was plagiarism, i mainly wrote it down for personal reference. Im sorry if so, and if so it will be removed.


And i believe i have one more question.

Do you know where i could find stats for scalpels? Or will i have to homebrew?

Thank you very much. Your inputs have been much appreciated.

[exelsisxax]

Vest of Surgery (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Vest%20of%20Su rgery).

I think you greatly overvalue the ability to make poor melee/thrown attacks.

[Ravenv13]

Vest of Surgery (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Vest%20of%20Su rgery).

I think you greatly overvalue the ability to make poor melee/thrown attacks.

Im not trying to be rude, but if you read it, this is all fluff and Roleplaying, which is a big part of RPGs. My character concept is based from a movie character and these are things he did, thats all. the only thing not part of the movie was the reusable part. Which could have been a thing, but unmentioned:

With the nanotechnology in the movie able to 3-D print a liver. im sure you could "fabricate" more bandages with that.


this is what my gm, my sorcerer partner, and i would like to do, and agreed upon. I did ask for just help on stating the item correctly, not for ways to create a better, but a new item/effect combination entirely

I know the vest, it isn't what i'm looking for. Ive outlined, multiple times that this is all character concept fluff. I have a pretty pointles reason for all this. Im not worried about min-maxing it all, i just want to play this character. And do so fairly.

I'm sorry for being rude, but im not looking for "poor melee/thrown attacks".

[noob]

I think you might want to base the item on unseen crafter and have it replenish when you place the base components in it(it would be much cheaper but you would need to refill the thing with base components from which the medical supplies can be created)
Or you could make it based on leomud secret chest and price it at 10 times the bag of endless caltrops since it creates the equivalent of 10 times more gp value per day.
http://dnd.arkalseif.info/items/magic-item-compendium--73/bag-endless-caltrops--213/index.html

[Segev]

To make it a melee weapon, just call it a Surgeon's Knife, and use dagger stats. A MW dagger base cost is 302 gp. Price its weapon qualities according to being a weapon (so a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is 2000 gp, and you can add additional +s or +-equivalent effects for the usual pricings, where the final plus-equivalent total costs (bonus-equivalent squared)*2000 gp.

Then, as a second, unrelated ability (so a x1.5 cost), you can add a competence bonus to the Heal skill for base of (bonus squared)*100 gp. With the x1.5 cost, that comes to (bonus squared)*150 gp.

So a +3 would be 900 base, with the 1.5x it'd come to 1350.


It's honestly probably better to just make it a non-magical item as a weapon. The MW knife would still be +1 enhancement to hit (but not damage) for the 302 gp cost, and the +3 competence bonus to Heal checks would be a mere 900 gp. (+4 would be 1600; +5 would be 2500; +9 would be 8100! So a +9 Surgeon's Knife would give +9 to Heal checks, +1 to hit, no damage bonus, and cost 8402 gp market value. Crafting cost would be 4352, because you don't halve the MW item cost.)

[The Kool]

Let's break this down to basics. Firstly, wielding anything as an improvised weapon needs no extra cost... You just pick it up and swing, then get your DM to give you a damage value. If you want to, I don't think there should be any concerns with allowing the character to be proficient with the kit as an improvised weapon. Just check that with your DM, it shouldn't affect the price much if any. The healer's kit portion, on the other hand, seems to have the net effect that it is able to not run out of uses. Just like the vest. So we can use it as a price comparison point. It's worth noting that the vest takes an equipment slot and the kit does not, but on the other hand the kit takes time to pull out (unless you're clubbing with it) and actually has the potential to run out if you're doing large battlefield things, unlike the vest. So I think it would be entirely fair to pitch the kit at the exact same price as the vest.

[noob]

Let's break this down to basics. Firstly, wielding anything as an improvised weapon needs no extra cost... You just pick it up and swing, then get your DM to give you a damage value. If you want to, I don't think there should be any concerns with allowing the character to be proficient with the kit as an improvised weapon. Just check that with your DM, it shouldn't affect the price much if any. The healer's kit portion, on the other hand, seems to have the net effect that it is able to not run out of uses. Just like the vest. So we can use it as a price comparison point. It's worth noting that the vest takes an equipment slot and the kit does not, but on the other hand the kit takes time to pull out (unless you're clubbing with it) and actually has the potential to run out if you're doing large battlefield things, unlike the vest. So I think it would be entirely fair to pitch the kit at the exact same price as the vest.
You do this at no extra cost but it have a penalty to attack rolls of -4 for non proficiency unless you get proficiency with the improvised weapon.

[Ravenv13]

I think you might want to base the item on unseen crafter and have it replenish when you place the base components in it(it would be much cheaper but you would need to refill the thing with base components from which the medical supplies can be created)
Or you could make it based on leomud secret chest and price it at 10 times the bag of endless caltrops since it creates the equivalent of 10 times more gp value per day.
http://dnd.arkalseif.info/items/magic-item-compendium--73/bag-endless-caltrops--213/index.html

I actually do want to do that. I like the fact that it still needs the materials, and makes it more like the movies character and even a magical refluff of the tech.


Let's break this down to basics. Firstly, wielding anything as an improvised weapon needs no extra cost... You just pick it up and swing, then get your DM to give you a damage value. If you want to, I don't think there should be any concerns with allowing the character to be proficient with the kit as an improvised weapon. Just check that with your DM, it shouldn't affect the price much if any. The healer's kit portion, on the other hand, seems to have the net effect that it is able to not run out of uses. Just like the vest. So we can use it as a price comparison point. It's worth noting that the vest takes an equipment slot and the kit does not, but on the other hand the kit takes time to pull out (unless you're clubbing with it) and actually has the potential to run out if you're doing large battlefield things, unlike the vest. So I think it would be entirely fair to pitch the kit at the exact same price as the vest.

I forgot that about improvised weapons at first. Seriously though, thank you. The true purpose is to have a limited/unlimited use. I want to have unlimited use, but to get it, i need do something simple or just tedious. And i figured 20/day is enough (not unlimited), but didnt think about that aspect.


Vest of Surgery (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Vest%20of%20Su rgery).

I think you greatly overvalue the ability to make poor melee/thrown attacks.

If you were talking about price comparison then id like to formally apologize. Some people seem to want to just be the best at the game, but i wanna play the game. And it upsets me when i wanna play, but they suggest to play better? I have issues sometimes.


You do this at no extra cost but it have a penalty to attack rolls of -4 for non proficiency unless you get proficiency with the improvised weapon.

I do want to be proficient with it, because the character in the movie seems to be, but its not neccesary.

So Unseen Crafter:

Effect: One invisible, mindless, shapeless servant

Too bad its shapeless, i like the idea of a mini, invisible factory worker in my healers kit...

[Segev]

Too bad its shapeless, i like the idea of a mini, invisible factory worker in my healers kit...

No reason not to fluff the spell effect that way as it operates in this particular magic item, then.

[The Kool]

Remember that this is your item, fluff and custom design it as you will. Spells and existing items are used as comparisons and inspiration, but items are frequently unique spins on things.

[Ravenv13]

No reason not to fluff the spell effect that way as it operates in this particular magic item, then.

I was literally about to post the updated stats, but now refluffed it that way. it is the Item and not the Spell.

Updated Stats:

Kit, Surgeon’s (Masterwork Healer's Kit)

Aura: faint conjuration (creation); CL: 3rd; Slot: none; Price: 8,700 gp; Weight: 3 lbs.

This hard box of sanitized bandages and medicinal herbs provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Heal checks. A Surgeon's Kit is exhausted after 10 uses.

When the Surgeon's Kit is closed while empty, the Surgeon's Kit will automatically restore itself to 10 uses. The Surgeon's Kit must be filled with 1/2 lb of medicinal herbs and 1/2 lb of cloth-like materials for the Surgeon's Kit to restore itself. The Surgeon's Kit uses these material to craft the bandages and medicines needed. The Surgeon's Kit makes Craft checks using the wielder's ranks in the Heal skill plus the wielder's Wisdom bonus (Craft DC 10). The Surgeon's Kit crafts more uses instantly.

The wielder of the Surgeon's Kit never takes a non-proficiency penalty when attacking with it.

Craft Wondrous Item, unseen servant, bestow weapon proficiency; Cost: 4,350 gp.

**Improvised Weapon Reference: Improvised Large Club: The Surgeon's Kit is an improvised large club that deals 1d8 bludgeoning damage, Criticals on a natural 20 for double damage, can be thrown with 10-ft increments, and is one-handed. (MW is the only reason its not a mere club)

Anything else seem "out of the norm"?

You guys are helping refine this item so much.

My last question, for future reference, when crafting wondrous items with multiple spells do you combine Spell Levels and Add Caster Level (for crafting cost).

The SRD for crafting use activated or continuous items says to use spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp. multiply cost if the original duration was rounds, minutes, or 10 minutes, but divide if 24 hr or greater. But do i use both spell levels and both caster levels for the spells, just one or the other? Or combine them and use a single price? I just dont understand that part. I also searched for that, but again no luck, it says to estimate with crafting cost, and i dont like to be greedy.

im still comparing to other items hence the 8,700gp (Vest of Surgery + my preference of the MW Healers Kit Price), instead of the 12,350 min crafting cost by my perception of RAW (Using Highest Spell Level x Caster Level).

I love crafting unique stuff, especially for other players. I know how to make items for the most part (including all advice, you have helped me get better), its just the crafting cost i get stuck on. I dont want other players or myself to over/under pay for something i made (unless the roll deems it).

Edited - I usually use the use-activated or continuous to make it more usable btw.

[Segev]

That looks ridiculously overpriced for what it does.

You've got a MW Tool (50 gp) that automates and accelerates something the wielder would otherwise be able to do themselves. A continuously-active unseen servant would be 2000 gp market value. If you were still basing this on fabricate, the price might be right, but it would be so ridiculously overpriced again for what it actually does as to be a bad idea.

If you follow the guidelines for expensive material components on use-activated, command-activated, and continuous items with unlimited uses, the gp cost is only 100x the price of the expensive component. The healer's kit is a 10-use MW Heal item; that's it, mechanically. 1 use is thus 5 gp, so if we treat that as an expensive component, it'd be 5*100 = 500 gp for an unlimited-use healer's kit. Stocking it with an internal tiny garden that magically grows all the herbs and cotton plants and all, and giving it tiny construct-workers (magical force-constructs like unseen servants or actual little farmer-puppets whose strings dangle from the tops of the compartments or robo-clank wind-up men....whatever you like) who farm, refine, and manufacture the goods would just be a fluff way of representing it. It's really not even worth using unseen servant at-will as a guideline, because it's so specialized.

Since you want to tie it to the user's Heal to make the restoration, have the user make a daily Heal check, and divide by 5 (round down). That's how many uses the workers manage to restore to it in a given day. e.g., if you make a Heal check at 17, it restores 3 uses that day. (This is based on some math regarding cost of the basic healer's kit, craft rules, etc., and is not 100% perfect, but comes out about right and makes for a usable item.)

We're now looking at a 500 gp item that provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Heal checks for treating and diagnosing injuries and ailments. Remember, you could get the same effect by just buying a non-magical healer's kit for 50 gp, then repeating after 10 uses. You'd have to buy it 10 times, using it 100 times, to spend the same amount.

Now, let's examine it a little closer: it requires a specific skill to use its actual magical function of restoring uses automatically. That's worth a 10% discount. 450 gp market price, now.

For 400 gp, you can have a +2 competence bonus magic item that applies to ALL Heal checks. So this item is still more expensive than that. It's advantage, however, is it's bonus type, which stacks with the competence bonus! So you can also add more bonuses to this item. You've currently got it priced at 4,350. Take the 450 for the above functions out, and that leaves 3,900 to play with. For 3600 gp, you can have a +6 competence bonus. For 300 gp, you can make it a masterwork improvised club (fluffed as "due to sturdy construction to protect the factory and farm inside"). This only gets you a +1 enhancement bonus to hit, but at least that means that when you use it as an improvized weapon, it only is a net -3 to hit from whatever your attack bonus usually would be with a club.

So, to summarise:

+2 circumstance bonus to heal checks.
+6 competence bonus to heal checks.
Recovers 1 use per 5 the user scores on a Heal check, 1/day. Maximum 10 uses stored.
-4 nonproficiency bonus to attack rolls for an improvised club.
+1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls for its sturdy, masterwork "improvised club" construction.

All for the same 4,350 gp you'd priced it at before.

edit to add:

My last question, for future reference, when crafting wondrous items with multiple spells do you combine Spell Levels and Add Caster Level (for crafting cost).Generally speaking, most magic items will have the same CL for all effects. So the highest CL does make all lower-level spell effects more expensive. The cost for adding to a slotted item (weapon, hand, torso, neck, feet, ring, etc.) is 1.5x the cost of every effect after the first. The "first" is always the most expensive BEFORE this multiplier. So a Bancho's Bandanna headpiece item that cast unseen servant and magic missile, both at 1st level, as a command action, fluffed as phantasmal gang members materializing around him to do his bidding and punch people for him, would be 1x1x1800 for one of the first level spells, and 1x1x1800x1.5 for the other, for a total of 1800+2700 = 3500 gp.

Slotless items have very different rules for stacking effects: Slotless items automatically double the price of the first effect, even if nothing stacks with it, because they're slotless so you are not consuming a body slot. The second most expensive effect (pre multiplier) is doubled (like all slotless effects) and then multiplied by .75 (or, net, multiplied by 1.5, since 2*.75=1.5). Every effect after that is doubled then halved (or left at its base price of what it would be on a slotted item). So a magical pearl which turns green in the presence of poison, glows blue in the presence of magic (with greater intensity the more powerful the aura), turns black and cold to the touch in the presence of undead (the colder, the more powerful the undead), and vibrates audibly and more energetically the closer it is to a secret door, would have detect secret doors or detect undead as its most expensive effect, for 1x1x2000x2 = 4000 gp market value. The other is the second-most-expensive effect, for 1x1x2000x2x.75 = 3000 gp additional. Detect poison and detect magic are both cantrips, so are 1x.5x2000x2x.5 = 1000 gp each (2000 gp together). So that's a 9000 gp slotless pearl with several low-level detection magics on it.

[Ravenv13]

That looks ridiculously overpriced for what it does.

You've got a MW Tool (50 gp) that automates and accelerates something the wielder would otherwise be able to do themselves. A continuously-active unseen servant would be 2000 gp market value. If you were still basing this on fabricate, the price might be right, but it would be so ridiculously overpriced again for what it actually does as to be a bad idea.

If you follow the guidelines for expensive material components on use-activated, command-activated, and continuous items with unlimited uses, the gp cost is only 100x the price of the expensive component. The healer's kit is a 10-use MW Heal item; that's it, mechanically. 1 use is thus 5 gp, so if we treat that as an expensive component, it'd be 5*100 = 500 gp for an unlimited-use healer's kit. Stocking it with an internal tiny garden that magically grows all the herbs and cotton plants and all, and giving it tiny construct-workers (magical force-constructs like unseen servants or actual little farmer-puppets whose strings dangle from the tops of the compartments or robo-clank wind-up men....whatever you like) who farm, refine, and manufacture the goods would just be a fluff way of representing it. It's really not even worth using unseen servant at-will as a guideline, because it's so specialized.

Since you want to tie it to the user's Heal to make the restoration, have the user make a daily Heal check, and divide by 5 (round down). That's how many uses the workers manage to restore to it in a given day. e.g., if you make a Heal check at 17, it restores 3 uses that day. (This is based on some math regarding cost of the basic healer's kit, craft rules, etc., and is not 100% perfect, but comes out about right and makes for a usable item.)

We're now looking at a 500 gp item that provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Heal checks for treating and diagnosing injuries and ailments. Remember, you could get the same effect by just buying a non-magical healer's kit for 50 gp, then repeating after 10 uses. You'd have to buy it 10 times, using it 100 times, to spend the same amount.

Now, let's examine it a little closer: it requires a specific skill to use its actual magical function of restoring uses automatically. That's worth a 10% discount. 450 gp market price, now.

For 400 gp, you can have a +2 competence bonus magic item that applies to ALL Heal checks. So this item is still more expensive than that. It's advantage, however, is it's bonus type, which stacks with the competence bonus! So you can also add more bonuses to this item. You've currently got it priced at 4,350. Take the 450 for the above functions out, and that leaves 3,900 to play with. For 3600 gp, you can have a +6 competence bonus. For 300 gp, you can make it a masterwork improvised club (fluffed as "due to sturdy construction to protect the factory and farm inside"). This only gets you a +1 enhancement bonus to hit, but at least that means that when you use it as an improvized weapon, it only is a net -3 to hit from whatever your attack bonus usually would be with a club.

So, to summarise:

+2 circumstance bonus to heal checks.
+6 competence bonus to heal checks.
Recovers 1 use per 5 the user scores on a Heal check , 1/day. Maximum 10 uses stored.
-4 nonproficiency bonus to attack rolls for an improvised club.
+1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls for its sturdy, masterwork "improvised club" construction.

All for the same 4,350 gp you'd priced it at before.

I love the Bold. Ive realized after multiple posts, that if i can get the bonus to heal, why not? The underlined piece is the only thing im not looking for, and i like the fluff idea (quite creative). However, as stated previously id like unlimited uses. What would that cost, even by the rules?

I almost always make wondrous items. Feat at 3rd level, so we make 3rd level min CL (rules are sketchy on CL). Means putting a 1st level spell in a Wondrous Item in our game is 6,000 gp... So, maybe our CL or interpretation of the rules is wrong?

You are being quite helpful, my GM is a stickler for rules. and As i stated, i also dont want to over/under pay.

Edited: Im also using highest spell levels.

[Ravenv13]

That looks ridiculously overpriced for what it does.
.
.
.
edit to add:
Generally speaking, most magic items will have the same CL for all effects. So the highest CL does make all lower-level spell effects more expensive. The cost for adding to a slotted item (weapon, hand, torso, neck, feet, ring, etc.) is 1.5x the cost of every effect after the first. The "first" is always the most expensive BEFORE this multiplier. So a Bancho's Bandanna headpiece item that cast unseen servant and magic missile, both at 1st level, as a command action, fluffed as phantasmal gang members materializing around him to do his bidding and punch people for him, would be 1x1x1800 for one of the first level spells, and 1x1x1800x1.5 for the other, for a total of 1800+2700 = 3500 gp.

Slotless items have very different rules for stacking effects: Slotless items automatically double the price of the first effect, even if nothing stacks with it, because they're slotless so you are not consuming a body slot. The second most expensive effect (pre multiplier) is doubled (like all slotless effects) and then multiplied by .75 (or, net, multiplied by 1.5, since 2*.75=1.5). Every effect after that is doubled then halved (or left at its base price of what it would be on a slotted item). So a magical pearl which turns green in the presence of poison, glows blue in the presence of magic (with greater intensity the more powerful the aura), turns black and cold to the touch in the presence of undead (the colder, the more powerful the undead), and vibrates audibly and more energetically the closer it is to a secret door, would have detect secret doors or detect undead as its most expensive effect, for 1x1x2000x2 = 4000 gp market value. The other is the second-most-expensive effect, for 1x1x2000x2x.75 = 3000 gp additional. Detect poison and detect magic are both cantrips, so are 1x.5x2000x2x.5 = 1000 gp each (2000 gp together). So that's a 9000 gp slotless pearl with several low-level detection magics on it.

So use highest CL, and determine price for each spell separately? So unseen crafter, and bestow weapon proficiency, both level 2 spells, continuous, and slotless equals?

Edited: My math is:

2nd level spell, Continuous: 2 x1 x2000gp = 4000gp

Slotless: x2 = 8000gp

x2.75 = 22,000gp

22,000gp? My original price was less than that, at 20k with change, but this is crafting cost now.

Edited again: Looked at SRD again, im pretty sure my reall mess up is the fact that the table is for Price and ive been using it for cost

SO price would bee 22K, and cost would be 11K?

Maybe bad math here: is it 8,000 x 2 = 16,000 gp, 16,000 x.75 = 12,000 gp? cause thats 10k diff.

In which case, Price is 12k, and Craft Cost is 6k?

[Ravenv13]

OK now that we got that all sorted, i believe this is the final product and should be much better.

Kit, Surgeon’s (Masterwork Healer's Kit)

Aura: faint conjuration (creation); CL: 1st; Slot: none; Price: 14,600 gp; Weight: 3 lbs.

This hard box of sanitized bandages and medicinal herbs provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Heal checks. A Surgeon's Kit is exhausted after 10 uses.

When the Surgeon's Kit is closed while empty, the Surgeon's Kit will automatically restore itself to 10 uses. The Surgeon's Kit must be filled with 1/2 lb of medicinal herbs and 1/2 lb of cloth-like materials for the Surgeon's Kit to restore itself. The Surgeon's Kit uses these material to craft the bandages and medicines needed. The Surgeon's Kit makes Craft checks using the wielder's ranks in the Heal skill plus the wielder's Wisdom bonus (Craft DC 10). The Surgeon's Kit crafts more uses instantly.

The wielder of the Surgeon's Kit gains a +5 competence bonus on Heal checks made with it, and never takes a non-proficiency penalty when attacking with it.

Craft Wondrous Item, unseen servant, bestow weapon proficiency; Cost: 7,300 gp.

**Improvised Weapon Reference: Improvised Large Club: The Surgeon's Kit is an improvised large club that deals 1d8 bludgeoning damage, Criticals on a natural 20 for double damage, can be thrown with 10ft increments, and is one-handed. (MW is the only reason its not a mere club)

**MW Weapon Reference: All Masterwork weapons gain a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

I appreciate all of your help, i should probably go price alot of my items... GM misunderstood rules the exact same way i did, and his opinion on the price/cost issue all good now.

[Segev]

I love the Bold. Ive realized after multiple posts, that if i can get the bonus to heal, why not? The underlined piece is the only thing im not looking for, and i like the fluff idea (quite creative). However, as stated previously id like unlimited uses. What would that cost, even by the rules?

I almost always make wondrous items. Feat at 3rd level, so we make 3rd level min CL (rules are sketchy on CL). Means putting a 1st level spell in a Wondrous Item in our game is 6,000 gp... So, maybe our CL or interpretation of the rules is wrong?

You are being quite helpful, my GM is a stickler for rules. and As i stated, i also dont want to over/under pay.

Edited: Im also using highest spell levels.The discount for requiring a skill check was only 50 gp. So remove the skill check, and just have the automated factory and farm do all the production at full replenishment rates, and it is 4,400 gp market value.

I only put the 1/day thing in to justify using the skill roll to maintain things. In reality, it's not needed.

To re-summarize:

+2 circumstance bonus to heal checks.
+6 competence bonus to heal checks.
-4 nonproficiency bonus to attack rolls for an improvised club.
+1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls for its sturdy, masterwork "improvised club" construction.
The mini-workers and farm inside are pure flavor. It doesn't require a Heal check to replenish; it just is a healer's kit with all the uses you could ever want because the wrappings, poultices, herbs, etc. are grown/produced on demand.
All for 4,400 gp. Most of that is the competence bonus.

You could get this without the competence bonus for 800 gp. That's the 500 gp for the self-replenishing healer's kit + 300 gp for a MW improvised club. The MW club thing doesn't follow the stacking rules given previously because it's not magic.


So use highest CL, and determine price for each spell separately? So unseen crafter, and bestow weapon proficiency, both level 2 spells, continuous, and slotless equals?

Edited: My math is:

2nd level spell, Continuous: 2 x1 x2000gp = 4000gpA 2nd level spell requires CL 3, so you're going to need 2x3x2000 = 12,000 gp.

Slotless: x2 => 24,000 gp.

I don't entirely follow what you're trying to do with this or the math for the rest of it, though. CAn you explain what it is this is meant to be? Is this part of the kit above, or a separate magic item?

edit: Okay, saw your latest post before this one.

The easiest way to make it "work" would be just to say it's built to be a MW club. Then, as long as you're proficient with clubs, you don't suffer nonproficiency penalties for it. I mean, you're commissioning a custom item, here.

That makes it the same price as before, in truth.

4,400 gp for the MW Club that is also a +6 competence, ever-full MW healer's kit (+2 circumstance on top of the +6 comptence), or as low as 800 gp for a MW club that is "merely" also a MW healer's kit (+2 circumstance bonus on healing checks, still) that is never out of items.

It's not really slotless; you're weilding it in your weapon hands, and you're not going to be fighting while performing Heal checks with it, anyway.

As a MW club, it's also got a +1 enhancement bonus to hit (but not damage). If you ever enchant it as a weapon, the +1 to hit and damage will overlap with this +1 to hit, not stack with it.

[Ravenv13]

The discount for requiring a skill check was only 50 gp. So remove the skill check, and just have the automated factory and farm do all the production at full replenishment rates, and it is 4,400 gp market value.

I only put the 1/day thing in to justify using the skill roll to maintain things. In reality, it's not needed.

To re-summarize:

+2 circumstance bonus to heal checks.
+6 competence bonus to heal checks.
-4 nonproficiency bonus to attack rolls for an improvised club.
+1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls for its sturdy, masterwork "improvised club" construction.
The mini-workers and farm inside are pure flavor. It doesn't require a Heal check to replenish; it just is a healer's kit with all the uses you could ever want because the wrappings, poultices, herbs, etc. are grown/produced on demand.
All for 4,400 gp. Most of that is the competence bonus.

You could get this without the competence bonus for 800 gp. That's the 500 gp for the self-replenishing healer's kit + 300 gp for a MW improvised club. The MW club thing doesn't follow the stacking rules given previously because it's not magic.

A 2nd level spell requires CL 3, so you're going to need 2x3x2000 = 12,000 gp.

Slotless: x2 => 24,000 gp.

I don't entirely follow what you're trying to do with this or the math for the rest of it, though. CAn you explain what it is this is meant to be? Is this part of the kit above, or a separate magic item?

edit: Okay, saw your latest post before this one.

The easiest way to make it "work" would be just to say it's built to be a MW club. Then, as long as you're proficient with clubs, you don't suffer nonproficiency penalties for it. I mean, you're commissioning a custom item, here.

That makes it the same price as before, in truth.

4,400 gp for the MW Club that is also a +6 competence, ever-full MW healer's kit (+2 circumstance on top of the +6 comptence), or as low as 800 gp for a MW club that is "merely" also a MW healer's kit (+2 circumstance bonus on healing checks, still) that is never out of items.

It's not really slotless; you're weilding it in your weapon hands, and you're not going to be fighting while performing Heal checks with it, anyway.

As a MW club, it's also got a +1 enhancement bonus to hit (but not damage). If you ever enchant it as a weapon, the +1 to hit and damage will overlap with this +1 to hit, not stack with it.

All right let me try to explain the CHARACTER CONCEPT, and see if it works.


Another player noticed i had to keep buying healer kits to use those abilities. He gave me the idea to make a reusable one.

We're in the middle of a war zone, for reasons im leaving unmentioned.


I am playing a character similar to Everest from Hotel Artemis


I'm also not wanting to just "cure" everyone, i play him like he wants to only use his skill to heal, but he has no problem with special equipment helping him. Overall, he wants to be the healer, not using the magic to heal others.

I mentioned he uses his skill and magic item to improve the skill itself, because the GM i play under uses active spellcasting and spell critical and fumble rules. fumble spell states that the spell can have an opposite effect on target? Heal = damage? So he doesnt like that chance.


And i only wanted a healer's kit because of the feats and because Everest literally beats 3 armored guys down with a portable med-kit, even throwing it at one point. so its kinda one of his things.

Again i wanted to play Everest, and Everest did that.


With the nanotechnology in the movie able to 3-D print a liver. im sure you could "fabricate" more bandages with that.


I have a pretty pointless reason for all this. Im not worried about min-maxing it all, i just want to play this character. And do so fairly.

I dont want the bandages to just appear, so when he said to make it uses materials, i actually really liked that. I like having to take the time to roleplay my Character. Again my entire reason for this is THE CHARACTER CONCEPT. Combat isnt even 50% of our games, and even if so why just min-max it all.

Even in the war zone we are in, theres more stealth and roleplay than combat. But lots of damaging/crippling traps. Obviously there is/will be combat. But again combat, and min-maxing to be the most efficient isnt the point.

And hopefully for the last time:

this is what my gm, my sorcerer partner, and i would like to do, and agreed upon. I did ask for just help on stating the item correctly, not for ways to create a better, but a new item/effect combination entirely

I did ask for just help on stating the item correctly, not for ways to create a better, but a new item/effect combination entirely. Although i will admit i did ask for help making it a melee weapon.

This is what the concept is and what i want to do, and in my opinion, thats the only reason necessary. Im struggling with understanding these pricing rules. And thats about all thats stopped me from just deleting the post after the judgement for an inefficient idea. Yes it can be done better, but this is what im doing.


Remember that this is your item, fluff and custom design it as you will. Spells and existing items are used as comparisons and inspiration, but items are frequently unique spins on things.
No reason not to fluff the spell effect that way as it operates in this particular magic item, then.

These and a few others are the most support ive gotten instead of "why not this?"

Again, im sorry for being rude. I need help, and am getting discouraged.

I do appreciate the help though. And am still taking the advice for the item into consideration.

Sorry again, and thank you for taking time to help me.

Edited: Even so, whats all this about discounts?

- Sean K Reynolds (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2k74y?Magic-Item-Creation-and-Caster-Level) stated that CL shouldnt affect the crafting unless it makes the item better? It will definitely affect dispel magic, but does it really affect it? He also stated that you can drop the CL of the item if wanted and the item is basically unchanged.

- And to be more specific, sorcerers arent able to cast 2nd level spells til 4th level. Yes that means they are CL 4th. But see above edit.

- I only mentioned the above, because i believe i heard that PF was based from 3.5 and altered. If im wrong tell me.

Edited Again. I reread that post. and im wrong. It is minimum CL 4th because of the class level needed.

[Segev]

Well, the reason I told you how to remove the “make a skill check to restore uses” was because you said you didn’t want that; you wanted unlimited uses.

The discount is because any item which requires a specific skill to be able to use it gets a 10% discount. If you had a temperamental flying carpet that needed the Ride skill to successfully use, it would be 10% cheaper than the listed cost for the normal item.

In the big post you quoted, I priced out the item as you described it, with two primary variants based on what you said you wanted and to let you make a choice. What you’ve described sounds very doable to me. It’s just way cheaper than your estimates make it!

The healer’s kit with infinite uses is 500 gp. Making it also a masterwork club is 300 gp more. This would give you +1 to hit and +2 to heal checks for 800 gp; as a great club, it’s damage would be 1d8. If it’s just a club, it’s 1d6. (Great clubs are martial weapons; clubs are simple. Design it so you’re proficient with it rather than paying extra to magic it into not giving you non proficiency penalties.)

If you also want +5 competence to healing from it, that’s an additional 2500 gp.

If you want to make the replacements yourself, the “farm” inside still can provide raw materials. This is all fluff.

Again, though, be not dismayed! What you’ve described is well within custom item design rules, and actually much cheaper than you seem to think!

[noob]

So use highest CL, and determine price for each spell separately? So unseen crafter, and bestow weapon proficiency, both level 2 spells, continuous, and slotless equals?

Edited: My math is:

2nd level spell, Continuous: 2 x1 x2000gp = 4000gp

Slotless: x2 = 8000gp

x2.75 = 22,000gp

22,000gp? My original price was less than that, at 20k with change, but this is crafting cost now.

Edited again: Looked at SRD again, im pretty sure my reall mess up is the fact that the table is for Price and ive been using it for cost

SO price would bee 22K, and cost would be 11K?

Maybe bad math here: is it 8,000 x 2 = 16,000 gp, 16,000 x.75 = 12,000 gp? cause thats 10k diff.

In which case, Price is 12k, and Craft Cost is 6k?
You do not need continuous use unseen crafter: you need it only once a day for having always 3 unseen crafters.

[Ravenv13]

Well, the reason I told you how to remove the “make a skill check to restore uses” was because you said you didn’t want that; you wanted unlimited uses.

The discount is because any item which requires a specific skill to be able to use it gets a 10% discount. If you had a temperamental flying carpet that needed the Ride skill to successfully use, it would be 10% cheaper than the listed cost for the normal item.

In the big post you quoted, I priced out the item as you described it, with two primary variants based on what you said you wanted and to let you make a choice. What you’ve described sounds very doable to me. It’s just way cheaper than your estimates make it!

The healer’s kit with infinite uses is 500 gp. Making it also a masterwork club is 300 gp more. This would give you +1 to hit and +2 to heal checks for 800 gp; as a great club, it’s damage would be 1d8. If it’s just a club, it’s 1d6. (Great clubs are martial weapons; clubs are simple. Design it so you’re proficient with it rather than paying extra to magic it into not giving you non proficiency penalties.)

If you also want +5 competence to healing from it, that’s an additional 2500 gp.

If you want to make the replacements yourself, the “farm” inside still can provide raw materials. This is all fluff.

Again, though, be not dismayed! What you’ve described is well within custom item design rules, and actually much cheaper than you seem to think!

This last line, is very appreciated. I love GITP because the people on here are pretty understanding and friendly.

I have noted the discount for items requiring a skill check.

I see how the infinite uses works now. You use the skill bonus magic rules instead of refilling the healers kit.

You are using the creating new weapon rules, with the design points, adding a healers kit as a tool? I didnt think of that...

You are correct in all of this. My bad for misunderstanding.

Now you got that line about the replacements backwards. I want the kit to make the replacements, and i wanna provide the raw materials.

Is there anyway to still incorporate that into giving the +2 competence bonus?

Again, you guys are awesome.

Edited: I forgot that i highlighted the proficiency part. Pugilist is a 3rd party class and has only simple weapon proficiency, however: a large club deals 1d8 instead pf 1d6, correct? I was gonna size the "weapon" to my characters "powerful build size".


Proud to Present:
Ring of Physique

Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Slot ring; Price 12,000 gp; Weight —

This ring increases the wearer's muscle mass. While equipped, the wearer is treated as one size larger whenever beneficial. Whenever the wearer is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for a Combat Maneuver Bonus or Combat Maneuver Defense (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the wearer is treated as one size larger if doing so is beneficial to the wearer. The wearer is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a the wearer’s special attacks based on size can affect him. The wearer can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. The wearer's space and reach remain those of a creature of its actual size. This size increase is magical and does not stack.

Forge Ring, Enlarge Person; Cost 6,000 gp, XP Cost: 240.

Edited, again: And Ive recently realized that XP cost doesnt exist anymore. So thats still there because i wanted to quote part of the post, not edit it and then quote it.

[Ravenv13]

Okay, so i forgot the creating new weapon rules, lots of information swimming around up in the noggin.

Healer's Club (6 DP Total)

Cost: 156 gp
Weight: 7 lbs.
Damage: 1d8 (medium)
Critical: x3
Type: bludgeoning
Range Increment: 10 ft. (thrown)
Category: one-handed
Proficiency: simple
Weapon Groups: hammers

The weapon looks like a bulky Healer's Kit made of steel with reinforcment around each edge and corner, and can be used as such. The Healer's Club is dense enough to be used as a melee weapon, yet still light enough to be thrown.

Aerodynamic (1 DP): 10 ft (Thrown)

Improved Critical Multiplier (3 DP): (x2 to x3).

Improved Damage (3 DP): (1d3 to 1d4, 1d4 to 1d6, 1d6 to 1d8).

Tool (0 DP): MW Healer's Kit; +300 gp and +4 lbs.

And:

Combat Surgeon’s Kit

Wondrous Item

Masterwork Healer's Club

Aura: faint conjuration (creation); CL: 1st; Slot: -; Price: 5,612 gp; Weight: 7 lbs.

This masterwork healer's club provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Heal checks made with it. A Combat Surgeon's Kit is exhausted after 10 uses.

You can make a Survival check (DC 15) to restore the uses to the Healer's Kit.

The wielder of this masterwork healer's club gains a +5 competence bonus on Heal checks made with it.

Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 2,806.
Again, you guys are so helpful.

[Segev]

I'm actually not touching any "creating new weapons" rules. I'm looking at "big, heavy case" and saying, "Sure, if you spend the 300 gp to make that a masterwork weapon, calling it a masterwork club and using masterwork club stats should be fine.)

I'm going to repeat back what I understand you to be asking for, and avoiding any mechanical discussion at this time, just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Because while I think I am, some of your responses to what I'm saying sound like you're not liking what I've put forth as options, which suggests to me that either I don't understand what you're asking for as well as I think I do, or that I'm doing a bad job conveying what I mean and where my numbers are coming from. I want to make sure it's the latter and not the former before I try again to ennumerate the build and rules I'm suggesting.


What you want is:

A healer's kit (just like the standard 50 gp one in the SRD) that has unlimited uses as long as you put raw materials (herbs, cloth, etc.) into it, so it transforms the raw materials into the stuff that you pull out of the kit for each use. You want to just put raw materials in whenever the 10 uses are used up. (Query: do you care if you have to pay for the raw materials? How much do you expect those to cost compared to just buying a new, non-magical kit each time the 10 uses of a current one are used up?) You do not particularly want to have to make a skill check for this replenishment, but don't mind if you have to.

You also want to be able to bludgeon people with the kit, using it like a weapon, without suffering nonproficiency penalties.


Is this accurate? If not, what am I missing or misreading?

[Ravenv13]

I'm actually not touching any "creating new weapons" rules. I'm looking at "big, heavy case" and saying, "Sure, if you spend the 300 gp to make that a masterwork weapon, calling it a masterwork club and using masterwork club stats should be fine.)

I'm going to repeat back what I understand you to be asking for, and avoiding any mechanical discussion at this time, just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Because while I think I am, some of your responses to what I'm saying sound like you're not liking what I've put forth as options, which suggests to me that either I don't understand what you're asking for as well as I think I do, or that I'm doing a bad job conveying what I mean and where my numbers are coming from. I want to make sure it's the latter and not the former before I try again to ennumerate the build and rules I'm suggesting.


What you want is:

A healer's kit (just like the standard 50 gp one in the SRD) that has unlimited uses as long as you put raw materials (herbs, cloth, etc.) into it, so it transforms the raw materials into the stuff that you pull out of the kit for each use. You want to just put raw materials in whenever the 10 uses are used up. (Query: do you care if you have to pay for the raw materials? How much do you expect those to cost compared to just buying a new, non-magical kit each time the 10 uses of a current one are used up?) You do not particularly want to have to make a skill check for this replenishment, but don't mind if you have to.

You also want to be able to bludgeon people with the kit, using it like a weapon, without suffering nonproficiency penalties.


Is this accurate? If not, what am I missing or misreading?


A healer's kit (just like the standard 50 gp one in the SRD

MW Healer's Kit grants the +2 to Heal right?
If not then, Correct just just a plain Healer's Kit.


unlimited uses as long as you put raw materials (herbs, cloth, etc.) into it, so it transforms the raw materials into the stuff that you pull out of the kit for each use. You want to just put raw materials in whenever the 10 uses are used up.

Correct Again.


Query: do you care if you have to pay for the raw materials? How much do you expect those to cost compared to just buying a new, non-magical kit each time the 10 uses of a current one are used up?

Id actually like to pay for them or roll to "find" them. Hence the Survival check.

However, if paying, i would like to pay at least 1/5 the price of normal non-magical (mw?) healer's kit, or 10 gp, with 2/5 the price at 20 gp witht the most id like to pay.


You also want to be able to bludgeon people with the kit, using it like a weapon, without suffering nonproficiency penalties.

Correct again, and i realized that most of that is all fluff hence the drastic changes.


Sure, if you spend the 300 gp to make that a masterwork weapon, calling it a masterwork club and using masterwork club stats should be fine.

Yeah, i can rationalize that too, but i want a "legal" way. My GM is a stickler for rules, and there isn't a rule like that.


"If you can find a legal way to do it, then its allowed, if its not RAW, it isnt." - My GM

So, im trying to use any "published rules" compatible with PF to figure it out. Dont get me wrong though, i love my GM. He makes fun and in depth games, he just thinks a game should follow its rules.

[The Kool]

Have this rule for your DM:

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.

The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item.

Surgeon's Vest is a very similar item, so your price should be very close to the price of that item. Up if you add benefits, down if you make it more difficult/conditional to use (like requiring a skill check to refill it).

[Ravenv13]

Just to clarify, you can make it a weapon using the wondrous item crafting? Can you elaborate further?

Like which price table should i use?

And Segev, i found the source of all my problems with this item! i was using fluff to make stats instead of fluffing the stats.

[Segev]

With what weapons is your character proficient? I can probably justify a weapon-base with a built-in healer's kit if we pick the right base weapon shape. Maces and clubs seem the most obvious.

This next part is analysis of what the mundane, non-magical approach to your healer's kit would be.
If you were mundanely crafting your own healer's kits, the typical raw materials cost would be 1/3 the base price, which is less than the 2/5 you were considering your maximum but more than the 1/5 you were considering the minimum. It'd genuinely be your DM's call what the DC to gather those materials via Survival would be rather than paying for them, yourself. It costs 5 sp for 1 day's trail rations, and Survival can cover that with a DC 10 check, +2 per additional person. It's about 167 sp to buy the raw materials to craft a basic healer's kit.

"Earning" 167 sp worth of forrage by Survival would be 34 person-days' worth of rations equivalent (rounding up to 170 sp for the nearest multiple of 5). The near-impossible task of finding all the raw materials you'd need in one day of half-speed travel would be DC 8+2*34 = 76! So that's probably not happening. Doing it in two days would be 8+2*34/2 = DC 42. Still high. Doing it in 3 days would be 8+2*34/3 = 31 (rounded up). Four days: 25. Five days: 22. Six days: 20. Seven days: 18.

So a DC 18 Survival check every day for a week would get you enough material to craft your Healer's Kit.

The actual Craft DC is probably 20; it's a masterwork item. At 500 sp market value, if you ONLY make the DC 20, it'll be 20 (result) * 20 (DC) = 400 sp of progress per week, for a total of 1.25 weeks. If you can make a 25 on your check against the DC 20, it actually will take only 1 week.
So, for two weeks: 1 week of daily DC 18 Survival checks, and 1 week of DC 25 Craft checks, you can make your own healer's kit, from scratch, without spending an actual coin of any sort.

You could actually manage to not have to buy food for the week of Survival checks if you make it DC 20, adding "feed myself" as one more person to the total.

Restoring a single use from the kit would take 1/5 this time, so 1/5 of 14 days, or approximately 3 days of work.


This isn't nearly what you want: you want much more instant restoration. Still, even with a magic item that instantly did the craft work, that's a week of DC 18 survival checks to get 10 uses' worth of raw materials, or 1.4 days for a single use.

Thus, my suggestion goes back to the 500 gp version of a magical healer's kit which never runs out of uses. You can absolutely fluff it as taking raw materials to put into it to restore it when empty, and I'd tie that to a DC 18 survival skill check made to gather the herbs and such, with an option to spend 17 gp buying the raw materials, instead. This should qualify it for a 10% discount, making it 450 gp market price.

This would be 10 uses of it, giving +2 circumstance bonuses to Heal checks, before you need to put in raw materials. (Note: this is far fewer raw materials than "should" be required, since it is DC 18 every day for a week to gather enough raw materials to do it mundanely, but it's magic, and this will keep the flavor, meet the rules requirements for the 10% discount, and be more fun than making you take a week of downtime each time.) Getting the raw materials takes a DC 18 survival check and one day of forraging, or buying them for 17 gp.

Before we look into using it as a weapon, does this sound like what you'd like it to be and do insofar as acting like a healer's kit?

[Ravenv13]

With what weapons is your character proficient? I can probably justify a weapon-base with a built-in healer's kit if we pick the right base weapon shape. Maces and clubs seem the most obvious.

This next part is analysis of what the mundane, non-magical approach to your healer's kit would be.
If you were mundanely crafting your own healer's kits, the typical raw materials cost would be 1/3 the base price, which is less than the 2/5 you were considering your maximum but more than the 1/5 you were considering the minimum. It'd genuinely be your DM's call what the DC to gather those materials via Survival would be rather than paying for them, yourself. It costs 5 sp for 1 day's trail rations, and Survival can cover that with a DC 10 check, +2 per additional person. It's about 167 sp to buy the raw materials to craft a basic healer's kit.

"Earning" 167 sp worth of forrage by Survival would be 34 person-days' worth of rations equivalent (rounding up to 170 sp for the nearest multiple of 5). The near-impossible task of finding all the raw materials you'd need in one day of half-speed travel would be DC 8+2*34 = 76! So that's probably not happening. Doing it in two days would be 8+2*34/2 = DC 42. Still high. Doing it in 3 days would be 8+2*34/3 = 31 (rounded up). Four days: 25. Five days: 22. Six days: 20. Seven days: 18.

So a DC 18 Survival check every day for a week would get you enough material to craft your Healer's Kit.

The actual Craft DC is probably 20; it's a masterwork item. At 500 sp market value, if you ONLY make the DC 20, it'll be 20 (result) * 20 (DC) = 400 sp of progress per week, for a total of 1.25 weeks. If you can make a 25 on your check against the DC 20, it actually will take only 1 week.
So, for two weeks: 1 week of daily DC 18 Survival checks, and 1 week of DC 25 Craft checks, you can make your own healer's kit, from scratch, without spending an actual coin of any sort.

You could actually manage to not have to buy food for the week of Survival checks if you make it DC 20, adding "feed myself" as one more person to the total.

Restoring a single use from the kit would take 1/5 this time, so 1/5 of 14 days, or approximately 3 days of work.


This isn't nearly what you want: you want much more instant restoration. Still, even with a magic item that instantly did the craft work, that's a week of DC 18 survival checks to get 10 uses' worth of raw materials, or 1.4 days for a single use.

Thus, my suggestion goes back to the 500 gp version of a magical healer's kit which never runs out of uses. You can absolutely fluff it as taking raw materials to put into it to restore it when empty, and I'd tie that to a DC 18 survival skill check made to gather the herbs and such, with an option to spend 17 gp buying the raw materials, instead. This should qualify it for a 10% discount, making it 450 gp market price.

This would be 10 uses of it, giving +2 circumstance bonuses to Heal checks, before you need to put in raw materials. (Note: this is far fewer raw materials than "should" be required, since it is DC 18 every day for a week to gather enough raw materials to do it mundanely, but it's magic, and this will keep the flavor, meet the rules requirements for the 10% discount, and be more fun than making you take a week of downtime each time.) Getting the raw materials takes a DC 18 survival check and one day of forraging, or buying them for 17 gp.

Before we look into using it as a weapon, does this sound like what you'd like it to be and do insofar as acting like a healer's kit?

So this?
This masterwork healer's kit gives a +2 circumstance bonuses to Heal checks made while using it. This masterwork healer's kit has 10 uses before you need to put in raw materials. Getting the raw materials takes a DC 18 survival check and one day of foraging, or buying them for 17 gp.
- (Note: this is far fewer raw materials than "should" be required, since it is DC 18 every day for a week to gather enough raw materials to do it mundanely)

The wielder of this masterwork healer's kit gains a +5 competence bonus on Heal checks made with it. Price is 450 gp + 2,500 gp correct?


Before we look into using it as a weapon, does this sound like what you'd like it to be and do insofar as acting like a healer's kit?

The above, absolutely.


With what weapons is your character proficient? I can probably justify a weapon-base with a built-in healer's kit if we pick the right base weapon shape. Maces and clubs seem the most obvious.

All simple weapons. And unarmed weapons. And unarmed.


EDITED: Im 7th level, wealth is not rare.

[Segev]

So this?
This masterwork healer's kit gives a +2 circumstance bonuses to Heal checks made while using it. This masterwork healer's kit has 10 uses before you need to put in raw materials. Getting the raw materials takes a DC 18 survival check and one day of foraging, or buying them for 17 gp.
- (Note: this is far fewer raw materials than "should" be required, since it is DC 18 every day for a week to gather enough raw materials to do it mundanely)

The wielder of this masterwork healer's kit gains a +5 competence bonus on Heal checks made with it. Price is 450 gp + 2,500 gp correct?



The above, absolutely.Okay, you've got that priced right. 450 gp+2,500 gp = 2,950 gp total for +2 circumstance bonus and +5 competence bonus (total: +7 bonus from this item), but you must spend 17 gp or make a DC 18 day-long Survival check to procure raw materials to put in after every 10 uses. (Obviously, you can stockpile raw materials beforehand.)




All simple weapons. And unarmed weapons. And unarmed.Alright. A club form-factor is probably the best we can do, then. Start with a club shape, then refine it to have multiple cabinets and drawers which seal up tightly until deliberately opened, and reinforced and padded internally to handle drops, jars, and slams into things. This is now a masterwork club, on top of being a storage device for healer's kit materials. As a masterwork club, it costs 300 gp (MW weapon) + 0 gp (club), does 1d6 base damage, is one-handed by default (but can be wielded two-handed if you want to for style and/or +1.5x str mod to damage instead of just +str mod), and offers a +1 enhancement bonus to hit (but not to damage).

This 300 gp MW weapon is also a 2,950 gp magic item that is unrelated in function to its weapon properties. Add the two together to get 3,450 gp total market value.


The rules explanation is roughly as follows:

"It's a club that has been masterworked as a weapon, and designed with storage compartments. These storage compartments that are padded and shock-resistant. A magical healer's kit was then installed into these compartments, taking up all their space and being permanently affixed."

The rules support making masterwork clubs. Adding storage compartments to them is a little odd, but not against the rules. The magical healer's kit is a legal magic item. Storing it permanently in the compartments works.

[Ravenv13]

Okay, you've got that priced right. 450 gp+2,500 gp = 2,950 gp total for +2 circumstance bonus and +5 competence bonus (total: +7 bonus from this item), but you must spend 17 gp or make a DC 18 day-long Survival check to procure raw materials to put in after every 10 uses. (Obviously, you can stockpile raw materials beforehand.)

Alright. A club form-factor is probably the best we can do, then. Start with a club shape, then refine it to have multiple cabinets and drawers which seal up tightly until deliberately opened, and reinforced and padded internally to handle drops, jars, and slams into things. This is now a masterwork club, on top of being a storage device for healer's kit materials. As a masterwork club, it costs 300 gp (MW weapon) + 0 gp (club), does 1d6 base damage, is one-handed by default (but can be wielded two-handed if you want to for style and/or +1.5x str mod to damage instead of just +str mod), and offers a +1 enhancement bonus to hit (but not to damage).

This 300 gp MW weapon is also a 2,950 gp magic item that is unrelated in function to its weapon properties. Add the two together to get 3,450 gp total market value.

The rules explanation is roughly as follows:

"It's a club that has been masterworked as a weapon, and designed with storage compartments. These storage compartments that are padded and shock-resistant. A magical healer's kit was then installed into these compartments, taking up all their space and being permanently affixed."

The rules support making masterwork clubs. Adding storage compartments to them is a little odd, but not against the rules. The magical healer's kit is a legal magic item. Storing it permanently in the compartments works.

I love it. I might use it again separate from this character, it sounds like a pretty cool baseball bat.


This 300 gp MW weapon is also a 2,950 gp magic item that is unrelated in function to its weapon properties. Add the two together to get 3,450 gp total market value.

Just to inform you: The math is 300 + 2,950 = 3250

Combat Surgeon’s Kit

Minor Magic Weapon

Cost: 3,250 gp
Weight: 3 lbs.
Damage: 1d6 (M)
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeoning
Range Increment: 10 ft. (Thrown)
Category: One-handed
Proficiency: Simple
Weapon Groups: Hammers, Tribal

Aura: faint transmutation; CL: 3rd; Slot: -; Price: 3,250 gp; Weight: 3 lbs.

Description: This club has been masterworked as a weapon, and designed as a small crate and an attached handle, containing storage compartments. These storage compartments are padded and shock-resistant. A magical healer's kit was then installed into these compartments, taking up the storage space and is permanently affixed.

Magic Qualities:

The Combat Surgeon's Kit gives a +2 circumstance bonuses to Heal checks made while using it. The Combat Surgeon's Kit has 10 uses before you need to put in raw materials. Getting the raw materials takes a DC 18 survival check and one day of foraging, or buying them for 17 gp.
- (Note: this is far fewer raw materials than "should" be required, since it is DC 18 every day for a week to gather enough raw materials to do it mundanely)

The wielder of the Combat Surgeon's Kit gains a +5 competence bonus on Heal checks made with it. The wielder also has a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls made with the Combat Surgeon's Kit.

Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 1,706 gp.

So anything im misunderstanding or out of place?

I plan on starting a new thread on help stating a non-magic armor and converting it to a magic armor as well (but this time the main point is the non-magical item). Unless i should do it here?

Segev, The Kool, Kaskus, noob, exelsisxax, I wanna thank you all for putting up with me and helping me make this.

[Segev]

I love it. I might use it again separate from this character, it sounds like a pretty cool baseball bat.:smallcool:


Just to inform you: The math is 300 + 2,950 = 3250<Count Olaf, blatantly lying> I said 3250.


Combat Surgeon’s Kit

Minor Magic Weapon

Cost: 3,250 gp
Weight: 3 lbs.
Damage: 1d6 (M)
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeoning
Range Increment: 10 ft. (Thrown)
Category: One-handed
Proficiency: Simple
Weapon Groups: Hammers, Tribal

Aura: faint transmutation; CL: 3rd; Slot: -; Price: 3,250 gp; Weight: 3 lbs.

Description: This club has been masterworked as a weapon, and designed as a small crate and an attached handle, containing storage compartments. These storage compartments are padded and shock-resistant. A magical healer's kit was then installed into these compartments, taking up the storage space and is permanently affixed.

Magic Qualities:

The Combat Surgeon's Kit gives a +2 circumstance bonuses to Heal checks made while using it. The Combat Surgeon's Kit has 10 uses before you need to put in raw materials. Getting the raw materials takes a DC 18 survival check and one day of foraging, or buying them for 17 gp.
- (Note: this is far fewer raw materials than "should" be required, since it is DC 18 every day for a week to gather enough raw materials to do it mundanely)

The wielder of the Combat Surgeon's Kit gains a +5 competence bonus on Heal checks made with it. The wielder also has a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls made with the Combat Surgeon's Kit.

Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 1,706 gp.

So anything im misunderstanding or out of place? Looks good to me. I think you've got it!


I plan on starting a new thread on help stating a non-magic armor and converting it to a magic armor as well (but this time the main point is the non-magical item). Unless i should do it here? It wouldn't be out of place here, but it would also be appropriate in its own thread. So: up to you. It might catch new eyes as a new thread. If you want people to follow from this thread to the new one, posting a link to the new thread in a post in this one would probably work as well as posting the new item in this thread.


Segev, The Kool, Kaskus, noob, exelsisxax, I wanna thank you all for putting up with me and helping me make this.You're quite welcome.

[Ravenv13]

Alrighty then, i posted my stat concept of the Big Daddy Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583299-Daddy-s-Home-(Big-Daddy-Armor-Stat-Thread))

[The Kool]

Very few questions are ever stupid questions. Happy to be of service.

[Ravenv13]

Undead Cohort Optimization (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586193-Undead-Cohort-(Awakened-Vorpal-Knight)&p=23856401#post23856401)