Magic weapons and resistance/immunity

[dejarnjc]

Hello all,

Has anyone ever done away with having magic weapons overcome creatures' damage immunities and resistances?

I'm considering doing this as I enjoy handing out magic items but also enjoy using creatures with resistances or immunities. I'm also going to give more creatures vulnerability (though I'm going to change how vulnerability works in my game so that players will just add a number of d6s equal to the degree of vulnerability, determined by me, to an attack).

I love how only silver weapons can hurt lycanthropes. I like the interaction between fey and iron. I find myself mildly annoyed when undead aren't more hurt by radiant damage or that a +1 generic magic sword is as effective against a fire elemental as it is against a fire wolf

I would of course inform my players first.

[Unoriginal]

Hello all,

Has anyone ever done away with having magic weapons overcome creatures' damage immunities and resistances?

I like magic weapons to matter and feel powerful, so I didn't.

[JackPhoenix]

"Hey, Fighter, remember that one thing you're supposed to be good at, i.e. combat? Well, screw you, you now do only half damage, or none at all, even though you have the artifact sword of uberness. What? No, Wizard, your spells still work just fine, don't worry."

[Unoriginal]

"Hey, Fighter, remember that one thing you're supposed to be good at, i.e. combat? Well, screw you, you now do only half damage, or none at all, even though you have the artifact sword of uberness. What? No, Wizard, your spells still work just fine, don't worry."

TBF Fighters and Barbarians still do good against enemies with resistance ('cause their CR is calculated as if they had their HPs x2 or x1.5). The magic weapons are still getting screwed, though.

And then there the ones who are immune to non-magic physical damage...

[dejarnjc]

"Hey, Fighter, remember that one thing you're supposed to be good at, i.e. combat? Well, screw you, you now do only half damage, or none at all, even though you have the artifact sword of uberness. What? No, Wizard, your spells still work just fine, don't worry."

Hmm so okay, a few things to consider:
1) A lot of creatures are resistant or immune to a good number of spells (or have advantage on saving throws) so IMO resistances we're intended to be a thing for some encounters.
2) I try to encourage focus and maximize fun. IMO it's fun to receive magic weapons and items. It's also fun to overcome challenges. Resistances and immunities can be a challenge to overcome through specific weapon types or materials (knowledge of which will be provided to players in game).
3) The scenario I'm envisioning is similar to this. Players encounter a lycan as part of a combat encounter and realize their magic weapons do little/nothing. Lycan escapes for plot reasons. Players research how to kill lycans. Players go silver their weapons and acquire silver ammo, go find lycan and kill it or whatever. Now they're prepared for future ones. I'm also envisioning things like weapons soaked in garlic juice bypassing vampires resistances and piercing damage from wood weapons doing the same. It'll be case by case though with some vulnerabilities mixed in where appropriate. Honestly I'm more concerned that this may be an overall buff to melee characters if the players do the right prep work.

[Keravath]

There are already a number of creatures that are just resistant to slashing, piercing or bludgeoning damage whether the source is magical or not. (I hate running into them when I have a magical weapon). Barbarians are one example. When raging they are resistant to those forms of damage, magical or not.

One of the changes from previous editions (which I like) is that resistance/immunity used to sometimes depend on the power of the weapon. e.g. resistant to weapon damage less than +2, +3 ... etc, not damaged by a weapon less than +3 etc.

The current system is simpler and easier to implement since you don't need to worry about the exact modifiers of a particular weapon when assigning damage ... all you need to know is damage type and magical or not.

[dejarnjc]

There are already a number of creatures that are just resistant to slashing, piercing or bludgeoning damage whether the source is magical or not. (I hate running into them when I have a magical weapon). Barbarians are one example. When raging they are resistant to those forms of damage, magical or not.

Unfortunately this is extraordinarily rare for non-PC creatures. The only ones I could find are swarms, some oozes, and the Demi lich. I probably missed one or two though.

[sathya]

Magical immunity means the bonus of magical weapons and spells is reduced to 0. Each weapon has it written weather its magical or physical. So weapon does not have to be physical. Physical immunity does nothing to magical weapons.

[JackPhoenix]

Hmm so okay, a few things to consider:
1) A lot of creatures are resistant or immune to a good number of spells (or have advantage on saving throws) so IMO resistances we're intended to be a thing for some encounters.

There's a difference between casters and martials there: Enemy has advantage on saving throws? The caster can use spells with attack rolls. The enemy is resistant to immune to one damage type? The caster can use different damage type. Martials can't do that. They can't use saves instead of attacks, they can't suddenly do a completely different damage type if the target is immune to physical damage, they can't summon things to fight for them, buff their own team or change the battlefield the way casters can. They do have *some* options, but those are generally nowhere near as powerful as their usual attacks. Casters may (or may not) suffer some lost of effectivity too, but not to such a degree.


2) I try to encourage focus and maximize fun. IMO it's fun to receive magic weapons and items. It's also fun to overcome challenges. Resistances and immunities can be a challenge to overcome through specific weapon types or materials (knowledge of which will be provided to players in game).

It's not fun going "Gee, I wonder what contrived solution I'll have to use this time to be useful" every time the party encounters some new creature with damage resistance. You either supply them with hints and required equipment up front, negating the point of a challenge, or the affected players will switch characters to casters after about third time they'll have to jump through the loops to be able to hurt an enemy.


3) The scenario I'm envisioning is similar to this. Players encounter a lycan as part of a combat encounter and realize their magic weapons do little/nothing. Lycan escapes for plot reasons. Players research how to kill lycans. Players go silver their weapons and acquire silver ammo, go find lycan and kill it or whatever. Now they're prepared for future ones. I'm also envisioning things like weapons soaked in garlic juice bypassing vampires resistances and piercing damage from wood weapons doing the same. It'll be case by case though with some vulnerabilities mixed in where appropriate. Honestly I'm more concerned that this may be an overall buff to melee characters if the players do the right prep work.

Plot reasons. Yeah, there's your problem. Without GM fiat, there's not much of a reason to do research. What happens is that when the players encounter a lycanthrope, the casters will kill it with their spells, while fighters can only twidle their thumbs if they don't have the specific gear they'll need. If you're concerned this is a *buff* to melee characters, you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Rukelnikov]

Hello all,

Has anyone ever done away with having magic weapons overcome creatures' damage immunities and resistances?

I'm considering doing this as I enjoy handing out magic items but also enjoy using creatures with resistances or immunities. I'm also going to give more creatures vulnerability (though I'm going to change how vulnerability works in my game so that players will just add a number of d6s equal to the degree of vulnerability, determined by me, to an attack).

I love how only silver weapons can hurt lycanthropes. I like the interaction between fey and iron. I find myself mildly annoyed when undead aren't more hurt by radiant damage or that a +1 generic magic sword is as effective against a fire elemental as it is against a fire wolf

I would of course inform my players first.

I did it out of necessity, the CR system isnt balanced with multiclassing, feat, and splatbook + UA stuff in mind.

It work perfectly, tough monsters were tough, end of story.

[dejarnjc]

There's a difference between casters and martials there: Enemy has advantage on saving throws? The caster can use spells with attack rolls. The enemy is resistant to immune to one damage type? The caster can use different damage type. Martials can't do that. They can't use saves instead of attacks, they can't suddenly do a completely different damage type if the target is immune to physical damage, they can't summon things to fight for them, buff their own team or change the battlefield the way casters can. They do have *some* options, but those are generally nowhere near as powerful as their usual attacks. Casters may (or may not) suffer some lost of effectivity too, but not to such a degree.



It's not fun going "Gee, I wonder what contrived solution I'll have to use this time to be useful" every time the party encounters some new creature with damage resistance. You either supply them with hints and required equipment up front, negating the point of a challenge, or the affected players will switch characters to casters after about third time they'll have to jump through the loops to be able to hurt an enemy.



Plot reasons. Yeah, there's your problem. Without GM fiat, there's not much of a reason to do research. What happens is that when the players encounter a lycanthrope, the casters will kill it with their spells, while fighters can only twidle their thumbs if they don't have the specific gear they'll need. If you're concerned this is a *buff* to melee characters, you have no idea what you're talking about.

You're a bit hostile but I'll respond anyway.
1) This is primarily to give martials more options. Yeah it might be binary at times but at least now they'll occasionally have a choice of resisted damage versus full damage versus full damage + vulnerability damage. These certainly wouldn't be the only types of creatures I threw at em but they would pop up from time to time.

2) In regards to whether or not it is fun that's something only my players and I can weigh in on unless others have actually tried this.

3) Unlikely the casters could deal with the threats on their own and if they tried then this puts their lives more at risk. As the casters are the only threat, they'd die first if the party engaged lycans without prepping. I would provide plenty of hints that silvered weapons are needed (hell, the players would know anyway since I would tell them about this rule first). I balance encounters for a group of 4-5 and haven't had more than 2 full casters in a party yet.



*Edit* just to point out that a lot of creatures have bludgeoning, piercing, slashing resistance but not immunity so martials would almost never be completely gimped even if they did rush in all the time without prepping.

[Christian]

One issue people had with this in previous editions was the 'golf bag' playstyle that often evolved.

"Hmm, looks like a fey to me."
"Yessir, I agree."
"Alright, caddy, hand me my cold iron longsword."
"The +2 or flaming?"

[thereaper]

It seems pretty silly, because martials are assumed to have magic weapons past a certain level anyway.

Yes, I know they say magic items are not assumed, but magic weapons are. It's very obvious, because golems are immune to nonmagical weapons, and as we all know, golems are supposed to be anti-spellcaster enemies. It is not possible for them to fulfill their intended role unless magic weapons are in play by the time they start showing up.

[Rukelnikov]

One issue people had with this in previous editions was the 'golf bag' playstyle that often evolved.

"Hmm, looks like a fey to me."
"Yessir, I agree."
"Alright, caddy, hand me my cold iron longsword."
"The +2 or flaming?"

Never leave home without your +1 Adamantine Sure-Striking Morningstar

[dejarnjc]

One issue people had with this in previous editions was the 'golf bag' playstyle that often evolved.

"Hmm, looks like a fey to me."
"Yessir, I agree."
"Alright, caddy, hand me my cold iron longsword."
"The +2 or flaming?"
Hmm that is an excellent point. Maybe I'll just use it for bosses / extra dynamic fights. Part of the fun I envision is the discovery of a very strong enemy's weakness but it would definitely get tiresome if done too often.


It seems pretty silly, because martials are assumed to have magic weapons past a certain level anyway.

Yes, I know they say magic items are not assumed, but magic weapons are. It's very obvious, because golems are immune to nonmagical weapons, and as we all know, golems are supposed to be anti-spellcaster enemies. It is not possible for them to fulfill their intended role unless magic weapons are in play by the time they start showing up.

Well part of the problem is that I LOVE giving out magic items, magic weapons included. I just hate that so many monsters' resistances are completely bypassed by the lowliest of magic weapons.

[JNAProductions]

Hmm that is an excellent point. Maybe I'll just use it for bosses / extra dynamic fights. Part of the fun I envision is the discovery of a very strong enemy's weakness but it would definitely get tiresome if done too often.

Well part of the problem is that I LOVE giving out magic items, magic weapons included. I just hate that so many monsters' resistances are completely bypassed by the lowliest of magic weapons.

Why is ANY magic weapon lowly?

Seriously-don't give out Longsword+1. Give out The Blade Of Conquest.

This magical longsword grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls. In addition, it allows the wielder to cast Thaumaturgy at-will. It was used in ancient times as a sword of generals, of which five were created. Beyond merely enhancing their prowess on the field of battle, the magic imbued within allowed their voice to reach far, bellowing orders to their soldiers from across the battlefield.

Mechanically, you don't even need the +1. But I, as a player, would prefer a storied weapon (doesn't have to be HUGE, just a little backstory) with a neat effect than a boring +1.

If you really, REALLY want to give out +1 to your players without any special attachment, make them mastercrafted, not magical.

[dejarnjc]

Why is ANY magic weapon lowly?

Seriously-don't give out Longsword+1. Give out The Blade Of Conquest.

This magical longsword grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls. In addition, it allows the wielder to cast Thaumaturgy at-will. It was used in ancient times as a sword of generals, of which five were created. Beyond merely enhancing their prowess on the field of battle, the magic imbued within allowed their voice to reach far, bellowing orders to their soldiers from across the battlefield.

Mechanically, you don't even need the +1. But I, as a player, would prefer a storied weapon (doesn't have to be HUGE, just a little backstory) with a neat effect than a boring +1.

If you really, REALLY want to give out +1 to your players without any special attachment, make them mastercrafted, not magical.

I appreciate the magic item idea :)

But this IS the kind of magic item I do generally try and give out already. However, there is still a difference (and should be IMO) between the magical dagger the party finds on a dark elf's corpse at level 3 versus the ancient long knife covered in powerful runes gifted to them by the storm giant king at level 11.

And both equally slice through most every monster manual creatures' weapon resistance no matter how lame or epic the weapon's story may be.

[JNAProductions]

I appreciate the magic item idea :)

But this IS the kind of magic item I do generally try and give out already. However, there is still a difference (and should be IMO) between the magical dagger the party finds on a dark elf's corpse at level 3 versus the ancient long knife covered in powerful runes gifted to them by the storm giant king at level 11.

And both equally slice through most every monster manual creatures' weapon resistance no matter how lame or epic the weapon's story may be.

I should hope that the improved abilities matter as well.

The dagger they get at level three has the following abilities:
-Dissolves if exposed to direct sunlight for over an hour
-Is magical

The knife they get from the King at level eleven has the following:
-+2 to hit and damage
-An extra 1d6 lightning damage on every swing
-Base 1d6 damage, instead of 1d4
-5 charges, recovering 1d4+1 every midnight, that can be expended to cast Deafness or Thunderwave as a bonus action (save DC 15)

Sure, they both punch through resistances okay, but the first weapon has literally JUST THAT for its abilities, while the later one has a bunch of extra goodies that make players feel more badass.

[thereaper]

Hmm that is an excellent point. Maybe I'll just use it for bosses / extra dynamic fights. Part of the fun I envision is the discovery of a very strong enemy's weakness but it would definitely get tiresome if done too often.



Well part of the problem is that I LOVE giving out magic items, magic weapons included. I just hate that so many monsters' resistances are completely bypassed by the lowliest of magic weapons.

If you specifically want a martial character to be ineffective against a certain enemy, you give that enemy resistance to physical damage. Resistance or immunity to nonmagical weapons is there to punish every physical damage dealer except the player characters. But keep in mind, for every enemy you make resistant to physical damage, it's only fair to make one that has advantage on saving throws and resistance to magic damage if the first one doesn't apply. You'll very quickly see the problem then.

Really, though, if you like giving out magic items, giving them +1 this and +1 that is not the way to go about it. There are tons of threads for minor but unique magic items, I'm sure.

[dejarnjc]

If you specifically want a martial character to be ineffective against a certain enemy, you give that enemy resistance to physical damage. Resistance or immunity to nonmagical weapons is there to punish every physical damage dealer except the player characters. But keep in mind, for every enemy you make resistant to physical damage, it's only fair to make one that has advantage on saving throws and resistance to magic damage if the first one doesn't apply. You'll very quickly see the problem then.


1) I don't specifically want martial characters to be ineffective against enemies. I want them to have options. Such as a) try to deal with a problem w/out prepping and struggle with it possibly finding a solution mid battle or b) do some prep work and overcome the resistances and maybe find some weakness to exploit (I did talk about adding more vulnerabilities after all), or c) doing something I can't anticipate.

2) The MM already has a TON of creatures with magic resistance and specific spell damage type resistances or immunities.

3) I do not believe that resistance and immunity to nonmagical weapons is only there to punish any physical damage dealer EXCEPT player characters... wherever did you get that idea?

[thereaper]

Martial characters are defined by their lack of options. Removing their ability to hit things reduces their options even further. It is the equivalent to taking a monster and making them outright immune to all magic. You are absolutely free to do so (and it can sometimes even make for a fun encounter), but that doesn't change the fact that you are intentionally crippling them.

Golems literally cannot do their job as anti-caster enemies unless the player characters have magic weapons (and no, the magic weapon spell does not qualify, because if one has to resort to the casters for victory to be possible against an enemy, then it's no longer an anti-caster enemy). Therefore, the only way for their immunity to nonmagical weapons to matter is if it is intended to be employed against non-PCs. Based on this, we can determine that player characters are in fact assumed to eventually get some sort of magic weapons (though not necessarily any numerical bonuses from them). Furthermore, we can extend this logic to any other creatures whose CR is beyond that point.

[Rukelnikov]

Martial characters are defined by their lack of options. Removing their ability to hit things reduces their options even further. It is the equivalent to taking a monster and making them outright immune to all magic. You are absolutely free to do so (and it can sometimes even make for a fun encounter), but that doesn't change the fact that you are intentionally crippling them.

Golems literally cannot do their job as anti-caster enemies unless the player characters have magic weapons (and no, the magic weapon spell does not qualify, because if one has to resort to the casters for victory to be possible against an enemy, then it's no longer an anti-caster enemy). Therefore, the only way for their immunity to nonmagical weapons to matter is if it is intended to be employed against non-PCs. Based on this, we can determine that player characters are in fact assumed to eventually get some sort of magic weapons (though not necessarily any numerical bonuses from them). Furthermore, we can extend this logic to any other creatures whose CR is beyond that point.

There are not many of those