Would you allow this to work. It a question about new Artificer & feat MI.

[Throne12]

Would you allow the feat magic initiative work as a Artificer as a choice. So you can pick 2 cantrips and 1 first level spell from the Artificer spell list?

[Man_Over_Game]

The lists:

Cantrips (0 Level)
acid splash
dancing lights
fire bolt
guidance
light
mage hand
mending
message
poison spray
prestidigitation
ray of frost
resistance
shocking grasp
spare the dying
thorn whip



1st Level
alarm (ritual)
arcane weapon (Hex that can change its damage type)
cure wounds
detect magic (ritual)
disguise self
expeditious retreat
false life
grease
identify (ritual)
jump
longstrider
sanctuary
shield of faith

Most overpowered thing I can thing of is Firebolt, Guidance and Arcane Weapon. Not much different than MI Warlock.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Most overpowered thing I can thing of is Firebolt, Guidance and Arcane Weapon. Not much different than MI Warlock.
Think about which classes are going to be taking it: Wizard, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster. Sure it could be taken by any class but Artificer has a lot less on their list that doesn't work off their casting stat, compared to Wizard/Cleric/Druid for those types of spells.

Arcane Weapon is the only spell I'd worry about, since it's strictly better than Hex* or Hunter's mark.
*unless you're a grappler

[Chronos]

When the Magic Initiate feat was created, it applied to all of the classes that had cantrips. Now there's a new class that has cantrips. It seems a reasonable enough extension.

[Man_Over_Game]

Think about which classes are going to be taking it: Wizard, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster. Sure it could be taken by any class but Artificer has a lot less on their list that doesn't work off their casting stat, compared to Wizard/Cleric/Druid for those types of spells.

Arcane Weapon is the only spell I'd worry about, since it's strictly better than Hex* or Hunter's mark.
*unless you're a grappler

Arcane Weapon doesn't really have much use for classes that can only dish out one attack per turn, and those classes have very little reason to value Arcane Weapon over Hex.

For example, an Eldritch Knight might want to take Hex for the possibility to grapple over the elemental changing effect. Or they might just take a level into Warlock for the Short Rest spell slot and all the benefits of MI.

Wizard isn't going to be dealing more than one attack without Eldritch Blast, unless they're spamming Scorching Ray. The same is true for the Arcane Trickster.

In almost any scenario, I see Eldritch Blast + Hex being a much better option than anything that MI: Artificer would provide. Looks pretty balanced to me.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Arcane Weapon doesn't really have much use for classes that can only dish out one attack per turn, and those classes have very little reason to value Arcane Weapon over Hex.

For example, an Eldritch Knight might want to take Hex for the possibility to grapple over the elemental changing effect. Or they might just take a level into Warlock for the Short Rest spell slot and all the benefits of MI.

Wizard isn't going to be dealing more than one attack without Eldritch Blast, unless they're spamming Scorching Ray. The same is true for the Arcane Trickster.

In almost any scenario, I see Eldritch Blast + Hex being a much better option than anything that MI: Artificer would provide. Looks pretty balanced to me.

Arcane Weapon (on Eldritch Knight) Could be procced 3 times a turn starting at level 7. If your Eldritch Knight is using SCAG cantrips (which most home tables that I know of would be) then you're dishing out per turn DPS on the same level as a 4 greatsword swings.

Arcane Trickster is the least problematic, for them I was more concerned with Firebolt becoming too useful of a tool, but that's not a bad thing. Wizards have Bladesinger as an option for allowing them to use Extra Attack.

Don't compare it to MI Warlock for EB Hex, remember that EB doesn't get CHA added to it's damage outside of Warlock so comparing (lets say level 11, for no other reason as to make cantrips scale more) EK with MI Artificer to a Bard (Cha class, not really an accurate comparison but neither is EB+Hex to Arcane Weapon)

Assuming Max STR/CHA by level 11
EK: Booming Blade Greatsword Swing - 2d6(Weapon)+5(Str)+2d8(BB on hit)+1d6(Arcane Weapon) = 28 average damage, ignoring the potential 13.5 additional average from Booming Blades additional hit

Swing 2 (which happens on subsequent turns), 2d6+5+1d6 = 15.5 average

Bard (still wouldn't have Battle Magic as a Valor Bard): Eldritch Blast + Hex: 3d10+3d6 = 27 average

tl;dr - Eldritch Knight gets DPR that is competitive, if not higher, than EB+Hex (from a Warlock even). EB+Hex is also safely locked behing CHA casting whereas EK/AT/Bladesinger lose nothing by choosing MI:Artificer. Arcane Weapon is also a buff applied to the caster, not the target, so you don't have to spend subsequent turns moving hex when you do kill the target.

This is even assuming that we limit this comparison to intelligence casters, there's no reason why a Champion Fighter wouldn't want Arcane Weapon for 3 attacks, instead choosing to take 2 of the many support based cantrips Artificer has.

The real nightmare (unlikely scenario) is that a Whirlwind Attack/Volley Hunter Ranger gets the damage on up to 8 additional strikes that all benefit with this damage

I don't think it's going to completely break the game open, but it's something to be careful with. It works on any class and isn't limited to single target, requiring you to kill the target and use a bonus action to move it.

[Throne12]

So a lv 6 alchemist can spend all night making a potion. Then use there free casting of lesser restoration to get rid of there 1lv of Exhaustion and be fine. I dont think brewing a potion will disrupt a rest so you should be your spell slots back. You only have the Exhaustion from not sleeping.


This is how this works right?

[ProsecutorGodot]

So a lv 6 alchemist can spend all night making a potion. Then use there free casting of lesser restoration to get rid of there 1lv of Exhaustion and be fine. I dont think brewing a potion will disrupt a rest so you should be your spell slots back. You only have the Exhaustion from not sleeping.


This is how this works right?

Lesser Restoration does not remove exhaustion. I'm pretty sure you'd only be able to argue (at best) for 2(4 for Elves) hours of crafting if your intention is to get a long rest.

[Man_Over_Game]

Lesser Restoration does not remove exhaustion. I'm pretty sure you'd only be able to argue (at best) for 2(4 for Elves) hours of crafting if your intention is to get a long rest.

Lesser Restoration: "You touch a creature and end either one disease or one of the following conditions: blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned. "

Greater Restoration (5th level, 100g diamond dust expended): Touch a creature. You can reduce its exhaustion level by one, or end one of the following effects on it:
◾ One effect that charmed or petrified it.
◾ One curse or attunement to a cursed item.
◾ Any reduction to one ability score.
◾ One effect reducing hit point maximum.

[Chronos]

Someone using Magic Initiate to pick up Hex or Arcane Weapon won't care whether they're getting it from an Int or Cha-based class, because neither of those spells uses your spellcasting ability in any way. You might care which one you take for purposes of the cantrips, but that's not likely to be an issue for Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster, at least, because if you wanted an attack cantrip, then you could have just taken one from your class. Or you could pick up the SCAG weapon cantrips from Warlock along with Hex, and still not care that they have Cha as their casting stat.

Does allowing MI: Artificer open up new options? Well, yes, of course. Does having more options increase potential power level? Again, yes. But it's not really increasing power level to a significant degree, beyond anything that was already in the game.

[Beechgnome]

As I mentioned in the other thread, grease works well with Thorn whip. And getting Thorn whip to key off intelligence is great. Wizards have a few ways to push: gust and Thunderwave, for example, and nice trap options like grease and cloud of daggers and and dust devil and storm sphere, but not many pull options.

[Chronos]

As of SCAG, wizards get Lightning Lash for pulling, which also incidentally provides a non-melee lightning cantrip. It tends to get overshadowed by the two weapon cantrips, though.

[guachi]

Would you allow the feat magic initiative work as a Artificer as a choice. So you can pick 2 cantrips and 1 first level spell from the Artificer spell list?

While Artificer is in the UA stage I'd say "maybe". On the one hand, I don't think the class was designed with this in mind. On the other hand, allowing it with the intent to provide feedback to WOTC isn't a bad idea. It's test material. So... test it and see how it goes.

[Beechgnome]

As of SCAG, wizards get Lightning Lash for pulling, which also incidentally provides a non-melee lightning cantrip. It tends to get overshadowed by the two weapon cantrips, though.

Yeah the difference is Thorn whip has better range, uses attack instead of strength saving throw and always does damage on hit, not just if target is within 5 feet. But does d6 instead of d8 and piercing instead of lightning. I just find it more versatile than lightning lure. I want to pull them into the grease, not next to me.

[Bloodcloud]

I'd say MI artificer is great and fairly thematic on a level 11+ fighter, but hardly game breaking. I'd allow.