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View Full Version : Is it just me or are trolls really dangerous?



Talanic
2007-09-28, 01:14 PM
I was thinking of bringing my party into troll-infested lands, and went over troll stats before doing so.

I'm glad I looked at the troll stats first. Although the party SHOULD be able to take on a CR 5 encounter with fair challenge, I don't see how they'd manage to take on a troll without at least one death. It hits their best AC on a ten, and on a full attack the bonus damage alone from three hits would kill any but the barbarian.

The party's five characters of level two, pretty fairly balanced, 28 point buy, full WBL. I could justify having them level up to level 3 now by giving them a storyline/roleplay experience reward, but I'm not sure that even then they'd be ready for the situation I'm looking at. They had opportunity to purchase whatever they wanted with WBL, but don't currently have a chance to restock yet.

I was planning to have the first troll they meet be starving and take a -4 to its strength (good reason for it), and then let them go for reinforcements or set traps or other such things if they wished, but even so I'm not sure it would be wise.

Unfortunately, I'm used to playing (not running) way over-CR'ed encounters, and want to avoid such situations with the group. It gets annoying fast when a monster can kill you in one or two hits, even with a dedicated healer. I'd like to avoid that, if possible.

tainsouvra
2007-09-28, 01:19 PM
Five level 2 characters is only a little more powerful than the standard lv2 party. CR5 means it is an appropriate challenge for a level 5 party. A CR+3 encounter is a very deadly encounter.

If you want to avoid over-CRing...don't do it. A level 2 party should average 4 encounters with CR2 each day. Stick to the basics until you're certain you know what the party can handle--and if you have to ask on the internet, you're not certain.

Gaiwecoor
2007-09-28, 01:22 PM
I'm going to go with a "yes, trolls are really dangerous." :smallwink:

Our party (five level five characters) recently ran into some.. two at a time. Getting hit by a full attack nearly killed my character - one of the front-line fighters. Although they're only CR5, they're some creatures I probably wouldn't pit a bunch of lvl 2 (or 3) characters against, even as a "tough challenge." Unless, of course, they're incredibly wealthy and can afford a resurrection.

It might be best to wait a couple of levels, just to give them the hit points they need to endure.

Jack Mann
2007-09-28, 01:25 PM
The encounter calculator pegs this as a "very difficult" encounter. By the DMG, this means "One PC might very well die. The Encounter Level is higher than the party level. This sort of encounter may be more dangerous than an overpowering one, because it's not immediately obvious to the players that the PCs should flee." That jives with what you're describing.

Now, it's all right to toss higher level encounters at your players sometimes, because if they're never at any significant risk, there's not nearly as much drama involved. But at low levels, you have to be very careful. Your players' characters are fragile. They die easily. I wouldn't go more than ECL +1 with encounters at this point. Let them get a nice cushion of HP to fall back on first, then start notching up the difficulty.

Ralfarius
2007-09-28, 01:26 PM
Yeah, tainsouvra already covered it. 5 level 2 characters are not equal to one CR5. It sort of works in reverse; that is, having more monsters that are a CR lower than the party. Even that usually ends up being a total route on the part of the unsuspecting, low-challenge monsters.

Admittedly, I once had a party poking around a town near a troll-ridden forest. Old guy #3 says "Well, there's been more troll activity lately. Trying to go down there is certain death!"

Naturally, the party takes this as a "let's go kill some trolls" kind of hint and immediately set out. Unfortunately for them, they're level 3-ish at this point. They manage to just barely (with a few lucky rolls) beat one troll into unconciousness. Unfortunately, they didn't bring any fire with them. So, while they're trying to light up a torch to put the ugly mug down for good, another troll comes barreling out of the tree line.

Needless to say, they get the idea and make a break for it. Then, they learned the lesson that 'certain death' actually means certain death, sometimes.

Psionic Dog
2007-09-28, 01:30 PM
Try ogers. They conjure about the same mental image as trolls, but are weaker at CR2. CR3.

So, 5 L2s should survive one or two of those in a day.

hewhosaysfish
2007-09-28, 01:31 PM
4th ed is going to DnD into some sort of nightmarish WoD/WoW hybrid!
Fighters are better than wizards!
Miko is the best person EVAR!

...Oh wait, you meant the other kind of troll... Sorry to intrude.

Swooper
2007-09-28, 01:40 PM
As has been said, trolls are way too dangerous for 2nd level characters. However, it is not impossible for even 1st level parties to defeat CR5 creatures. My old group's regular DM once had a 1st level party take out three seperate Phase Spiders, which are CR5. Trolls are a different breed however, and I can imagine even 5th level parties having difficulties with them..

Talanic
2007-09-28, 01:46 PM
Thanks for the advice. I've run them through two serious fights so far; one against five level 2 characters and one against three ghouls and a ghast. They did all right against them, so yeah, more opponents of lesser strength looks like the way to go.

Hrm. For the next segment, squads of kobolds outside of their lair, leading up to an eventual clash (perhaps days in coming) with a wyrmling or very young green dragon...and a chance at restocking and spending their filthy lucre.

crimson77
2007-09-28, 05:32 PM
I was planning to have the first troll they meet be starving and take a -4 to its strength (good reason for it), and then let them go for reinforcements or set traps or other such things if they wished, but even so I'm not sure it would be wise.

Unfortunately, I'm used to playing (not running) way over-CR'ed encounters, and want to avoid such situations with the group. It gets annoying fast when a monster can kill you in one or two hits, even with a dedicated healer. I'd like to avoid that, if possible.

I would offer this suggestion.

Make a homebrewed Pygmy Troll. It could have half (or 1/3) the hit dice, half the bonus for strength, etc. Maybe it could be the size of a human and frequently mistaken for naked half-orcs.

This would give you a troll that is not quite as powerful but still a challenge to your party.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-09-28, 06:23 PM
The thing about trolls is that in straight combat, even against an appropriately leveled party, is that they kill things really quickly. Add on regeneration plus rend and even fighters die quickly.
The troll, however, is very stupid. A clever party could outsmart it, out manuver it, or find some other way to exploit its 6 Int. (A wizard could take it out with 2 Rays of Stupidity).
You can throw the troll at them, but put it in a situation in which they can engage it in straight combat or find some alternative way of winning the encounter (bait it and flee, kill it with natural hazards, etc.).
As mentioned before, ogres are pretty good choices as opponents for a low level party.

JackMage666
2007-09-28, 07:09 PM
Plus, if the players don't know Trolls regenrate, they'll be there all day trying to kill it.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-28, 09:20 PM
Plus, if the players don't know Trolls regenrate, they'll be there all day trying to kill it.

How, might I ask, will the players not know trolls regenerate? Seriously. I don't understand how someone cannot realize that wounds are healing before their eyes.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-28, 09:40 PM
Generally speakig, you should stick to appropriate CRs until at least 6-7th level. After that point, the CRs on monsters can be somewhat off, as an optimized character really starts to pick up speed at that point.

A notable exception is That Damned Crab.

Drider
2007-09-28, 09:46 PM
Regeneration and rend are the big offenders of the trolls abilities, make sure your players know they're gonna fight trolls+give knowledge arcana check to learn of regen+allow them to buy alchemist fire...with rend...well...

Ralfarius
2007-09-28, 09:54 PM
How, might I ask, will the players not know trolls regenerate? Seriously. I don't understand how someone cannot realize that wounds are healing before their eyes.
Well, if the players are very new, they might see the regeneration, but not be able to figure out how to deal with it. Especially if they didn't think to bring any torches or other sources of fire beforehand, they could be hard-up for ways to put Mr. Troll to bed for good.

DraPrime
2007-09-28, 10:15 PM
I don't think that the troll should be too much of a problem. Yes, they are hellishly annoying, but a group of 4 level 3 characters once killed a troll in my group, so you should be fine.

Dervag
2007-09-28, 10:31 PM
Yes. They are huge, ferocious, and extremely difficult to kill.


As has been said, trolls are way too dangerous for 2nd level characters. However, it is not impossible for even 1st level parties to defeat CR5 creatures. My old group's regular DM once had a 1st level party take out three seperate Phase Spiders, which are CR5. Trolls are a different breed however, and I can imagine even 5th level parties having difficulties with them..I'm not sure what tactics they used to defeat the phase spiders, but I think you're right about trolls being hard to take down.


How, might I ask, will the players not know trolls regenerate? Seriously. I don't understand how someone cannot realize that wounds are healing before their eyes.I think he meant that players might not know how to stop a troll from regenerating (i.e. setting it on fire).


I don't think that the troll should be too much of a problem. Yes, they are hellishly annoying, but a group of 4 level 3 characters once killed a troll in my group, so you should be fine.First of all, five level 2 characters are significantly weaker than four level 3 characters. Second of all, there may be an optimization issue involved- four optimized level three characters may be about as effective as four ordinary level four characters, which could reasonably expect to beat a troll (with difficulty).

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-29, 04:53 AM
I suspect that the CRs are usually more meant for the mob to be used in a group. Which usually means that you'd actually be encountering a trio of trolls at level 7, for example, as opposed to 1 at level 5.