Archer Monk - Multiclass - Assistance!

[Grorl]

Howdy playground!


So, I've got a build idea in mind that I have tinkering around with. It isn't anything new, just wanting to be an awesome archer dude with decent ability to fall back onto melee if things aren't favorable to a longbow and such.

Was thinking Kensei monk. Now, I am not sure if I just wanna take at least 6 levels in it so I can get the ki empowered abilities and whatnot. Or, if I wanna go further. I was also thinking into multiclassing into either a Champion fighter for the 19-20 crit as well as the action surge and obvious archery style. ASI are open to feats. This character would be starting around level 7 or so, and the stats and thanks to Wood elf, are already pretty well off. So, I don't require much other than raising wisdom to 20 for the AC and stunning strike DC, stuff.

While thinking of this, I was struck with the idea that instead of going fighter for what I've mentioned. Taking instead Revised Ranger. I still get the style, but I also get a nice little handful of spells. Hunter's Mark, ensnaring strike, etc. Was thinking maybe a few levels in ranger... or, dropping monk at 6 and going ranger the rest of the way? Maybe M8/R+? (Just for more ASI, though not really ASI starved as I only really need sharpshooter, then possibly some flavor feats? Or other suggestions for this guy?)

As of late I feel not having spells really would limit me in how helpful I can be to the group. But then again, the group is comprised of 2 paladins, 1 bard, 1 sorcerer, and 1 rogue.
So, concentrate on being martial and going champion? Or get some utility from Ranger in the spells and all that?

Suggestions/tips would be appreciated and thank you!

EDIT: Just in case I did not make it clear. This is for a Monk archer, so I am going Kensei for sure. Just wanting to decide which class to add, fighter for champ or Ranger for Spells and a subclass. And how many levels of each to take and such. :)


EDIT 2!! Forgot to mention this will be a wood elf.


EDIT 3: after reading through suggestions you've all given me and taking into account the party comp, I think this guy would fit in with being a harasser and semi control. So. Peg enemies from afar and can tangle in melee when needed. Also getting some spells in there somewhere would be nice. So leaning into druid for the multiclass. This place is so helpful!!! Thank you all. <3


^_^

[Man_Over_Game]

Howdy playground!

So, I've got a build idea in mind that I have tinkering around with. It isn't anything new, just wanting to be an awesome archer dude with decent ability to fall back onto melee if things aren't favorable to a longbow and such.

Was thinking Kensei monk. Now, I am not sure if I just wanna take at least 6 levels in it so I can get the ki empowered abilities and whatnot. Or, if I wanna go further. I was also thinking into multiclassing into either a Champion fighter for the 19-20 crit as well as the action surge and obvious archery style. ASI are open to feats. This character would be starting around level 7 or so, and the stats and thanks to Wood elf, are already pretty well off. So, I don't require much other than raising wisdom to 20 for the AC and stunning strike DC, stuff.

While thinking of this, I was struck with the idea that instead of going fighter for what I've mentioned. Taking instead Revised Ranger. I still get the style, but I also get a nice little handful of spells. Hunter's Mark, ensnaring strike, etc. Was thinking maybe a few levels in ranger... or, dropping monk at 6 and going ranger the rest of the way? Maybe M8/R+? (Just for more ASI, though not really ASI starved as I only really need sharpshooter, then possibly some flavor feats? Or other suggestions for this guy?)

As of late I feel not having spells really would limit me in how helpful I can be to the group. But then again, the group is comprised of 2 paladins, 1 bard, 1 sorcerer, and 1 rogue.
So, concentrate on being martial and going champion? Or get some utility from Ranger in the spells and all that?

Suggestions/tips would be appreciated and thank you!

^_^

Howdy, Grorl!

A lot of this is really going to come down to what you explicitly are looking for, because there's a big difference between a Kensei Monk and an archery-focused Ranger.

The Ranger, for instance, will provide more for wilderness scenarios, explorations, and interactions with beasts, which look like things that your party may not have much of.

The Kensei has a lot of mobility, and can comfortably swap between melee and ranged combat. They're best used as a skirmisher who can flank around the enemy to hit their back line and punish their archers. In a way, they counter melee combatants by using range and mobility, and they counter ranged combatants by using melee and mobility. They don't do well in mosh pits, though.

Your team is well rounded either way, so it'd really depend on what you're wanted to gain. The Ranger will have more to do out of combat, where the Kensei is more versatile in combat.

[Grorl]

Howdy, Grorl!

A lot of this is really going to come down to what you explicitly are looking for, because there's a big difference between a Kensei Monk and an archery-focused Ranger.

The Ranger, for instance, will provide more for wilderness scenarios, explorations, and interactions with beasts, which look like things that your party may not have much of.

The Kensei has a lot of mobility, and can comfortably swap between melee and ranged combat. They're best used as a skirmisher who can flank around the enemy to hit their back line and punish their archers. In a way, they counter melee combatants by using range and mobility, and they counter ranged combatants by using melee and mobility. They don't do well in mosh pits, though.

Your team is well rounded either way, so it'd really depend on what you're wanted to gain. The Ranger will have more to do out of combat, where the Kensei is more versatile in combat.

That is my thought process, exactly. If I were going kensei/champion, I would only take 3-4 levels of fighter and the rest in monk.
But, I do want to have that utility as a Ranger. But, when it comes to that combo. I am not sure how many levels of which to take. More Kensei and drop ranger only after a few levels? Or drop Kensei after a few levels, thinking 6, then going Ranger full time?

[Man_Over_Game]

That is my thought process, exactly. If I were going kensei/champion, I would only take 3-4 levels of fighter and the rest in monk.
But, I do want to have that utility as a Ranger. But, when it comes to that combo. I am not sure how many levels of which to take. More Kensei and drop ranger only after a few levels? Or drop Kensei after a few levels, thinking 6, then going Ranger full time?

In any scenario when taking multiclass levels involving Martial classes, try to never have more than one Martial class at more than 4 levels. Extra Attack doesn't stack when from multiple classes, and so having two Martial classes with at least 5 levels each will result in a wasted level.

Monk is a class that does well the more levels you invest into it. Generally, if you want to be a Monk, you go all the way. A few levels into Ranger can really help, too, especially for something like Hunter's Mark.

My recommendation is to go 4 levels into Ranger, the rest into Monk. The levels into Ranger will get you things like Hunter's Mark, Goodberries, Speak with Animals, the good stuff. It'll also get you the ability to traverse your party through exploration scenarios pretty easily, and enhance your ranged attacks with the Hunter subclass features.

If you don't like the idea of a hybrid melee/ranged attacker, and want to go straight archer, I'd recommend going full Ranger. Hunter Ranger has a LOT of support for ranged combatants, and does well for someone who's willing to sacrifice combat versatility for a focused goal. The Kensei is best for someone who plans on doing both. The Kensei makes a poor specialist, but is the best as doing both roles as needed.

[Grorl]

In any scenario when taking multiclass levels involving Martial classes, try to never have more than one Martial class at more than 4 levels. Extra Attack doesn't stack when from multiple classes, and so having two Martial classes with at least 5 levels each will result in a wasted level.

Monk is a class that does well the more levels you invest into it. Generally, if you want to be a Monk, you go all the way. A few levels into Ranger can really help, too, especially for something like Hunter's Mark.

My recommendation is to go 4 levels into Ranger, the rest into Monk. The levels into Ranger will get you things like Hunter's Mark, Goodberries, Speak with Animals, the good stuff. It'll also get you the ability to traverse your party through exploration scenarios pretty easily, and enhance your ranged attacks with the Hunter subclass features.

If you don't like the idea of a hybrid melee/ranged attacker, and want to go straight archer, I'd recommend going full Ranger. Hunter Ranger has a LOT of support for ranged combatants, and does well for someone who's willing to sacrifice combat versatility for a focused goal. The Kensei is best for someone who plans on doing both. The Kensei makes a poor specialist, but is the best as doing both roles as needed.

Yeah, that does make good sense. In another game, I am playing a Revised Ranger/Druid. The 4 levels of ranger have actually done a lot of good and I have used a lot of their abilities in non-combat scenarios - like, A LOT!

I see what you mean by the 5th being a dead level. Having the spells the would be open for me at only 4 levels of ranger will be enough. Hunter's Mark, Ensnaring strike, and Hail of thorns. Thankfully the revised ranger has a pseudo way of speaking with animals to a degree.

I think I will stay maining the monk. I do like having that versatility to the character. Plus, makes for some nice flair than those other builds I've seen that mainly focus on archery as their only thing. Makes for other situations they get into particularly more taxing than for a monk who can just punch or kick with decent damage if need be or just combo both! Fire, fire, run in, flurry! Lol.

Thank you!

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, that does make good sense. In another game, I am playing a Revised Ranger/Druid. The 4 levels of ranger have actually done a lot of good and I have used a lot of their abilities in non-combat scenarios - like, A LOT!

I see what you mean by the 5th being a dead level. Having the spells the would be open for me at only 4 levels of ranger will be enough. Hunter's Mark, Ensnaring strike, and Hail of thorns. Thankfully the revised ranger has a pseudo way of speaking with animals to a degree. Thank you!

Sorry, quick clarification, by "The Kensei is best for someone who plans on doing both", I mean "doing both melee and ranged combat".

Alternatively, Druid has a lot to offer a Monk. Things like Mirror Image, Blur, Longstrider and Jump have a lot of powerful synergies with a Monk, and you get access to a lot of spells that are very useful out of combat. Ranger would do better for someone who's focusing more on the archery aspect of things, but I feel that Druid would provide more for the out-of-combat utility, specifically Land Druid.

[Edit] Glad I could help!

[djreynolds]

IMO, rangers and monk are both skirmishers.

Rangers have spells like longstrider that can enchance speed

Both classes should be able to go from archery and melee with ease

So they compliment each other well

It really depends on how many levels of monk you are going to take.

[Grorl]

Sorry, quick clarification, by "The Kensei is best for someone who plans on doing both", I mean "doing both melee and ranged combat".

Alternatively, Druid has a lot to offer a Monk. Things like Mirror Image, Blur, Longstrider and Jump have a lot of powerful synergies with a Monk, and you get access to a lot of spells that are very useful out of combat. Ranger would do better for someone who's focusing more on the archery aspect of things, but I feel that Druid would provide more for the out-of-combat utility, specifically Land Druid.

[Edit] Glad I could help!
Hm, then how many levels of druid would be well off for that? Keeping to the 4?

[Man_Over_Game]

Hm, then how many levels of druid would be well off for that? Keeping to the 4?

5th level Land Druid, into Grasslands, has an AMAZING list of spells that are well suited for a Monk, none of which have any dependency on Wisdom. At that level, you also gain access to level 3 spells, which is a big deal.

You'd be able to cast things like Flame Arrows, Conjure Animals, Animal Messenger, Haste, Pass Without Trace, Invisibility, and a bunch of other cool stuff. It's pretty dang perfect for a Kensei.

For less of a dip, 3 levels into Coast will get you Misty Step (Short-range teleport) and Mirror Image (No-concentration defense spell), both which work well. Desert is also a solid option for a minor dip, with Silence being great as a stealth/anti-magic tool, and Blur stacking well with the Monk's high AC.

[Grorl]

5th level Land Druid, into Grasslands, has an AMAZING list of spells that are well suited for a Monk, none of which have any dependency on Wisdom. At that level, you also gain access to level 3 spells, which is a big deal.

You'd be able to cast things like Flame Arrows, Conjure Animals, Animal Messenger, Haste, Pass Without Trace, Invisibility, and a bunch of other cool stuff. It's pretty dang perfect for a Kensei.

For less of a dip, 3 levels into Coast will get you Misty Step (Short-range teleport) and Mirror Image (No-concentration defense spell), both which work well. Desert is also a solid option for a minor dip, with Silence being great as a stealth/anti-magic tool, and Blur stacking well with the Monk's high AC.

I see what you mean there. Getting haste would be a nice boon. I would be giving up the archery style for utility and buffs. Seems like a fair trade. Would just mean an 8 to hit instead of 10. Was gonna take sharpshooter, too. Would that still be viable with the loss of archery style? Would have to make sure I have advantage on attacks somehow.. perhaps fearie fire can assist with that? In which case I'd be working toward druid. So if it starts at level 7 or so, 5/2 or 6/1 for that ki empowerment?

[djreynolds]

Its okay to envision a concept, but what exactly are you looking for?

There can be lots of dex based skirmishers out there

You need speed

You need skills, like stealth and such

And to be able to go from ranged to melee and back quickly

And to move in and out of combat without dying

So 7th level is your starting point, is your damage coming from hunter's mark, sharpshooter, divine favor, hail or thorns?

I personally would grab 3 levels of battlemaster fighter, and your KI and its superiority dice are both short rest recharged, precision would go well with precise strike

[Damon_Tor]

Three levels of Rogue (Assassin) and three levels of Revised Ranger (Gloom Stalker). You would be VERY sneaky, and VERY deadly when sneaking.

EDIT: Oh, and three levels of Fighter (Battle Master) for Action Surge and superiority damage.

EDIT 2: Oh, and five levels of Warlock (Hexblade) for Eldritch Smite + Improved Pact Weapon.

[Grorl]

Its okay to envision a concept, but what exactly are you looking for?

There can be lots of dex based skirmishers out there

You need speed

You need skills, like stealth and such

And to be able to go from ranged to melee and back quickly

And to move in and out of combat without dying

So 7th level is your starting point, is your damage coming from hunter's mark, sharpshooter, divine favor, hail or thorns?

I personally would grab 3 levels of battlemaster fighter, and your KI and its superiority dice are both short rest recharged, precision would go well with precise strike
I'm aiming for being able to do melee and range. With a kensei monk it would fit there. Take mobile at some point. I can duck in and out with ease all while holding a bow. The damage would be coming mostly I think from bow+ kensei shot if I take the monk/druid route. Hunters mark if monk/ranger as well as sharpshooter methinks. Dropping sharpshooter [maybe] if I go druid. Then again fearie fire and elven accuracy can fix that some.

[Grorl]

Three levels of Rogue (Assassin) and three levels of Revised Ranger (Gloom Stalker). You would be VERY sneaky, and VERY deadly when sneaking.

EDIT: Oh, and three levels of Fighter (Battle Master) for Action Surge and superiority damage.

EDIT 2: Oh, and five levels of Warlock (Hexblade) for Eldritch Smite + Improved Pact Weapon.
I've pondered that.. but I hate having to rely totally on stealth and also, it would be only first turn for the huge nova. Sustained would be back to relying on advantage or allies engaging my targets.

[Misterwhisper]

Anyone can be good at melee and ranged just use a finesse weapon.

Use a longbow and carry a short sword.

Rogue is good at both at the same time, they don’t get a fighting style anyway so no wasted specializing.

Inquisitive is good at both and so is swashbuckler.

Arcane trickster is great too if you can keep your familiar alive.

Battlemaster fighter is also great at both.

Or you could just do what MANY people do and just take crossbow expert and never bother changing weapons if they get in melee. Just keep shooting them.

[Grorl]

Anyone can be good at melee and ranged just use a finesse weapon.

Use a longbow and carry a short sword.

Rogue is good at both at the same time, they don’t get a fighting style anyway so no wasted specializing.

Inquisitive is good at both and so is swashbuckler.

Arcane trickster is great too if you can keep your familiar alive.

Battlemaster fighter is also great at both.

Or you could just do what MANY people do and just take crossbow expert and never bother changing weapons if they get in melee. Just keep shooting them.

The same is true for kensei monk. Hold the bow and punch fools. xD

I was just wanting tips for multiclassing as to which class to multi into. Giving me options, ya know? :)


EDIT: although reading your post did make me ponder. If I choose not to specialize, that leaves me free from needing archery style as well as sharpshooter. Could take on a druid for more utility in spells and make do with the bow and kensei shot along with a plethora of support while keeping to the base concept of also bashing face.

[djreynolds]

It really depends on how many levels this will go.

Remember if you need some oomph 1 level of rogue, 1 level of cleric, 1 level of druid can give you lot without devoting multiple levels

A level of war cleric and you get divine favor and bless

Also magic initiate warlock is nice for hex

[Damon_Tor]

I've pondered that.. but I hate having to rely totally on stealth and also, it would be only first turn for the huge nova. Sustained would be back to relying on advantage or allies engaging my targets.

The Battle Master maneuvers and action surge are useful no matter the situation, they're just extra useful when you are guaranteed a crit. The ranger and rogue both give plenty of options for out-of-combat things to do, even if in combat it's their sneaky-nova that really shines. I'll admit the Warlock is likely impractical due to the stats required, but the others need nothing but dex and wis, which you should have in spades.

I've never found the Champion worthwhile. Their expanded crit range just doesn't come into play enough or do enough when it does; it's a 5% chance of one more d8. Meanwhile the Battle Master gets 4 d8s it can add to whatever attacks they want (and they get extra effects on that attack to boot). You would have to make 80 attacks between short rests for the Champion to break even, and you're making two attacks per round. If a typical combat lasts 3 rounds and there are typically 3 combats between short rests, that's 18 attacks, not even 1/4 of the way toward the breakeven point. And even if somehow you found yourself making the 80 attacks you need to close the gap here, you have to also consider that the Champion "wastes" some percentage of his extra damage because he can't control when it happens. He crits an enemy he would have killed anyway, or who wasn't a meaningful threat because a caster had neutralized him. A Champion adds his extra damage exactly when he intends to.

Your math is going to be slightly different, because a crit adds 1d8+1d4 due to it also multiplying Kenesi's Shot, but that's not going to be enough to overcome the huge disparity that exists between these two subclasses.

[Misterwhisper]

The Battle Master maneuvers and action surge are useful no matter the situation, they're just extra useful when you are guaranteed a crit. The ranger and rogue both give plenty of options for out-of-combat things to do, even if in combat it's their sneaky-nova that really shines. I'll admit the Warlock is likely impractical due to the stats required, but the others need nothing but dex and wis, which you should have in spades.

I've never found the Champion worthwhile. Their expanded crit range just doesn't come into play enough or do enough when it does; it's a 5% chance of one more d8. Meanwhile the Battle Master gets 4 d8s it can add to whatever attacks they want (and they get extra effects on that attack to boot). You would have to make 80 attacks between short rests for the Champion to break even, and you're making two attacks per round. If a typical combat lasts 3 rounds and there are typically 3 combats between short rests, that's 18 attacks, not even 1/4 of the way toward the breakeven point. And even if somehow you found yourself making the 80 attacks you need to close the gap here, you have to also consider that the Champion "wastes" some percentage of his extra damage because he can't control when it happens. He crits an enemy he would have killed anyway, or who wasn't a meaningful threat because a caster had neutralized him. A Champion adds his extra damage exactly when he intends to.

Your math is going to be slightly different, because a crit adds 1d8+1d4 due to it also multiplying Kenesi's Shot, but that's not going to be enough to overcome the huge disparity that exists between these two subclasses.

The biggest mathematical bonus for a Battle Master is actually turning misses into hits with precision strike.

Rolling a miss you know only missed by 1 or 2 and making it a hit is going to be a lot more bonus damage than just a 1d8 and a rider.

Now sometimes those riders can make a huge difference but if we are talking just mathematical damage, precision is better.

[rbstr]

Monk is a class that really works best if you're putting most of your levels into it. Especially up until level 8, every next level is good stuff.
I'm not sold on most caster MCs for monk. With a one level dip for "utility" you're mostly better off taking Magic Initiate and the actually casters in your party should have this covered easily. Then, multi-level dips don't have a very good return because you're getting low level spells late in the game and keeping yourself from scaling the monk abilities. Combat spells that use a whole action are really eating into doing things you're actually good at (and often replicating the effects that more levels of monk would have).

I'd say no more than 4 levels in Ranger (Hunter or Gloomstalker), Fighter (Battlemaster, maybe samurai or EK) or Rogue (maybe up to 5 levels here).
Ranger offers a lot at level 2, a big boost at level 3, and the ASI at 4. Fighter gives you something good every level. Rogue is not strictly as combat strong but the expertise is great.

[Damon_Tor]

The biggest mathematical bonus for a Battle Master is actually turning misses into hits with precision strike.

Rolling a miss you know only missed by 1 or 2 and making it a hit is going to be a lot more bonus damage than just a 1d8 and a rider.

Now sometimes those riders can make a huge difference but if we are talking just mathematical damage, precision is better.

Yes, but apples to apples.