Fochlucan Lyrist advice

[Cozod]

Starting a new campaign at lvl 1, we very often play into high teens, so trying to make him playable at all lvls.

Away from my books/notes, so some lvls may need to be flipped.

Bard1/druid3/arcane hierophant3/X/AH 1/fochlucan lyrist 10.

Human

Not sure what I want in the middle aside from advancing bard casting. Was thinking abjurant champ 2. Druid can cast luminous armor. This is assuming ab champs abilities work with druid spells.

Feats:
1)able learner, precocious apprentice, wild cohort

Flaw weak willed, or whatever -3 will is

Dm ok'd souldmeld/chakra for evasion to qualify for FL. Will retrain precious apprentice at later lvl for one.

Rough character idea; urban druid/bard who's a good, down to earth guy.

Short term goals are helping the local community (lower quarters of a biggish town) better themselves.

Long term goals for the character is forming an organization similar to the harpers and the bracers (from the trails of series).


What I want him to do mechanically; everything basically... stealth gish skillmonkey bard music and knowledge.

But if I'm doing this math all correctly he'll have decent BAB (16+ at 20), mediocre HP, 9th lvl druid spells, 6th lvl bard spells. 11th lvl knowledge and music (only 1 lvl though until 11th). Wild cohort will only be a HD and str/dex behind a druid AC.

Things I'm thinking;

Obtain familiar feat depending on how DM rules arcane hierophant, wild cohort and obtain familiar interactions.

Arcane strike, leadership (to created/form the organization, not looking to go crazy with the cohort or circle magic, etc) darkstalker.

So, thanks for reading so far. My questions are:

Does this build work legally, given the soul meld caveat?

Will it work mechanically? Am I spreading myself too thin?

What could I take with those 2 lvls floating around? More arcane hierophant, ab champ, something else?

Any feat or general build suggestions, while keeping the roleplay intact?

Anything 3 and 3.5 is good, no dragon, dragon lance. Regional feats are dm discretion, fractional BAB.

I know I'm asking a lot out of this character mechanically. Other party members are raptotian scout warblade sword sage charger, an artificer going dual wand, and an elan psionic archer. All three know how to optimize fairly well.

Other members are goliath barbarian, and one other player who typically plays stuff more for flavor and rp (monk, evoc sorc).

Bonus points if we can work sublime chord in at 11th.

Thank you so much! And this is from my phone, so if any clarification or questions, let me know.

[Eladrinblade]

Use rich's fey druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10546562&postcount=11) variant for less MAD and more synergy.

[Bphill561]

There are few problems up front. Fochlucan Lyrist=FL

First Arcane hierophant has 2 requirements you don't meet. It has two skill ranks that are required to be a 8, so you cannot get in until 6th. Second it requires a base attack bonus of +4, which you cannot get with any combination of 5 levels of bard and druid. So you are looking at something like Bard 2/Druid 4 followed by AH 4/FL 10. This is not drastically different than your original build, but it losses out on Abjuration Champion. These builds usually incorporate a dragon magazine class that advances bard and druid, but beyond your reach.

Sublime chord is going to cost you something... Trade out your Precocious Apprentice at level 1 for Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the dragon. It lets you sacrifice two lower level spell slots to cast a spell 1 level higher. Go with feats

L1 Able Learner
L1 Versatile Spellcaster
L3 Heighten Spell
L6 Shape Soul Meld
L9 Open Lesser Chakram

Now you can heighten a bard spell known up to level 3 so Bard 2/ Druid 4/ AH 4/ Sublime Chord 1/ FL 9. You can also do it your way with precocious apprentice and go Bard 3/ Druid 3/ AH 4 but you will end up with druid casting stuck to 8th level spells. Option 3 is to get lots of skill points some where and go Bard 1/ Druid 3/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Sublime Chord 1/ FL 9. This will tank your BAB, so each way has a cost.

To my understanding, obtain familiar works off the total of all class levels that allow you to cast arcane spells. Please correct me if I am wrong, but this does not include Prestige classes that lack spell casting of their own, but advances already existing casting from another class. So your familiar won't be very high with just a few bard levels plus AH adding in. I do hope this is wrong though, there is a nice dragon feat that gives you an extra use of an ability from a divine spellcasting class. I would love to use that for an extra supernatural spell for a Dweomerkeeper.


The Fochlucan Lyrist build I have been working on is Bard 1/Fighter 2/Bard 2/Spell Sword 2/Spell Dancer 2/Divine Crusader 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ FL 9 for a Forgotten realms campaign. The Region "Bardic Tutelage" allows you to gain any one language known without the usual restriction against learning restricted languages (a trick not appreciated by some). Also it uses Sanctum Spell similar to your early entry trick for higher level spells. Divine Crusader is a PrC in Complete Divine that has a spell list of one clerical domain that is cast off of Charisma. Not as powerful as a full druid list for sure, but it gets 9th level spells over 10 levels of progression. Ends up with Bard 0-2, Sublime Chord 4-9th, and one cleric domain 1-9th all off of Charisma.

[Cozod]

Use rich's fey druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10546562&postcount=11) variant for less MAD and more synergy.

That's exactly what I'd need to help, unfortunately i've asked my DM about Green Whisperer from Dragon and Dynamic Priest from a Dragonlance book(which is weaker than a feat in the link) and he's reviewed them and it's a no go. Not so much they're unblanaced or anything, but doesn't want to set a precedence. He's aware of the MAD in my build, and is willing to work with me, as long as it's from a 1st party source. Thank you though!


There are few problems up front. Fochlucan Lyrist=FL

First Arcane hierophant has 2 requirements you don't meet. It has two skill ranks that are required to be a 8, so you cannot get in until 6th. Second it requires a base attack bonus of +4, which you cannot get with any combination of 5 levels of bard and druid. So you are looking at something like Bard 2/Druid 4 followed by AH 4/FL 10. This is not drastically different than your original build, but it losses out on Abjuration Champion. These builds usually incorporate a dragon magazine class that advances bard and druid, but beyond your reach.

Yup, you're right. When talking about my build with my DM I did tell him it was 12th lvl music and knowledge, bard2/druid4 is probably what it was. Abjurant champion was really more of a filler, originally I had divine oracle in there for "evasion" before i decided on the feat route (really only one more feat because no SF religion, which lets be honest makes no sense for this guy to have).


Sublime chord is going to cost you something... Trade out your Precocious Apprentice at level 1 for Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the dragon. It lets you sacrifice two lower level spell slots to cast a spell 1 level higher. Go with feats

L1 Able Learner
L1 Versatile Spellcaster
L3 Heighten Spell
L6 Shape Soul Meld
L9 Open Lesser Chakram

Woah, actually Versatile Spellcaster seems much better for my uses. Don't think I'd even trade it out like i was going to with precocious apprentice. Great idea, thanks!


To my understanding, obtain familiar works off the total of all class levels that allow you to cast arcane spells. Please correct me if I am wrong, but this does not include Prestige classes that lack spell casting of their own, but advances already existing casting from another class. So your familiar won't be very high with just a few bard levels plus AH adding in. I do hope this is wrong though, there is a nice dragon feat that gives you an extra use of an ability from a divine spellcasting class. I would love to use that for an extra supernatural spell for a Dweomerkeeper.

Honestly, this is my understanding of the feat as well. Was kind of hoping someone would tell me I'm wrong, lol. Which is good enough for me to not take the feat in an already feat heavy build. I was going to have a Tressym AC, so I don't think he'd be losing out too much anyways. He's more for scouting or spying, so HD and Ac aren't super important unless he gets spotted. But even then, he can fly.


The Fochlucan Lyrist build I have been working on is Bard 1/Fighter 2/Bard 2/Spell Sword 2/Spell Dancer 2/Divine Crusader 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ FL 9 for a Forgotten realms campaign. The Region "Bardic Tutelage" allows you to gain any one language known without the usual restriction against learning restricted languages (a trick not appreciated by some). Also it uses Sanctum Spell similar to your early entry trick for higher level spells. Divine Crusader is a PrC in Complete Divine that has a spell list of one clerical domain that is cast off of Charisma. Not as powerful as a full druid list for sure, but it gets 9th level spells over 10 levels of progression. Ends up with Bard 0-2, Sublime Chord 4-9th, and one cleric domain 1-9th all off of Charisma.

Wish I could take a region/background, that's another negative though. DM agrees the background allows for druidic since it specifically allows for dead languages, so secret languages aren't far of a stretch, for what it's worth he'll let Loremaster learn it too. Divine Crusader has some real potential. Would still have to dip a lvl of druid. Ditch AH for something bardier, because holy cow do I need skill points. Unseen seer could be fun for hunter's mercy. Frees up feats too for early entry. At that point might as well grab bonus feat rogue 2 and satisfy entry the way the Cat Lord intended, and with a feat swing of +4. And I can drop wis to 12, which, wow. I can have a dex mod, 16 int and cha, maybe get that con a little higher. Down side is I'll lose the druid by dropping druid. Obviously. It was mainly for the prereq and i just kinda mashed it in to the story. I think 1 lvl with all the cityscape changes still is flavorful for someone that wants to nurture his community though.

Thank you so much for your time and feedback. Serioulsy, I think this helped me get my character more focused mechanically and roleplay/flavorwise. Just need to peruse the 100 or so domains now and find one that fits.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it!

[Grim Reader]

Sublime chord is going to cost you something... Trade out your Precocious Apprentice at level 1 for Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the dragon. It lets you sacrifice two lower level spell slots to cast a spell 1 level higher. Go with feats

L1 Able Learner
L1 Versatile Spellcaster
L3 Heighten Spell
L6 Shape Soul Meld
L9 Open Lesser Chakram

Now you can heighten a bard spell known up to level 3 so Bard 2/ Druid 4/ AH 4/ Sublime Chord 1/ FL 9.

Unless there is some Incarnum thing I don't know, you'll need Bard 5 before you can Versatile Spellcaster a level 3 spell.


You can also do it your way with precocious apprentice and go Bard 3/ Druid 3/ AH 4 but you will end up with druid casting stuck to 8th level spells.

Druid 3 can cast 2nd level spells, so Precocious Apprentice won't help qualifying, its just extra Druid spell slots when by the time you want AH.


Option 3 is to get lots of skill points some where and go Bard 1/ Druid 3/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Sublime Chord 1/ FL 9. This will tank your BAB, so each way has a cost.

Bard 1 can't qualify for Mystic Theurge. It needs second level arcane spells.


The Fochlucan Lyrist build I have been working on is Bard 1/Fighter 2/Bard 2/Spell Sword 2/Spell Dancer 2/Divine Crusader 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ FL 9 for a Forgotten realms campaign. The Region "Bardic Tutelage" allows you to gain any one language known without the usual restriction against learning restricted languages (a trick not appreciated by some). Also it uses Sanctum Spell similar to your early entry trick for higher level spells.

Sanctum Spell should work.

[Bphill561]

Unless there is some Incarnum thing I don't know, you'll need Bard 5 before you can Versatile Spellcaster a level 3 spell.

AH=Arcane Heirophant, which requires second level spells. Bard 2 can sac two level 1 spells to cast a level 2 spell. AH then advances bardic spelling casting by 4 levels to get to bard 6. Repeat with two level 2 spells to get level 3 for sublime chord.
The Incarnum feats are in reference to Cozod’s original post stating he is getting the FL evasion requirement through Incarnum soulmelds. No base soulmeld grants evasion, but additional bonuses are granted through binding the soulmeld to a Chakra. There is a lesser chakram feet bind that does grant evasion, but you need “Open Lesser Chakram” feat for that.



Druid 3 can cast 2nd level spells, so Precocious Apprentice won't help qualifying, its just extra Druid spell slots when by the time you want AH.

Correct, but we are not applying Precocious Apprentice to the Druid. Applying it to the Bard grants the 2nd level spell requirement for AH. Again AH is advancing the Bard 3/ Druid 3 to a bard caster level of 7, which with a charisma of 16 allows for third level bard spell casting. You could then retrain Precocious Apprentice for a different feat as Cozod mentioned he was going to do.



Bard 1 can't qualify for Mystic Theurge. It needs second level arcane spells.

Option 3 can use Cozod’s original selected Precocious Apprentice feat or the two feat Heighten spell/Versatile Spellcaster. The Precocisous Apprentice would again grant a 2nd level Bard spell, mixed with Druid’s 3rd level ability to cast 2nd level divine spells to qualify. If you want to get more tricky, take a look at Versatile spellcaster. You don’t have to sacrifice bard spell slots to cast a bard spell. You can sacrifice two spell slots of one level to cast a spell one level higher that you know. Sac two druid level 1 spells to cast your heighten level 0 bard spell up to 2nd level. I only kept druid 3 for more skill points over Mystic theurge since you will need lots for Sublime chord and FL and Cozod original interest in an animal companion. You could just as easily go
Rogue 1/Bard 1/ Druid 1/Mystic theurge 7/Sublime 1/ FL 9 with Versatile/Heighten feat combo. Mystic theurge only has a skill requirement of 6, so entry at level 4 is possible. Or drop out the rogue if you don’t need the skill points and/or don’t like using Versatile spellcaster in that fashion for Bard 2/Druid 1. You will still get to level 9 druid spells over the build.




Wish I could take a region/background, that's another negative though. DM agrees the background allows for druidic since it specifically allows for dead languages, so secret languages aren't far of a stretch, for what it's worth he'll let Loremaster learn it too. Divine Crusader has some real potential. Would still have to dip a lvl of druid. Ditch AH for something bardier, because holy cow do I need skill points. Unseen seer could be fun for hunter's mercy. Frees up feats too for early entry. At that point might as well grab bonus feat rogue 2 and satisfy entry the way the Cat Lord intended, and with a feat swing of +4. And I can drop wis to 12, which, wow. I can have a dex mod, 16 int and cha, maybe get that con a little higher. Down side is I'll lose the druid by dropping druid. Obviously. It was mainly for the prereq and i just kinda mashed it in to the story. I think 1 lvl with all the cityscape changes still is flavorful for someone that wants to nurture his community though.

Thank you so much for your time and feedback. Serioulsy, I think this helped me get my character more focused mechanically and roleplay/flavorwise. Just need to peruse the 100 or so domains now and find one that fits.
Thanks again, I really appreciate it!

Yeah, I think Rogue 2/ Druid 1/Bard 7 is pretty standard entry for FL (even better if you can the feat rogue variant you mentioned).
Careful with the Divine Crusader though, it is very difficult to get into the mix. You need a base attack bonus of +7 in a build that has to go X9/ Divine Crusader 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ FL 9. So you can only lose 2 BAB over the 9 levels. So you cannot dip three ¾ BAB classes to get in. Using the original feat selections I suggested, you could go Bard 4/Druid 3/ Fighter 2 to get there. Being human, your highest level won’t count for multiclassing penalties, so keep the other two within 1 level of each other. Unless you can apply the FL immunity to multiclassing penalties a little early. Fighter will grant the bonus weapon focus feat needed for Divine Crusader.

Domains depend on your campaign setting and such but I always liked Force, Luck, Mysticism, and Strength. Some have suggested picking a planar domain found in the Spell compendium since it has two spells known per level. The wording on the Divine Crusader is any domain, while planar domains says it counts as both the cleric’s domain choices. Nothing states it is actually two domains, just how to handle it with the cleric class, so all clear. The favored weapon might effect which deity and domains are available too.

[RNightstalker]

Working in Mystic Theurge to help increase both casting classes would be worth it depending on what kind of campaign you play in, as it will hamstring your skill points.
If your Int modifier is high enough, a 1-level dip into Loremaster at the right time can net you a bonus feat.
Something else to consider could be Paragon PrC's from UA. The Human Paragon has 2/3 spell progression, a bonus feat and an ability boost.

[Rebel7284]

If you want to move away from Druid, the race Hellbred specifically remember any languages know in their past life. Spellscale may or may not work this way too.

I second Sublime Chord dip if you can qualify. Changing 6/9 casting to 9/9 casting is pretty rad.

[Grim Reader]

AH=Arcane Heirophant, which requires second level spells. Bard 2 can sac two level 1 spells to cast a level 2 spell. AH then advances bardic spelling casting by 4 levels to get to bard 6. Repeat with two level 2 spells to get level 3 for sublime chord.
The Incarnum feats are in reference to Cozod’s original post stating he is getting the FL evasion requirement through Incarnum soulmelds. No base soulmeld grants evasion, but additional bonuses are granted through binding the soulmeld to a Chakra. There is a lesser chakram feet bind that does grant evasion, but you need “Open Lesser Chakram” feat for that.

D'oh. Go the requirements for SC and AH mixed up in my head. Mind, Bard 2 has "0" for first level spells, so you need a 20 Cha for two bonus 1st level spells.


Correct, but we are not applying Precocious Apprentice to the Druid. Applying it to the Bard grants the 2nd level spell requirement for AH. Again AH is advancing the Bard 3/ Druid 3 to a bard caster level of 7, which with a charisma of 16 allows for third level bard spell casting. You could then retrain Precocious Apprentice for a different feat as Cozod mentioned he was going to do.

Unfortunately, the PA feat only grants the spell for a very limited period of the characters career. It stops working like that when you get 2nd level spells. So when you are Bard 3/Druid 3, getting second level Druid spells have shifted it into the second stage, so now it only gives a second level Druid slot. And you can't take AH, because you can't cast second level arcane spells any more. Its why PA is no good for dual-advancement classes.


Option 3 can use Cozod’s original selected Precocious Apprentice feat or the two feat Heighten spell/Versatile Spellcaster. The Precocisous Apprentice would again grant a 2nd level Bard spell, mixed with Druid’s 3rd level ability to cast 2nd level divine spells to qualify. If you want to get more tricky, take a look at Versatile spellcaster. You don’t have to sacrifice bard spell slots to cast a bard spell. You can sacrifice two spell slots of one level to cast a spell one level higher that you know. Sac two druid level 1 spells to cast your heighten level 0 bard spell up to 2nd level.

Pretty sure spell slots don't carry over like that (without Geomancer levels at least.) You do not sacrifice the spell slots, you use them. Use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. There is noting in the feat that overrules the general rule about spell slots from different classes being separate.


Domains depend on your campaign setting and such but I always liked Force, Luck, Mysticism, and Strength. Some have suggested picking a planar domain found in the Spell compendium since it has two spells known per level. The wording on the Divine Crusader is any domain, while planar domains says it counts as both the cleric’s domain choices. Nothing states it is actually two domains, just how to handle it with the cleric class, so all clear. The favored weapon might effect which deity and domains are available too.

There is a spell, Substitute Domain from Complete Champion, that lets you move around which domain you cast spells from. Might have to put it in a want and UMD it, but its second level.

[Bphill561]

D'oh. Go the requirements for SC and AH mixed up in my head. Mind, Bard 2 has "0" for first level spells, so you need a 20 Cha for two bonus 1st level spells.

Yeah, 20 Cha is not super easy. You are level 6 overall so you only get a single +1 bonus to an ability score, which is fine to go to Cha with Sublime Chord and bard casting. So you still need to roll high (or point buy high) and play middle age or old as a human. I would be willing to go as far as old since you need the skill points from Int and cast off Cha and Wisdom.


Unfortunately, the PA feat only grants the spell for a very limited period of the characters career. It stops working like that when you get 2nd level spells. So when you are Bard 3/Druid 3, getting second level Druid spells have shifted it into the second stage, so now it only gives a second level Druid slot. And you can't take AH, because you can't cast second level arcane spells any more. Its why PA is no good for dual-advancement classes.

Hmm, not exact but not worth it. Why you would loss the Bard level 2 spell slot since it states “you loss the benefit described above, but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot…” You don’t retain a second level bard spell slot by losing it and gaining a druid bonus spell slot. I have mostly seen this used with Beguiler and Dread necromancer though, where their normal spell casting allows them to know every spell on their list. The bard is out of luck since he would have the slot, but no spells known. You would still end up needing Heighten spell making the versatile route better. Of course there is always the ongoing argument about minimum spell caster level that shows up now and again (although Precocious’s special casting rules is removed at this point). Followed by the FAQ response the Precocious Apprentice feat does not allow for PrC qualification by the Sage’s Opinion (he should run for office, way to not answer a question). But yes, it is flawed.


Pretty sure spell slots don't carry over like that (without Geomancer levels at least.) You do not sacrifice the spell slots, you use them. Use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. There is noting in the feat that overrules the general rule about spell slots from different classes being separate.

I personally would not allow using the spell slots that way either for Versatile spellcaster, but that is another argument that comes up on various forums. But since Precocious Apprentice would require heighten in the Bard 1/Druid 3 entry, and the bard would need an even higher starting Cha for Bard 2/Druid 1 with Versatile and Heighten; then bard 1/ Arcane caster 1/Druid 1 would have to do for MT entry (Poor rogue gets left out). Beguiler for skill points, duskblade for +1BAB, or Wu Jen for a bonus feat seems best, you should have the Int for a bonus first level spell if Wu Jen. You still end up with 9th level druid spells and full Sublime Chord casting.

Amended Builds
Not so High Cha
1 Bard/ 1 Duskblade/ 4 Druid/ 4 AH/ 1 Sublime Chord / 9FL
Duskblade versatile Level 1 spells to 2, Bard 5 versatile level 2 spells to 3 with Cha of 16 by level 10

Fixed Mystic Theurge
1 Bard/ 1 Wu Jen/1 Druid/ Mystic Theurge 7/ Sublime 1/ 9 FL
Assuming you can swing the skill points. Wu Jen for free Heightened Spell opening up another feat.


If you want to move away from Druid, the race Hellbred specifically remember any languages know in their past life. Spellscale may or may not work this way too.

I second Sublime Chord dip if you can qualify. Changing 6/9 casting to 9/9 casting is pretty rad.

Did not know about the Hellbred, that is very neat especially since the original poster already listed variant unearthed arcania classes as an option (Freedom paladin time).

[Cozod]

I didnt think about using 2 different classes to both use versatile sc to meet prereqs. That's interesting. I'll have to run it by my dm to see how he feels about it, regardless of raw/rai. I'll bring up earth spell and sanctum too. Doesnt the CArc sanctum spell say all spell lvl effects are raised by 1? Not sure if that would work.

Thanks again!

[Bphill561]

I didnt think about using 2 different classes to both use versatile sc to meet prereqs. That's interesting. I'll have to run it by my dm to see how he feels about it, regardless of raw/rai. I'll bring up earth spell and sanctum too. Doesnt the CArc sanctum spell say all spell lvl effects are raised by 1? Not sure if that would work.

Thanks again!

Sanctum spell increasing the spell level by 1 when the spell is cast inside your sanctum, but lowers it by 1 outside. The spell slot does not change. It is good, but requires another metamagic feat to qualify. So it is still a two feat requirement. I usually go this route because I am heading to extend/ persistent spell buffs. Useful for arcane thesis tricks as well since it is a 0 adjustment metamagic.

Earth Spell requires Earth Sense and Heighten Spell, so now you are looking at 3 feats. Also for Earth spell to kick in you need to heighten the spell one level. So Heighten a level 0 spell to level 1, and earth spell will push it to level two. This is okay for entry, but is used more for the Shadowcraft mage's class abilities and emulating spells. Or most cheesy in conjunction with sanctum spell and Residual metamagic to cheesy up some 10th level spells to qualify extra spell slot feat for 9th level slots before you have 9th level slots.

[Cozod]

That makes sense. Versatile Spellcaster seems the most straight forward way, and seeing as how I'd have 4 spell lists/spells per day it would give me a lot of, well, versatility. Thinking beguiler for the skill points and class skills, and trapfinding never hurts. I think beguiler fits in better RP wise for me too. Also as everyone else in the group is going through their character ideas, they're all damage dealers/melee, so I'm not going to worry about trying to gish it up. If anything I think I need to fit extra music in there. And I think the Wild Cohort Feat is a pipe dream for now, and a lvl 8 companion isn't going to be all that helpful after 10, so might as well grab an ACF.


Thanks again for the info, responses, and suggestions. I appreciate it.