Question about Monk/Brawler and weapons that improve unarmed strikes

[KillianHawkeye]

So, I asked this question in Simple Q&A RAW thread for Pathfinder and got two opposing answers, so I figured I'd post it again for general discussion.


Q 54

Is there any rule somewhere that allows a Monk or other character with exceptional unarmed strike damage to deal their normal damage with weapons like the cestus or brass knuckles that supposedly improve your unarmed strikes? Or are you stuck with 1d3 when using them?


A 54 The descriptions of brass knuckles and cestus say they change your unarmed strike damage to lethal, so if you have one equipped and make an unarmed strike, you deal your unarmed damage, just lethal (and/or possibly piercing, in the case of the cestus). You only deal their damage as weapons if you specifically use them, not for using your unarmed strike.


A54 While normally the Cestus/Knuckle's lower damage dice would override your monk dice, there are a couple of ways around this; the easiest is probably Ascetic Strike.

So the question here is basically whether or not "unarmed strike"-based weapons like the cestus or brass knuckles are useful for somebody like a Monk or Brawler who gets a better unarmed strike damage progression, or if they're just for non-Monks and non-Brawlers who want options for punching things.

Thoughts? Was this ever put to the official Pathfinder FAQ?

I saw the Ascetic Strike feat, but it's like the third feat in the Ascetic fighting style feat chain, so I'd be a little bummed if that really was the "easiest" solution. :smallannoyed:

[exelsisxax]

For monks, the cestus allows you to deal B or P damage with unarmed strikes with hands. That's what the cestus says it does, that's what it does. It doesn't change your unarmed strike damage because it doesn't ever say anything about doing that.

If you are proficient with a cestus, your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage. Monks are proficient with the cestus.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes, but it also has a listed damage value for Small and Medium characters.

[exelsisxax]

Yes, but it also has a listed damage value for Small and Medium characters.

Irrelevant. You're making unarmed attacks as a monk, you don't care what the listed damage is.

[KillianHawkeye]

Irrelevant. You're making unarmed attacks as a monk, you don't care what the listed damage is.

If I agreed that it was irrelevant, I wouldn't have needed to make a thread about it. Basically, I'm looking for more than just an assertion. Thanks anyway for your contributions.

[The Kool]

As the weapon states,

your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage
The weapon affects the damage type that your unarmed strike is dealing. It can be used as a weapon in it's own right, but that's unrelated to this nifty ability it has.

[exelsisxax]

If I agreed that it was irrelevant, I wouldn't have needed to make a thread about it. Basically, I'm looking for more than just an assertion. Thanks anyway for your contributions.

Please go back and read my quote from the cestus, then proceed to the following:

the cestus allows proficient users to deal B or P damage on unarmed strikes
monks are proficient with the cestus and with unarmed strikes
monks deal unarmed strike damage according to level, not according to the weapon table
C: when a monk unarmed strikes, he deals damage according to level and may choose to do B or P damage if those strikes are with cestus-equipped hands.

Deduction is not assertion.

[Necroticplague]

So the question here is basically whether or not "unarmed strike"-based weapons like the cestus or brass knuckles are useful for somebody like a Monk or Brawler who gets a better unarmed strike damage progression, or if they're just for non-Monks and non-Brawlers who want options for punching things.
Yeah, those are mostly for non-monks/brawlers, and aren't very useful unless you expect disarms. Unless they explicitly count as an Unarmed Strike (the normal weapon you make Unarmed Attacks with), or improve it, they don't interact in a useful way.

A cestus's dual damage ability does augment a monk or brawler's unarmed strikes, but it wouldn't pass on any enhancements (since the Cestus and Unarmed Strike are still different weapons).

[Psyren]

Your easiest option is actually Brawler, because that's the point of their Close Weapon Mastery feature. You need this feature to override the listed weapon damage with your unarmed strike damage, and unlike the monk they get it for free. So if Brawler is on the table and you find Ascetic Strike unpalatable, use Brawler.

[Kris Moonhand]

Exelsisxax is, unfortunately, wrong. WAAAAAY back in 2010, one of the Paizo devs clarified that weapons with listed damage always do listed damage unless you have an ability to override that damage, such as Ascetic Style or Close Weapon Mastery. https:// paizo [dot] com/threads/rzs2kqan&page=2?Adventurers-Armory-Questions#50 (I'd post a proper link, but I'm not allowed to without ten comments under my belt, sadly.)

That said, you can always just use the handwraps weapon from the Martial Arts Handbook, which does do what you're looking for. (Once again, apologies for the bad link) https:// www [dot] aonprd [dot] com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Handwraps

[upho]

Kris Moonhand is correct also AFAIK. Although some things sorta changes this, such as the Monk of the Silver Fist.

But regardless, the handwraps may not necessarily be better than gauntlets or similar, and especially not an Amulet of Mighty Fists. And IME not nearly as good for most builds making unarmed strikes, since they only affect your hands. Whereas an AoMF affect your entire body (so works with natural attacks and things like Vicious Stomp), and gauntlets can be used simultaneously with an AoMF to grant magic weapon abilities not restricted to the specific weapon they're added to as long as it's wielded and/or "in hand" (such as courageous or training).

In effect, if you ever make natural attacks, unarmed strikes with body parts other than your fists (such as flying kick), or simply play past 6th level or so, an AoMF is typically superior, and grows ever more so the higher your level, regardless of gauntlets. And gauntlet "compatibility" is just another advantage of the AoMF which grows with level. So basically, the only potential advantage of the wraps is that they can be made to penetrate a material DR without the need for an enhancement bonus.

[Kris Moonhand]

See, most people I play with just kind of agree that the "hands-only" restriction is kinda bad and just allow them to work with all unarmed attacks. And even if you don't, it only really matters for Unchained Monk's style strikes ability. Even Vicious Stomp, which Upho mentioned, only requires an unarmed strike, not an attack with feet. (Paizo devs have previously clarified that a feat having a body part in the name, such as Punishing Kick or Stunning Fist, does not mean you literally have to attack with that body part if the rules text doesn't require it.)

Really, there's no need for unarmed people to have to pay double to improve their "weapon" compared to everyone else (not to mention taking up the valuable neck slot), especially when unarmed attacking is generally worse than using a sword. I'm just glad Paizo finally got around to admitting that the AoMF is overpriced.

[Necroticplague]

Exelsisxax is, unfortunately, wrong. WAAAAAY back in 2010, one of the Paizo devs clarified (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kqan&page=2?Adventurers-Armory-Questions#50) that weapons with listed damage always do listed damage unless you have an ability to override that damage, such as Ascetic Style or Close Weapon Mastery.

That said, you can always just use the handwraps (http://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Handwraps) weapon from the Martial Arts Handbook, which does do what you're looking for.
Err....how is he wrong? He's not saying anything that seems to contradict that.That link says that Cestus don't use your unarmed damage. He was entirely mentioning using your Unarmed Strike.

[upho]

I saw the Ascetic Strike feat, but it's like the third feat in the Ascetic fighting style feat chain, so I'd be a little bummed if that really was the "easiest" solution. :smallannoyed:Note that strictly according to RAW you only need the first feat - Ascetic Style - to add your monk unarmed strike damage or anything else which improves your unarmed strikes in any way to any weapon (though many weapons also require the versatile weapon mod of course). Yes, the two later feats in the chain are indeed completely redundant. This has been confirmed by the author Alexander Augunas. (You can read about what he actually intended in his Know Direction blog post (http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2016/01/guidance-alexs-top-10-least-favorite-pathfinder-design-choices/) - scroll down to "Ascetic Strike".)


Err....how is he wrong? He's not saying anything that seems to contradict that.That link says that Cestus don't use your unarmed damage. He was entirely mentioning using your Unarmed Strike.Exels isn't wrong in any way, and neither is Kris Moonhand wrong in basically saying that you can't have the magic of a magic cestus affect an unarmed strike in any way. It appears Kris Moonhand assumed Exels said that you could, while Exels actually only said that you can choose to deal P or B with an unarmed strike while wearing a cestus.

However:
WAAAAAY back in 2010, one of the Paizo devs clarified that weapons with listed damage always do listed damage unless you have an ability to override that damage, such as Ascetic Style or Close Weapon Mastery.Now that I've actually read that old thread again for the first time in six years or so, it's clear that not everything SKR says is actually what the PDT finally decided to go with. Most importantly, there are zero FAQ posts or errata for example dealing with gauntlets and their relation to UAS. Meaning gauntlet attacks are still lethal unarmed strikes or just as if made with any other light melee weapon (despite being listed as "natural"), so attacks while wearing them are still not affected by the monk UAS damage increase if they benefit from the gauntlets' enhancement bonus.


See, most people I play with just kind of agree that the "hands-only" restriction is kinda bad and just allow them to work with all unarmed attacks.I use the same house rule, and also allow them to work with natural attacks made using the arms/hands (normally meaning claws or slam). Unfortunately, for most builds other than those only full attacking with Flurry, they remain sub-par in comparison to an AoMF after early levels (more below).


And even if you don't, it only really matters for Unchained Monk's style strikes ability.Ooops... :smallredface: No idea why I said Vicious Stomp is affected; the "stomp" part is of course pure fluff, and the same is true for other similar feats. Damn dementia... :smallsigh: So yes, it only affects unarmed strikes made using certain options of the Un-Monk's style strikes feature, not things like Vicious Stomp.


Really, there's no need for unarmed people to have to pay double to improve their "weapon" compared to everyone elseWell, if you only attack with a single unarmed strike and its iteratives (= Flurry of Blows), this is true. But in all other cases it's not (TWF, one or more natural weapons, Ascetic Style with a wielded weapon, etc). And especially if you also - or only - make natural attacks, the AoMF is the cheapest weapon in the game when looking at the most relevant measure (=effect per gp). I mean, as part of a single full attack, an AoMF can enhance for example 10 primary natural attacks or 8 unarmed strikes and 7 secondary natural attacks, plus any free action attack rolls triggered by these attacks*.


(not to mention taking up the valuable neck slot),Why is the neck slot particularly valuable?

If this is about an Amulet of Natural Armor, I believe it's typically just over-priced garbage beyond perhaps a +2 bonus, and its benefit is generally best found elsewhere if actually needed. (As a comparison, a wand of CL 3 Barkskin (which grants 50 30-minute uses of +2 NA) costs 4.5k, and a CL 9 wand (+4 NA during 90 minutes) 13.5k, while a +2 AoNA costs 8k and a +4 AoNA 32k.)

And even if an AoNA (or other neck item) should somehow be crucial, you usually still save money by using an AoMF, despite having to pay an extra 50% for that item, because (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/handwraps/):

"A character can’t benefit from both handwraps and other items that provide enhancement bonuses or weapon special abilities (such as an amulet of mighty fists) on the same attack."

In contrast, by using an AoMF, you can have up to no less than six items simultaneously providing magic weapon benefits to each attack (AoMF, +1 Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes, +1 gauntlet x2, +X Ascetic Style weapon x2). Yes, you'll pay a premium on those gauntlet and especially BoMS abilities due to their required +1 bonus being redundant, but that still ends up vastly cheaper than having to pile all weapon abilities onto a single weapon.


especially when unarmed attacking is generally worse than using a sword.I'd say that's highly debatable, especially since they're not necessarily mutually exclusive when it comes to features, feats, items, spells, or any other "effects that augment" either one. Meaning you can for example easily have "unarmed strikes" threatening all spaces in a 35'+ radius with an 8d8 damage die, at least 1.5 x Str and x 3 Power Attack bonus to damage and grab before 20th. No other one-handed weapons can come close to this. And really, simply combining 1+ levels of monk with the feats Pummeling Charge (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat/) and Horn of the Criosphinx (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horn-of-the-criosphinx-combat/) can get you far ahead anything wielders of manufactured weapons are capable of.


I'm just glad Paizo finally got around to admitting that the AoMF is overpriced.The handwraps are certainly nice for the "Flurries", but considering the above, I seriously doubt this claim holds any truth outside that specific category of builds.

*Such as free action combat maneuver checks from a grab ability (Tetori Monk 8 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/tetori)), a pair of Giant Fist Gauntlets (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-giant-fist/), and/or Ascetic Style with a Maelstrom Shield (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-shields/maelstrom-shield/), Tempest Shield (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-shields/tempest-shield/), Hooked Massacre (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/hooked-massacre/) with Quick Reposition (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-reposition-combat/) (btw hilarious with Domino Crash (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/domino-crash-combat/), Crashing Wave Fist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crashing-wave-fist-combat/), especially if combined with a dueling (PFSG (http://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) )/psionic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons/#TOC-Dueling)) furious (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/furious/) leveraging (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/leveraging/) AoMF, for a +18 (+1 chain) to +42 (+5 chain) bonus to reposition), etc.

[Necroticplague]

Note that strictly according to RAW you only need the first feat - Ascetic Style - to add your monk unarmed strike damage or anything else which improves your unarmed strikes in any way to any weapon (though many weapons also require the versatile weapon mod of course). Yes, the two later feats in the chain are indeed completely redundant. This has been confirmed by the author Alexander Augunas. (You can read about what he actually intended in his Know Direction blog post (http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2016/01/guidance-alexs-top-10-least-favorite-pathfinder-design-choices/) - scroll down to "Ascetic Strike".)

Not completely. Ascetic Form still has use for class features that use unarmed strikes, but don't augment them, and Ascetic Strike can be used by non-monks to essentially get that feature. Yeah, they're not nearly as good, but they still have some use.