War wizard or blade singer

[Whit]

Hi. I am looking at making a high Elf multiclass wizard fighter. old school feel with twist. Starting melee with range cantrip then going secondary melee with more wizard lvls.

First 2 levels is dex based fighter with armor and his cantrip Spell. I get *fighting style defense * second wind and **action surge which is what i really want to make my wizard special.
If I get bracers or etc I would drop the armor at later lvls.
Reasons: old school feel of Elf fighter wizard wih a bonus. Action surge will allow me to cast another full spell after casting the first one ( please don’t argue this point, it’s been ruled by Crawford /Mearls).

What I would like help with is what’s better war wizard or blade singer. I won’t go into melee much except as back up. But when I do I would go shadow blade at low lvl and Mordenkainen sword at high lvl.

My action surge can be used for extra attacks if I go bladesinger. 4 attacks with M sword.
Or I can create interesting or devestating spell combos with action surge per long rest.

But is war wizard bladesinger better?

[Unoriginal]

Depends what you want. Bladesinger is probably more in tune with what you want, though.



You should probably avoid Mordenkainen's Sword, especially if you want to go in melee.

[MaxWilson]

But is war wizard bladesinger better?

Since you're building off of a Dex fighter chassis, War Wizard has better saves, but Bladesinger has better AC: you'll get more than the war wizard's +2 (eventual +4) to AC, and it will work against more than one attack per round, so if you're fighting anything with multiattack or multiple opponents Bladesinger wins.

That being said, just because you're a Dex-based fighter doesn't mean you have to wear light armor. Even if you go War Wizard, you can always put on plate armor for certain combats (and just live with 20' move, or offset it with Longstrider), which will give you an AC that's competitive with or superior to the Bladesinger, with no bonus action cost. However, that definitely would not have an old-school elf feel.

Given your play goals (old-school elf feel) I'd say you are exactly the Bladesinger's target audience. I wouldn't even bother with the fighter levels, just go pure Bladesinger from the get go, unless you feel like starting with Rogue 2. (Roguesinger = Rogue 2/Bladesinger X = Fighter/Mage/Thief.)

[NaughtyTiger]

War Magic is boring, but mechanically strong.

init bonus, means your control spells go earlier...
reaction for +4 to any save

power surge sucks, but ... at level 2.

eventually +2 to AC/saves for wizards doing their control spells.

[Man_Over_Game]

War Magic is boring, but mechanically strong.

init bonus, means your control spells go earlier...
reaction for +4 to any save

power surge sucks, but ... at level 2.

eventually +2 to AC/saves for wizards doing their control spells.

To add to this, the Bladesinger's AC bonus is always on, but the War Mage's AC/Save is for a single attack.

That seems to say that the War Mage is someone who's prepared to be targeted, and the Bladesinger plans on it. Which do you consider yourself?

[kenGarff]

My friend is currently a war wizard (well with a fighter dip). And it seems like the war wizard features sound boring but are incredibly strong. He has such great saves and other defensive stuff. Plus, you are still a wizard so you can do all sorts of crazy things!

[MaxWilson]

To add to this, the Bladesinger's AC bonus is always on, but the War Mage's AC/Save is for a single attack.

That seems to say that the War Mage is someone who's prepared to be targeted, and the Bladesinger plans on it. Which do you consider yourself?

Well, not "always on." It's not on before your first turn (or your second turn if you're surprised), or if you run out of Bladesong, or if you have a better use for your bonus action, or if you get incapacitated. A War Mage in plate armor will be more durable than a Bladesinger when surprised or under constant attack; but he won't be very elfy.

[Rukelnikov]

Well, not "always on." It's not on before your first turn (or your second turn if you're surprised), or if you run out of Bladesong, or if you have a better use for your bonus action, or if you get incapacitated. A War Mage in plate armor will be more durable than a Bladesinger when surprised or under constant attack; but he won't be very elfy.

And will be less durable when he isn't surprised and uses his defensive features.

[WeaselGuy]

I'm currently playing a High Elf War Wizard, and I do love it. I'm toeing that line between blaster and buff, depending on what is called on. Our rogues love getting Haste and Greater Invis, and our Barbarian puts up with being hit by Fireball splash damage. Hold Person and Counterspell are definitely bread and butter type spells, and (currently we're level 7) while +3 damage to any spell isn't fabulous, it's still an extra free damage. Having my intelligence bonus added to my Initiative means that I almost always get to go first, which is always fantastic.

All that being said, Bladesinger is probably more in line with what you're hoping for, from an old-school feel. I mostly just went with War Wizard for fluffy reasons.

[MaxWilson]

And will be less durable when he isn't surprised and uses his defensive features.

No, he'll be about the same. AC 20 + Shield is comparable to AC 13 (Mage Armor) + Dex + Int (Bladesong) + Shield. Bladesinger may or may not come out a point ahead on AC (depending on whether or not he invests in Dex 16+ in addition to Int 20) but the War Wizard comes out ahead on saves. Bladesinger is definitely more mobile but that's not the same thing as durable, although they both contribute to "survivable."

[Rukelnikov]

No, he'll be about the same. AC 20 + Shield is comparable to AC 13 (Mage Armor) + Dex + Int (Bladesong) + Shield. Bladesinger may or may not come out a point ahead on AC (depending on whether or not he invests in Dex 16+ in addition to Int 20) but the War Wizard comes out ahead on saves. Bladesinger is definitely more mobile but that's not the same thing as durable, although they both contribute to "survivable."

I was assuming pumping both Dex and Int, and Bladesingers can burn slots to mitigate damage.

Late game:

18 + 2 + Shield vs 13 + 5 + 5 + Shield

Bottom line, once you get +7 between Dex and Int both are on par (that should be lvl 4, and actually its pretty rare to get plate before that, so even early on is BS >= WW ), afterwards stat bumps put Bladesinger ahead. Saves definitely go for WW though.

[MaxWilson]

I was assuming pumping both Dex and Int, and Bladesingers can burn slots to mitigate damage.

"Burning slots to mitigate damage" via Song of Defense is usually worse than just casting Counterspell, Shield or Absorb Elements; I don't consider that a significant advantage for the Bladesinger. Certainly less so than the War Wizard's bonus to saving throws, which works against some things that Counterspell/Shield/Absorb Elements cannot help with (e.g. Abominable Yeti paralyzation gaze).


Late game:

18 + 2 + Shield vs 13 + 5 + 5 + Shield

Bottom line, once you get +7 between Dex and Int both are on par (that should be lvl 4), afterwars stat bumps put Bladesinger ahead. Saves definitely go for WW though.

If you pump both Dex and Int, then yes, the Bladesinger has a higher eventual AC, but now the War Wizard has a bunch of extra ASIs--if he does the same thing as the Bladesinger and opts to spend them on defense (Lucky, Tough, and Heavy Armor Master perhaps?) he gets a similar amount of benefit. They're comparable--which one comes out ahead will depend on which monsters you're fighting and how many there are.

[Rukelnikov]

If you pump both Dex and Int, then yes, the Bladesinger has a higher eventual AC, but now the War Wizard has a bunch of extra ASIs--if he does the same thing as the Bladesinger and opts to spend them on defense (Lucky, Tough, and Heavy Armor Master perhaps?) he gets a similar amount of benefit. They're comparable.

Both should get Int to 20 though, and can start with dex 16. That alone puts Bladesinger a point ahead, if later on BS opts to keep increasing Dex for a wider gap in faver of Tough, Lucky, etc is another thing. HAM does make a difference though, so yeah, they are comparable (but WW took a dip in fighter)

[Mercurias]

If you want to play an armored character who focuses primarily on melee, I'm going to suggest War Wizard. It has fewer overall melee combat options, but Bladesinger's primary ability requires no armor or shield. You don't get to use your second attack when you use a melee cantrip like Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade anyway.

Your mileage may very. I hope you enjoy your game, no matter what you pick!

[spartan_ah]

Level 12 bladesinger here. playing almost 2 years. when you'll reach high levels (by that i mean 10, 11, 12) you will feel underpowered as a martial and melee and your magic is waaaaay better than swinging a sword (yes I have a moonblade, still over shun by the paladin) so swinging was awesome until these levels, now animate objects and summon demons is much more important then swinging my blade

[Griswold]

First 2 levels is dex based fighter with armor and his cantrip Spell. I get *fighting style defense * second wind and **action surge which is what i really want to make my wizard special.
If I get bracers or etc I would drop the armor at later lvls.
...
But is war wizard bladesinger better?

I just want to point out that that if you're using the defensive fighting style then you have to be wearing armor to get the +1 bonus. You don't get that bonus if you're using just using Mage Armor. You also can't wear Medium or Heavy armor and Bladesing. Which means your AC options are:


Mage Armor: 13 AC + Dex, but your fighting style is pointless.
Studded Leather: 13 AC + Dex, which is the same as above unless you get magic armor.
Breastplate: 15 AC + Dex (max 2), which is only better until your Dex hits 18, but you can't Bladesing.

Taking Defensive style fighting is thus only useful for you as a Bladesinger if you have magic studded leather armor. I don't think that's worth it.
For a War Mage? Go strength instead of Dex, and take Defensive Style + Plate Mail + Shield!