Nobody else ever wants to be a Cleric

[jaappleton]

Playing CoS. If you've played CoS, you KNOW how important it is to be a Cleric (or Paladin). There's something there that requires it.

We've had 3 character deaths so far.

I'm the Cleric. And honestly I'm getting a bit tired of keeping everyone alive.

As an experienced player, I know factually that if I were another class, I could... what's the technical term... utterly and devastatingly wreck enemies. However, as I said, someone needs to be a Cleric.

We've all talked about backup characters, as CoS has a high mortality rate. And they've made Rogues, Wizards, etc...

Still no Cleric, or even Paladin...

I want to change classes because then I could kill enemies quite quickly based on numerous builds I have. But... then nobody will be the Cleric or Paladin, which means that particular thing you NEED to be one for can't happen.

Its so damn frustrating to be relegated to this role, I figured I was being a team player by being a Cleric. And don't get me wrong, I LIKE Clerics. I think they're well designed. But I've been a Cleric so often that its... Ugh. Its like liking pizza, and eating it every single day for months. You just don't want any more pizza, y'know?

Its not even the healing that's gotten me frustrated. Its the decision making of the party that's killing me.

I've expressed and performed tactics which have greatly turned battles in our favor, so help our success. But for some reason people think that means they don't need to do anything smart on their own. Sure, fine, let's all just camp out in the middle of a field and risk an ambush, that's FINE. No, nobody take Mold Earth so we can dig ourselves a massive den and hide. Nobody take Rope Trick or Leomund's Tiny Hut or ANYTHING to give us a safe place for a respite. Nope...

-sigh-

[stoutstien]

Playing CoS. If you've played CoS, you KNOW how important it is to be a Cleric (or Paladin). There's something there that requires it.

We've had 3 character deaths so far.

I'm the Cleric. And honestly I'm getting a bit tired of keeping everyone alive.

As an experienced player, I know factually that if I were another class, I could... what's the technical term... utterly and devastatingly wreck enemies. However, as I said, someone needs to be a Cleric.

We've all talked about backup characters, as CoS has a high mortality rate. And they've made Rogues, Wizards, etc...

Still no Cleric, or even Paladin...

I want to change classes because then I could kill enemies quite quickly based on numerous builds I have. But... then nobody will be the Cleric or Paladin, which means that particular thing you NEED to be one for can't happen.

Its so damn frustrating to be relegated to this role, I figured I was being a team player by being a Cleric. And don't get me wrong, I LIKE Clerics. I think they're well designed. But I've been a Cleric so often that its... Ugh. Its like liking pizza, and eating it every single day for months. You just don't want any more pizza, y'know?

Its not even the healing that's gotten me frustrated. Its the decision making of the party that's killing me.

I've expressed and performed tactics which have greatly turned battles in our favor, so help our success. But for some reason people think that means they don't need to do anything smart on their own. Sure, fine, let's all just camp out in the middle of a field and risk an ambush, that's FINE. No, nobody take Mold Earth so we can dig ourselves a massive den and hide. Nobody take Rope Trick or Leomund's Tiny Hut or ANYTHING to give us a safe place for a respite. Nope...

-sigh-

Sounds like your table is playing the wrong campaign. Like you said CoS is about smart moves and resource management and it sounds like your party wants to go full gauntlet legends.
If your not having fun you need to let the table know.

[Unoriginal]

Have you considered taking Celestial Warlock instead?


Sounds like your table is playing the wrong campaign. Like you said CoS is about smart moves and resource management and it sounds like your party wants to go full gauntlet legends.
If your not having fun you need to let the table know.

This, too.

[kenGarff]

I think if you were to express frustration to your party, they'd understand and make changes (even multiclassing) to let you off from being a cleric all the time. My party of friends have also began to multiclass (i.e. we have a wizard who took a fighter dip for medium armor and shield proficiency to have better survivability since our life cleric died and does not wish to be a cleric anymore). I don't think the wizard really wanted to dip into fighter but he made some adjustments.

Anyways, I wish your situation gets better and you can play a non-cleric soon!

edit: Also, if possible you could look into divine soul sorc esp if you can start from higher level...or even a sorcadin with divine soul.

[Man_Over_Game]

Sometimes, people are just straight selfish. It happens, unfortunately. The GWM PAM Sentinel Fighter Murderhobo build wouldn't be cliché if nobody took it.

Talk to your DM. Maybe he sees this trend, and might be willing to grant a magic item or two that helps fill the role that a Cleric does (as a holy protector/healer). Heck, a recharging ring that emits Daylight could be rather useful without being overpowered.

[jaappleton]

Have you considered taking Celestial Warlock instead?



This, too.

There's a very powerful item, a particular Holy Symbol, in Curse of Strahd. It requires attunement by a Good-aligned Cleric or Paladin.

And not only am I the only Cleric, and there are no Paladins, but I'm also one of only TWO Spellcasters in the party.

So its not really like I can go "Well I'll be a Paladin", because... I'd be hurting our overall resources.

While I really like Celestial Warlocks, I can't. Because then nobody can use that Holy Symbol.

[Man_Over_Game]

There's a very powerful item, a particular Holy Symbol, in Curse of Strahd. It requires attunement by a Good-aligned Cleric or Paladin.

And not only am I the only Cleric, and there are no Paladins, but I'm also one of only TWO Spellcasters in the party.

So its not really like I can go "Well I'll be a Paladin", because... I'd be hurting our overall resources.

While I really like Celestial Warlocks, I can't. Because then nobody can use that Holy Symbol.

Depends on how strict your DM is. If it's an AL game, that's part of the problem with AL (People make random builds regardless of team makeup).

If your DM is new or oblivious to the problem, then he might keep the item the same, but any good DM makes exceptions as needed.

And this sounds like it's needed.

[jaappleton]

I think if you were to express frustration to your party, they'd understand and make changes (even multiclassing) to let you off from being a cleric all the time. My party of friends have also began to multiclass (i.e. we have a wizard who took a fighter dip for medium armor and shield proficiency to have better survivability since our life cleric died and does not wish to be a cleric anymore). I don't think the wizard really wanted to dip into fighter but he made some adjustments.

Anyways, I wish your situation gets better and you can play a non-cleric soon!

edit: Also, if possible you could look into divine soul sorc esp if you can start from higher level...or even a sorcadin with divine soul.

Divine Soul is the only other spellcaster. Thankfully this person is a more experienced player, understand the need to round out the party, etc.

As far as expressing it to the party, I did. I said, "Hey, on D&D Beyond, I made another 'campaign' so we can make backup characters there in the builder" (There's a strict character limit per campaign, so I made a dummy campaign for backups). I also mentioned how it'd be great to have another Cleric or maybe a Paladin because... y'know. VAMPIRES, and other ungodly creatures ready to kill us.

And they made an Assassin, a Scout, an Evoker and a Dragonic Sorcerer....

......Am I out of line to be frustrated a bit?

[Unoriginal]

There's a very powerful item, a particular Holy Symbol, in Curse of Strahd. It requires attunement by a Good-aligned Cleric or Paladin.

And not only am I the only Cleric, and there are no Paladins, but I'm also one of only TWO Spellcasters in the party.

So its not really like I can go "Well I'll be a Paladin", because... I'd be hurting our overall resources.

While I really like Celestial Warlocks, I can't. Because then nobody can use that Holy Symbol.

It might be powerful, but it's not *required*. And I find that any feeling one "need" to build a character around a magic item is best avoided.

Are you the Cleric of the Powerful Holy Symbol?


https://youtu.be/KQvhX-3CkJM

[stoutstien]

There's a very powerful item, a particular Holy Symbol, in Curse of Strahd. It requires attunement by a Good-aligned Cleric or Paladin.

And not only am I the only Cleric, and there are no Paladins, but I'm also one of only TWO Spellcasters in the party.

So its not really like I can go "Well I'll be a Paladin", because... I'd be hurting our overall resources.

While I really like Celestial Warlocks, I can't. Because then nobody can use that Holy Symbol.
You can complete every part of CoS without a pally or cleric it just a tad harder. I've seen it done with a druid, barb, fighter, bard, wizard combo with only a few near tpk which is common in open format sandbox campaigns like this one.
* I did allow the daylight spell to be actually daylight. Same for sun beam

[Unoriginal]

......Am I out of line to be frustrated a bit?

No, I wouldn't say so. Being frustrated in this situation is normal.


But you've been given several possible solutions already. Talk with your fellow gamers, or stop worrying about playing Clerics and/or Paladins. At worse you'll just get characters butchered in a meatgrinder campaign, so is it really that bad?

[Imbalance]

In character, spend a significant portion of your next session fervently beseeching your deity to send another of your blessed order to aid in the destruction of evil.

[kenGarff]

Divine Soul is the only other spellcaster. Thankfully this person is a more experienced player, understand the need to round out the party, etc.

As far as expressing it to the party, I did. I said, "Hey, on D&D Beyond, I made another 'campaign' so we can make backup characters there in the builder" (There's a strict character limit per campaign, so I made a dummy campaign for backups). I also mentioned how it'd be great to have another Cleric or maybe a Paladin because... y'know. VAMPIRES, and other ungodly creatures ready to kill us.

And they made an Assassin, a Scout, an Evoker and a Dragonic Sorcerer....

......Am I out of line to be frustrated a bit?

Hmm...I guess they are a bit selfish then. Could you ask them to at least multiclass and/or switch races around to have tankier PCs then? For instance...that evoker could dipe into fighter for CON save, medium armor (hope he takes some dex...), and a shield. That will make it so he won't get one shotted! And maybe you could ask the sorcerer to be a sorcadin and try to tempt him by saying sorcadin is super strong (and super tanky)! These changes to be drastic for RP purposes as well but I think they should make some adjustments as well instead of having one player sacrifice his fun for everyone else. I hope your situation plays out well...

[Mitsu]

I am really surprised that you have no Paladins!

From my own expericence Paladin is the most taken class right after Fighter. Like so far I have seen only one party without Paladin. It's very often I have 2 Paladins in party.

Considering Paladins are no longer bound by morality from previous editions- It's easy to be evil, treacherous, murderhobo (duh..), overlord, assassin-paladin etc etc.

As for lack of Cleric, I see the same problem, especially in AL where I DM from time to time. Imo it's because:

1. Divine Soul Sorcerer can grab a lot of crucial Cleric stuff and still bring more pain and support to the party. Twin Heal anyone? Twin Revivify? Extended Aid and Death Ward? Even better, just add 1 level of Life Cleric. Done, heavy armor and healing boost and meta-magic.
2. Paladins have access to a lot of supportive powers while being strongest melee nova class in game and are considered by many best class in 5e.
3. Sorcadins. Especially Divine Soul ones. Add 1 + 2.
4. Druids. Shep Druid can heal a lot and have a lot more "fire power" due to his summons. Also Druid/1 Life Cleric is a very common multiclass for OP goodberries.
5. Celestial Divine Pact of Chain Sorlocks. 3 Warlock/17 Sorcerer. Classic Sorlock. But combining Celestial + Divine Soul give you a character who has access to top healing spells while being a blaster with EB + Quicken EB, totally outclassing Cleric.

All those options are better in team than pure Cleric, and imo option 1, 4 and 5 totally outclass Cleric in healing and support department while having much bigger impact on battle and superior offensive options. Divine Soul Sorcadins can do a lot of support while being mega-tanks and Nova like crazy.

Imo Cleric is just way too weak vs some of best multiclass builds or subclasses.

[xroads]

We've had 3 character deaths so far.

...

I want to change classes because then I could kill enemies quite quickly based on numerous builds I have. But... then nobody will be the Cleric or Paladin, which means that particular thing you NEED to be one for can't happen.

I recommend just going ahead and changing class to whatever you want to play. Perhaps play your character a touch more recklessly and try to go out in a blaze of glory (but don't Leroy Jenkins it). Once nature takes it's course, play a different class.

Eventually someone else will probably play the cleric. And if not, you guys will just have a few more tombstones to put up at the end of the game.

[Thrudd]

If you don't want to be a cleric, don't be a cleric. It's that simple. The game works just fine without one. If characters are always dying, that's sort of a sign that they aren't playing smart enough, or it's just a really hard campaign. Yes, having a cleric in a campaign you know will be undead heavy is smart, but you still don't need one. Don't play what you don't want to play.

[Corran]

......Am I out of line to be frustrated a bit?
Well, no, but this is not an important question, because adjusting what you expect to get out of the game (if you can do it) is a better solution than taking turns at playing cleric or whatever. Don't go into the campaign with the aim of ''winning'' it in the cleanest fastest way. Go into the campaign thinking that losses are inevitable, and with the aim to do the best out of a bad situation. Since there is no guarantee that character deaths will slow down (since this is not the primary goal of the players, and one player alone can hardly influence this situation), I would suggest not choosing to play character concepts you planned and waited a long time to give them a go. Instead why not roll some random characters? It seems to me that you would appreciate a fresh and random approach.

[CTurbo]

Clerics are normally very popular and I really like Clerics too, but there will never be a time where l will be forced to play one, or any class for that matter.

My best advice is next time just simply play what you want to play. If nobody wants to be a Cleric or Paladin just deal with the consequences. It'd still be fun.

[brainface]

Divine Soul is the only other spellcaster. Thankfully this person is a more experienced player, understand the need to round out the party, etc.

As far as expressing it to the party, I did. I said, "Hey, on D&D Beyond, I made another 'campaign' so we can make backup characters there in the builder" (There's a strict character limit per campaign, so I made a dummy campaign for backups). I also mentioned how it'd be great to have another Cleric or maybe a Paladin because... y'know. VAMPIRES, and other ungodly creatures ready to kill us.

And they made an Assassin, a Scout, an Evoker and a Dragonic Sorcerer....

......Am I out of line to be frustrated a bit?

This seems like... like when you're playing some online game and you're doing an instanced dungeon or whatever, you can have a carefully curated group meant to cover all angles, with each build coordinated together, or you can get a pug group which is you take whatever you get and you run with it and hope for the best.

It feels like you're anticipating the former and instead you're playing with the latter. If the other players just don't have a mindset where they value party composition, and instead they're in pug mode, you're best off just accepting pug mode in my mind and not worrying about it. You can either carry or the pug or choose to screw around a bit. Right now you're carrying the pug, or at least it sounds like you feel that way.

To put it another way, you're not really out of line, but neither are the other players, you're just expecting different things.

[Sigreid]

So, play what you want. There's no obligation to you to play a character you dont want to play. Just tell them what you're going to play.

At my table I usually wind up as the wizard. I told the group Sunday that next character I play will not be a wizard, sorcerer or bard.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Divine Soul is the only other spellcaster. Thankfully this person is a more experienced player, understand the need to round out the party, etc.

As far as expressing it to the party, I did. I said, "Hey, on D&D Beyond, I made another 'campaign' so we can make backup characters there in the builder" (There's a strict character limit per campaign, so I made a dummy campaign for backups). I also mentioned how it'd be great to have another Cleric or maybe a Paladin because... y'know. VAMPIRES, and other ungodly creatures ready to kill us.

And they made an Assassin, a Scout, an Evoker and a Dragonic Sorcerer....

......Am I out of line to be frustrated a bit?

I don't think you're out of line to be frustrated necessarily. But there's one thing I don't quite understand (perhaps since I've never played CoS?). Why are you playing cleric?

I mean, I understand what you're saying about the holy McGuffin item and who can use it. But...why are you letting that effect your choices? Not knocking you here, but isn't that an awfully meta thing to do?

In terms of how selfish the other players are being, can I ask whether you've shared this bit of meta-knowledge with them? Or if they already know it otherwise, either from the campaign play itself or through their own out-of-game meta-research into the module? If they don't know why you're so focused upon there being a cleric or paladin in the group, then they aren't being selfish, they're just playing the game normally. If they do know about it, then they might be selfish. Or they might just be choosing to ignore a particular bit of meta-knowledge which they really aren't supposed to know, and are simply doing their best to play the game straight?

Like I said, I don't know if this bit about the holy relic is something the PCs learn in-game. If so, just ignore everything I've said. But if not, I think you should calm down about their choices, and just switch characters to who/whatever you really want to be playing.

[zinycor]

Well, I f you can have back up characters, why do you even care about party effectiveness? Just tryout your new build, worst case scenario, a horrible tpk happens... then you just pick another back-up character and continue playing.

And if you got tired of this character, well... that's your problem, the characters others are playing is of no concern to you. If there is another player, who also cares for party balance, then you both can get to some sort arrangement where you end up in a more balanced party.

But if not, you either stay playing the cleric or start playing in an unbalanced party or get a new group.

Personally, when I was the GM for CoS my 4 players picked clerics. So... It wasn't that hard xD... Damn clerics are OP xD.

[Willie the Duck]

Playing CoS. If you've played CoS, you KNOW how important it is to be a Cleric (or Paladin). There's something there that requires it.

Well, as others have pointed out, you don't have to have a cleric or paladin for CoS. More importantly, however, is whether they know it (and if so, why are you all playing a module you all already know that kind of information?)?


And honestly I'm getting a bit tired of keeping everyone alive.
...Its so damn frustrating to be relegated to this role
......Am I out of line to be frustrated a bit?

These are definitely the things I can sympathize with the most. I've often been relegated to the tank role because everyone else wants to play spellcasters and squishies, and that was very frustrating. Any time you feel hedged in by the rest of your group's choices, that's a problem. And the best solution is communication. 'Hey, on D&D Beyond, I made another 'campaign' so we can make backup characters there in the builder' is a pretty far cry from 'Hey, I feel forced into this role as party cleric because no one else seems willing to consider party survival in their build decisions and it is really getting old.' I can get why they aren't getting your hint.

Regardless...

As an experienced player, I know factually that if I were another class, I could... what's the technical term... utterly and devastatingly wreck enemies.
...
I want to change classes because then I could kill enemies quite quickly based on numerous builds I have.
...
I've expressed and performed tactics which have greatly turned battles in our favor, so help our success. But for some reason people think that means they don't need to do anything smart on their own. Sure, fine, let's all just camp out in the middle of a field and risk an ambush, that's FINE. No, nobody take Mold Earth so we can dig ourselves a massive den and hide. Nobody take Rope Trick or Leomund's Tiny Hut or ANYTHING to give us a safe place for a respite. Nope...

-sigh-

This does not sound like it is related to clerics. This sounds like you and the rest of your group have different expectations about playstyle. This too sounds like a time to sit down and communicate. Bring forth these points, and determine if it is their tactical thinking, your expectations, or a mix of the two that need to be addressed.

[Fat Rooster]

It's a game. Success is not victory, success is having fun.

From what you have said, I would recommend rolling up an Int 6 half orc barbarian, and playing it in character. Enjoy the car crash of incompetence around you as you smash heads and apply considerable creativity to how your int 6 character would make things worse (LEEROY!!!). Expecting your group to play well, never mind metagame build a party for success, is setting yourself up for frustration. It is important to realise that it is your expectations that are causing frustration, and that it is far easier to change your expectations than force other people (that are enjoying themselves) to change. If the party is not a well oiled machine, trying to derive your enjoyment from coordination and intelligent team play is not going to work. You need to find some other way to enjoy the game, because the party is not going to suddenly become competent.

It is not "out of line" to want something slightly different from a game than the other players. A game with experienced players that can believably function like a group of int 16+ wizards is extremely enjoyable to be part of, but very rare. More common is a rag tag crew with entirely the wrong skill set and no idea how to work together going through a whirlwind of chaos in roughly the correct direction.

You could build a wreck everything character, but all you would end up doing is overshadowing everybody else. Nobody else would be having fun, and the element in the game that didn't fit would be you. Not a good idea. Building to fit the situation means not powergaming in a low powered game, and your fun should come before party power.

[MeeposFire]

Stop playing as the cleric. If you are not having fun do not play it. The game does not need a cleric and neither does that module. If nobody can use the amulet that is fine that just means you need to find another solution or you need to quest to find someone who can.

If you think this is bad behavior realize you are currently enabling it. Play something you like and all of you do your best. The group may have to be even more careful since you will not have as much restorative powers but you can still do it. Also things like the healer and inspirational leader feats can be a big help and work on non-cleric classes.

[NecessaryWeevil]

When we played that campaign we had...let's see...a Druid, a Celestial Warlock / Divine Soul Sorceror, an Open Hand Monk, and a Vengeance Paladin.

So we had a PC who *could* use the symbol, but as I recall it was underwhelming. In an early encounter with Strahd, I recall he shrugged off the paralysis effect and tanked the radiant damage. The other two encounters with vampire spawn occurred before we had the symbol. We managed, especially due to Moon Druid tankyness and a few Gifts. Which is a roundabout way of saying I think you can cope without the symbol. Of course, it's possible your DM plays it differently, and we had more of a teamplay mindset.

Now the Sword, on the other hand...

[Kadesh]

And they made an Assassin, a Scout, an Evoker and a Dragonic Sorcerer....

......Am I out of line to be frustrated a bit?
Ye, kinda.

You made a "heal slut". If you didn't, you wouldn't make one. If you want to assist the party, consider the following;

There are plenty of ways of playing Healing Mitigation. Take a Human Life Cleric 1/Shepherd Druid with Inspiring Leader. Sure, your low level slots are burned on Goodberries, Healing Words and Healing Spirits, and the like. But the party has like 20-30 better HP every day without you spending a spell slot courtesy of Inspiring Leader. Throw down a pair of Giant Constrictor Snakes with your Conjure Animals, and all of a sudden, you've now got a pair of Huge 76HP Tarpits, Restraining Creatures with a +6 Attack you can grant advantage on.

You don't have Revivify now, but tell your Divine Soul Sorc to pick it up.

Alternatively, you play what you want, and let the dice lie where the dice lie.

[Willie the Duck]

Now the Sword, on the other hand...

They have a rogue, someone has short-or-long-sword proficiency. They're good.

[jaappleton]

To those saying I have meta knowledge of the module:

During the Tarokka reading, our DM revealed what each item is. Sunsword, Holy Symbol Of Ravenkind, these words were said by Madame Eva.

Do I know all the properties of the Symbol? No. Do I know pretty much what it can do? Yes, due to some streams I watch (Dice, Camera, Action). FWIW, I watched them play it years ago and never thought I’d actually play CoS myself. I also don’t remember every little detail, nor should I, as their DM Chris Perkins heavily caters the adventures to that party and their overarching story.

Example: Do I know what’s in the windmill? YUP, if memory serves. Does my PC? No. Did my PC want to go into the windmill? Yes, but the party voted against investigating for now.

And I didn’t make my PC with that knowledge. I started off as a Druid, he died saving the party in the coffin maker’s shop. “So why’d you go Cleric?” Because nobody else was Wisdom focused.

[NecessaryWeevil]

They have a rogue, someone has short-or-long-sword proficiency. They're good.

I probably wasn't clear, sorry. I wasn't asking whether someone could use it - I just meant that I found the sword more impressive than the symbol.

[Cikomyr]

Don't play the cleric if you don't wanna play the cleric.

Play to have fun, and pick a class you wanna play without reservation.

If someone tells you "well we need someone to heal us", thank them for voluntaring.

[sleepy hedgehog]

I only build my character taking into account the other party members if there is an in character reason for that to happen.
For example, if we are part of a squad who was specifically recruited to cover all bases.
Otherwise, I'm playing whatever concept I have that seems most fun.

I'm not particularly familiar with CoS.
But I'd be pretty annoyed with the person telling me that my character didn't jive with the unfilled roles.
In the same way I'd be annoyed with someone metagaming the stats of the enemies.

[Kadesh]

“So why’d you go Cleric?” Because nobody else was Wisdom focused.

ye, you only have yourself to blame.

[Snowbluff]

It's weird, because clerics and paladins are certifiably badass.

In general, I have a bad history with vampires. People not doing the radiant damage, etc. I one played Best Friends Forever, the cleric screwed me out of a protective bracelet, and when we got to the boss fight the cleric died first, then the warlock (Celestial) ran and hid instead of providing the valuable radiant damage we needed to succeed.

In short, I think there are a lot of ways of dealing radiant damage at low to mid level, off the top of my head Clerics, Paladins, Druids, certain Warlocks, picky bards. However, vampire fights without them are super hard. Make sure you have at least one of them on your team.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, don't play something you won't enjoy.

If you feel the need you could consider some multiclassing - Wizard with a level of cleric seems popular. Predominantly different class but ticking the cleric box (I assume that the condition of use is "cleric" not "lots of levels of cleric". Not played the module.

Maybe try some less stereotypical builds - dexterity paladin for example, add the mobile feat for a very different style of play.

[Guy Lombard-O]

To those saying I have meta knowledge of the module:

During the Tarokka reading, our DM revealed what each item is. Sunsword, Holy Symbol Of Ravenkind, these words were said by Madame Eva.

Do I know all the properties of the Symbol? No. Do I know pretty much what it can do? Yes, due to some streams I watch (Dice, Camera, Action). FWIW, I watched them play it years ago and never thought I’d actually play CoS myself.

And I didn’t make my PC with that knowledge. I started off as a Druid, he died saving the party in the coffin maker’s shop. “So why’d you go Cleric?” Because nobody else was Wisdom focused.

Hey, fair enough. I don't fault you, as the most experienced player in your group, for trying to maximize a bit to fill the role you believe (or even sorta know) the party is most likely to need. Picking cleric for the Wis skills, the healing and the radiant damage was probably a wise choice (sorry, couldn't resist), especially if it was a mid-module replacement character. I myself have chosen characters/classes which I think will most help the team (although never going so far as to play something I wasn't pretty much wanting to do anyhow).

But it seems that your inclination to help the noobs has backfired in an un-fun way, and is approaching the breaking point. As most other posters here have said, it's time to cut bait and go a different direction...even if that direction is full speed into a brick wall. Stop worrying about your fellows so much that it's killing your fun. Go enjoy being brainless and suboptimal with them. Relish the train wreck. Watch learning happen at the table as the players marvel over that TPK.


(Snowbluff) "In short, I think there are a lot of ways of dealing radiant damage at low to mid level, off the top of my head Clerics, Paladins, Druids, certain Warlocks, picky bards. However, vampire fights without them are super hard. Make sure you have at least one of them on your team."

Also, zealot barbarian.

[Merudo]

Playing CoS. If you've played CoS, you KNOW how important it is to be a Cleric (or Paladin). There's something there that requires it.

We've had 3 character deaths so far.

I'm the Cleric. And honestly I'm getting a bit tired of keeping everyone alive.


Stop playing a Cleric if you don't want to! You already did your part by playing Cleric for so long. If the party wants a Cleric that badly, another player should pick up the slack and take over as a Cleric.

If your adamant that its your responsibility to play as Cleric/Paladin, here are a few solutions:


Play a non-healing Cleric with a corresponding domain (Arcana/Light/Tempest/etc)
Play as a Paladin using its spellslots for offense
Multiclass with a single level Cleric dip, such as Wizard/Cleric or Bard/Cleric
Multiclass with 2 levels of Paladin, such as the Sorcadin or Padlock.

[GreyBlack]

So if you've ever seen my posts on cleric, you'll know that I'm... upset... at this incarnation of my favorite class.

So my advice: Stop trying to heal people.

As the cleric, throw up support spells to help people out. Your responsibility is not to save them from their mistakes; it's too make everyone else better at what they do.

If they die, that's their problem. You do you.

Sure, a well timed heal might be the best thing you can do for the party but you can't just straight up output healing like that.

That said... no one _has_ to play the Cleric.

5e is set up in such a way that you never need any one class. A bard or druid would work for support; if you wanted to play a more martial holy warrior, the Devotion Paladin works well...

Buuuut... never feel like you have to heal the group. Sometimes, you get your point across by just telling your group, "I have no healing spells prepared for today. If you die, that's on you." I'm currently running a Tempest Cleric in ToA and having a blast. I have cast 1 Cure Wounds all game; the rest has been either buffing the party, casting divination spells, battlefield control, or blasting. And the party _loves_ this.

So you do you. Just don't feel like you have to save everyone.

[Keravath]

Cast spirit guardians, have as high an AC as possible and wade into melee as a secondary tank. Cleric only really needs healing word to get characters back on their feet when they hit zero and you have a backup divine soul who should also have healing word.

Toss out a spiritual weapon to give you a bonus action attack as well.

Try to have resilient con to keep the spirit guardians going. However, bless and spiritual weapon would also be a good choice.

Cleric in 5E does not need to be played as a heal bot.

[djreynolds]

When I played CoS, I was a Hill dwarf life cleric..... yes it is tough watching everyone else make silly builds and die

But you can do oodles of damage

What are you concentrating on for spells? Sometimes bless is not the best spell.

Often I would cast protection from evil on others, or shield of faith on others.

Upcasted guiding bolt can be quite nasty, and so can upcasted inflict wounds

Sometimes I casted spirit guardians and hung back and used this as "you come to me for healing and spammed sacred flame and guiding bolt

Other times I charged into melee, and then in the middle of the throng I would cast spirit guardians like a 15ft radiant AoE. Grab warcaster and you can punish fools fleeing from you, even with just inflict wounds or booming blade/green flame blade if you have it

And sometimes your just casting the bless spell on everyone else, and spamming sacred flame. My strength was a 14, so my melee attacks were not that powerful, but my wisdom was maxed out

What kind of cleric archetype are you playing?

Also its not cheesy to dip a level of druid for shillelagh, or just grab magic initiate.

[LudicSavant]

Cleric in 5E does not need to be played as a heal bot.

Yeah. Clerics weren't healbots in previous editions, either. The bias seems to come from outside influences.

[OverLordOcelot]

Cleric in 5E does not need to be played as a heal bot.

Clerics have traditionally not been heal bots in D&D. I'm not sure about 4th edition (never played it), but all the way back in 1st edition clerics had so-so melee fighting ability (not as good as a fighter/ranger/paladin, but better than a rogue) and a variety of support spells. Bless, for example, was incredibly powerful if you didn't have a lot of high stats and/or magic. They could turn undead. They did have some heals, but nowhere near enough spell slots to act as a 'heal bot' at normal levels of play, and standing back just spamming heals was generally nowhere near their best course of action.

The 'heal bot' idea comes from players who want to play recklessly and blame someone else if it doesn't work out ("You didn't heal me when I charged those two rooms!"), and from people who have played MMOs or other CPRPGs where there's a healer class that does just spam heals. The "Holy trinity" stuff is foreign to D&D and will make your game worse if you try to use it as a guide to playing; all classes are extreme hybrids by Holy Trinity MMO standards.

[Temperjoke]

I feel that, no matter how good your intentions were at rounding out the party and mitigating the problems caused by the other players' decisions, you've set the expectations now. They feel that they can be reckless because they know you've got their back. In short, you've accidentally become and enabler. The only way to fix this is to stop playing a cleric with your next character, or change how you are playing your cleric. If that means that no one will be able to use this item, then hey, no one will be able to use the item.

See, I had a realization about the card readings in CoS: they're just there to make the final battle easier for you. They're not really required, otherwise the items would be able to be utilized by any class, since the game designers have no way to know what classes might be chosen.

[Mercurias]

I recommend just going ahead and changing class to whatever you want to play. Perhaps play your character a touch more recklessly and try to go out in a blaze of glory (but don't Leroy Jenkins it). Once nature takes it's course, play a different class.

Eventually someone else will probably play the cleric. And if not, you guys will just have a few more tombstones to put up at the end of the game.

This. If you've directly informed your table that your next character won't be a Cleric or Pally, because you've done enough of it and feel like a change, then they don't have the right to criticize you.

So long as you're completely clear, this shouldn't come as a surprise to them. They all have exactly the same choices you do. Your table could literally make a Multi-Pantheon Cleric/Paladin God Squad (which I want to play as a one-shot now) if the players feel like it.

Remember, you're a player too. If you aren't having fun then what's the point?

[hwem]

I agree with the majority here. What's the point of playing if you're not having fun. Whether you are a power gamer or a RPer, it doesn't matter. All it matters in the end is if you're having fun. Sure, you can sacrifice some fun for the group but why play at all if you group is unwilling to do the same for you?

I'd honestly say this outright to the group and be very straightforward. The group can also be willing to multiclass and such so they are tankier. If they aren't even willing to say...go fighter1/wizard x, I honestly wouldn't want to play with them, period. I hope this all gets resolved and you get wha you deserve: fun.

[MeeposFire]

Clerics have traditionally not been heal bots in D&D. I'm not sure about 4th edition (never played it), but all the way back in 1st edition clerics had so-so melee fighting ability (not as good as a fighter/ranger/paladin, but better than a rogue) and a variety of support spells. Bless, for example, was incredibly powerful if you didn't have a lot of high stats and/or magic. They could turn undead. They did have some heals, but nowhere near enough spell slots to act as a 'heal bot' at normal levels of play, and standing back just spamming heals was generally nowhere near their best course of action.

The 'heal bot' idea comes from players who want to play recklessly and blame someone else if it doesn't work out ("You didn't heal me when I charged those two rooms!"), and from people who have played MMOs or other CPRPGs where there's a healer class that does just spam heals. The "Holy trinity" stuff is foreign to D&D and will make your game worse if you try to use it as a guide to playing; all classes are extreme hybrids by Holy Trinity MMO standards.

Well I suppose if you look at it from a MMO stand point D&D clerics have never been healing quite like they do in those computer games, however the cleric has been the traditional healing class since it first arrived in D&D it is as far as I can tell the progenitor of the role (unless there is some other game that came out before the D&D cleric and had a major influence on a healing type roll I feel fairly confident in that claim). I would also agree that clerics are better off not spending all of their turns healing and that they have traditionally been a class with a lot of potency outside of healing. It is also true that it has a reputation of being the heal bot and seems to be often pressured into that role even if healing is not always the best course of action. You can easily find stories of groups getting mad because their cleric player does not "do it right" by healing them all the time. They get mad when the cleric uses his other potent capabilities. Fair or not this has been a common thing in the past and into the present where even now where the cleric class itself is among its least needed from a party composition stand point people still think they need to have a cleric and that the cleric is specifically needed to continually heal people.

So you are correct but I do think the way you put it just dismisses the idea that there is a problem which I do think is fairly common and real.

As for 4e the cleric was the best healer of all the leader classes however it did not heal all the time and when it did heal it mostly did so without removing its ability to attack (either by use of the minor action, the bonus action analogue in 4e, or by using attack powers that allowed for healing while making an attack). Clerics in 4e were a lot of fun since you could be the healer and get to make all the attacks you ever wanted at the same time (though personally I preferred the bard, artificer, and warlord to the cleric myself for leader classes when I play but that was due to what neat things they brought to the table rather than just straight effectiveness as they were all good). You can find 4e cleric influences in 5e in things like the healing word spell which is a bonus action ranged heal much like the healing word power from 4e.

[OverLordOcelot]

Well I suppose if you look at it from a MMO stand point D&D clerics have never been healing quite like they do in those computer games, however the cleric has been the traditional healing class since it first arrived in D&D it is as far as I can tell the progenitor of the role (unless there is some other game that came out before the D&D cleric and had a major influence on a healing type roll I feel fairly confident in that claim).

1e D&D didn't have a 'healer role' in the sense that MMOs do, it had some classes that could throw occasional heals. The cleric was good at healing, but the druid was similar and ranger and paladin also had healing capability. No one had the capability to heal continuously, all healing was sporadic and limited during the adventuring day. This was especially true since in 1e you had to memorize each spell by slot, you didn't have 3e's spontaneous cure wounds or 5e's prepared spells - if you wanted to be able to remove bad effects, you had to memorize the appropriate spell instead of a 'cure X wounds'.


So you are correct but I do think the way you put it just dismisses the idea that there is a problem which I do think is fairly common and real.

Pointing out where people are wrong is pointing out that they're wrong, it's not dismissing the idea that they're wrong.

[Willie the Duck]

To those saying I have meta knowledge of the module:
<explanation>

I think if you are worried that we think you are 'cheating,' well, thanks for the clarification, but that's really not the primary message.


“So why’d you go Cleric?” Because nobody else was Wisdom focused.

As we've already said, that's not a good reason not to play what you want. And again, we can offer no advice other than to talk to your group, come to a consensus, and everyone adjust their playstyle to whatever you've all agreed to do to address the situation.

Communication is key, and you might find out that, for example, people aren't memorizing Rope Trick and Leodmund's Tiny Hut because they consider them cheap/cheezy/'cheating,' and 'real gamers set watches, not hide under quasi-invincible domes.' In which case, you have a difference in playstyle, one that can be addressed through dialogue and agreement.



Clerics have traditionally not been heal bots in D&D.
...
The 'heal bot' idea comes from players who want to play recklessly and blame someone else if it doesn't work out ("You didn't heal me when I charged those two rooms!"), and from people who have played MMOs or other CPRPGs where there's a healer class that does just spam heals.

I think the heal bot idea also came from the fact that pre-4e, natural healing was simply not sufficient to keep up with the demand of increasing character hp (or, in the case of BECMI, was non-existent). Regardless of whether players were reckless or not, their in-between adventure healing was probably greatly aided by having a cleric able to turn a day or two's spell memorizations into cures and spread them out between everyone (and if the cleric went down, it was a long slow climb back to full health for everyone).

[unusualsuspect]

Let's see if we can sum this up:

OP is playing CoS.

OP has metaknowledge about powerful artifacts in the module that can make the module easier.

OP uses his metaknowledge and creates a character that can use an otherwise restricted powerful artifact.

OP doesn't enjoy playing that character.

OP wants to play a character more like his fellow party members, i.e. RIP & TEAR.

OP subtly checked his fellow party members' preferences for backup characters, hinting that the group could use a character like the one OP doesn't enjoy playing.

Fellow party members' backup characters demonstrate that fellow party members aren't interested in playing a character like the one OP doesn't enjoy playing.

OP becomes frustrated that fellow party members won't play a character that OP doesn't want to play (preventing OP from playing a character more like the ones that fellow party members enjoy playing, i.e. RIP & TEAR).

TL;DR:
OP is mad that other players won't play what OP doesn't like playing so OP can play what OP and other players like playing.

...Not a lot of sympathy from me, bud.

If it's power and success you seek, play what you know will be powerful (cleric/paladin) if/when you get that artifact.

If it's enjoyment while playing you seek, play what you'll enjoy playing.

Leave other players' decisions on what they'll enjoy playing to other players. That's not your decision to make.

[Demonslayer666]

What if everyone is playing smart, and you still need healing to survive the encounter? Isn't a healer needed then?

Nobody wants to play a cleric because they expect to do nothing but heal the party. That's not clerics only function. Healing should be done after the fight, and only used in combat when the situation gets dire. It sounds like the DM has set the difficulty too high if every combat you must spend lots of spell slots on healing.

In previous editions, you needed to stay as far away from negative HP as possible to avoid death, making constant healing necessary. That's no longer the case in 5th edition, because you just go to zero and don't go negative. And most important: 1 hp of healing brings you back up. Let your companions fall, then do a little heal to bring them back up, like using Healing Word as a bonus action.

[OverLordOcelot]

I think the heal bot idea also came from the fact that pre-4e, natural healing was simply not sufficient to keep up with the demand of increasing character hp (or, in the case of BECMI, was non-existent). Regardless of whether players were reckless or not, their in-between adventure healing was probably greatly aided by having a cleric able to turn a day or two's spell memorizations into cures and spread them out between everyone (and if the cleric went down, it was a long slow climb back to full health for everyone).

I think of 'heal bot' as 'person who spends their time in combat throwing heals to keep everyone else up, like a robot dedicated to healing'. I've never heard it used to refer to offscreen healing in the style of 'now that we're in town, I'll use all of my healing slots so that we get back to full health in three days instead of a month' or 3e's 'use a wand of cure light wounds repeatedly between combats'.

[Trustypeaches]

I'm confused how you think any other class is going to have an easier time "utterly and wholly wrecking" enemies than a cleric in Curse of Strahd. Clerics have very strong damage output, especially against the enemies in this campaign.

[jaappleton]

I'm confused how you think any other class is going to have an easier time "utterly and wholly wrecking" enemies than a cleric in Curse of Strahd. Clerics have very strong damage output, especially against the enemies in this campaign.

Maybe this is part of the issue... I didn't mention this part before.

There's been no sense of progression. We've had 6 sessions at lv3. Six sessions. We've gotten stuff done. We recovered St Andral's bones, for example. But we've yet to gain a single level since we finished Death House, which brought us to 3.

If I got to 3rd level spells, obviously I'd have new toys at my disposal, as would the rest of the party.

So far we've only gotten the snot kicked out of us, IMO mostly due to some poor tactics, and as a result have steadily burned through our resources (And we continue to burn through those resources).

The sandbox-y nature of the adventure's design means we can wander into... whatever sort of area. And trust me, we aren't banging on Strahd's front door right now. We're currently en route to the Wizard of Wines at the request of the Innkeeper, so I don't think we're skipped ahead or anything.

[Trustypeaches]

Maybe this is part of the issue... I didn't mention this part before.

There's been no sense of progression. We've had 6 sessions at lv3. Six sessions. We've gotten stuff done. We recovered St Andral's bones, for example. But we've yet to gain a single level since we finished Death House, which brought us to 3.

If I got to 3rd level spells, obviously I'd have new toys at my disposal, as would the rest of the party.

So far we've only gotten the snot kicked out of us, IMO mostly due to some poor tactics, and as a result have steadily burned through our resources (And we continue to burn through those resources).

The sandbox-y nature of the adventure's design means we can wander into... whatever sort of area. And trust me, we aren't banging on Strahd's front door right now. We're currently en route to the Wizard of Wines at the request of the Innkeeper, so I don't think we're skipped ahead or anything.That you haven't leveled up after all of that is kinda wild tbh.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I think I'm getting where you're coming from. If I don't play a high utility driving force in my games, they tend to fall apart. Which is a bit annoying, because I actually prefer playing a tactical forecaster over the leader. I'm just playing with a bunch of idiots.

If you're allowed to rebuild, try making a few permutations of cleric that focus on different things. Think about them, maybe do some playtesting with someone to feel them out. Clerics have a pretty wide variety of possible builds, most of which aren't actually that great at playing walking first aid kit. And it's total crap to force that on another player.

If the party wants to stay alive so bad, they should buy more healing potions.

[MeeposFire]

1e D&D didn't have a 'healer role' in the sense that MMOs do, it had some classes that could throw occasional heals. The cleric was good at healing, but the druid was similar and ranger and paladin also had healing capability. No one had the capability to heal continuously, all healing was sporadic and limited during the adventuring day. This was especially true since in 1e you had to memorize each spell by slot, you didn't have 3e's spontaneous cure wounds or 5e's prepared spells - if you wanted to be able to remove bad effects, you had to memorize the appropriate spell instead of a 'cure X wounds'.



Pointing out where people are wrong is pointing out that they're wrong, it's not dismissing the idea that they're wrong.

The point is that you do not have to have the role be exactly like an MMO to feel like the cleric is supposed to be a heal bot. It is also the case that D&D does not do damage like MMOs but it does not mean we do not have classes that really push things like damage.

1e clerics (or rather ANY class from any edition of D&D for that matter) do not work like MMO healers that is a given. They are still seen as heal bots to numerous people and in D&D this manifests itself as people thinking you have to have a cleric (or similar) in the party and that they must heal people regularly (some groups even feel the cleric must do it in combat where other groups are fine with only after combat).

How many 1e groups have you been in where they did not have a cleric or did not feel like they needed a cleric because they needed a healer? Have you every done the natural healing rules from back in the day? D&D and AD&D1e are where the idea you needed to have a healer in the party comes from. MMOs took that later and ran with it (though remember by that point the concept had been used in more standard RPG video games for years) and yes they heal more often but that is not really the problem here. The problem is that the poster feels compelled to play one because the group (or maybe just he) thinks it needs a healer class and in addition needs to be able to use an amulet only for divine characters. This in turn makes him feel he needs to play a cleric.


You do not have to mechanically play like a healer type in a MMO in order to be called a heal bot. That idea has existed since the start of the game and yes the mechanics are different on a game like D&D than it is on a MMO but in relative terms to each of their own games the D&D cleric is seen by many as the heal bot of the game (even if in 5e you actually do not need to have one and honestly there are better uses of your spell slots but hey even back in 1e you could not convince many people that the cleric had better things to do than heal all the time).

[OverLordOcelot]

The point is that you do not have to have the role be exactly like an MMO to feel like the cleric is supposed to be a heal bot. It is also the case that D&D does not do damage like MMOs but it does not mean we do not have classes that really push things like damage.

You seem to be arguing vehemetly with something someone else claimed, and not with the comments of mine that you're quoting; I didn't make the claim that you're disagreeing with in the first sentence. I also didn't claim that D&D does not have classes that really push things like damage, in fact all classes have ways to push damage, in stark contrast with traditional MMO trinity setups where only certain classes do significant damage.


How many 1e groups have you been in where they did not have a cleric or did not feel like they needed a cleric because they needed a healer? Have you every done the natural healing rules from back in the day?

The majority of my 1e groups, actually. Natural healing between adventures just meant you said that more time passed between adventures or bought spellcasting from an NPC cleric. Not that it's especially relevant here, and I don't think my experience was typical, but you did ask.


You do not have to mechanically play like a healer type in a MMO in order to be called a heal bot.

I have only heard the term heal bot in the post-WOW era, never back when I was playing 1e. 'Bot' as a general slang term didn't get into regular use until the late 90s or early 2000s AFAIK, though I'm not an expert on word usage.

[Man_Over_Game]

That you haven't leveled up after all of that is kinda wild tbh.

If you follow the rough system of "Next level = Current level in Sessions", it'd take about 6 sessions to hit level 4. They should be leveling up very soon. Maybe the DM is trying to draw it out, to make things harder.

[Laserlight]

It sounds like your real problem isn't "playing a cleric", it's "carrying a group of tactically inept PCs". Changing classes won't help you with that.

As for the Holy Thingy, I was a cleric and refused to carry it. I pointed out to my DM that making a Holy Symbol of X available only to those people who are already fully committed to God Y (as a cleric and paladin are) is an asinine decision by the module writer. It's akin to saying "During the jousting tournament, the only knights eligible to carry Lady Ygraine's favor are those who are married to someone else and carrying their own lady's favor". We ended up handing it to an NPC we recruited.

[Sigreid]

It sounds like your real problem isn't "playing a cleric", it's "carrying a group of tactically inept PCs". Changing classes won't help you with that.

As for the Holy Thingy, I was a cleric and refused to carry it. I pointed out to my DM that making a Holy Symbol of X available only to those people who are already fully committed to God Y (as a cleric and paladin are) is an asinine decision by the module writer. It's akin to saying "During the jousting tournament, the only knights eligible to carry Lady Ygraine's favor are those who are married to someone else and carrying their own lady's favor". We ended up handing it to an NPC we recruited.

I took liberties with the holy symbol. When our priest of Ra attuned it, the center reshaped itself into an eye of Ra.

[MaxWilson]

It sounds like your real problem isn't "playing a cleric", it's "carrying a group of tactically inept PCs". Changing classes won't help you with that.

It could. Defense scales better in 5E than offense but requires better cooperation, since an enemy can just attack the weakest link. Just like when protecting hapless NPCs, the best move with a tactically inept party might be to embrace novas and crowd control to kill the enemy before other PCs can make too many mistakes. Choosing when to spend your nova would be vital, and stop would having a backup, non-nova cheap option.

Might be with considering a paladin with Defense and sword/shield Prodigy (Athletics) for grapple/prone. Tank top keep other PCs alive, and Wrathful Smite/Divine Smite/Compelled Duel/Sanctuary when necessary, while still keeping the ability to use that holy symbol of you want.

Or take GWM instead of Prodigy and smash things. Or take both and switch between sword/shield and greatsword as appropriate.

[Fryy]

Playing CoS. If you've played CoS, you KNOW how important it is to be a Cleric (or Paladin). There's something there that requires it.

We've had 3 character deaths so far.

I'm the Cleric. And honestly I'm getting a bit tired of keeping everyone alive.

As an experienced player, I know factually that if I were another class, I could... what's the technical term... utterly and devastatingly wreck enemies. However, as I said, someone needs to be a Cleric.

We've all talked about backup characters, as CoS has a high mortality rate. And they've made Rogues, Wizards, etc...

Still no Cleric, or even Paladin...

I want to change classes because then I could kill enemies quite quickly based on numerous builds I have. But... then nobody will be the Cleric or Paladin, which means that particular thing you NEED to be one for can't happen.

Its so damn frustrating to be relegated to this role, I figured I was being a team player by being a Cleric. And don't get me wrong, I LIKE Clerics. I think they're well designed. But I've been a Cleric so often that its... Ugh. Its like liking pizza, and eating it every single day for months. You just don't want any more pizza, y'know?

Its not even the healing that's gotten me frustrated. Its the decision making of the party that's killing me.

I've expressed and performed tactics which have greatly turned battles in our favor, so help our success. But for some reason people think that means they don't need to do anything smart on their own. Sure, fine, let's all just camp out in the middle of a field and risk an ambush, that's FINE. No, nobody take Mold Earth so we can dig ourselves a massive den and hide. Nobody take Rope Trick or Leomund's Tiny Hut or ANYTHING to give us a safe place for a respite. Nope...

-sigh-

From your examples above, it sounds like others in the group don't want to play as tactically or cautiously as you do. Maybe they are less experienced or they just like to play less tactically or cautiously than you.

Maybe they even dont mind that there have been 3 character deaths. I dunno.

Ultimately its up to the DM to balance the challenge to match the preferred playstyle.

So maybe it will take a future TPK to sort it out. In the meantime, rather than feeling frustrated...just enjoy your ride on the Titanic.

[furby076]

Be a paladin. You wreck house, and heal sometimes

[sithlordnergal]

I'd change out your class. I've done it before with my group in Out of the Abyss. I was playing a Half Orc Cleric with a 16 Wisdom at level 7...and while his personality was great, his spells sucked due to his low DC. So I brought a new character in. The new one was far more enjoyable, and while I lost healing potential I was still able to help the group as a whole.

[Arkhios]

-snip-

Look at the date of the last post (the one before yours).


Now, look at the forum rules regarding old threads.

TL;DR: it's forbidden by Forum Rules to reply to threads that are 45 or more days old.

Nevermind that. I need more coffee x___X

[Contrast]

Look at the date of the last post (the one before yours).


Now, look at the forum rules regarding old threads.

TL;DR: it's forbidden by Forum Rules to reply to threads that are 45 or more days old.

This entire thread was first posted Tuesday this week. What are you talking about? :smallconfused:

[JoeJ]

Look at the date of the last post (the one before yours).


Now, look at the forum rules regarding old threads.

TL;DR: it's forbidden by Forum Rules to reply to threads that are 45 or more days old.

WTH? The very first post in this thread was 2019-03-05. By my count, that's 3 days, not 45.

[Arkhios]

This entire thread was first posted Tuesday this week. What are you talking about? :smallconfused:


WTH? The very first post in this thread was 2019-03-05. By my count, that's 3 days, not 45.

Oops! Ignore everything I said. It seems I need more coffee today x__X

For some reason I read the year was 2018... and here up north we place the date in reverse order (day first, month after)

Sorry!


In that case, I might as well give my own thoughts about it.

It's somewhat "traditional" to think that if you chose to play a cleric, colloquially it's seen as your consent to be the dedicated healer for the group. Whether it is your intention or not.

Personally, I vehemently dislike this way of thinking (almost as much as I dislike referring to paladins as lawful stupid moral judges, but that's another topic).

It's your character. You have every right to play it however you wish. It doesn't matter how good friends you are with the other players. If you want to play a cleric that never prepares cure spells, then do it. If the others can't live with your decisions, they have every right to become the healers themselves. If they refuse, well... life's a bitch and then you die. :smallamused:

As for the requirement of having a cleric in your group... if the campaign specifically expects that someone is playing a cleric or paladin, I'd say it's the DM's job to strongly recommend a cleric or paladin for someone in the group before the characters/classes are chosen/made. If the players still refuse to play one, either because of the general stigma of clerics/paladins, or because they have other ideas for their character's, it's obviously each and everyone's prerogative. It might not lead to ideal results, but not every story has a happy ending (ask G.R.R. Martin! :smallcool:)

[Imbalance]

Maybe this is part of the issue... I didn't mention this part before.

There's been no sense of progression. We've had 6 sessions at lv3. Six sessions. We've gotten stuff done. We recovered St Andral's bones, for example. But we've yet to gain a single level since we finished Death House, which brought us to 3.

If I got to 3rd level spells, obviously I'd have new toys at my disposal, as would the rest of the party.

So far we've only gotten the snot kicked out of us, IMO mostly due to some poor tactics, and as a result have steadily burned through our resources (And we continue to burn through those resources).

The sandbox-y nature of the adventure's design means we can wander into... whatever sort of area. And trust me, we aren't banging on Strahd's front door right now. We're currently en route to the Wizard of Wines at the request of the Innkeeper, so I don't think we're skipped ahead or anything.

If I may amend my previous advice, have your cleric pray loudly and vehemently for more XP.

[stoutstien]

Oops! Ignore everything I said. It seems I need more coffee today x__X

For some reason I read the year was 2018... and here up north we place the date in reverse order (day first, month after)







D/M/Y is the one true format🙂

[zinycor]

Maybe this is part of the issue... I didn't mention this part before.

There's been no sense of progression. We've had 6 sessions at lv3. Six sessions. We've gotten stuff done. We recovered St Andral's bones, for example. But we've yet to gain a single level since we finished Death House, which brought us to 3.

If I got to 3rd level spells, obviously I'd have new toys at my disposal, as would the rest of the party.

So far we've only gotten the snot kicked out of us, IMO mostly due to some poor tactics, and as a result have steadily burned through our resources (And we continue to burn through those resources).

The sandbox-y nature of the adventure's design means we can wander into... whatever sort of area. And trust me, we aren't banging on Strahd's front door right now. We're currently en route to the Wizard of Wines at the request of the Innkeeper, so I don't think we're skipped ahead or anything.

...

Dude, with that rate of experience gained, no class would ever help you.

[Yunru]

Technically you only need one level in either Cleric or Paladin, right?

Of course, that won't really help if your DM keeps you stuck as 3rd level characters.

[GreyBlack]

Maybe this is part of the issue... I didn't mention this part before.

There's been no sense of progression. We've had 6 sessions at lv3. Six sessions. We've gotten stuff done. We recovered St Andral's bones, for example. But we've yet to gain a single level since we finished Death House, which brought us to 3.

If I got to 3rd level spells, obviously I'd have new toys at my disposal, as would the rest of the party.

So far we've only gotten the snot kicked out of us, IMO mostly due to some poor tactics, and as a result have steadily burned through our resources (And we continue to burn through those resources).

The sandbox-y nature of the adventure's design means we can wander into... whatever sort of area. And trust me, we aren't banging on Strahd's front door right now. We're currently en route to the Wizard of Wines at the request of the Innkeeper, so I don't think we're skipped ahead or anything.

Well THERE'S your problem. You've gone through, what, Vallaki and the village of Barovia without getting even one level? And I'm assuming that you've met the Vistani camp, so you've made quite a bit of progress. By my estimates, you'd probably be around 4-5 by now (probably closer to 4). Have you guys has random encounters? Have you been tracking XP correctly? Or is level up based on DM fiat?

[jaappleton]

Well THERE'S your problem. You've gone through, what, Vallaki and the village of Barovia without getting even one level? And I'm assuming that you've met the Vistani camp, so you've made quite a bit of progress. By my estimates, you'd probably be around 4-5 by now (probably closer to 4). Have you guys has random encounters? Have you been tracking XP correctly? Or is level up based on DM fiat?

DM says he's going by 'milestone' leveling. So basically whenever.

We're actually at ...

a certain Tower with a cart parked in front of it, and while exploring the tower (And losing the Ranger... Someone didn't properly search the aforementioned cart), we've discovered there's a lot of wolves heading for us. Large ones.

And so I enacted a plan, and the party has actually followed the plan.

We're at the tower. Most of the party is ranged, and are on top of the tower firing away. The only one who has no ranged option to speak of it the Monk, but he managed to activate a Suit of Animated Armor. And that's on the ground floor, along with myself, at the front door. I open the door and (I'm a Tempest Cleric, FWIW) have been Thunderwaving enemies away from the tower, pushing them back so they get into view of my allies up top and pick them off. It's actually been going pretty great....

Until we see a female rider in the distance riding toward the tower. We don't know who she is, but we know accompanying her is the Ranger's replacement.

[zinycor]

DM says he's going by 'milestone' leveling. So basically whenever.

We're actually at ...

a certain Tower with a cart parked in front of it, and while exploring the tower (And losing the Ranger... Someone didn't properly search the aforementioned cart), we've discovered there's a lot of wolves heading for us. Large ones.

And so I enacted a plan, and the party has actually followed the plan.

We're at the tower. Most of the party is ranged, and are on top of the tower firing away. The only one who has no ranged option to speak of it the Monk, but he managed to activate a Suit of Animated Armor. And that's on the ground floor, along with myself, at the front door. I open the door and (I'm a Tempest Cleric, FWIW) have been Thunderwaving enemies away from the tower, pushing them back so they get into view of my allies up top and pick them off. It's actually been going pretty great....

Until we see a female rider in the distance riding toward the tower. We don't know who she is, but we know accompanying her is the Ranger's replacement.

well, your Gm is screwing you over then, at the very least you should be level 4 by now.

[Citan]

Playing CoS. If you've played CoS, you KNOW how important it is to be a Cleric (or Paladin). There's something there that requires it.

We've had 3 character deaths so far.

I'm the Cleric. And honestly I'm getting a bit tired of keeping everyone alive.

As an experienced player, I know factually that if I were another class, I could... what's the technical term... utterly and devastatingly wreck enemies. However, as I said, someone needs to be a Cleric.

We've all talked about backup characters, as CoS has a high mortality rate. And they've made Rogues, Wizards, etc...

Still no Cleric, or even Paladin...

I want to change classes because then I could kill enemies quite quickly based on numerous builds I have. But... then nobody will be the Cleric or Paladin, which means that particular thing you NEED to be one for can't happen.

Its so damn frustrating to be relegated to this role, I figured I was being a team player by being a Cleric. And don't get me wrong, I LIKE Clerics. I think they're well designed. But I've been a Cleric so often that its... Ugh. Its like liking pizza, and eating it every single day for months. You just don't want any more pizza, y'know?

Its not even the healing that's gotten me frustrated. Its the decision making of the party that's killing me.

I've expressed and performed tactics which have greatly turned battles in our favor, so help our success. But for some reason people think that means they don't need to do anything smart on their own. Sure, fine, let's all just camp out in the middle of a field and risk an ambush, that's FINE. No, nobody take Mold Earth so we can dig ourselves a massive den and hide. Nobody take Rope Trick or Leomund's Tiny Hut or ANYTHING to give us a safe place for a respite. Nope...

-sigh-
What is SO important that YOU need to be a Cleric? Does that campaign feature something that would mean an insta-wipe or auto-fail at the end if no Cleric?

Because the way I see it, a few more sessions like this, and you will yourself be so bored you'll actually leave the table. Which is not something remotely important of course, except for the part that the party has one pal less and especially one Cleric less.

--> You're fed up being a Cleric? Stop playing a Cleric. As simple as that. Give it your best with current character, telling others beforehand that's the damnest last time you play one with them because you're fed up babysitting (you can keep that part inside of you ^^), and if/when it dies pick someone else.
If, in anyways, you think even with you as a Cleric the party will ultimately fail because general lack of intelligence, then you might as well pick up the offense to try and save them another way. ^^

Party win or fail is a responsability of all party. You've shouldered a role for a long time, it's natural that someone picks it when it has become too heavy of a burden for you. :=)

[GreyBlack]

DM says he's going by 'milestone' leveling. So basically whenever.

We're actually at ...

a certain Tower with a cart parked in front of it, and while exploring the tower (And losing the Ranger... Someone didn't properly search the aforementioned cart), we've discovered there's a lot of wolves heading for us. Large ones.

And so I enacted a plan, and the party has actually followed the plan.

We're at the tower. Most of the party is ranged, and are on top of the tower firing away. The only one who has no ranged option to speak of it the Monk, but he managed to activate a Suit of Animated Armor. And that's on the ground floor, along with myself, at the front door. I open the door and (I'm a Tempest Cleric, FWIW) have been Thunderwaving enemies away from the tower, pushing them back so they get into view of my allies up top and pick them off. It's actually been going pretty great....

Until we see a female rider in the distance riding toward the tower. We don't know who she is, but we know accompanying her is the Ranger's replacement.

Yeahhhhh.... I might ask the DM how many milestones you've achieved. By my count, you should probably be about 5-6 milestones beyond 3, because you've:

- Helped Ismark get Ireena to safety
- Gone through the church undercroft
- Replaced the Bones of St. Andral
- Met the Vistani camp and received your fortune.
- Been through the Winery


Under milestone rules, you should probably have about 5 milestones past level 3 based solely on what you've been telling us.

I would ask your DM how many milestones you guys should have and how many milestones are needed for a level; this could be the root of the problem that you guys are engaging super-deadly encounters and not being appropriately leveled.

[jaappleton]

What is SO important that YOU need to be a Cleric? Does that campaign feature something that would mean an insta-wipe or auto-fail at the end if no Cleric?

Because the way I see it, a few more sessions like this, and you will yourself be so bored you'll actually leave the table. Which is not something remotely important of course, except for the part that the party has one pal less and especially one Cleric less.

--> You're fed up being a Cleric? Stop playing a Cleric. As simple as that. Give it your best with current character, telling others beforehand that's the damnest last time you play one with them because you're fed up babysitting (you can keep that part inside of you ^^), and if/when it dies pick someone else.
If, in anyways, you think even with you as a Cleric the party will ultimately fail because general lack of intelligence, then you might as well pick up the offense to try and save them another way. ^^

Party win or fail is a responsability of all party. You've shouldered a role for a long time, it's natural that someone picks it when it has become too heavy of a burden for you. :=)

I don't have it right in front of me, but I know it can...

Generate sunlight and paralyze vampires.

So in something like CoS, you can see how it's quite tempting.

[Citan]

Or you could just...


]Technically you only need one level in either Cleric or Paladin, righ[/B]t?

Of course, that won't really help if your DM keeps you stuck as 3rd level characters.
Do that.



Let's see if we can sum this up:

OP is playing CoS.

OP has metaknowledge about powerful artifacts in the module that can make the module easier.

OP uses his metaknowledge and creates a character that can use an otherwise restricted powerful artifact.

OP doesn't enjoy playing that character.

OP wants to play a character more like his fellow party members, i.e. RIP & TEAR.

OP subtly checked his fellow party members' preferences for backup characters, hinting that the group could use a character like the one OP doesn't enjoy playing.

Fellow party members' backup characters demonstrate that fellow party members aren't interested in playing a character like the one OP doesn't enjoy playing.

OP becomes frustrated that fellow party members won't play a character that OP doesn't want to play (preventing OP from playing a character more like the ones that fellow party members enjoy playing, i.e. RIP & TEAR).

TL;DR:
OP is mad that other players won't play what OP doesn't like playing so OP can play what OP and other players like playing.

...Not a lot of sympathy from me, bud.

If it's power and success you seek, play what you know will be powerful (cleric/paladin) if/when you get that artifact.

If it's enjoyment while playing you seek, play what you'll enjoy playing.

Leave other players' decisions on what they'll enjoy playing to other players. That's not your decision to make.
Let's see if we can sum this up.

unusualsuspect read OP in diagonal.

unusualsuspect didn't bother reading rest of thread.

unusualsuspect jumped to making an opinion on OP's mentality with that little information he had instead of asking more.

Tl;DR
unusualsuspect's post is useless prejudgement

:smalltongue:

It sounds like your real problem isn't "playing a cleric", it's "carrying a group of tactically inept PCs". Changing classes won't help you with that.

Tis is a harsh assessment, but more or less accurate too. :smallbiggrin:

I don't have it right in front of me, but I know it can...

Generate sunlight and paralyze vampires.

So in something like CoS, you can see how it's quite tempting.
I... Guess?
I have very little knowledge of campaign as you have understood, and I don't have those creature's stats in mind right now...
But are they so particular that classic spells won't work (Blindness, Hold Person, obscuration spells, etc) ?

Couldn't you hire an NPC Cleric worst case?

[GreyBlack]

I... Guess?
I have very little knowledge of campaign as you have understood, and I don't have those creature's stats in mind right now...
But are they so particular that classic spells won't work (Blindness, Hold Person, obscuration spells, etc) ?

Couldn't you hire an NPC Cleric worst case?

"We are the mightiest heroes in the land and have found a powerful artifact. Hey, you. Want some gold? Awesome, just hold this for us."

(Sarcasm because it don't generally do blue text)

[ZorroGames]

Snippage

It's somewhat "traditional" to think that if you chose to play a cleric, colloquially it's seen as your consent to be the dedicated healer for the group. Whether it is your intention or not.

Personally, I vehemently dislike this way of thinking (almost as much as I dislike referring to paladins as lawful stupid moral judges, but that's another topic).

It's your character. You have every right to play it however you wish. It doesn't matter how good friends you are with the other players. If you want to play a cleric that never prepares cure spells, then do it. If the others can't live with your decisions, they have every right to become the healers themselves. If they refuse, well... life's a bitch and then you die. :smallamused:

As for the requirement of having a cleric in your group... if the campaign specifically expects that someone is playing a cleric or paladin, I'd say it's the DM's job to strongly recommend a cleric or paladin for someone in the group before the characters/classes are chosen/made. If the players still refuse to play one, either because of the general stigma of clerics/paladins, or because they have other ideas for their character's, it's obviously each and everyone's prerogative. It might not lead to ideal results, but not every story has a happy ending (ask G.R.R. Martin! :smallcool:)

I started in the 0D&D era (1973 while in USAF) and I made it clear even then that while I could heal I viewed my Cleric characters more as a Pararescue (legally NOT a medic under Geneva Accords due to combat role and weapons) than a EMT/Paramedic. Defeat the enemy first. No reason you have to be a healbot.

Today my characters who can heal often have one healing word or one Out of Combat healing spell until Tier 2 and often then it may not increase. I often push for short rests so people can use HD as appropriate. PCs need to use all their tools tactically.

[Spore]

You do not need a cleric. Yes, a few goodies of the adventure path are wasted, and you have no "end this encounter instantly" cards at your disposal. Spoilering Death House as an example since you are probably out of its range already.

I dmed a game on these forums with a Light Cleric. The cellar is full of zombies, ghasts and even a quite deadly encounter with shadows, and you can lay the spirits of the two children murdered in the attic to rest. (I assume you can kill them too, but ghosts just reappear).

The players however:
1) Decided to play smart and scout out and avoid patrolling zombies.
2) Where respectful enough to lay the children to rest.
3) Did not desecrate the shrine to spawn the shadows - even though the cleric could have basically oneshot that encounter with his Radiance of the Dawn

But honestly not having a cleric to bail you out of any dangerous situation or remove an potentially dangerous debuff or diseases (think curses, lycanthropy, and the like) imho makes the AP that much more engaging. It is still a published AP, so it can be stomped by an optimized group. So maybe removing reliable recovery from that equation makes the game MORE engaging.

[jaappleton]

An Update

Last night, we had our first session since I made the topic.

While nobody is willing to have their next character be any sort of healer, after reading the comments here, I decide to embrace things a bit. I might not know what my next character is going to be, though I have to make one soon (more on that in a moment). Just because its not the most 'optimal' or 'balanced' party doesn't mean it'll be less fun. Heck, my very first 5E group was a Str-based Fighter, Str-based Paladin and my Barbarian, and that was a ton of fun. Not a lick of AoE between us, but we had fun. :smallbiggrin:

You're right. I could've tried to go for this optimal, well rounded party, but... Playing what you want is the best way to have fun, and that's the most important aspect. I need to remind myself of that occasionally. Of course we want to succeed in the adventure, but... Isn't failing spectacularly often more fun than succeeding poorly? Does that make sense? Perhaps poorly worded but I think you know what I mean.

Circling back to why I need a new character soon; I was bitten by a Werewolf and failed my save. While we successfully killed the Werewolves that assaulted Van Richten's tower, Esmerelda informed me that there's only 6 days until the next full moon. She told us that she had a scroll of Remove Curse in her carriage, I unfortunately blew that up while searching it prior to her arrival.

We did manage to level up to Level 4, thank goodness. Unfortunately Remove Curse is a 3rd level spell, so I have 6 in-game days to level up before I get taken out back behind the woodshed to get Old Yeller'd. :smalltongue:

We've since arrived, finally, at the Wizard of Wines and met up with some feathered allies. We attempt take back the winery next session. The winery workers informed us that the Druids that've taken over the area have something controlling Twig Blights. Fairly certain I know what to do there to make this a... snap. :smallwink:

So now its a race against time, to see if I do or don't need a new PC.

[ZorroGames]

An Update

Last night, we had our first session since I made the topic.

While nobody is willing to have their next character be any sort of healer, after reading the comments here, I decide to embrace things a bit. I might not know what my next character is going to be, though I have to make one soon (more on that in a moment). Just because its not the most 'optimal' or 'balanced' party doesn't mean it'll be less fun. Heck, my very first 5E group was a Str-based Fighter, Str-based Paladin and my Barbarian, and that was a ton of fun. Not a lick of AoE between us, but we had fun. :smallbiggrin:

You're right. I could've tried to go for this optimal, well rounded party, but... Playing what you want is the best way to have fun, and that's the most important aspect. I need to remind myself of that occasionally. Of course we want to succeed in the adventure, but... Isn't failing spectacularly often more fun than succeeding poorly? Snippage

So now its a race against time, to see if I do or don't need a new PC.

Good luck and may the inworld gods be merciful!

[Temperjoke]

An Update


So now its a race against time, to see if I do or don't need a new PC.

Thoughts in spoiler so to not risk ruining things

In fairness, nothing says that they can't try and find some way to contain/restrain you during the full moon? I mean, its dangerous having an uncontrolled werewolf running wild, but if you haven't embraced your curse, the DM may not make you give up your character entirely, just when changed.

[jaappleton]

Thoughts in spoiler so to not risk ruining things

In fairness, nothing says that they can't try and find some way to contain/restrain you during the full moon? I mean, its dangerous having an uncontrolled werewolf running wild, but if you haven't embraced your curse, the DM may not make you give up your character entirely, just when changed.

I’m kinda torn on it, personally. On one hand, I never fear the death of my own PCs. It’s an opportunity for something new. And in this game, there’s always a new character to play, their tale to tell.

So it’s a good reminder that the world of Barovia SUCKS, and that’s certainly keeping in spirit with the adventure.

On the other hand.... As chaotically fun as it might be to fully turn, I also really don’t want to be responsible for.... A terrible thing to possibly happen as a result.

[djreynolds]

Have someone keep casting moonbeam on you.

I have to say that this is great, this is what the game is about,

You are all prepared for A B and C.......... and in comes X Y and Z

It can frustrating if you make a regal knight in shining armor, and the campaign is going to take place in the in the underdark where you are going to be hunted.... but that's the fun of it

[jaappleton]

Have someone keep casting moonbeam on you.

I have to say that this is great, this is what the game is about,

You are all prepared for A B and C.......... and in comes X Y and Z

It can frustrating if you make a regal knight in shining armor, and the campaign is going to take place in the in the underdark where you are going to be hunted.... but that's the fun of it

Nobody has Moonbeam. It's a shame, I wish it were available to more classes, its quite a good spell.

I figured I could continue to resist and get further aggravated, or... Embrace the madness, frankly. And which of those seemed more fun? :smallbiggrin:

[djreynolds]

Nobody has Moonbeam. It's a shame, I wish it were available to more classes, its quite a good spell.

I figured I could continue to resist and get further aggravated, or... Embrace the madness, frankly. And which of those seemed more fun? :smallbiggrin:

Are there any druids left alive? Or did you kill them all?

[GreyBlack]

Thoughts in spoiler so to not risk ruining things

In fairness, nothing says that they can't try and find some way to contain/restrain you during the full moon? I mean, its dangerous having an uncontrolled werewolf running wild, but if you haven't embraced your curse, the DM may not make you give up your character entirely, just when changed.

As an alternative...
Why not embrace the curse and use it to fight Strahd?

[jaappleton]

Are there any druids left alive? Or did you kill them all?

We haven't actually raided the winery yet. We got there, and talked to the owners, and ended the session.

[Max_Killjoy]

I would think that a Celestial Warlock or Divine Soul Sorcerer might be able to use that item, but what do I know, I'm not designing 5e modules for a living. :smallamused:

[Pyramid Pug]

Well, on one of our adventures (in Ravenloft too of all the things tho it’s original stuff, our DM doesn’t like modules), my character got bitten and was turning into a were beastie.

The funny part was that it was a gnome and it was turning into a were-crocodile which conjured up all sorts of hilarious mental imagery. 😂

Anywho, glad yer finding enjoyment in the adventure once again. Sometimes we get lost so much in details and optimizing stuff we forget the most basic aspect, to have fun. Happens to me a lot too (specially in art, which often leads me to an art block).

[beargryllz]

Stop metagaming and stop whining about other players' preferences

If you don't want to play a cleric, don't play a cleric

Problem = solved

[jaappleton]

Stop metagaming and stop whining about other players' preferences

If you don't want to play a cleric, don't play a cleric

Problem = solved

I’ll take “I didn’t read past the first post” for $1000, Alex.