Skill Challenges to keep skills relevant

[Wasum]

Hello everybody!

I have an issue concerning the 3.5/pathfinder skills. I agree with the common sense that skills matter less and less with the level progress of characters (there are some exceptions of course, e.g. perception, acrobatics, some knowledges etc) and I would like to keep them somewhat more relevant if possible.

So my idea is to make up skill challenges which provide certain effects that are usually exclusive to magic users.

An example would be an effect like "remove curse" that can be emulated by a combination of several skill checks:

DC 25+ Survival to find special herbs
DC 30+ Knowledge Arcana OR DC 25+ Craft (Alchemy) to put them together
DC 25+ Heal to treat the cursed creature

It takes long time to perform and the results of those checks somehow define the casterlevel at which the effect is executed. Maybe even more checks should be included. And somehow there should probably be some costs so that this wont be an issue with WBL.


I would like to hear your opinion on this matter and ideas on what effects could be emulated by which combination of skillchecks.

[MeimuHakurei]

Hello everybody!

I have an issue concerning the 3.5/pathfinder skills. I agree with the common sense that skills matter less and less with the level progress of characters (there are some exceptions of course, e.g. perception, acrobatics, some knowledges etc) and I would like to keep them somewhat more relevant if possible.

So my idea is to make up skill challenges which provide certain effects that are usually exclusive to magic users.

An example would be an effect like "remove curse" that can be emulated by a combination of several skill checks:

DC 25+ Survival to find special herbs
DC 30+ Knowledge Arcana OR DC 25+ Craft (Alchemy) to put them together
DC 25+ Heal to treat the cursed creature

It takes long time to perform and the results of those checks somehow define the casterlevel at which the effect is executed. Maybe even more checks should be included. And somehow there should probably be some costs so that this wont be an issue with WBL.


I would like to hear your opinion on this matter and ideas on what effects could be emulated by which combination of skillchecks.

Check out the Skill Challenge Handbook by Everyman Gaming. It's got exactly what you're looking for.

[bean illus]

I like it.

Skill check trees? Maybe certain abilities (healing, illusion? necromancy? communion?) have a skill tree where a combination of max ranks in certain skills unlocks certain 'skill domain'.

Max ranks in healing, and either knowledge nature or craft alchemy the charcter can perform (Ex) ... same effect as spell except as follows. Takes 1 hour per level. Blah, blah, blah.

1. CLW
2. ETC
3. etc

[Segev]

I think keeping skills relevant is less about emulating spells or other effects (though having skill checks that can accomplish what other features can do isn't a bad thing), and more about structuring it so that success on various skill checks can advance plot goals throughout adventures. Think of how combat dominates most gameplay because of how in-depth it is. Tactics matter, because the success/failure of a fight rests in how damage is dealt and to whom, what statuses go off, and what the goals of the fight are. Too often, non-combat things wind up being a list of skill checks and are pass/fail.

Consider, instead, a scene where the goal is to convince the Baron to let the PCs arm some farmers to help back them up in a fight against some kobolds in a mine. The Kingdom forbids arming peasants, but sometimes exceptions can be made. There are a number of ways to try this, and while a straight-up one-shot Diplomacy roll by a Diplomancer could make the Baron absolutely willing to take risks to help out (Helpful), perhaps such extreme social-fu isn't needed. He could be bribed with gold and jewels, particularly art objects. In which case, learning about his art collecting habits and tastes would involve gathering information, and touring his collection when he makes a public showing, and the like. Or maybe it's about seducing him into being willing to do anything for the femme fatale in the party, which involves several scenes of social interaction, including catching his eye, playing hard to get, and finally flirting and asking for the favor. Or perhaps it's about convincing him that, yes, there is this dire need for an exception. Gathering evidence of the kobold threat, proving that the extra bodies are needed, and demonstrating that the PCs are trustworthy enough to be trusted would be a series of activities, some of which involve skill checks.

The skill checks aren't pass/fail on the grand scheme, but on smaller chunks, the way attack rolls are for individual particles of combat. Building up successes builds up resources and tools and knowledge needed to make the right choices and moves.

Showing up with the forbidden painting of the unpersoned king the current king's father usur--er, um, inherited the crown from the father of, which was the last known work of the Mad Painter who was also one of the greatest in the last thousand years, may guarantee cooperation for this "small favor" you're asking of the Baron. No Diplomacy roll needed. But knowing this was something he would crave and not find repulsive, knowing he'd be willing to bend and break rules just to have it, let alone to pay for it...that's a lot of in-game time and an hour or two of out-of-game RP and skill rolls. Roughly akin to a combat in RL time, even if in-game time took much longer than the less-than-a-minute of a 5-7 round combat.

[Wasum]

Check out the Skill Challenge Handbook by Everyman Gaming. It's got exactly what you're looking for.

Thank you, I will!



I think keeping skills relevant is less about emulating spells or other effects (though having skill checks that can accomplish what other features can do isn't a bad thing), and more about structuring it so that success on various skill checks can advance plot goals throughout adventures. Think of how combat dominates most gameplay because of how in-depth it is. Tactics matter, because the success/failure of a fight rests in how damage is dealt and to whom, what statuses go off, and what the goals of the fight are. Too often, non-combat things wind up being a list of skill checks and are pass/fail.

Consider, instead, a scene where the goal is to convince the Baron to let the PCs arm some farmers to help back them up in a fight against some kobolds in a mine. The Kingdom forbids arming peasants, but sometimes exceptions can be made. There are a number of ways to try this, and while a straight-up one-shot Diplomacy roll by a Diplomancer could make the Baron absolutely willing to take risks to help out (Helpful), perhaps such extreme social-fu isn't needed. He could be bribed with gold and jewels, particularly art objects. In which case, learning about his art collecting habits and tastes would involve gathering information, and touring his collection when he makes a public showing, and the like. Or maybe it's about seducing him into being willing to do anything for the femme fatale in the party, which involves several scenes of social interaction, including catching his eye, playing hard to get, and finally flirting and asking for the favor. Or perhaps it's about convincing him that, yes, there is this dire need for an exception. Gathering evidence of the kobold threat, proving that the extra bodies are needed, and demonstrating that the PCs are trustworthy enough to be trusted would be a series of activities, some of which involve skill checks.

The skill checks aren't pass/fail on the grand scheme, but on smaller chunks, the way attack rolls are for individual particles of combat. Building up successes builds up resources and tools and knowledge needed to make the right choices and moves.

Showing up with the forbidden painting of the unpersoned king the current king's father usur--er, um, inherited the crown from the father of, which was the last known work of the Mad Painter who was also one of the greatest in the last thousand years, may guarantee cooperation for this "small favor" you're asking of the Baron. No Diplomacy roll needed. But knowing this was something he would crave and not find repulsive, knowing he'd be willing to bend and break rules just to have it, let alone to pay for it...that's a lot of in-game time and an hour or two of out-of-game RP and skill rolls. Roughly akin to a combat in RL time, even if in-game time took much longer than the less-than-a-minute of a 5-7 round combat.

At certain levels there is no reason to deal with that kind of stuff using skills as here are spells for ist which are faster to execute and more reliable. The problem I'm talking about has nothing to do with game style paradigms but with mechanics that hamper the need for skills drastically the higher spells become available.

[zlefin]

it's a good idea in principle; in practice it's somewhat problematic; because there's some spell-based ways to gain large boosts on skill checks (as well as potentially magic items giving large boosts to specific skills).
the game was generally designed around skill checks not having that strong a scaling effect, so some sources are quite generous in the amount of bonus they provide.
It also makes it tricky given the use of a d20 for skill checks, as it can provide a large spread for whats possible to do vs what might fail, in a way that stretches credulity.

[Segev]

At certain levels there is no reason to deal with that kind of stuff using skills as here are spells for ist which are faster to execute and more reliable. The problem I'm talking about has nothing to do with game style paradigms but with mechanics that hamper the need for skills drastically the higher spells become available.

I don't think having skills turn around and emulate spells will solve this, so much as just make certain spells become at-will (Ex) abilities because of the skills that can pull them off.

The advantage of using skills over spells is that you don't need to shepherd any resources to use skills. If you want a skill to stay relevant, have LOTS of opportunities to use it in any given adventuring day. Spells will bypass or auto-pass on them to a point, but eventually they run out. And, in practice, if a skill is a major schtick of a non-caster, casters probably won't waste resources on the spells to cover them, unless those skills are the sort that everybody wants to be able to do for themselves (e.g. Perception).

[rel]

I've given this idea some thought over the years. Here are my conclusions

Not Checks but Ranks
A skill check is easy to get really really good at. Between items, spells, helpers and circumstances you often don't need skill ranks at all. Further, DC's tend to be difficult to set because of the huge possible variance in the range of bonuses to a given skill.
Ranks on the other hand represent a genuine investment of character build resources and are a lot more cohesive between characters and groups.

So, give out powers not based on the ability to hit some random DC but based on having a number of ranks in a particular skill. There is a limited amount of this in the system already; 5 ranks in balance let's you walk on unstable ground without becoming flat footed. You just need to expand and improve the idea.

Make Your Own Powers

I usually have quite specific ideas about the power level, theming and mechanical underpinnings of a given rules change. Copying existing spells constrains such considerations for no real benefit.

The main advantage of using existing materials is not balance, we all know it isn't, it's variety.
If you say pick a spell or feat or what have you then the whole materials of 3.5 and possibly beyond is open to the chooser.
Almost unlimited variety of powers for little effort.
If you are picking a single power, just write your own. It will be a better fit for what you want and you can make tweaks more easily too.

A Note On Process
I find I get better results if I start a rule rewrite by clearly defining what I'm hoping to achieve.
How strong I want it to be, how it should feel, anything I want to avoid.
Build a framework first then use it as a guide.

That way you can easily determine if something is too strong, too weak, in need of changing, etc. You often know how things need to change as well so the design process is smoother overall.

[Erloas]

I assume you've already seen the "Unchained" additions to skills? I would probably expand on that idea, just add more things like that which can be done with skills.

A big part is simply to make the "skill" encounters common enough to care about. If you're always in town, or following a road, and don't really track food, shelter, and weather, then survival is going to have lost many of its uses. If infiltration is never really an option then stealth and disguise are not going to be used much. If there is never a reason to climb, or swim then those skills aren't really going to do much. No one has ever healed a poison they never encountered. And while most of those things can be done with spells, at mid to low levels those spell slots will be much more valuable, not to mention never knowing which skills you're going to need to replicate. Put many different situations in front of the players and they'll find different ways to use their skills too.

Some of it too would probably be as simple as letting your players know that skill use goes well beyond RAW. Depending on their experiences with other DMs they might simply never try to do anything "unusual" with a skill if it isn't directly spelled out in the rules because it wasn't allowed before. Someone might actually try using Heal instead of a potion of CLW if heal actually does enough to be worth trying.

[King of Nowhere]

it's a good idea in principle; in practice it's somewhat problematic; because there's some spell-based ways to gain large boosts on skill checks (as well as potentially magic items giving large boosts to specific skills).
First thing I did was to remove those crazy boosts. Maximum buff you can get to a skill is +5 for social skills, +10 for most other skills. Magic can help you, but you still are rewarded for investing in it.






At certain levels there is no reason to deal with that kind of stuff using skills as here are spells for ist which are faster to execute and more reliable. The problem I'm talking about has nothing to do with game style paradigms but with mechanics that hamper the need for skills drastically the higher spells become available.
problem with it is that using magic on the baron to persuade him is not guaranteed to work, and will likely result in an angry baron. mind raping people may be faster than talking to them, but it tends to build up lots of enemies in the long run.

So, the solution is to have skills do stuff that magic cannot replicate, at least not with great expences. Maybe super masterwork items are so good that they cannot be replicated with magic (except maybe wish, but that comes with a hefty xp cost). Certainly a good diplomacy is better for making long-term friends than any mind magic. stealth may look obsolete in front of invisibility, but throw in some see invisibility, and hiding the old fashioned way is useful again. Jumping is inferior to flight, but it cannot be dispelled. And all of the above work in antimagic just fine.

[Segev]

So, the solution is to have skills do stuff that magic cannot replicate, at least not with great expences. Maybe super masterwork items are so good that they cannot be replicated with magic (except maybe wish, but that comes with a hefty xp cost). Certainly a good diplomacy is better for making long-term friends than any mind magic. stealth may look obsolete in front of invisibility, but throw in some see invisibility, and hiding the old fashioned way is useful again. Jumping is inferior to flight, but it cannot be dispelled. And all of the above work in antimagic just fine.

Also, making magic require skills to use effectively, or give bonuses to skills such that having the skills means that you're much better with the magic on you than the caster probably is.

Take invisibility, for example. In practice, this "only" gives a -20 penalty to perceive you. Sure, they can't see you, but if they roll well enough, they can hear, smell, or otherwise spot the way you distort the environment (from obvious things like footprints and brushing against objects to less obvious things like how your physical bulk alters the acoustics of the room or changes the airflow. Seriously, try having a conversation with somebody behind you, and have somebody else walk between you; it does impact the sound).

If all the caster has is invisibility + his dex mod, that's pretty good! But it will still get him spotted at higher levels, even without see invisibility. Cast it on the rogue specializing in stealth, however, and now the invisibility is enabling stealth that it definitely takes magic to penetrate, at least by anything approaching comparable CR.

Designing magic in general with an eye towards this philosophy will improve the game, I think. It makes the wizard BETTER as support, even if he can "support" himself to make himself marginally competent. He has a party because they make his spells better. Just as the party has him because his spells make them better.

[doctor doughnut]

I have an issue concerning the 3.5/pathfinder skills. I agree with the common sense that skills matter less and less with the level progress of characters

I'm not sure this is all that common of common sense. I don't see it in my games, and at least some others.

Skills can do just fine at higher levels, but they don't need to act like magic.

[MeimuHakurei]

Also, making magic require skills to use effectively, or give bonuses to skills such that having the skills means that you're much better with the magic on you than the caster probably is.

Take invisibility, for example. In practice, this "only" gives a -20 penalty to perceive you. Sure, they can't see you, but if they roll well enough, they can hear, smell, or otherwise spot the way you distort the environment (from obvious things like footprints and brushing against objects to less obvious things like how your physical bulk alters the acoustics of the room or changes the airflow. Seriously, try having a conversation with somebody behind you, and have somebody else walk between you; it does impact the sound).

If all the caster has is invisibility + his dex mod, that's pretty good! But it will still get him spotted at higher levels, even without see invisibility. Cast it on the rogue specializing in stealth, however, and now the invisibility is enabling stealth that it definitely takes magic to penetrate, at least by anything approaching comparable CR.

Designing magic in general with an eye towards this philosophy will improve the game, I think. It makes the wizard BETTER as support, even if he can "support" himself to make himself marginally competent. He has a party because they make his spells better. Just as the party has him because his spells make them better.

Depends on the situation. In full stealth missions, using invisibility or silence to aid people bad at stealth (which the wizard may or may not be) is generally more helpful than pumping up the one person who already excels.

And while invisibility "only" provides a bonus to stealth, there's several spells that can outright bypass certain skill uses, like knock or fly do. The best idea is to account for the access to spells at higher level (and their increased quantity) - after all, higher level parties should have much greater challenges out of combat just like in combat.

[Segev]

Depends on the situation. In full stealth missions, using invisibility or silence to aid people bad at stealth (which the wizard may or may not be) is generally more helpful than pumping up the one person who already excels.Oh, sure. This may be a good area to propose additional uses of skills, actually: the ability to take a penalty to guide others in their performance, giving them a bonus to their own checks.


And while invisibility "only" provides a bonus to stealth, there's several spells that can outright bypass certain skill uses, like knock or fly do. The best idea is to account for the access to spells at higher level (and their increased quantity) - after all, higher level parties should have much greater challenges out of combat just like in combat.

Indeed. And such spells would be better designed if they merely gave a bonus to the skill checks they currently obviate. Well, knock would. Climb being obviated by fly is better handled by PF's approach of taking so narrowly-focused a skill and making it part of a broader one, e.g. Athletics. While Athletics may incorporate Jump and Climb, and those are also both made needless if one can achieve arbitrary 3D motion, making PF's Fly skill roll into Athletics would actually fix this, given how Fly interacts with fly. Add in that Athletics still incorporates Tumble and Balance, both of which have potential uses even for those who can fly (if we don't assume the only penalties for failing them are 'falling down helplessly'), and fly becomes associated with, but does not obviate, Athletics. Or Acrobatics, if you prefer.

[Deophaun]

The advantage of using skills over spells is that you don't need to shepherd any resources to use skills. If you want a skill to stay relevant, have LOTS of opportunities to use it in any given adventuring day.
^^^ This.

Just take a look at your initial example: you're requiring three skill checks that will take a "long time to perform" to cover a rare event that could more easily be handled by the Cleric going to sleep and preparing remove curse. All that you're doing is underlining how superior magic is to skills, not making skills more attractive.