[3.5] Spells per day or per rest?

[erraddo]

Hello, this is my first post here, thanks in advance for your help.

So i'm DMing for a group of new players, me included, with an experienced player helping us out with the rules. Having a party of 2 druids, a wu jen, a rogue and a bard, i looked at the spell casting rules and, as far as i understand it, to regain your daily spells you need to rest for 8 hours and meditate/study for 15 minutes to 1 hour depending on class/number of spells to memorize.

I took that to mean that you may rest 8 hours at any point in the day, even if you already did, and regain your spells. My player took it to mean that since spells are daily, no matter how many times you rest, you still have to wait a day. He puts more weight on the "daily" part than i do i guess. I'd argue that since different species sleep at different hours, your spellcasting is probably more linked to your mental state than the planet's rotation, he argues that all species have a 24-hour cycle and they'd just reset at different hours.

This would be a minor disagreement if my players had not, at the end of the last session, rested morning-to-evening while in a (mostly cleared) dungeon, after they had already used some spells. So now we kinda need to know a definitive answer.

While i'm here i'll bring up one more point of disagreement: the PHB states that you not needing to sleep does not mean you do not need to rest 8 hours for your spells. the DMG's Ring of Sustenance states "...sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep.". To me this just means the bodily benefits and does not affect spellcasting. He disagrees, as it does not remove the need to sleep, it fullfills it faster.

Also, final question: if you have spells prepared and go to sleep, do you then lose your spells, or are they at your disposal until you memorize new ones? In which case, why even memorize new ones if youdidn't use them yesterday?

It is to be noted that:
1- if you look at the rules for natural healing, it's clear that sleeping a full day grants different bonuses to sleeing 8 hours multiplied by 3, but i'd argue that natural healing has little to do with spellcasting.
2- we are all Italian and are using italians books for this. They are usually well-translated and if unsure i always check the english copies, but still.

[Telonius]

Usually, "spells per day" means "spells per day." However, there is a special situation that can affect spell preparation: the "recent casting limit."

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm):


Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

There's a similar limit on Bard and Sorcerer spells:


Recent Casting Limit
As with wizards, any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the sorcerer’s or bard’s daily limit.


Also Divine Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineRecentCastingLimit):


Recent Casting Limit
As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.


Usually, this isn't an issue, since adventurers most often prepare spells just after an 8-hour rest. However if they had to cast some spells during the night (or 8 hours before they prepare them, whenever that is), those spell slots aren't available.


Wizards also have as special ability to leave some slots unprepared, and fill them later in the day:


Spell Preparation Time
After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.

Spell Selection and Preparation
Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

This is specific to the wizard; no other class gets this benefit.

[The Kool]

as far as i understand it, to regain your daily spells you need to rest for 8 hours and meditate/study for 15 minutes to 1 hour depending on class/number of spells to memorize.

I took that to mean that you may rest 8 hours at any point in the day, even if you already did, and regain your spells. My player took it to mean that since spells are daily, no matter how many times you rest, you still have to wait a day. He puts more weight on the "daily" part than i do i guess. I'd argue that since different species sleep at different hours, your spellcasting is probably more linked to your mental state than the planet's rotation, he argues that all species have a 24-hour cycle and they'd just reset at different hours.

As the DM it's ultimately your call, however I'm inclined to side with your players on this one. 8 hours of restfulness, being mindful of the recent casting limit (any spells cast within the past 8 hours count against your spells you can prepare). It depends on the group though, I'm also in a large-scale shared world where I'd never let this fly. As the DM, it's up to you to decide which is fair.


While i'm here i'll bring up one more point of disagreement: the PHB states that you not needing to sleep does not mean you do not need to rest 8 hours for your spells. the DMG's Ring of Sustenance states "...sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep.". To me this just means the bodily benefits and does not affect spellcasting. He disagrees, as it does not remove the need to sleep, it fullfills it faster.

You'd be correct here, to my understanding. The spellcasting preparation rules are independent of the nightly restfulness rules, and have their own requirements. Even if you decide the player is correct though, the recent casting limit applies. Maybe you can rest for 2 hours after the boss fight, but it does you no good because you can't get those spells back yet.


Also, final question: if you have spells prepared and go to sleep, do you then lose your spells, or are they at your disposal until you memorize new ones? In which case, why even memorize new ones if youdidn't use them yesterday?

You keep them! In fact, this can speed up your prep in the morning. If you only need to refill half your spell slots, it only takes half an hour instead of an hour. The time spent is proportional to the number of slots you need to fill, with a minimum of 15 minutes spent.


if you look at the rules for natural healing, it's clear that sleeping a full day grants different bonuses to sleeing 8 hours multiplied by 3, but i'd argue that natural healing has little to do with spellcasting.

Actually, I've always interpreted the 'full day' of rest to be in addition to the night of rest. Supported by the Long Term Care section of the Heal skill, which does break care down into 8 hour blocks. There might be official words that contradict me, but that's my take on it.

[ericgrau]

"Per day" lacks much further detail, but per day means per day. Like any other per day ability like a class feature or a per day item ability. An hour is also just a human construct, but it makes the game simpler for us humans to measure time in days, hours and minutes. Other units would get annoying to play.

You can Google ring of sustenance for debates in other threads. Most think you still need 8 hours of rest (regardless of sleep) to prepare spells even with the ring. Just like any creature that doesn't need to sleep 8 hours to get the benefits of a full night's sleep. There is one specific item without this restriction which you can also Google. Some disagree. You can Google and read everyone's points if you're interested.

In the magic overview section of the PHB it says you don't lose your previous day's spells after you rest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#recentCastingLimitRestInterruptio ns). Unless it was cast within 8 hours before preparing spells. So if you're ambushed in the morning while preparing spells, you still have all your spells from the previous day. Any cast in that particular fight couldn't be replaced while preparing spells though.



Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

[erraddo]

Actually, I've always interpreted the 'full day' of rest to be in addition to the night of rest. Supported by the Long Term Care section of the Heal skill, which does break care down into 8 hour blocks. There might be official words that contradict me, but that's my take on it.

The Italian version of the PHB states 2 HP/level per 8 hours or 4 HP/level per 24 hours, with a very clear either/or, but that might just be a stricter translation of an ambiguous rule.



Thank you everyone for the help! :D

[The Kool]

Long-Term Care
Providing long-term care means treating a wounded person for a day or more. If your Heal check is successful, the patient recovers hit points or ability score points (lost to ability damage) at twice the normal rate: 2 hit points per level for a full 8 hours of rest in a day, or 4 hit points per level for each full day of complete rest; 2 ability score points for a full 8 hours of rest in a day, or 4 ability score points for each full day of complete rest.

My interpretation (which I understand may be controversial) is that "full day" is just an explanation/expansion of the previous clause in the same sentence. "2 per 8 hours" and "4 per full day" are connected thoughts, if the grammar and punctuation are to be believed, leading us to believe they are intrinsically related. That's how I've always ruled it, thus allowing players to take an effective night/day/night of rest if they lack magical healing, or the remaining half-day, then a night, then half a day. You're free to do with it what you will.

[Torpin]

per the SRD
"A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells. "
so the druids only have one opportunity per day to regain spells no matter how you slice it

but yeah, its only once per day