Gish Nomenclature

[Anderlith]

Discuss the ideas behind the combination of martial prowess & spellcraft & what to call those who do so

[JoeJ]

Discuss the ideas behind the combination of martial prowess & spellcraft & what to call those who do so

You mean the Elf class? :smalltongue:

[Galithar]

Do you actually have something to discuss? Or are you just trying to prompt conversation in others? Are you looking for the origin of the term Gish? Why it's used? Come up with nomenclature that you like better??

[Anderlith]

Do you actually have something to discuss? Or are you just trying to prompt conversation in others? Are you looking for the origin of the term Gish? Why it's used? Come up with nomenclature that you like better??

The Artificer thread was getting pretty off topic so I made this thread

[Rukelnikov]

IMO, there are no single class gishes in 5e, using multiclass the closest I can see to one would be a Ftr11/Sorc9, able to fight properly and cast a meaningful spell in the same round.

[Galithar]

IMO, there are no single class gishes in 5e, using multiclass the closest I can see to one would be a Ftr11/Sorc9, able to fight properly and cast a meaningful spell in the same round.

How are the 1/3 casters not gishes? Eldritch Knight not a Gish? Sorry but that's just wrong.
Is it a super powered one? No. But it is a martial adept that is capable of casting effective spells and still Duke it out in melee.
And yes, multiclassing makes a more powerful caster but a gish is not a master caster and master martial combatant. They are an effective combination of the two.

As for multiclassing Gish the Sorcadin is far more powerful then Fighter 11/ Sorcerer 9.
6 or 7 levels Paladin then everything left in Sorcerer. At level 20 you can cast Level 7 spells with the slots of a level 16 caster while wearing heavy armor and swinging your chosen pointy thing into the bad guy. Sure you can't cast a leveled spell and melee in the same turn, but that doesn't make it any less of a gish.

[Rukelnikov]

How are the 1/3 casters not gishes? Eldritch Knight not a Gish? Sorry but that's just wrong.
Is it a super powered one? No. But it is a martial adept that is capable of casting effective spells and still Duke it out in melee.
And yes, multiclassing makes a more powerful caster but a gish is not a master caster and master martial combatant. They are an effective combination of the two.

The Eldritch Knight is almost always better attacking than casting a spell, and has to gimp its attack in order to do both in a single round (or use AS).


As for multiclassing Gish the Sorcadin is far more powerful then Fighter 11/ Sorcerer 9.
6 or 7 levels Paladin then everything left in Sorcerer. At level 20 you can cast Level 7 spells with the slots of a level 16 caster while wearing heavy armor and swinging your chosen pointy thing into the bad guy. Sure you can't cast a leveled spell and melee in the same turn, but that doesn't make it any less of a gish.

Its not a matter of power, its a matter of attacking effectively, and casting effectively in a single round, Sorcadins can be gishes as well as Ftr/Sorc.

[Kane0]

I like the definition of 'one syllable to say warrior/mage, derived from the Githyanki title'. There is a general vibe that 'arcane' magic is preferenced over 'divine' (5e really blurs the line between them) but not really a full consensus.

In 3.PF it seemed to be defined in optimization circles as having both 4 attacks and 9th level spells (ie functionally full BAB and full casting progression) but I never really saw it get used in that manner in general discussion. It appeared to be along the lines of 'at least 3/4 BAB and 5th level arcane casting' like what the 3.5 Duskblade or PF magus was in a nutshell. There were plenty that were 'close' though, like the Bard and Hexblade not to mention all the 'nonstandard' mage types like Incarnum and Psionic options, Binders, Warlocks, etc.

[Galithar]

The Eldritch Knight is almost always better attacking than casting a spell, and has to gimp its attack in order to do both in a single round (or use AS).



Its not a matter of power, its a matter of attacking effectively, and casting effectively in a single round, Sorcadins can be gishes as well as Ftr/Sorc.

Simply put, you're not casting the right spells then.
A Gish does not need to attack and cast in the same round, although an EK can do so effectively under certain circumstances. (Warcaster OA for example) though they lack the ability to cast and attack in the same turn as well as other Gish builds.

What your definition of Gish boils down to is simply overpowered. Cast as well as a full caster on the same turn as I fight as well as a full martial. That's not what a Gish is though. There is a level of balance to the casting and martial prowess that creates a Gish, otherwise you have a caster that occasionally swings or sword, or a Knight that occasionally casts a spell. Which maybe they're how you see Eldritch Knights, but I assure you that's all to do with spell selection and the player controlling the character.

[Anderlith]

Throwing my two cents in. If they made an Arcane based class borrowing from Paladin, but replacing the healing & divine style support spells, with things like blur & haste & other Arcane styled buff & control spells, while keeping Smites, that would be the perfect “gish” in my opinion.

[Constructman]

What about the supposedly martial(ish) full(ish) casters? Valor Bard, Swords Bard, Hexblade Warlock, Bladesinger Wizard. Do they fall short, and where?

[Rukelnikov]

Simply put, you're not casting the right spells then.
A Gish does not need to attack and cast in the same round, although an EK can do so effectively under certain circumstances. (Warcaster OA for example) though they lack the ability to cast and attack in the same turn as well as other Gish builds.

What your definition of Gish boils down to is simply overpowered. Cast as well as a full caster on the same turn as I fight as well as a full martial. That's not what a Gish is though. There is a level of balance to the casting and martial prowess that creates a Gish, otherwise you have a caster that occasionally swings or sword, or a Knight that occasionally casts a spell. Which maybe they're how you see Eldritch Knights, but I assure you that's all to do with spell selection and the player controlling the character.

Clearly no since my example was sorc 9? So, 5th lvl spells cap, and not as good as a figther sine I got 3 attacks instead of 4? IDK what your getting at, but after 20 years of playing lots of "fighter/mages" that's what my view of a true gish has become, I hit and I cast.

[Kane0]

What about the supposedly martial(ish) full(ish) casters? Valor Bard, Swords Bard, Hexblade Warlock, Bladesinger Wizard. Do they fall short, and where?

I think we need to define terms first, and that seems to be half of the argument :smallamused:

[Talionis]

Throwing my two cents in. If they made an Arcane based class borrowing from Paladin, but replacing the healing & divine style support spells, with things like blur & haste & other Arcane styled buff & control spells, while keeping Smites, that would be the perfect “gish” in my opinion.

This sorta reminds me of the Swiftblade from 3E. That focused on casting haste every fight.

[Rukelnikov]

This sorta reminds me of the Swiftblade from 3E. That focused on casting haste every fight.

Swiftblades made for great gishes, 3.x had lots of good gishes.

[Galithar]

Clearly no since my example was sorc 9? So, 5th lvl spells cap, and not as good as a figther sine I got 3 attacks instead of 4? IDK what your getting at, but after 20 years of playing lots of "fighter/mages" that's what my view of a true gish has become, I hit and I cast.

If it's simply 'I hit and I cast' then look no further then Eldritch Knight. They get to make an attack on the same turn they cast a cantrip!
So by your claimed definition an Eldritch Knight is a perfect example of a gish. Unless of course you require them to maintain all of their attacks and cast a leveled spell. IE fighting as good as a full martial and casting as well as a full caster. And there is a reason that only Sorcerers can do this, and at a relatively high resource cost. It breaks action economy.

An Eldritch Knight level 17 can choose to attack 3 times for (assume GWM mundane weapon and all hits) 3d12+45 or 64.5 damage. Or they can hit with a cantrip (booming blade and GWM) and deal 2d12+30 + 3d8 with a control rider that deals 4d8 if they move. Or 56.5 on hit and an additional 18 if they move.

Now that didn't take into account that the first GWM strikes didn't make use of their bonus action so you can add some extra damage there if using something like PAM for bonus action attack. But clearly the cantrip damage can be competitive even with the loss of an attack. And yes that gets worse at EK 20 but let's be honest, who plays at level 20 a lot?

So what's your reasoning the an EK isn't a gish? It is competitively casting and poking things with a sharp objects in one turn. It would be better if it could more easily and reliably do things like haste itself, but it's not like that's not an option as is. What makes it not a gish?

[dejarnjc]

Throwing my two cents in. If they made an Arcane based class borrowing from Paladin, but replacing the healing & divine style support spells, with things like blur & haste & other Arcane styled buff & control spells, while keeping Smites, that would be the perfect “gish” in my opinion.

Absolutely agree though I would change a few things like having a DEX or STR requirement for multi-classing, allowing TWF and archery as fighting styles, restricting the class to medium armor (maybe an archetype grants heavy armor), allow ritual casting, and other slight changes to distinguish the class and balance as necessary.

[Rukelnikov]

If it's simply 'I hit and I cast' then look no further then Eldritch Knight. They get to make an attack on the same turn they cast a cantrip!
So by your claimed definition an Eldritch Knight is a perfect example of a gish. Unless of course you require them to maintain all of their attacks and cast a leveled spell. IE fighting as good as a full martial and casting as well as a full caster. And there is a reason that only Sorcerers can do this, and at a relatively high resource cost. It breaks action economy.

An Eldritch Knight level 17 can choose to attack 3 times for (assume GWM mundane weapon and all hits) 3d12+45 or 64.5 damage. Or they can hit with a cantrip (booming blade and GWM) and deal 2d12+30 + 3d8 with a control rider that deals 4d8 if they move. Or 56.5 on hit and an additional 18 if they move.

Now that didn't take into account that the first GWM strikes didn't make use of their bonus action so you can add some extra damage there if using something like PAM for bonus action attack. But clearly the cantrip damage can be competitive even with the loss of an attack. And yes that gets worse at EK 20 but let's be honest, who plays at level 20 a lot?

So what's your reasoning the an EK isn't a gish? It is competitively casting and poking things with a sharp objects in one turn. It would be better if it could more easily and reliably do things like haste itself, but it's not like that's not an option as is. What makes it not a gish?

By your own calcs the EK is better off just attacking instead of casting and attacking, yeah that's my reason for it not being a true gish

[dejarnjc]

By your own calcs the EK is better off just attacking instead of casting and attacking, yeah that's my reason for it not being a true gish

But his calculations show that it's situationally dependent on which option is better...

Obviously you wouldn't want to GWM spam against a high AC opponent so you'd choose to attack and cast. Or if you wanted to persuade an enemy to stick close to you and not trigger booming blade, you'd attack and cast.

[Rukelnikov]

But his calculations show that it's situationally dependent on which option is better...

Obviously you wouldn't want to GWM spam against a high AC opponent so you'd choose to attack and cast. Or if you wanted to persuade an enemy to stick close to you and not trigger booming blade, you'd attack and cast.

Yeah, but the one using extra attack still has a BA to use. And even if you remove the -5/+10 Extra Attack still comes ahead.

That's still beside the fact that there's only 2 spells this tactic is valid with, so until lvl 18 you are basically limited to some concentration + 2 spells.

Do you get the fluff? Mostly. Does it really feel like you are playing a Wizard AND a Figther? Not for me

[Galithar]

By your own calcs the EK is better off just attacking instead of casting and attacking, yeah that's my reason for it not being a true gish

Actually try again. Add that 18 damage when booming blade procs and there is a higher average damage. As long as we're assuming all hits on GWM assume they move too.
I get it, you want to have your cake and eat it too and build a super powered tank with four attacks and casting high level damage/debuff spells. That's not how 5e is designed though. Those character builds that can do that (or come close) are border line overpowered, though they tend to be weak enough in other areas to make up for it because 5e doesn't really have much in the way of broken builds specifically because it's not possible to break ability caps (with a few limited exceptions) or action economy. Additionally I chose the scenario that was actually least favorable to the EK, where as the tank build (sword and board) is far more likely as that's what EKs are good at and swings things in favor of the cantrip attack combo.

Additionally by making use of the EKs ability to impose disadvantage to saving throws by hitting someone with an attack they can be as reliable with debuffs with a lower casting stat. Or if they choose to pump Int (or get an item to do it) they actually become more reliable than other debuff casters (barring portent use or other forced failure techniques) granted with a more limited selection of debuffs and slots. But again, that's the balance.

[Rukelnikov]

Actually try again. Add that 18 damage when booming blade procs and there is a higher average damage. As long as we're assuming all hits on GWM assume they move too.

You used GWM in both scenarios :S Missing is a bigger loss to the one casting, and finally, you can choose wether to use GWM or not, but you can't choose for the enemy to trigger BB. You should have made your example with GFB, where you will have some extra damage albeit divided, that is a good option, under some situation I'm better off attacking, in some i'm better off using GFB. I explained this in my last post you get Conc + 2 Options.


I get it, you want to have your cake and eat it too and build a super powered tank with four attacks and casting high level damage/debuff spells.

Nope I want 3 attacks and 5th level spells.


That's not how 5e is designed though. Those character builds that can do that (or come close) are border line overpowered,

Not seeing how that build is more "overpowered" than a XBE Battlemaster, which is, you know, a straight class.


though they tend to be weak enough in other areas to make up for it because 5e doesn't really have much in the way of broken builds specifically because it's not possible to break ability caps (with a few limited exceptions) or action economy.

The action economy can be thoroughly broken, Find Familiar is the suspect #1.


Additionally I chose the scenario that was actually least favorable to the EK, where as the tank build (sword and board) is far more likely as that's what EKs are good at and swings things in favor of the cantrip attack combo.

A SnB EK will be using Shadow Blade, which will favor Extra Attack harder than the PAM/GWM one.


Additionally by making use of the EKs ability to impose disadvantage to saving throws by hitting someone with an attack they can be as reliable with debuffs with a lower casting stat. Or if they choose to pump Int (or get an item to do it) they actually become more reliable than other debuff casters (barring portent use or other forced failure techniques) granted with a more limited selection of debuffs and slots. But again, that's the balance.

Yeah that is a good feature.

[Galithar]

You used GWM in both scenarios :S Missing is a bigger loss to the one casting, and finally, you can choose wether to use GWM or not, but you can't choose for the enemy to trigger BB. You should have made your example with GFB, where you will have some extra damage albeit divided, that is a good option, under some situation I'm better off attacking, in some i'm better off using GFB. I explained this in my last post you get Conc + 2 Options.



Nope I want 3 attacks and 5th level spells.



Not seeing how that build is more "overpowered" than a XBE Battlemaster, which is, you know, a straight class.



The action economy can be thoroughly broken, Find Familiar is the suspect #1.



A SnB EK will be using Shadow Blade, which will favor Extra Attack harder than the PAM/GWM one.



Yeah that is a good feature.

Find Familiar doesn't in any way break action economy without some dubious DM rulings (allowing things like a familiar maintaining haste on your character for you via a ring of spell storing).

Anytime I'm doing damage calculations for a build that doesn't account for chance to hit I always assume all damage sources provide average damage. Besides it's possible to force someone to move and proc Booming Blade (see Dissonant Whispers. It can force Opportunity attacks and since they use an action for it DMs I've played with rule that it procs Booming Blade though depending on DM you could argue that's not consistent enough for you especially since it would require teamwork to do)

Three full attacks and a level 5 spell in a turn is FAR more powerful then an XBE Battlemaster with 5 (at level 20 only) especially since the caster can Haste themselves to turn that into 4 attacks while the Battlemaster would be relient on an ally for boosts like that. Also note I don't think your build is overpowered. It's actually on the lower end of Gish build power and most of it doesn't come online until high levels.

The entire concept that a Gish requires 3 attacks and minimum half casting on the same turn is kind of out of whack too since Fighters are the ONLY martial class capable of getting 3 attacks. If you are looking for a combination of casting and martial prowess you shouldn't be aiming to be better in the martial aspect then majority of full martial classes.

But since that's so important to you. Monk/Cleric or Druid.

I'm gonna say off the top of my head Open Hand 9/Land Druid 11. You can't cast and attack in the same turn, but you have potent casting potential and through their bonus action attack 3 attacks per turn. 4 with nice control effects on a flurry. Plus you get level 6 spells and a once per long rest Regen of 5 levels worth of spells (taken at a short rest obviously). Not too mention a good set of short rest and long rest resources to ensure you can always contribute to the fight. Definitely a focus on the control aspect with this build but it works. Sure it's not a single class, but EK already did that. And Honestly a War Cleric can try to pretend to be a Gish, though I don't truly think it's martial prowess is actually deserving of the name.

[Rukelnikov]

Find Familiar doesn't in any way break action economy without some dubious DM rulings (allowing things like a familiar maintaining haste on your character for you via a ring of spell storing).

That works RAW. Anyway I don't like Haste, i used my familiar to cast MM from a wand, and by lvl 16, to ready action to turn on a cube of force.


Anytime I'm doing damage calculations for a build that doesn't account for chance to hit I always assume all damage sources provide average damage. Besides it's possible to force someone to move and proc Booming Blade (see Dissonant Whispers. It can force Opportunity attacks and since they use an action for it DMs I've played with rule that it procs Booming Blade though depending on DM you could argue that's not consistent enough for you especially since it would require teamwork to do)

Three full attacks and a level 5 spell in a turn is FAR more powerful then an XBE Battlemaster with 5 (at level 20 only) especially since the caster can Haste themselves to turn that into 4 attacks while the Battlemaster would be relient on an ally for boosts like that. Also note I don't think your build is overpowered. It's actually on the lower end of Gish build power and most of it doesn't come online until high levels.

The entire concept that a Gish requires 3 attacks and minimum half casting on the same turn is kind of out of whack too since Fighters are the ONLY martial class capable of getting 3 attacks. If you are looking for a combination of casting and martial prowess you shouldn't be aiming to be better in the martial aspect then majority of full martial classes.

But since that's so important to you. Monk/Cleric or Druid.

I'm gonna say off the top of my head Open Hand 9/Land Druid 11. You can't cast and attack in the same turn, but you have potent casting potential and through their bonus action attack 3 attacks per turn. 4 with nice control effects on a flurry. Plus you get level 6 spells and a once per long rest Regen of 5 levels worth of spells (taken at a short rest obviously). Not too mention a good set of short rest and long rest resources to ensure you can always contribute to the fight. Definitely a focus on the control aspect with this build but it works. Sure it's not a single class, but EK already did that. And Honestly a War Cleric can try to pretend to be a Gish, though I don't truly think it's martial prowess is actually deserving of the name.

Its not a requirement to attack 3 times, but you need to be a decent martial, any character can equip a weapon and take the attack action, the idea is that spending your action on it does not mean purposefully lowering your combat capabilities, or vice versa.

Take Bladesinger for instance, they get Extra Attack, and Int to weapon damage at 14th, but how often would you actually take the attack action? Only when you would have used a cantrip, and maybe you are still gonna use the cantrip anyways (GFB/BB)

[Luccan]

I honestly think EK, Bladesinger, and/or a multi-class warrior/arcane caster do it fine. They all lean (or could lean, you could go 10/10 on the multiclass, I guess) one way or the other, but I don't see why that's an issue. Though an arcane half-caster warrior would be appreciated (artificer is not a warrior, though they're tougher than some of the other arcane options). And some equivalent for psionics, if that ever gets introduced (and hopefully not just turned into the exact same thing as the other spell casters).

As has been pointed out, there are other subclasses that lean more towards the spellcasting side as well. Valor/Swords Bard and Hexblade aren't traditional gishes, but I would say they do a pretty good job. Especially Hexblade, which I think might be the closest the game gets to a single class, half-and-half gish.

Side note: why doesn't Sorcerer have its own physical combat subclass yet? Wizard arguably has two (if you build an Abjurer right, they can stand in close combat a lot more often than you'd think), all Warlock subclasses could conceivably take Blade Pact (no matter how ill-advised), and all Bards are at least decent at close combat because Bards can do whatever they want.