Fresh one-shot: Players are dungeon keepers

[TyGuy]

Edit 3/6/19: Added a quote with brainstorming ideas. Click on [view post] to check them out. Altered some other stuff.

Sometimes people like to mix it up and play an evil party. But how cumbersome it would eventually get, being roaming bad guys. Going around pissing off everyone, making enemies across the countryside, escalating bounties. The lair is totally making a lot of sense right?

So how about this idea. A bit of role reversal! The players are the evil bad guys and they run their lair. And the GM plays the infiltrating do-gooders trying to depose the evil PCs (or maybe they're just in it for the loot)

The premise is the players pick from some pregen bad guys. Perhaps if there's enough of a heads up they can generate their own before hand. But there's no time to waste on character creation because the focus is on lair creation and stocking. They pick a lair template (more on that later). And recieve a sum of gold. They spend the gold on traps, structure improvements, minions, and outfitting the minions. Perhaps some room types as prerequisites? And then they defend their lair against those damn goody two shoes controlled by the GM.

Phase 1: pick mode and bad guys
Phase 2: pick lair template
Phase 3: stock lair
Phase 4: defend lair


Brainstorming Ideas

Put yourself in this situation. What would you love to see in this circumstance?

[MaxWilson]

So how about this idea. A bit of role reversal! The players are the evil bad guys and they run their lair. And the GM plays the infiltrating do-gooders trying to depose the evil PCs (or maybe they're just in it for the loot)

I've always wanted to do this (see: Dungeon Keeper) but I could never figure out a good game structure: how do you actually run this thing at the table so that it will be fun for the players and the DM? I look forward to what everyone comes up with on this thread.

[TyGuy]

I think you run it like you normally do but in opposite.

Typically the adventurers try to sneak in, disarm some traps, avoid patrols, try to find and kill the boss. But they're going in blind, their biggest advantage is the element of surprise.

In reverse. The bad guys are hanging out in their lair, maintaining it. Roleplaying with the NPC minions. Getting ever more paranoid with each passing day. Unit! A trap is sprung! They have no idea who's in their fortress! Unless they bought a scrying sentry of course.

Obviously the adventurers will be overpowered min/maxing sons o' bitches so the pressure is on for the players to out maneuver them and rely on their planning and preparations to survive the attack.

[MaxWilson]

I think you run it like you normally do but in opposite.

Typically the adventurers try to sneak in, disarm some traps, avoid patrols, try to find and kill the boss. But they're going in blind, their biggest advantage is the element of surprise.

In reverse. The bad guys are hanging out in their lair, maintaining it. Roleplaying with the NPC minions. Getting ever more paranoid with each passing day. Unit! A trap is sprung! They have no idea who's in their fortress! Unless they bought a scrying sentry of course.

Obviously the adventurers will be overpowered min/maxing sons o' ----- so the pressure is on for the players to out maneuver them and rely on their planning and preparations to survive the attack.


The problem is, the "normal" way of running a dungeon is heavily-contrived to favor the players. The dominant strategy for the bad guys, if they knew the PCs were coming, would be to concentrate their forces so that instead of a bunch of little fights with e.g. two monsters apiece, there's one big fight with twelve monsters that squash the invaders flat.

So you need some kind of constraints on the Dungeon Keepers to ensure that they act "realistically" somehow.

There are also concerns with information sharing if they do scatter their forces realistically--how do you keep information appropriately "hidden" from monsters who shouldn't know what other monsters know?

There are additional factors like "are there any restrictions on what monsters you can pick?" (are Pixies and Intellect Devourers fair game?) and "are there restrictions on how smart the monsters will be played?" (can I play a T-Rex with human-level intelligence and kiting strategies?).

I've just never figured out a good ruleset that persuades me that both players and DMs would have a good time while still resembling a traditional dungeon crawl in reverse. The closest I've ever come is a degenerate case where you just give up on traditional dungeon crawls and say, "Okay, this is one big brawl, and you have a Deadly XP budget to play with, and the DM [playing the invading adventurers] gets to veto three types of monsters [e.g. Stirges, Pixies, Intellect Devourers]."

[Coretex]

This is a really fun idea!

I propose the following way to play it out in three phases:
* Players make characters knowing they are the bosses of a dungeon they are about to design. Est ~20 Minutes
* Players co-ordinate with the DM to design a dungeon with the express purpose of repelling/murderizing an invading troop of goodies. The players should have some idea of what spell level to expect (is there Passwall? Is there Wish?). I'd give them a time limit to keep it from getting too nitpicky/perfect. Est ~30 Minutes.
(Also, encourage thematically appropriate but fluffy rooms just for verisimilitude. Eg Treasure room, Guard barracks, the kitchen, the loo, etc.)
* A troop of "heroes" wanders in to kill the boss. Bring in LOTS of guys. The Players know what dungeons are about, and I'd bet they would have lots of great ideas to kill dungeoneers. You can scale the number to just beyond how difficult you expect it to be. That way the dungeon can be appropriately lethal without having 50% unused because the early traps got them all.
Play it like normal. The players can wander their dungeon doing things to taunt or kill the invaders, the Goodies overcome obstacles and swear vengeance on the evil players. Whatever number makes it through the dungeon fights any PCs who are waiting for them at the end (they might have killed the rogue already :smallsmile:)


A dungeon is often themed depending on who is the boss of it.
For the players, all working together (I assume) this means that they can design parts of it to suit their various strengths!
If a player is a fighter, they build a section of the dungeon to weed out ranged opponents. And adds obstructing walls to the final boss room so that there is not a lot of line of sight.
A rogue player might add secret passages so that they can learn the strengths and weaknesses of the invaders, as well as make some choice assassinations.
A spellcaster player might add chasms and deadly traps to force the use of higher level spell slots, and give themselves vantage points for spellcasting in the boss room.
etc etc.

The more characterization the characters have, the more characterization their dungeon will have. Someone who created a build (especially knowing that they would be dungeon keeping) will be much more invested in minions that complement their strengths, and designs that give them the edge.


Challenges I forsee:
The invading heroes will need to be prepared with a cheat sheet of their useful abilities in advance. They don't need to be full PC classed character, but you will want enough to them that the players feel badass for taking out so many of what could have been them.
Id get a big page with 2 lines per invader. One with little boxes marking the abilities/stats they can use so that you can cross them out as they get used (thus showing the players that they are draining resources even if no-one dies), and one with some fluffy information about their characters and inter party relations. So that you can banter and give the Players something to use if they decide to get psychological with it.
Have at ~20 characters ready and then just bring into the dungeon whichever number will be the appropriate challenge.(if the dungeon sucks, players x2. If it is unambiguously nightmarish, players x 4+)
Make sure to visibly keep track of the hero resources used, health points lost, etc. But don't show the players the details.

Some players might give themselves the role of "stands in boss room". That would be boring as you play the heroes through the dungeon, so encourage them to find roles for during the delve. Maybe they manage the minions (probably a good idea to limit minion autonomy in that case), Maybe they spy with scrying and learn what they can, Maybe they shoot the squishies through tiny slits in some walls.

I don't think it is feasible to be absent during the planning phase, for ensure balance and to know the appropriate invading force for this dungeon. Thus it might be tricky to react to the dungeon naturally for a clump of diminishing adventurers. It's a good DMing challenge though, so I say go for it!

[Ninja_Prawn]

I've just never figured out a good ruleset that persuades me that both players and DMs would have a good time while still resembling a traditional dungeon crawl in reverse.

As a huge fan of the Dungeon Keeper games, I've always wanted to run a reverse dungeon crawl in d&d - but I've also been unable to come up with a framework that ensures enjoyment for all.

In the end, I thought it might be more fun to run a game in the Dungeon Keeper setting, but have it be a standard "small band of PCs goes on adventures" style of game. I actually wrote up notes on a game for evil PCs, set in a world after the Keeper from the video games had successfully conquered the surface world. Not had time to run it yet, though.

[Unoriginal]

I'd advise to use NPC statblocks rather than PC sheets, for the PCs and their goons.

[Great Dragon]

Waaaay back, in 3x D&D - I had a Group that was over 10 Players, and I simply felt overwhelmed as the DM.

So, I took the Idea of the Reverse Dungeon; and had the Experienced Players do as suggested, and make and run their own Evil Lair.

I allowed the Strongholds book as well as any 3x compatible "Dungeon-Building" books that they could bring a copy of to the table.

I gave them a 1,000 gp per Level of the BBEG, with a cap of 10th Level/HD.
Stocking the Dungeon with Minions cost 200 gp per CR - and yes creatures with less than 1 CR were given in enough numbers to equal that, with strange creatures (Intellect Devourer - unless you were a Mind Flayer, etc) costing 500 gp per CR point.
Monsters used the Stat Blocks of the MMs.
Classed Creatures would only have their Prime Stat Rolled.

Then I allowed the Other Players to make their PCs as normal, and then let the fun ensue.
For the most part, I ended up making Roaming Little BEGs that were trying to get the Evil PCs as well.

It was a blast!

I'd love to do this in 5e (or even 3x again), but finding dedicated Players near me IRL is Hard.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Sometimes people like to mix it up and play an evil party. But how cumbersome it would eventually get, being roaming bad guys. Going around pissing off everyone, making enemies across the countryside, escalating bounties. The lair is totally making a lot of sense right?

So how about this idea. A bit of role reversal! The players are the evil bad guys and they run their lair. And the GM plays the infiltrating do-gooders trying to depose the evil PCs (or maybe they're just in it for the loot)

The premise is the players pick from some pregen bad guys. Perhaps if there's enough of a heads up they can generate their own before hand. But there's no time to waste on character creation because the focus is on lair creation and stocking. They pick a lair template (more on that later). And recieve a sum of gold. They spend the gold on traps, structure improvements, minions, and outfitting the minions. Perhaps some room types as prerequisites? And then they defend their lair against those damn goody two shoes controlled by the GM.

Phase 1: pick bad guys
Phase 2: pick lair template
Phase 3: stock lair
Phase 4: defend lair

Some ideas I'm brainstorming. Maybe there's an arch villain mode in which one player gets to control/ play one powerful boss while the others get to control strong minions (think lieutenants) with potentially some back ups (extra lives) to make up for the fact that they're not the BBEG. Arch villains, their minions, and lair combinations might be: dragon, dragonborn & kobolds, dragon lair; necromancer, undead, subterranean dungeon.

Or perhaps a mode where everyone is more equal. Like a thieves guild lair.

I'm thinking of making racial perks for stocking the lair. Like a goblin PC gets a price reduction on traps, or specific kinds of traps. And a kobold PC gets access to many very cheap kobolds.

Put yourself in this situation. What would you love to see in this circumstance?

Forge of Fury Spoiler below.

A group I DM for took over the Forge of Fury and even moved in. Every so often I have a band of Orcs come back and launch an ill fated frontal assault. Pretty soon some Drow are going to find their way in one of the alternative ways. That will give the PC's two fronts to battle on. Maybe give them an incentive to set traps behind themselves to defend the dwarves they've hired.

Gotta keep the front moving if you want defense to be fun.

[TyGuy]

Good points, lets look at them.


The problem is, the "normal" way of running a dungeon is heavily-contrived to favor the players. The dominant strategy for the bad guys, if they knew the PCs were coming, would be to concentrate their forces so that instead of a bunch of little fights with e.g. two monsters apiece, there's one big fight with twelve monsters that squash the invaders flat.
That may be a mistake for a few reasons. Remember, the GM isn't playing nice and will have a wizard with a fighter dip for action surge so he can double fireball on a concentrated force. A couple of the adventurers may have a wand of fireballs to boot. Furthermore there are ways to get in through other points with spells. But I think ultimately there will have to be sort of templates for the general layout of the lairs to balance them and make a mandatory 2 or more entry points.



So you need some kind of constraints on the Dungeon Keepers to ensure that they act "realistically" somehow.

There are also concerns with information sharing if they do scatter their forces realistically--how do you keep information appropriately "hidden" from monsters who shouldn't know what other monsters know?
These aren't unique issues and apply to regular campaigns too. I think they'll have to be handled the same way.


There are additional factors like "are there any restrictions on what monsters you can pick?" (are Pixies and Intellect Devourers fair game?) and "are there restrictions on how smart the monsters will be played?" (can I play a T-Rex with human-level intelligence and kiting strategies?).
Absolutely. A list of available minions, their cost, and their equipment/upgrade costs will be provided. With discounts depending on the player's character choices. I think roleplaying the intelligence would have to be handled the same as usual. But they are villains after all, perhaps one of the traditionally dumb minions had a bit of experimentation done on it, or the awaken spell.

[MaxWilson]

That may be a mistake for a few reasons. Remember, the GM isn't playing nice and will have a wizard with a fighter dip for action surge so he can double fireball on a concentrated force. A couple of the adventurers may have a wand of fireballs to boot.

This answer to this isn't to split up, merely to spread out. Twelve monsters can support each other without necessarily entering Fireball Formation. Goblins with bows, giants with boulders, etc. Since you create the dungeon you can ensure sufficiently large areas. Even better if e.g. one of the twelve is a hobgoblin Devastator who supports using Counterspell. Anyway, that's why you'd want to have rules which encourage you *not* to do the tactically smart thing and concentrate your forces--it won't resemble normal dungeoneering.



These aren't unique issues and apply to regular campaigns too. I think they'll have to be handled the same way.

In a regular campaign, you're just asking the DM to play the monsters ignorantly, but in a dungeon keeper scenario you're asking the players to ignore information. You have the opposite problem too: if an invading hero dies to a death trap and no monsters are around to see it, how does it work? No one likes to watch the DM roll dice against himself. Do you just let the players have DM-like omniscience of everything in the dungeon, and narrate + roll the death trap right in front of them?

More thoughts later. I find this scenario interesting.

[TyGuy]

This is a really fun idea!

I propose the following way to play it out in three phases:
* Players make characters knowing they are the bosses of a dungeon they are about to design. Est ~20 Minutes
I do not have faith in the table to do character creation in just 20 minutes.

* Players co-ordinate with the DM to design a dungeon with the express purpose of repelling/murderizing an invading troop of goodies. The players should have some idea of what spell level to expect (is there Passwall? Is there Wish?). I'd give them a time limit to keep it from getting too nitpicky/perfect. Est ~30 Minutes.
Agreed, I'm thinking the players will be in the tier 2 CR/level range and the GM will be in the tier 3 CR/level range (at least for the most difficult wave/aspect) but with there being traps and home-field advantage for the players. I also think planning the dungeon should be a focus but should have a time limit to prevent the nitpicking. Maybe a little longer than 30 min if characters are created before the session or pre-generated.

(Also, encourage thematically appropriate but fluffy rooms just for verisimilitude. Eg Treasure room, Guard barracks, the kitchen, the loo, etc.)
A nice touch.

* A troop of "heroes" wanders in to kill the boss. Bring in LOTS of guys. The Players know what dungeons are about, and I'd bet they would have lots of great ideas to kill dungeoneers. You can scale the number to just beyond how difficult you expect it to be. That way the dungeon can be appropriately lethal without having 50% unused because the early traps got them all.
Play it like normal. The players can wander their dungeon doing things to taunt or kill the invaders, the Goodies overcome obstacles and swear vengeance on the evil players. Whatever number makes it through the dungeon fights any PCs who are waiting for them at the end (they might have killed the rogue already :smallsmile:)
Yeah, I'm still thinking about this one. To do waves or to do one elite group that can disarm traps (with good rolls) and heal. Or both...



A dungeon is often themed depending on who is the boss of it.
For the players, all working together (I assume) this means that they can design parts of it to suit their various strengths!
If a player is a fighter, they build a section of the dungeon to weed out ranged opponents. And adds obstructing walls to the final boss room so that there is not a lot of line of sight.
A rogue player might add secret passages so that they can learn the strengths and weaknesses of the invaders, as well as make some choice assassinations.
A spellcaster player might add chasms and deadly traps to force the use of higher level spell slots, and give themselves vantage points for spellcasting in the boss room.
etc etc.

The more characterization the characters have, the more characterization their dungeon will have. Someone who created a build (especially knowing that they would be dungeon keeping) will be much more invested in minions that complement their strengths, and designs that give them the edge.
Absolutely.



Challenges I forsee:
The invading heroes will need to be prepared with a cheat sheet of their useful abilities in advance. They don't need to be full PC classed character, but you will want enough to them that the players feel badass for taking out so many of what could have been them.
Id get a big page with 2 lines per invader. One with little boxes marking the abilities/stats they can use so that you can cross them out as they get used (thus showing the players that they are draining resources even if no-one dies), and one with some fluffy information about their characters and inter party relations. So that you can banter and give the Players something to use if they decide to get psychological with it.
Have at ~20 characters ready and then just bring into the dungeon whichever number will be the appropriate challenge.(if the dungeon sucks, players x2. If it is unambiguously nightmarish, players x 4+)
Make sure to visibly keep track of the hero resources used, health points lost, etc. But don't show the players the details.
I like it. Great ideas.


Some players might give themselves the role of "stands in boss room". That would be boring as you play the heroes through the dungeon, so encourage them to find roles for during the delve. Maybe they manage the minions (probably a good idea to limit minion autonomy in that case), Maybe they spy with scrying and learn what they can, Maybe they shoot the squishies through tiny slits in some walls. I agree


I don't think it is feasible to be absent during the planning phase, for ensure balance and to know the appropriate invading force for this dungeon. Thus it might be tricky to react to the dungeon naturally for a clump of diminishing adventurers. It's a good DMing challenge though, so I say go for it! Precisely. It makes me lean towards doing waves and making it known that the waves are already generated and it'll be VERY difficult to survive all waves. But kind of have the "go for the high score" mentality. Of course, the GM can always withhold a wave or two if he/she feels like throwing the players a bone, they'll never know...

[Man_Over_Game]

Rather than having a bunch of arbitrary values for purchasing minions and such, I'd give your players a spell budget and just modifying existing spells to fit what you're looking for. There's already summons and protective ward spells, use them.

For example, make Conjure spells cost no Concentration and last indefinitely, but costs the player 2 spell slots of the spell's level permanently. You can have up to 3 Alarms, 2 Unseen Servants or 1 Find Familiar casting a day, and they all are extended out to a 24 hour duration.

Your ultimate defense ability includes some option like Blade Barrier, Druid Grove, Guards and Wards, a Short Rest recharging Contingency, or some other variant ability.

[TyGuy]

I'd advise to use NPC statblocks rather than PC sheets, for the PCs and their goons.
For sure for the goons. I'm still on the fence for the PCs.

[TyGuy]

This answer to this isn't to split up, merely to spread out. Twelve monsters can support each other without necessarily entering Fireball Formation. Goblins with bows, giants with boulders, etc. Since you create the dungeon you can ensure sufficiently large areas. Even better if e.g. one of the twelve is a hobgoblin Devastator who supports using Counterspell. Anyway, that's why you'd want to have rules which encourage you *not* to do the tactically smart thing and concentrate your forces--it won't resemble normal dungeoneering.
Right, and choke points still get nullified by sneaking in through other points of entry. Or creating new points of entry ;)




In a regular campaign, you're just asking the DM to play the monsters ignorantly, but in a dungeon keeper scenario you're asking the players to ignore information. You have the opposite problem too: if an invading hero dies to a death trap and no monsters are around to see it, how does it work? No one likes to watch the DM roll dice against himself. Do you just let the players have DM-like omniscience of everything in the dungeon, and narrate + roll the death trap right in front of them?

More thoughts later. I find this scenario interesting.
I already thought of this issue. My idea is to plan and create a framework for this that addresses "behind the scenes" play and expedites it. For example, if the players are watching because they have peepholes or scrying methods I'd roll the adventurers' attempts to find or disarm traps, because I think it'd be fun for the players to watch in suspense. But like you said, if they aren't watching that, it'd be silly to sit and roll dice for a couple minutes. Thus I think it'd be clever to put a set passive damage on traps and maybe even a passive vulnerability/resistance to different categories of traps on the adventuring NPCs. So no rolling, just "ok, this arrow trap will do X damage to Y number of adventurers and cross off the appropriate hp.

[MaxWilson]

Rather than having a bunch of arbitrary values for purchasing minions and such, I'd give your players a spell budget and just modifying existing spells to fit what you're looking for. There's already summons and protective ward spells, use them.

Those spells are are known to be arbitrary and poorly balanced: Conjure Animals V and Conjure Elemental V are not remotely comparable for example in terms of deadliness. I'd say rather: use the encounter building rules in Xanathar's as a base, but find ways to force players to defend multiple objectives so they have to split their forces.

Maybe instead of direct control, they only get to give standing orders about patrol routes, and then the DM rolls dice to see when the invaders arrive and which patrol routes they cross. If there are no patrols in the area, the invaders get away scot free and the dungeon keepers lose a few resources (e.g. monster food/bribes) and the next invasion is therefore a little bit harder. But if they kill the invaders they get more resources to make the next invasion easier.

Basically I'm thinking of tower defense games for inspiration here.

[TyGuy]

Rather than having a bunch of arbitrary values for purchasing minions and such, I'd give your players a spell budget and just modifying existing spells to fit what you're looking for. There's already summons and protective ward spells, use them.

For example, make Conjure spells cost no Concentration and last indefinitely, but costs the player 2 spell slots of the spell's level permanently. You can have up to 3 Alarms, 2 Unseen Servants or 1 Find Familiar casting a day, and they all are extended out to a 24 hour duration.

Your ultimate defense ability includes some option like Blade Barrier, Druid Grove, Guards and Wards, a Short Rest recharging Contingency, or some other variant ability.
This method still uses a currency (spell slots) but at the cost of an elegant way to have prices for structure modification/improvements, and discounts. I plan to have the PC choice alter costs and potentially unlock options for minions, minion gear, traps, structure modifications, etc. I'm also playing with the idea of those discounts stacking and maybe the unlockable perks increasing with each additional PC of a type. Basically giving the players the option of strength in variety and covering multiple bases, or strength in specialization that increases in power the more homogeneous the group.

But I don't mind using spells and their level as a guiding star for calculating costs. That might help quite a bit.

[TyGuy]

Brainstorming Ideas

Lair Template Options
Stronghold
Catacomb
Volcano
Pyramid
Ruins

Modes
Achvillain: One player gets to be the BBEG while the other players are the lieutenants. Ok for some tables but probably won't work for every table.
Examples:

Red dragon PC with kobold and dragonborn minions. In a volcano lair.
Lich in a catacomb or pyramid with undead minions and lieutenants.

Fellowship: The hodgepodge option for when the players don't want to do the same character options. Works with any lair and the organization could be anything from a thieve's guild to an order of cultists.

Community: A hybrid between the two in which every player is on an equal level but they all belong to the same society.
Examples:

Yuan-ti in a pyramid
Goblinoids in a stronghold (fortress) or ruins
Orcs in a stronghold (fortress)
Beastmen/werefolk in a stronghold
Vampires in a Stronghold (mansion) or catacombs


The objective is to give the players the choice between variety and covering multiple angles or specialization and one set of strengths very well. The archvillain gives the players a big badass unit, but at the cost of variety and the risk of putting a lot of eggs in one basket. The fellowship gives a lot of variety but doesn't unlock more powerful options. And the community is a middle hybrid option with a variety and strength of units between the other two modes.

[Great Dragon]

Some very interesting Ideas, here.



But I don't mind using spells and their level as a guiding star for calculating costs. That might help quite a bit.

Having the Spell Slot Cost is an interesting Idea, and can work for all the Spellcasting BBEGs.
But, not a lot of Players really focus on Spellcasters these days. YmMV.

I say mix it up: Use above Spell Costs - or For Mundane BBEGs: Use the EXP Encounter Costs in the DMG and Xanathar's for Minions/Guards and the Treasure per Level {the BBEG's Level/CR sets the max cap; Individual Treasure for Minions, Horde Treasure for the BBEG} for the cost of Traps straight out of the these books.
Walls being equal to a CR 1 Trap and Choke Points being equal to a CR 3 Trap - or something.

Some Players will want to do both Slots and Mundane for their defenses,
and I'd set a straight 1 Spell slot equals the EXP/Treasure for a CR of the minimum Caster Level for that spell.
Ex: 1st Level Spell = 200 Exp with 100 gp.

You could also use Magic Item Creation rules for Magical Defenses/Traps.

DMG 129
CRAFTING MAGIC ITEMS
Item Rarity Creation Cost Minimum Level
Common 100 gp 3rd
Uncommon 500 gp 3rd
Rare 5,000 gp 6th
Very rare 50,000 gp 11th
Legendary 500,000 gp 17th
Setting both Mundane and Magical defenses at Game Creation does not cost time, but would cost the BBEG both time and money to add.

Permanent Magical Defenses and Traps could simply be the next Rarity Level, with Legendary costing double.
So that Permanent Druid's Grove might cost One Million gold!