Arcane Necromancers and Intelligent Undead

[Segev]

If you're a cleric, or a Necromancer in PF, or a Dread Necromancer, you have your rebuke/command pool to use on a select number of intelligent undead. If you're high enough level to create them, you also probably have control undead, the spell. The former is only available in PF to this thread's focus of arcane necromancers (and to dread necromancers), and the latter lasts for minutes at best.

Undead Leadership will be mostly bulked out with skeletons and zombies, with a few higher-level followers being lesser intelligent undead like ghouls. Maybe a wight or two.

Command undead does grant Charm-like influence over them: they will generally not attack you, and will treat anything you do as being in the best possible light they can contrive to give it. It lasts for days, and you can make Charisma checks to compel some actions. To a degree.

But is that enough? Is the opposed Charisma check enough to essentially make them into straight-up minions?

What other means are there for taking control of and maintaining control over intelligent undead? This is especially pertinent if you're able to cast create (greater) undead, which expressly grants no control. Liches iconically have lesser intelligent undead working for them, as do vampires. How do they manage this? Vampires can control spawn, of course, but their domination powers are useless against any other undead (which are immune to mind-affecting effects). Liches have no special power over the undead at all, and are typically arcane.

What tricks and stunts and tools can an arcane necromancer (or a particularly ambitious cleric, even, given the HD ceiling) use to keep a number of lieutenants in his undead army without risking betrayal or becoming a snack?

[The Kool]

Liches iconically have lesser intelligent undead working for them, as do vampires. How do they manage this?

Might, typically. Threats of destruction. "I brought you back into this world, I can take you right back out." Promises of power. "Do well, and you'll gain command of the entire Third Battalion of Skeleton Archers." Persuasiveness. "Work for me for a while, the benefits are great. Free dental! Guaranteed retirement!" How do tyrant kings have people who work for them? Similar methods.

[Hackulator]

Might, typically. Threats of destruction. "I brought you back into this world, I can take you right back out." Promises of power. "Do well, and you'll gain command of the entire Third Battalion of Skeleton Archers." Persuasiveness. "Work for me for a while, the benefits are great. Free dental! Guaranteed retirement!" How do tyrant kings have people who work for them? Similar methods.

All this, combined with the fact that they do it because the DM wants them too. Necromancers with lots of minions are classically something that are enemies, not PCs, so the minions stick around cause the DM wants you to have minions to fight. Trying to do it as a PC will runs into issues that you have brought up.

[Segev]

While I'm sure there's some of that, there is both the fact that undead are inherently evil (or at least, most of them are) and lack the drives that motivate most of the living (aversion to pain, hunger, etc)...and the fact that, if the necromancer were a capable tyrant lord, he wouldn't need to restrict himself to undead. One of the advantages of undead minions is the magical control.

For mindless ones, command undead is wonderful at this. If you've got Rebuke/Command, you can do some spawn-based control-trees.

But why would a necromancer go to the trouble of creating a ghoul, ghast, or stronger undead if he has no means of exerting control that he couldn't over any captured monster?

Are there really no hidden gems and tricks for this?

[Karl Aegis]

Master of Undeath (Complete Mage, 44) lets you control a big undead until you throw it away somewhere. Useful for having a devourer temporarily. Or if you wanted to animate a big zombie without it counting against your pool.

[The Kool]

Short term, you have the Control Undead spell. Long term, Command Undead actually isn't bad, if you get creatures who share your morality (many undead do). The charisma check is only needed if you're going against their nature. Commanding them to lead your army to pillage a village, they might go without any questions asked. Have them defend your mutual home, sure thing. The extensive duration is also fantastic, a higher level necromancer can keep, say, 3 slots filled with this spell at higher levels, and if they have a CL of 20 then they can keep 60 in service as long as they keep making the rounds every day. It really is disappointing that there is no Dominate Undead spell, though. If there are any items that allow this, I'm unaware of them, but a flexible DM might work with you to make one.

[Segev]

There's something to be said for command undead's "they interpret what you do in the best possible light" (or however it's phrased) clause, too: if you do wind up casting control undead on a subject of command undead, you can get them to rationalize it away as just something you had to do because they were recalcitrant and you're the boss.

[Eldariel]

You can always Persist and Extend Control Undead with some work. You can also PAO almost any non-lich non-incorporeal undead into non-undead and dominate/mindrape it as per normal. You can always Magic Jar into "taking direct control"-sorta approach. Just give them a deal they can't refuse. Etc.

[The Kool]

And if you are high level with access to Extend Spell (or even just a lesser rod of) it becomes easy as dirt to toss around Command Undead spells that last months.

[Segev]

You can always Persist and Extend Control Undead with some work. You can also PAO almost any non-lich non-incorporeal undead into non-undead and dominate/mindrape it as per normal. You can always Magic Jar into "taking direct control"-sorta approach. Just give them a deal they can't refuse. Etc.

How do you persist control undead? It's not got anything resembling the right targeting parameters.

Extend is sadly not all that hot on a spell that lasts minutes, not when talking minionmancy.

Extend works wonderfully on command undead, though, as The Kool noted.

[Eldariel]

How do you persist control undead? It's not got anything resembling the right targeting parameters.

Ocular Spell should work. Makes it single target fixed range. WRT Extend I meant you Extend the Persistent Control Undead for 48 hours.

[Efrate]

As a lich or vampire, you are undead so it should not be hard to talk to them. Most will not be able to pass your dr, plus if they are intelligent they should see benefits in having a powerful spellcaster ally. It is unlikely they will find better solo. Plus vampires liches are kind of hard to kill. So if you do not finish the job, you are coming back with a vengeance, and self preservation should keep outliers in line. Or just make a few examples.

For a fleshbag its harder, since many undead hate the living and you look like a tasty snack. However showing overwhelming power and having similar goals should keep most in line, just always keep your resting place safe, magnificent mansion is nice.

[Segev]

As a lich or vampire, you are undead so it should not be hard to talk to them. Most will not be able to pass your dr, plus if they are intelligent they should see benefits in having a powerful spellcaster ally. It is unlikely they will find better solo. Plus vampires liches are kind of hard to kill. So if you do not finish the job, you are coming back with a vengeance, and self preservation should keep outliers in line. Or just make a few examples.

For a fleshbag its harder, since many undead hate the living and you look like a tasty snack. However showing overwhelming power and having similar goals should keep most in line, just always keep your resting place safe, magnificent mansion is nice.

Once again, nothing about this applies specifically to undead minions. A lich or vampire can use exactly these tactics on the living to keep them obedient and loyal. Vampires even have domination powers they can bring to bear on creatures not immune to mind-affecting abilities.

Why create ghouls, ghasts, shadows, mummies, etc. that you have to expend as much effort controlling as you'd have to on similarly-CR'd living creatures that you don't need to expend the resources to create?

[Karl Aegis]

Once again, nothing about this applies specifically to undead minions. A lich or vampire can use exactly these tactics on the living to keep them obedient and loyal. Vampires even have domination powers they can bring to bear on creatures not immune to mind-affecting abilities.

Why create ghouls, ghasts, shadows, mummies, etc. that you have to expend as much effort controlling as you'd have to on similarly-CR'd living creatures that you don't need to expend the resources to create?

Undead are bad, so you wouldn't.

[Hackulator]

"Why would you ever do this thing for flavor or RP reasons that isn't mechanically optimal" is basically the battle cry of this board.

[Segev]

"Why would you ever do this thing for flavor or RP reasons that isn't mechanically optimal" is basically the battle cry of this board.

There's "not the most optimal thing ever," and then there's "blatantly stupid compared to other, easier options."


If you have a choice between buying sushi at a restaurant, and ordering raw fish shipped in for twice the price in an unrefrigerated car, so you can prepare it yourself, without training or the proper tools, would you do the latter for flavor/fluff/thematic purposes?

Casting create undead is not free, requires high level magic, and creates an dangerous creature which may well want to kill you and certainly has no inherent loyalty to you. You start with a better baseline of loyalty if you go to a tavern and hire some adventurers, let alone hirelings. And it will cost less.

[Eldariel]

There's "not the most optimal thing ever," and then there's "blatantly stupid compared to other, easier options."


If you have a choice between buying sushi at a restaurant, and ordering raw fish shipped in for twice the price in an unrefrigerated car, so you can prepare it yourself, without training or the proper tools, would you do the latter for flavor/fluff/thematic purposes?

Casting create undead is not free, requires high level magic, and creates an dangerous creature which may well want to kill you and certainly has no inherent loyalty to you. You start with a better baseline of loyalty if you go to a tavern and hire some adventurers, let alone hirelings. And it will cost less.

Well, you can control what you get with Create Undead. Treat it as a bomb; you may not control "the area it hits" but it can very easily create widespread destruction wherever it's cast (particularly all the spawn-producing undead types). And again, there may not be living underlings of certain type/power level available, but with Create Undead you can create something that you then proceed to cow into submission (or Command Undead and have 'em do stuff 'cause you're awesome). That said, yeah, Create Undead as a spell is a tad lackluster.

[Hackulator]

There's "not the most optimal thing ever," and then there's "blatantly stupid compared to other, easier options."


If you have a choice between buying sushi at a restaurant, and ordering raw fish shipped in for twice the price in an unrefrigerated car, so you can prepare it yourself, without training or the proper tools, would you do the latter for flavor/fluff/thematic purposes?

Casting create undead is not free, requires high level magic, and creates an dangerous creature which may well want to kill you and certainly has no inherent loyalty to you. You start with a better baseline of loyalty if you go to a tavern and hire some adventurers, let alone hirelings. And it will cost less.

Yeah thanks for proving my point!

[Segev]

Yeah thanks for proving my point!

You're welcome!

More seriously, though, you seem to be implying that it isn't stupid to do the described actions "for flavor." I'm asserting that it's stupid to the point that it's not just being sub-optimal, but rather actually hurting those who do it.

The implied level of optimization you're insinuating is akin to The Rock's workout and food schedule, where he spends his time, energy, and calorie budget on finely honing his body into a chisled masterpiece, and that the Board here as a whole tends to scoff at anybody who would eat ice cream and maybe not exercise that many hours every day with such precise care. You're not entirely wrong; we do have a culture of that.

I'm saying, however, that what I'm discussing here doesn't even approach "you have to follow the Rock's diet and exercise regimen or you're ruining your body!" levels of obsessiveness for optimization. It's more akin to the necromancer in question choosing to eat bowls of salt and tasteless (but empty calorie) bread, making himself much less healthy than he would be just eating normal food, and still not getting as much enjoyment benefit as he would if he ate ice cream for his unhealthy diet.

It might not kill him, but it's unhelpful to him in a number of ways, and while theme is nice, it's spending a lot of power to get a theme that you can't even exploit very well.

Since necromancy is also "evil," and thus something of a left hand path/shortcut to power, it makes even less sense that it'd be less effective than more "good" methods that won't get heroes breathing down your neck.

[Karl Aegis]

Master of Undeath, noted upthread, is what you're looking for. Control a created undead for Caster Level days. It doesn't count against your pool. It doesn't make undead any better, they just don't try to murder you for a few days or weeks.

[Segev]

Master of Undeath, noted upthread, is what you're looking for. Control a created undead for Caster Level days. It doesn't count against your pool. It doesn't make undead any better, they just don't try to murder you for a few days or weeks.

I'll need to look it up. Is it a spell or a feat? Sorry I missed it earlier!

[Deophaun]

Why create ghouls, ghasts, shadows, mummies, etc. that you have to expend as much effort controlling
Why are you bothering to control some of these? You create the shadow and leave. It then goes and creates more shadows, and soon you've killed a small village and created a distraction for the local PtB that you can take advantage of. If they get out of control, well, not your problem, because you never wanted control in the first place, and you're a necromancer: you have the spells to protect yourself from the swarm of strength-draining souls.

Necromancers control undead the same way pyromaniacs control fires.

[Hackulator]

You're welcome!

More seriously, though, you seem to be implying that it isn't stupid to do the described actions "for flavor." I'm asserting that it's stupid to the point that it's not just being sub-optimal, but rather actually hurting those who do it.

The implied level of optimization you're insinuating is akin to The Rock's workout and food schedule, where he spends his time, energy, and calorie budget on finely honing his body into a chisled masterpiece, and that the Board here as a whole tends to scoff at anybody who would eat ice cream and maybe not exercise that many hours every day with such precise care. You're not entirely wrong; we do have a culture of that.

I'm saying, however, that what I'm discussing here doesn't even approach "you have to follow the Rock's diet and exercise regimen or you're ruining your body!" levels of obsessiveness for optimization. It's more akin to the necromancer in question choosing to eat bowls of salt and tasteless (but empty calorie) bread, making himself much less healthy than he would be just eating normal food, and still not getting as much enjoyment benefit as he would if he ate ice cream for his unhealthy diet.

It might not kill him, but it's unhelpful to him in a number of ways, and while theme is nice, it's spending a lot of power to get a theme that you can't even exploit very well.

Since necromancy is also "evil," and thus something of a left hand path/shortcut to power, it makes even less sense that it'd be less effective than more "good" methods that won't get heroes breathing down your neck.

I mean, first off you are probably just objectively wrong about the relative cost, difficulty and danger of finding and securing competent/powerful living minions as opposed to spending 200-600 gold and a single random corpse on creating fairly powerful undead minions. There nothing in the rules which says you can't just Diplomance the undead you create. However, that's not even the point.

Only in a specific subset of games does every person have access to every possible class, feat and spell. Maybe the Necromancer is a Necromancer cause, I dunno, he was taught necromancy. Maybe he's a goddamn weirdo and likes undead. Maybe he wasn't allowed to buy the leadership feat. Maybe necromancy scrolls were the ones he found when he went looking for new spells. Maybe a million other reasons that are not purely mechanical. Maybe the player just think it becomes boring to always do the most mechanically optimal thing. Maybe being a master of undead is just cool to some people.

They don't have access to the D&D rulebooks in Faerun or any other world. I mean I'm sure there's some weird homebrew world where they do, but that's why the person who made that world probably isn't getting paid to write about fantasy worlds. Character creation and advancement as imagined here isn't an even slightly realistic process and story or flavor is pretty much an afterthought.

In the end the answer is the majority of people don't care about optimization to the extent that this forum does. Many people who would be called powergamers in their home games would still think the people here were crazy munchkins.

[Segev]

Master of Undeath, noted upthread, is what you're looking for. Control a created undead for Caster Level days. It doesn't count against your pool. It doesn't make undead any better, they just don't try to murder you for a few days or weeks.


I'll need to look it up. Is it a spell or a feat? Sorry I missed it earlier!

Having looked it up, it's ... I remember reading it, years ago, and being underwhelmed. I still am, a bit, but not as much as before. I had never interpreted the choice to not put it under your normal control cap as something that didn't require you to actually be ABLE to put it under your control cap before. It does, however, not say you can only use this on undead which would fall into that category. It would definitely let you control a single intelligent undead you created! For a fortnite or so, at least.

Still doesn't bring more than one under control. I guess it's fortunate that there's the PF version of Necromancer which gets rebuke/command.

But thanks! I had completely forgotten about that one until you recommended it and I looked it up; that IS an option.

I wonder if you could finagle it with spawn-making undead such that you can imprison the master before your control runs out, after forcing it to order its spawn to obey you, so it can't rescind that order but remains extant enough that its control remains.

[The Kool]

Consider the Deathwalker variant wizard, might be helpful to you. They gain the rebuke ability eventually.

[Segev]

Consider the Deathwalker variant wizard, might be helpful to you. They gain the rebuke ability eventually.

Where's that printed?

[The Kool]

Dragon #312, apparently, but I pulled it off one of the more reliable archives I use. Had to look up where it was printed.