[3.5] Pixie Sleep Arrows

[Thurbane]

So, this came up in the LA-assignemnt thread while discussing the Thorn (MM3).


To be honest, as with the Pixie version, the Sleep Arrow ability is a bit poorly defined. How many arrows do you get? Do they spawn from thin air? Does any mundane arrow you pick up automatically gain the sleep ability? Can you hand them off to party members to use?

If you can hand them off to others to use, then the Thorn deserves LA +/-0* IMHO.

Not sure if it changed in 3.5, but in Savage Species, under the Pixie racial class, it says you need to craft the arrows:


...unless I'm missing something, no further info is given about exactly how to craft these arrows or costs involved.

Was any of this touched on during the Pixie discussion?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532012-The-LA-assignment-thread-III-Now-in-HD!&p=22346543&viewfull=1#post22346543



Since Pixies are a playable race, how do you handle their arrows in a game?

Cheers - T

[ericgrau]

So, this came up in the LA-assignemnt thread while discussing the Thorn (MM3).



Since Pixies are a playable race, how do you handle their arrows in a game?

Cheers - T



Special Attacks (see above): Spell-like abilities.



Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, special arrows

Pixie characters don't get special arrows by default.

They seem like equipment that pixies have access to, especially based on the savage species statement. So there must be a way for pixie society to craft or obtain them. Exactly how, I don't know. Since pixies only "sometimes" use the arrows the cost might not be trivial. In any case they aren't part of pixie characters, so I wouldn't worry about them for LA purposes. And perhaps even for PCs in general you could omit them entirely and move on. Maybe the PC would be allowed to buy them or learn how to craft them (perhaps together with the crafting feat) from pixie civilization if he's still in good standing? But this is all outside of what you strictly get as a pixie PC.

The weirdest part is that the arrows are Ex. Are these "nonmagical" arrows that channel a pixie's inner abilities? Or are they magical arrows and the ability to use them is Ex?

[Crake]

According to savage species the Ex ability of the arrows is their ability to craft the arrows, the arrows themselves are still magic items and follow the rules for them as such. Any pixie can craft the arrows without any special feats, though they can be crafted normally by anyone else, if they meet the crafting requirements laid out in the magic items section of savage species (page 51 to be exact).

What this means for a player character is that the pixie can make as many special arrows as they want without any crafting prerequisites being met, but they don't get any arrows for free, and any arrows they want come out of their wbl/xp as normal.

[skunk3]

I'm playing a Pixie right now and I have no idea how the special arrows work. I also don't understand how it gives a DC of 15 for them but it also says that the save is CHA based and that you get a +2 racial bonus. So is the save DC of 15 just for a starter Pixie or does the save go up? How exactly is it calculated?

As far as what the arrow actually consists of, I've always just imagined it being some intangible thing to be honest but fired like any mundane arrow.

[Thurbane]

Any pixie can craft the arrows without any special feats, though they can be crafted normally by anyone else, if they meet the crafting requirements laid out in the magic items section of savage species (page 51 to be exact).

That's the piece of the puzzle I was missing! Thank you.

Question about the Memory Loss arrows:


The subject retains skills, languages, and class abilities but forgets everything else...

Does the subject lose use of feats? Assuming that the feats not gained as class abilities (i.e. normal feats at 1, 3, 6 etc.).

[Remuko]

I'm playing a Pixie right now and I have no idea how the special arrows work. I also don't understand how it gives a DC of 15 for them but it also says that the save is CHA based and that you get a +2 racial bonus. So is the save DC of 15 just for a starter Pixie or does the save go up? How exactly is it calculated?

As far as what the arrow actually consists of, I've always just imagined it being some intangible thing to be honest but fired like any mundane arrow.

DC should be 10 + 1/2 level + cha bonus. Look at the base pixie. subtract the +2 racial bonus. compare their cha mod to whats left. it should line up

[Crake]

DC should be 10 + 1/2 level + cha bonus. Look at the base pixie. subtract the +2 racial bonus. compare their cha mod to whats left. it should line up

According to savage species' magic item entry it's a flat DC15, and won't scale.

[skunk3]

According to savage species' magic item entry it's a flat DC15, and won't scale.
What is the page number? I can't find it. It would be a shame if it doesn't scale because it would make the arrows kinda worthless later on.

[Crake]

What is the page number? I can't find it. It would be a shame if it doesn't scale because it would make the arrows kinda worthless later on.

I mentioned the page earlier, but it's page 51, under "Pixie Arrows"

[skunk3]

I mentioned the page earlier, but it's page 51, under "Pixie Arrows"

Hmm. My interpretation of reading this is that the Pixie arrows aren't exclusively limited to Pixies. (One doesn't even necessarily need to be a Pixie to craft them, either!) It doesn't say anything in the text about them being exclusive. To me it seems like if anyone BUT a Pixie uses one of these arrows the DC is 15 but when shot by a Pixie it becomes a lot more potent with the Pixie's CHA mod taken into account in addition to a +2 bonus. Right above Pixie Arrows is another weapon called "Orc Razor" that specifically talks about how it can be used by anyone but when wielded by someone with Orc blood you get bonuses.

If it is calculated 10 + CHA mod + 1/2 class levels + 2 racial bonus that would be sweet because that'd put my character at a 27 for the save DC. :D

[ericgrau]

I mentioned the page earlier, but it's page 51, under "Pixie Arrows"

The pixie monster entry says the save DC is cha based though. I think it would be the primary source for this, and I don't think Savage Species is trying to make an exception. Looks more like an oversight. Unless Savage Species addresses the difference?



Does the subject lose use of feats? Assuming that the feats not gained as class abilities (i.e. normal feats at 1, 3, 6 etc.).
At first I'm tempted to say RAW yes, RAI no. Then I remember that the normal feats at 1, 3, 6, etc. are granted by HD, and HD is granted by class levels. So the normal feats are technically class abilities. At least as much as HP and BAB are.

And if one of your class bonus feats has a normal feat as a pre-requisite, it gets a bit dysfunction. Also doesn't make much sense, hence the RAI comment even before noticing the HD thing.

Oddly enough you'd still forget memory based racial abilities. So elves would lose longsword proficiency. This is probably against RAI too, but could technically be what the rule says.

[Crake]

Hmm. My interpretation of reading this is that the Pixie arrows aren't exclusively limited to Pixies. (One doesn't even necessarily need to be a Pixie to craft them, either!) It doesn't say anything in the text about them being exclusive.

You are correct there, anyone can make them if they meet the prerequisites. A pixie has the unique ability to make them without having to meet any of the prerequisites, not even needing to get craft arms and armor.


To me it seems like if anyone BUT a Pixie uses one of these arrows the DC is 15 but when shot by a Pixie it becomes a lot more potent with the Pixie's CHA mod taken into account in addition to a +2 bonus. Right above Pixie Arrows is another weapon called "Orc Razor" that specifically talks about how it can be used by anyone but when wielded by someone with Orc blood you get bonuses.

That would not seem to be the case. The pixie special ability is noted in savage species as being the ability to craft the arrows, which are a specific magic item with a set DC, which is 15. Nothing in the pixie's special ability, nor the entry for the arrows notes anything about the DC being different when wielded by a more powerful pixie.

[QUOTE=ericgrau;23757637]The pixie monster entry says the save DC is cha based though. I think it would be the primary source for this, and I don't think Savage Species is trying to make an exception. Looks more like an oversight. Unless Savage Species addresses the difference?

Considering that the pixie arrows are noted as magic items, and magic items have no precedence, beyond staves, of having scaling DCs, I think it's safe to say that the DC is a set DC.

There's really only 2 interpretations:
1) The pixie's special ability is the arrows themselves, in which case they're apparently non-magical, Ex special abilities and will have a scaling DC
or
2) The pixie's special ability is to make the arrows, which is itself non-magical, but the arrows themselves are specific magic weapons, with a set DC that doesn't scale.

Savage species' information makes it quite clear that it's the latter, but the thing is, if you're going to interpret it in a way that the DC scales, then you also need to interpret the arrows as non-magical, since for it to scale, it must be the Ex special ability that's setting the DC, and accept all the ramifications that accompany that. That's gonna be a hard sell to any DM I know.

[skunk3]

Normally I would completely agree with you but the part that trips me up is the fact that it says that the DC is CHA based and includes a +2 racial bonus. Why would it say that if it doesn't scale, and where would the DC of 15 come from? The sample Pixie in the stat block has a CHA of 16, which is +3. It has no class levels. It gets a +2 racial bonus. That would make a DC of 15. However, with my current character (in the gestalt game I'm playing in) I am level 16 and have a CHA bonus of +7. FWIW, I am seeing the arrows listed as an EX ability. In Savage Species it doesn't state that it's an EX ability but on the SRD page it does: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Pixie

I am assuming that the information contained in that link is more up-to-date than that in the book, especially since Polymorph is listed as a greater power in SS but it is noted as being removed on the SRD page. Being able to use Otto's Irresistable Dance 1x/day is still listed as a power usable by Pixies but it brings the LA up from +4 to +6.

Anyhow, my interpretation of all of this is as I said before:

-anyone can craft Pixie arrows if they have the requisite feat
-Pixies can make such arrows without needing the feat
-A non-Pixie using a Pixie arrow sees a flat DC15 from such an attack
-A Pixie using a Pixie arrow sees a scaling DC from such an attack due to it specifically stating that it is an EX ability that is CHA-based and includes a +2 racial bonus

I'm not nearly the rules expert that many on this forum are so I could be totally wrong but that's what seems correct to me.

[Efrate]

3.5 mm is a newer source than savage species which is 3.0. I am afb but d20srd doesn't mention anything about pixies getting the arrows or anything. The special attacks line under playing a pixie character just mentions their spell-like abilities.

[Telonius]

Yeah, the only way I'm seeing them to get the DC to add up to 15 is to do one of two things. Either treat the DC 15 as the specific thing that trumps the general rule of how you determine DC; or treat the Sleep arrows' effect as a Supernatural ability, while keeping the ability to make the arrows an Extraordinary ability; making the difficulty class HD-dependent. The Savage Species entry suggests that former is the one intended.

[Telonius]

3.5 mm is a newer source than savage species which is 3.0. I am afb but d20srd doesn't mention anything about pixies getting the arrows or anything. The special attacks line under playing a pixie character just mentions their spell-like abilities.

Link here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie):


Special Arrows (Ex)
Pixies sometimes employ arrows that deal no damage but can erase memory or put a creature to sleep.

Memory Loss
An opponent struck by this arrow must succeed on a DC 15 Will save or lose all memory. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus. The subject retains skills, languages, and class abilities but forgets everything else until he or she receives a heal spell or memory restoration with limited wish, wish, or miracle.

Sleep
Any opponent struck by this arrow, regardless of Hit Dice, must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be affected as though by a sleep spell. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.


For what it's worth, this is almost identical to the wording in the 3.0 entry (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) (site has them on .rtf files):


Special Arrows (Ex): Pixies sometimes employ arrows that deal no damage but can erase memory or put a creature to sleep.
Memory Loss: An opponent struck by the arrow must succeed at a Will save (DC 15) or lose all memory. The subject retains skills, languages, and class abilities but forgets everything else until he or she receives a heal spell or memory restoration with limited wish, wish, or miracle.
Sleep: Any opponent struck by the arrow, regardless of Hit Dice, must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 15) or be affected as though by a sleep spell.

[Efrate]

Yes, but if you look under pixie characters at the bottom of the entry, under the special attacks gained it only mentions the slas. Nothing about the arrows. Sorry if I was unclear.

[skunk3]

Yes, but if you look under pixie characters at the bottom of the entry, under the special attacks gained it only mentions the slas. Nothing about the arrows. Sorry if I was unclear.

I don't understand what you're saying. It clearly lists the arrows as EX abilities they have, right under the SLAs.

edit: I do see what you're saying now. It doesn't list the arrows for Pixies as characters. Does this mean that only NPC Pixies get to use them?

[Crake]

I don't understand what you're saying. It clearly lists the arrows as EX abilities they have, right under the SLAs.

That is listed for pixie NPCs, but the "Pixies as characters" section makes no mention of them getting the pixie arrows as an ability, it simply says



Special Attacks (see above): Spell-like abilities.
Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/cold iron, greater invisibility, spell resistance equal to 15 + class levels.

[skunk3]

That is listed for pixie NPCs, but the "Pixies as characters" section makes no mention of them getting the pixie arrows as an ability, it simply says

Yep I noticed that after he pointed it out! Oh well! Even without the arrows Pixies (as characters) are quite potent.

[ericgrau]

Considering that the pixie arrows are noted as magic items, and magic items have no precedence, beyond staves, of having scaling DCs, I think it's safe to say that the DC is a set DC.

There's really only 2 interpretations:
1) The pixie's special ability is the arrows themselves, in which case they're apparently non-magical, Ex special abilities and will have a scaling DC
or
2) The pixie's special ability is to make the arrows, which is itself non-magical, but the arrows themselves are specific magic weapons, with a set DC that doesn't scale.

Or the arrows are magic items that scale with the user's cha. It's unusual, especially for a core item. Possibly it's a copy paste oversight from other monsters. The Savage Species way could be a fix, but I wish they'd just state that if so. I do like the Savage Species way better.

Is there any clear language that would make Savage Species take priority. Some wording that makes it specific trumping general perhaps? I think DMs and players should run it that way regardless, but it would be kind of nice if this was by the book and not an author screwup. But an author screwup wouldn't surprise me.

Normally I'm 110% in favor of RAI over RAW too. Heck, I think true RAW is impossible. But finding the author's intent via evidence and context is one thing, and then straight up guessing is another.

[Thurbane]

Question about the Memory Loss arrows:


The subject retains skills, languages, and class abilities but forgets everything else...

Does the subject lose use of feats? Assuming that the feats not gained as class abilities (i.e. normal feats at 1, 3, 6 etc.).

Any thoughts on this aspect?


Anyhow, my interpretation of all of this is as I said before:

-anyone can craft Pixie arrows if they have the requisite feat
-Pixies can make such arrows without needing the feat
-A non-Pixie using a Pixie arrow sees a flat DC15 from such an attack
-A Pixie using a Pixie arrow sees a scaling DC from such an attack due to it specifically stating that it is an EX ability that is CHA-based and includes a +2 racial bonus

I'm not nearly the rules expert that many on this forum are so I could be totally wrong but that's what seems correct to me.

That would seem to be the common sense approach, to me.

[Telonius]

Does the subject lose use of feats? Assuming that the feats not gained as class abilities (i.e. normal feats at 1, 3, 6 etc.).

This is going to be a straight-up guess about intent, but I think this is playing around with all sorts of old "memory loss" tropes in fairy tales. A person completely loses self-identity and conscious memories of their own history. They don't go back to factory defaults; they still know how to walk, talk, dress themselves, and so on. But they wouldn't remember their parents teaching them any of that. They know what a wedding ring is, but not that their spouse gave it to them. I think the general idea is that they remember the how; but not the who, what, where, or why.

Basically, they act like a character in a bad 80s movie or cartoon who's been clunked on the head and lost their memory.

On that basis I'd say that they'd retain their feats. They haven't forgotten how to swing a sword or cast a spell better, they just don't know how they know it. (Possibly they might not know that they know it).

[liquidformat]

Or the arrows are magic items that scale with the user's cha. It's unusual, especially for a core item. Possibly it's a copy paste oversight from other monsters. The Savage Species way could be a fix, but I wish they'd just state that if so. I do like the Savage Species way better.

Is there any clear language that would make Savage Species take priority. Some wording that makes it specific trumping general perhaps? I think DMs and players should run it that way regardless, but it would be kind of nice if this was by the book and not an author screwup. But an author screwup wouldn't surprise me.

Normally I'm 110% in favor of RAI over RAW too. Heck, I think true RAW is impossible. But finding the author's intent via evidence and context is one thing, and then straight up guessing is another.

Savage Species is 3.0, it was borderline 3.5 but still 3.0, so based on the 3.0 version of pixie linked in a previous post the savage species version of the pixie arrows works just fine as the 3.0 pixie just gave a straight 15 DC with no clarification of how that number was reached.

In this case the SRD version is the only true 3.5 source that actually covers pixies and from the text we know special arrows are an ex ability and their are two types of them. We also know how the 15 DC is broken down (10+Cha mod+2 Racial bonus). What we don't know is if the EX special Arrow ability scales with HD/RHD, nor how the arrows are made, or if they can be used by non-pixies. We also know this ability seemingly is not allowed by players.

I think it would be fine to use the Savage Species ruling that the EX ability allows the pixie to make the arrows and the arrows though this ability would have to be updated based on the new understanding of where the save dc comes from. We already have precedence for creating items with scaling effects like greater magic fang +1 potion vs greater magic fang +2 potion so I don't think it is unreasonable for the pixie's to be able to do so.

[Thurbane]

This is going to be a straight-up guess about intent, but I think this is playing around with all sorts of old "memory loss" tropes in fairy tales. A person completely loses self-identity and conscious memories of their own history. They don't go back to factory defaults; they still know how to walk, talk, dress themselves, and so on. But they wouldn't remember their parents teaching them any of that. They know what a wedding ring is, but not that their spouse gave it to them. I think the general idea is that they remember the how; but not the who, what, where, or why.

Basically, they act like a character in a bad 80s movie or cartoon who's been clunked on the head and lost their memory.

On that basis I'd say that they'd retain their feats. They haven't forgotten how to swing a sword or cast a spell better, they just don't know how they know it. (Possibly they might not know that they know it).

You're probably right. For contrast, the breath weapon of the Maelephant gives total amnesia:


Memory loss suppresses all of a creature’s ranks in its skills and its feats, and it prevents the use of any class abilities (including spellcasting). Currently prepared spells are not lost; they are simply not accessible to be cast. Racial abilities are retained. Additionally, the victim no longer knows who its friends and enemies are, doesn’t remember its past, and can’t even remember its name. The victim can create new memories, but each time it sleeps or rests, any new memories it has created vanish.

[ericgrau]

Savage Species is 3.0, it was borderline 3.5 but still 3.0, so based on the 3.0 version of pixie linked in a previous post the savage species version of the pixie arrows works just fine as the 3.0 pixie just gave a straight 15 DC with no clarification of how that number was reached.

In this case the SRD version is the only true 3.5 source that actually covers pixies and from the text we know special arrows are an ex ability and their are two types of them. We also know how the 15 DC is broken down (10+Cha mod+2 Racial bonus). What we don't know is if the EX special Arrow ability scales with HD/RHD, nor how the arrows are made, or if they can be used by non-pixies. We also know this ability seemingly is not allowed by players.

I think it would be fine to use the Savage Species ruling that the EX ability allows the pixie to make the arrows and the arrows though this ability would have to be updated based on the new understanding of where the save dc comes from. We already have precedence for creating items with scaling effects like greater magic fang +1 potion vs greater magic fang +2 potion so I don't think it is unreasonable for the pixie's to be able to do so.

Were many other monster abilities updated with similar language at the same time? Perhaps it fell victim to a rushed update.

The problem with combining the two is that you may have to up the Savage Species arrow price because scaling DC is superior. Which is kind of lousy for the 98% of pixies that don't benefit from scaling. And many PCs for that matter might prefer weaker arrows at a lower price, and not trying for a cha focused build. If OTOH we leave the price low, a cha focus build may do nothing but arrow spam SoLs. Which is both broken and boring. And the DM sending mostly immune foes against the party isn't a practical answer. Too binary difficulty. Either many foes become trivial or the DM sends so many immune foes that it's worse than a ban: negating a character concept while still making the PC continue to play it. Also all this doesn't happen until high level. Either the arrows are too expensive for low level or this issue comes online at high level (but not low level).

[liquidformat]

Were many other monster abilities updated with similar language at the same time? Perhaps it fell victim to a rushed update.

The problem with combining the two is that you may have to up the Savage Species arrow price because scaling DC is superior. Which is kind of lousy for the 98% of pixies that don't benefit from scaling. And many PCs for that matter might prefer weaker arrows at a lower price, and not trying for a cha focused build. If OTOH we leave the price low, a cha focus build may do nothing but arrow spam SoLs. Which is both broken and boring. And the DM sending mostly immune foes against the party isn't a practical answer. Too binary difficulty. Either many foes become trivial or the DM sends so many immune foes that it's worse than a ban: negating a character concept while still making the PC continue to play it. Also all this doesn't happen until high level. Either the arrows are too expensive for low level or this issue comes online at high level (but not low level).

Please note ability is removed from pc goody bag, so by 3.5 RAW the answer is that this is only available on DM side of the table which removes 99% of the problem.

[ericgrau]

Please note ability is removed from pc goody bag, so by 3.5 RAW the answer is that this is only available on DM side of the table which removes 99% of the problem.

A flat DC of 15 for any arrows made by PCs is totally the answer. For monsters it's not really a problem either way. I'm just a little curious if we're forced to homebrew it or not. Yeah the effective soft-ban on the arrows works too. So we don't need homebrew to avoid breaking the system, just to make the arrows available if anything.

Yeah I know a lot of people hate non-scaling DCs but for non-scaling costs or even +X costs they actually work out nicely. It's no different than +1d6 damage going "obsolete" as monster HP goes up. You can always spam more arrows as you get richer and foes can always roll 1s. i.e., it still helps and it remains fair for the cost. Scaling OTOH has dysfunctions mentioned.

[liquidformat]

well since the arrows are already explained in Savage Species and as far as I can tell no adjustments need to be made to let them function in 3.5 you can directly use them if your dm is ok with 3.0 being used as long as there is no updated 3.5 version. The only home brewing needed would be for higher dc options, and honestly you could just up the cost going by +5 DC each time pretty easily without much home brew effort.

[ericgrau]

well since the arrows are already explained in Savage Species and as far as I can tell no adjustments need to be made to let them function in 3.5 you can directly use them if your dm is ok with 3.0 being used as long as there is no updated 3.5 version. The only home brewing needed would be for higher dc options, and honestly you could just up the cost going by +5 DC each time pretty easily without much home brew effort.

I suppose that's true. So the only dysfunction is that PCs and monsters get different version of the arrows? And perhaps a soft ban on top of that.

[liquidformat]

I suppose that's true. So the only dysfunction is that PCs and monsters get different version of the arrows? And perhaps a soft ban on top of that.

I would say it is more than all PCs have access to a magic item called 'pixie's sleep arrows' and 'pixie's memory loss arrows' that function similarly to true pixie special arrow extraordinary ability.