OOTS #1158 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

I'm still tentatively putting my money on a kick-ass-take-names victory lap for Durkon. I agree it does seem to be taking up a bit too much set-up time if it was just going to be that, so I'll side-bet on Hilgya character development. No, I don't care to speculate what direction the development will take, but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution.

Grey Wolf

It seems a bit long, but thinking of it in terms of the overall book, so far the setup to the situation at the Council of Clans has been four single pages, with a couple of splash panels. Probably not going to come across as very long in the final work, although that of course remains to be seen.

[Tuwr]

I might have misunderstood the description of Gate in 3.5, but it seems to me that the Nightcrawler can be ordered to do an "immediate task" or bargained with to perform a service to the caster. There is no ongoing battle so the immediate task doesn't seem to apply. Unless it is "guard this area" or something, but in any case that only applies for 1 round/level anyway.

So the monster will be able to do whatever it pleases, including returning to its own dimension. How can the bad guys be sure that it is pointed in the direction of the Order?

Or is the question moot because it wants to do whatever Hel wants it to do anyway?

[Mad Humanist]

I'm still tentatively putting my money on a kick-ass-take-names victory lap for Durkon. I agree it does seem to be taking up a bit too much set-up time if it was just going to be that, so I'll side-bet on Hilgya character development. No, I don't care to speculate what direction the development will take, but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution.

Grey Wolf

I definitely feel a battle coming on. I know we've had the odd battle in this book already, but surely you don't gate in a beast like that and forget to make it attack.

[Resileaf]

I might have misunderstood the description of Gate in 3.5, but it seems to me that the Nightcrawler can be ordered to do an "immediate task" or bargained with to perform a service to the caster. There is no ongoing battle so the immediate task doesn't seem to apply. Unless it is "guard this area" or something, but in any case that only applies for 1 round/level anyway.

So the monster will be able to do whatever it pleases, including returning to its own dimension. How can the bad guys be sure that it is pointed in the direction of the Order?

Or is the question moot because it wants to do whatever Hel wants it to do anyway?

I imagine that the reason it was directly sent by Hel means that it is loyal to her.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sorry, I'm still a bit at sea as to how this fits with my comment. It only "fits" as a play on words, using "resolution" as the pivot towards the reference to a "new year's resolution." The "I'll get my coat" is a line I see used a lot when someone tells a groaner of a pun/joke, and offers to leave (or even, leave before the "hook" comes out and pulls them off stage). It's also a signal/flag that someone was trying to make a joke. The frog is now dissected. :smallsmile:

Right - I won't quit my day job.

[Fish]

I imagine that the reason it was directly sent by Hel means that it is loyal to her.
Or as loyal and obedient as any of Hel's other minions, which is to say, not much on average.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or as loyal and obedient as any of Hel's other minions, which is to say, not much on average.
Hel's minions have been exceptionally loyal and obedient so far (Durkon's vampire was never ordered not to engage the Order of the Stick, but given discretion). Her allies, particularly Hermod, have not been reliable.

[Peelee]

It only "fits" as a play on words, using "resolution" as the pivot towards the reference to a "new year's resolution." The "I'll get my coat" is a line I see used a lot when someone tells a groaner of a pun/joke, and offers to leave (or even, leave before the "hook" comes out and pulls them off stage). It's also a signal/flag that someone was trying to make a joke. The frog is now dissected. :smallsmile:

Right - I won't quit my day job.

Wait, why was the frog wearing a coat? I'd take my coat, but the frog has it, apparently.

[zimmerwald1915]

Wait, why was the frog wearing a coat?
To get to the other side!

[Peelee]

To get to the other side!

https://media1.tenor.com/images/8cea5c852c179c9def48cdf752580127/tenor.gif?itemid=9996288

[Kish]

I might have misunderstood the description of Gate in 3.5, but it seems to me that the Nightcrawler can be ordered to do an "immediate task" or bargained with to perform a service to the caster. There is no ongoing battle so the immediate task doesn't seem to apply. Unless it is "guard this area" or something, but in any case that only applies for 1 round/level anyway.

So the monster will be able to do whatever it pleases, including returning to its own dimension. How can the bad guys be sure that it is pointed in the direction of the Order?

Or is the question moot because it wants to do whatever Hel wants it to do anyway?
Based on the depiction of events in the strip, I'm reading it as casting the Planar Travel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) version of Gate to let Hel send through whatever she chooses (subject to her being under the same divine restriction against coming down and personally smiting her enemies that Thor is, of course...and Thrym being under the same restriction...); she chose to send a nightcrawler through.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Anyway, what's a "Gatespender"?
I don't get the joke/reference.

It's a pun on 'gatekeeper'. Gontor was keeping a scroll of Gate, and now he's spending the Gate scroll.

[Resileaf]

It's a pun on 'gatekeeper'. Gontor was keeping a scroll of Gate, and now he's spending the Gate scroll.

This makes sense and I'm ashamed I did not figure it out.

[Peelee]

Anyway, what's a "Gatespender"?
I don't get the joke/reference.

It's the opposite of "Gatekeeper"

It's a pun on 'gatekeeper'. Gontor was keeping a scroll of Gate, and now he's spending the Gate scroll.

Mucho appreciado. I also didn't get it, though in hindsight it's obvious.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Mucho appreciado.

I could swear you are doing this just to make my eyes bleed.
There is no double p in Spanish, and it would be "muy"
Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I could swear you are doing this just to make my eyes bleed.

Grey Wolf

What? Of course not! It's to make my wife's eyes bleed (she got her Bachelor's in Spanish).

I'm also a huge fan of muy importe. I think at this point she's resigned herself to living in the barren linguistic wasteland that is my Spanish use.

Also, are you implying that "apreciado" is actually a word, and means anything close to what I'm intending? My knowledge of Spanish is pretty much limited to being able to ask for food, water, and where the bathroom is.

[Tuwr]

I imagine that the reason it was directly sent by Hel means that it is loyal to her.

I am an idiot. I thought it was called by Gontor, not sent by Hel. Thanks. Maybe I should start looking at the pictures?

(Although the way divine magic works it might not have been a lot of difference anyway...)

[Rogar Demonblud]

What? Of course not! It's to make my wife's eyes bleed (she got her Bachelor's in Spanish).

I'm also a huge fan of muy importe. I think at this point she's resigned herself to living in the barren linguistic wasteland that is my Spanish use.

Also, are you implying that "apreciado" is actually a word, and means anything close to what I'm intending? My knowledge of Spanish is pretty much limited to being able to ask for food, water, and where the bathroom is.

You should also remember "Advocato, por favor", since that gets you a lawyer and is generally a good thing to know to say.

[Resileaf]

I am an idiot. I thought it was called by Gontor, not sent by Hel. Thanks. Maybe I should start looking at the pictures?

(Although the way divine magic works it might not have been a lot of difference anyway...)

Basically, it was both called by Gonthor and sent by Hel. It was a mutual decision.

[Peelee]

You should also remember "Advocato, por favor", since that gets you a lawyer and is generally a good thing to know to say.

On the one hand, I can see an etymological base for that. On the other hand, I'm afraid that would get me an avocado.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, are you implying that "apreciado" is actually a word, and means anything close to what I'm intending?

It feels a bit archaic (whether it actually is or not, I can't say), but as long as you don't put the adjective rather than the adverb in front, it's not wrong, just not in use.


muy importe.

"Advocato, por favor"
To quote Stephen Fry, You are all rotters, and I hate you.


On the one hand, I can see an etymological base for that. On the other hand, I'm afraid that would get me an avocado.
No, because that'd be "aguacate", and the word for lawyer is "abogado"

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

On the one hand, I can see an etymological base for that. On the other hand, I'm afraid that would get me an avocado.

I actually checked Google Translate to see if it would be a viable joke, and turns out avocado translates to aguacate, so you're safe!

You'll also be happy to know that in french, lawyer and avocado are spelled the same way: avocat (the t is silent).

[NoHaxJustPi]

A friendly reminder that this is not a thread about linguistics, but rather about OOTS 1158.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Eh, linguistics is more fun than some of our other thread drift techniques.

Thanks for the correction on the spelling, GW.

[Ghosty]

Right? This book more than any is going to be worth the reread when its all over.

Its raising the tension i guess, not the stakes. Weve neen winding down, getting some good post fight punchlines and wrap up, and now were building up for another big action set piece. Which seems inconsistent to the expected narrative outcome of durkons cleanup victory lap.

I think this might only work if we end on a cliff hanger into the next book. If something incredibly unexpected happens here, and dramatically changes the narrative for the future story.

Im still pretty hopeful overall, because i think the endings, in general, are the strongest parts of each book.

I've only skimmed the thread, but I agree with the posts that suggest that the pacing of this feels a bit off. We already experienced what feels like the main climax, (And it was awesome!), with Durkon's and Durkon's mother's story. So, after that, it just doesn't feel like the Order is in any actual jeopardy here, even if they are. That's probably because of the pacing, I admit. Really I just want this side-fight to end already, so we can get to figuring out what Hilgya, Kudzu, Sigdi, the Mechane's crew, are all going to next vis a vis Kraggor's Gate, RedCloak, and what happened with Serini. The characters and situations that we've spent this entire book, and the past few, caring about.

However, assuming this fight isn't a pushover and has some meaning for the plot as a whole, my thought is: what happens if the Exarch actually can pull off Hel's plan and get the Dwarves to vote to end the world? Assuming that wouldn't be the end of the entire story---The Giant doesn't strike me as a G.R.R. Martin of the first few ASOIAF books-type, but it would certainly be a giant cliffhanger to set up the 7th book---where do we think the narrative would go from there? How could something that momentous be undone for the 7th book?

[Carl]

Ah, good, the main combatants will be able to shine in the final battle too. I imagine we'll have Durkon going on ahead while Roy and the others handle the monster outside.


I like the idea of Sigdi counting as a valid representative of clan Thundershield and thus casting a vote.


Given what happened with Hilgya it's not clear if she might be the elder of her clan i believe. Nothing more fitting that a priest of Loki putting Hels plans down.

[Peelee]

No, because that'd be "aguacate", and the word for lawyer is "abogado"

Grey Wolf

Muchoy apreciado! Though to be honest here, I learned everything I need to know about Mexican prisons from George Bluth.

[Jasdoif]

Frankly, I have found a fair amount of the plotting in this book to be a little...off. I assume anything that looks odd is going to pay off in the next book, because the few weird things in the previous books have been that way.Out of curiosity, what were those?The most obvious one is Julio. I mean, he shows up for four strips to give Elan a ride and some new abilities? The whole thing was a flashback interrupting a current conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0386.html), so the brevity I understand; but it felt too convenient for someone to come by and frame solving Elan's problems for him.

And then two books later, it turns out he has a connection to Tarquin, that connection to Tarquin is what drew his attention to Elan, and the airship that gave Elan some quick transportation before is exactly what the Order needs for getting around...and when Julio takes off for the outer planes, it leaves the Mechane unable to solve the Order's problems without them and so bypasses the "patron can do it for you" situation that Azure City was leveled for.


The earlier part still seems a little awkward, but...you know, nowhere near as awkward as trying to accomplish the same thing in the Empire of the Blood would have been. Pay now for a payoff later, that kind of thing. (The question of whether it's better to judge a book in a series on the book's merits or how it fits into the series is...probably its own set of discussions).
What? Of course not! It's to make my wife's eyes bleed (she got her Bachelor's in Spanish).

I'm also a huge fan of muy importe. I think at this point she's resigned herself to living in the barren linguistic wasteland that is my Spanish use.In that case.... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13DvXLdr_H4)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Given what happened with Hilgya it's not clear if she might be the elder of her clan i believe. Nothing more fitting that a priest of Loki putting Hels plans down.

She didn't kill her brothers, so unless she was the eldest and yet they arranged her marriage (unlikely), no, whomever was Firehelm clan head is still clan head. Besides, this sounds like the kind of council you need to have large amounts of "old money" to join, and the kind of clan that marries off women to other clans because they have money and the other clan does not does not strike me as "old" but "new" money clan.

I mean, the Firehelms might have a seat at the table regardless (because they had already purchased it before Hilgya came back), so it's not out of the question, but at this point, with the evidence we have, does not feel likely that Hilgya would be it (a denouement with her eldest brother would be a bit more likely).

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

I mean, the Firehelms might have a seat at the table regardless (because they had already purchased it before Hilgya came back.

Grey Wolf

Seeing as Gontor* waited until he had a majority rather than a full Council I could imagine a scenario where Dwarven Law state that if an Elder is unable to attend (because of, say, a morphant deathworm in the hallway) then any member of the clan can vote in their stead.

I’m still unsure why people think you need to be rich to attend though. At this point all we know is you have to be a Clan Elder.

[Rrmcklin]

Given what happened with Hilgya it's not clear if she might be the elder of her clan i believe. Nothing more fitting that a priest of Loki putting Hels plans down.

Other than Hilgya being a part of a clan (that she left) there's absolutely nothing indicating she would be the elder (again, of a clan she abandoned).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Seeing as Gontor* waited until he had a majority rather than a full Council I could imagine a scenario where Dwarven Law state that if an Elder is unable to attend (because of, say, a morphant deathworm in the hallway) then any member of the clan can vote in their stead.

I’m still unsure why people think you need to be rich to attend though. At this point all we know is you have to be a Clan Elder.

Because of the vast wealth comment? And the obvious parallels to similar RL institutions?

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I don't think anyone needs vast wealth to attend, despite that the attendees all likely have vast wealth.

[Fyraltari]

Because of the vast wealth comment?
I read that comment as "not going would be negligence of duty, which would be ground for not being matriarch anymore which would mean no more access to the wealth and influence of the clan which happens to be vast because it is a major clan". Do you read it as "only major clans attend"?

And the obvious parallels to similar RL institutions?
:smallconfused: Those institutions tend to have representative from all the clans/tribes/families/states/whatever division of the population that articular society uses not just the richest (though those are generally the one who matter the most).

[Fyraltari]

Edit: I am honored to have Fyraltari as my personal ninja.

>...>

<...<

Do you need somebody gone?

[Peelee]

I am honored to have Fyraltari as my personal ninja.>...>

<...<

Do you need somebody gone?

I am now paranoid that Aveline is plotting my assassination after I initiate the takeover of the MitD thread so she can seize the reigns of power for herself.

I approve of this plan, Aveline. You shall be a worthy successor, should Fyraltari succeed. Also, Fyraltari, I apologize for your inevitable demise as you shall not succeed.

[Kish]

On the one hand, I can see an etymological base for that. On the other hand, I'm afraid that would get me an avocado.
Pretty sure they taste better than lawyers anyway.

A dragon might have a different opinion, I suppose.

[Peelee]

Pretty sure they taste better than lawyers anyway.

A dragon might have a different opinion, I suppose.

Lawyers make a great torte.

[Resileaf]

Pretty sure they taste better than lawyers anyway.

A dragon might have a different opinion, I suppose.

Give him a good guacamole and he'll change his tune.

[Peelee]

Give him a good guacamole and he'll change his tune.

I love guacamole! A nice strong flavor. Unlike lawyers, their taste is too brief. I choose to believe that zimmerwald's office is trying their best to ignore his groans.

[Fyraltari]

I am now paranoid that Aveline is plotting my assassination after I initiate the takeover of the MitD thread so she can seize the reigns of power for herself.

I approve of this plan, Aveline. You shall be a worthy successor, should Fyraltari succeed. Also, Fyraltari, I apologize for your inevitable demise as you shall not succeed.

My demise? Don't worry my plan is to send thirteen dwarves and a halfling to rattle you off into getting shot by a random archer. I'll be nowhere to be seen.

What do you mean, "headcanon"? If you character interpretation is supported by the author then it's canon even if it's in a posthumously published and unfinished book!

[KorvinStarmast]

My knowledge of Spanish is pretty much limited to being able to ask for food, water, and where the bathroom is.
Donde esta el banjo?
Allí, en la mano de Elan.

[Peelee]

My demise? don't worry my plan is to send thirteen dwarves and a halfling to rattle you off into getting shot by a random archer. I'll be nowhere to be seen.
Note to self: make sure diamond armor is solid. Also, don't leave the cave.

Donde esta el banjo?
Aqui, en la mano de Elan.

¿...que?

[KorvinStarmast]

¿...que? The first letter in my name. (Korvin)

That was a joke on donde esta el baño (or donde es el baño, or adonde es el baño)

Roughly, "where is the bathroom."
(Trying a play on words across languages isn't always successful)

I'll get my coat ... desde el armario

[Fyraltari]

Note to self: make sure diamond armor is solid. Also, don't leave the cave.

Comment faire s'effondrer une montagne.


Wait.



This isn't Google.

[Mariele]

The most obvious one is Julio. I mean, he shows up for four strips to give Elan a ride and some new abilities? The whole thing was a flashback interrupting a current conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0386.html), so the brevity I understand; but it felt too convenient for someone to come by and frame solving Elan's problems for him.

And then two books later, it turns out he has a connection to Tarquin, that connection to Tarquin is what drew his attention to Elan, and the airship that gave Elan some quick transportation before is exactly what the Order needs for getting around...and when Julio takes off for the outer planes, it leaves the Mechane unable to solve the Order's problems without them and so bypasses the "patron can do it for you" situation that Azure City was leveled for.


The earlier part still seems a little awkward, but...you know, nowhere near as awkward as trying to accomplish the same thing in the Empire of the Blood would have been. Pay now for a payoff later, that kind of thing. (The question of whether it's better to judge a book in a series on the book's merits or how it fits into the series is...probably its own set of discussions).In that case.... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13DvXLdr_H4)

I'll cop to that, but a lot of the early stuff felt very awkward, imo. Familicide is another thing I can think of that seemed a little strange at the get-go, but eventually shimmied its way into the whole plot--although we still don't have a full resolution for it. Even if it's the last panel of the comic, it seems like something the comic wouldn't overlook entirely. I'll say, this comic will be very fun to read from start to finish once it is entirely finished and the last book is published!

[Fish]

A friendly reminder that this is not a thread about linguistics, but rather about OOTS 1158.
They haven't even begun to discuss linguistics. I have a bachelor's degree in linguistics, and I haven't seen any funny squiggly letters yet, or any discussions of English stress, Japanese syllables, or Noam Chomsky. This is just the warm-up to linguistics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A friendly reminder that this is not a thread about linguistics, but rather about OOTS 1158.

Good point. We are probably way overdue on our scheduled discussion of Star Wars.

(Fyraltari, I'll get back to you in a few hours - busy time, I can't do much more than quick answers)

Grey Wolf

[Riftwolf]

Où est la robe ton chat regarde?
One of my favourite French nonsense sentences. In French, even gibberish can sound seductive.

[Mariele]

They haven't even begun to discuss linguistics. I have a bachelor's degree in linguistics, and I haven't seen any funny squiggly letters yet, or any discussions of English stress, Japanese syllables, or Noam Chomsky. This is just the warm-up to linguistics.

Funny squiggly letters? هل شكلة تتحدث عن العربية؟

Forgive my Arabic, I'm still in beginner classes. :)

[Peelee]

Funny squiggly letters? هل شكلة تتحدث عن العربية؟

Forgive my Arabic, I'm still in beginner classes. :)

Oh, I'm great at Arabic! Check it: 0987654321

[Mariele]

Oh, I'm great at Arabic! Check it: 0987654321

Excuse you, Peelee!* (https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2859f2f600c06664074a3d7147186411) ;) Honestly, though, learning those numbers has become surprisingly second nature, even if the 6 is identical to our 7 and their 4 is a backwards 3... :P

*Just kidding, you know you and Dion are some of my favorite posters around here.

[Fish]

Funny squiggly letters? هل شكلة تتحدث عن العربية؟
I was thinking of the International Phonetic Alphabet, as in, /ði ˈɔɹdɚ ʌv ðʌ stɪk/.

[Peelee]

Excuse you, Peelee!* (https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2859f2f600c06664074a3d7147186411) ;) Honestly, though, learning those numbers has become surprisingly second nature, even if the 6 is identical to our 7 and their 4 is a backwards 3... :P

Note to self, I'm apparently terrible at Arabic. And have been lied to by math.

You know you and Dion are some of my favorite posters around here.
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/71/71d65c1595a0c0cf147eb1c4387cac3aa1f8952ea8466a5be2 94f404d15d9cc4.jpg

[Resileaf]

Où est la robe ton chat regarde?
One of my favourite French nonsense sentences. In French, even gibberish can sound seductive.

Omelette du fromage. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nW3-9gdjYA)

[Ruck]

I lived in Mexico for six months and still barely learned any Spanish beyond enough numbers to count off my street address and how much I had to pay for the food I had just ordered (which I also learned enough to do). Also, "donde esta la biblioteca."

[Peelee]

I lived in Mexico for six months and still barely learned any Spanish beyond enough numbers to count off my street address and how much I had to pay for the food I had just ordered (which I also learned enough to do). Also, "donde esta la biblioteca."

... Me llamo T-bone, la araña discoteca.

Discoteca, muñeca, la biblioteca, es en bigote grande, perro, manteca.

Manteca, bigote, gigante, pequeño, cabeza es nieve, cerveza es Bueno.

Buenos días, me gustas papas frias, bigote de la cabra, es Cameron Diaz!

[hroþila]

... Me llamo T-bone, la araña discoteca.

Discoteca, muñeca, la biblioteca, es en bigote grande, perro, manteca.

Manteca, bigote, gigante, pequeño, cabeza es nieve, cerveza es Bueno.

Buenos días, me gustas papas frias, bigote de la cabra, es Cameron Diaz!
Now that you dropped this reference, I'm always amazed by how often the Spanish in American shows/movies is utterly terrible (even when it's not being spoken by Spanish-as-a-second-language students in-universe, I mean), and how often they clearly couldn't get a single Spanish speaker to proofread their stuff or give them some basic pointers, even though there are like 40 million Spanish speakers in the US.

[Nimbus125]

Note to self, I'm apparently terrible at Arabic. And have been lied to by math.

IIRC the "arabic" numerals were actually created in India; they were just brought to Europe via the Arabs and so the Europeans just assumed they were the ones who came up with the whole system.

[ijuinkun]

They haven't even begun to discuss linguistics. I have a bachelor's degree in linguistics, and I haven't seen any funny squiggly letters yet, or any discussions of English stress, Japanese syllables, or Noam Chomsky. This is just the warm-up to linguistics.

Ugh, I got my BA in linguistics too, and half of my professors worshipped the ground that Chomsky walked upon.

[Mariele]

I was thinking of the International Phonetic Alphabet, as in, /ði ˈɔɹdɚ ʌv ðʌ stɪk/.
Ah, that's fair.

I'm pretty sure that's what I was taught, too, Nimbus125.

[deworde]

Quick question, what happens if Bloodfeast the Exterminator passed through the first portal?

[Reslain]

Quick question, what happens if Bloodfeast the Exterminator passed through the first portal?

It should return to it's previous size, unless the portal somehow only removes spells and effects with a duration rather than "permanent" effects.

[georgie_leech]

Quick question, what happens if Bloodfeast the Exterminator passed through the first portal?

Nohing; as a non-Dwarf, Blood feast will only pass through if something stops the barrier from working.

[Fyraltari]

Où est la robe ton chat regarde?
One of my favourite French nonsense sentences. In French, even gibberish can sound seductive.

Add a "que" in there and that sentence make sense.

[Mightymosy]

... Me llamo T-bone, la araña discoteca.

Discoteca, muñeca, la biblioteca, es en bigote grande, perro, manteca.

Manteca, bigote, gigante, pequeño, cabeza es nieve, cerveza es Bueno.

Buenos días, me gustas papas frias, bigote de la cabra, es Cameron Diaz!

I don't understand what you wrote here, but you mention Cameron Diaz so I support your position
:-)

[Goblin_Priest]

IME many 3.x players seem to have been ludicrously conservative with consumables and XP costs.

If you crafted and used consumables and other gear, you could double or triple overall party effectiveness and power, even one extra encounter more than paid for the costs, and if your GM is not pulling his punches then not being killed or having a TPK is golden.

Crafting and consumables are REALLY REALLY GOOD in 3.x and over-leveled scrolls are one of the best consumables. A scroll of a 9th level spell without component costs is only 3,825 GP (quite affordable, and within many communities purchase limit), and at level 7 you can get it to go off on a roll of 11+, and it misfires only on a natural 1 on a separate check.

Over-leveled scrolls are something the good guys in a comic like the OotS can't be shown using, because it opens the question of why they don't simply steamroll everything. How many ninth level spells can they afford scrolls of (3,825 GP is less than double what Elan wastes "haggling" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) without Haley even caring).

The world of OotS is very badly optimized, lack of over-leveled scrolls is part of the poor optimization.

3.0 had all the XP costs ,and 3.5, I believe, removed most of them.

But otherwise, yes, I agree.

Probably table-dependent, though. I think a lot of people were very reticent to use XP cost spells and effects because it would make them lag behind the rest of the party, and would delay the gain of new powerful abilities. People don't generally like being a level or more behind their peers. As for gold costs, while it could be shared, that's still a matter of negotiation, and likewise incurs the risk of the guy spending all the consumables running behind.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't understand what you wrote here, but you mention Cameron Diaz so I support your position
:-)
It starts Something like my name is T-bone (I am called t-bone) but it boils down to "know your meme (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/donde-esta-la-biblioteca-spanish-rap)" :smallwink:

Dos cervezas, por favor, para mi, y mi amigo Mightymosy

It has been over 40 years since I first learned Spanish and I have forgotten nearly all of it. :smallfrown:

[Borris]

Add a "que" in there and that sentence make sense.
Still doesn't make sense.
How would you know my cat is looking at a dress if you have no idea where the dress is?

[Larre Gannd]

It starts Something like my name is T-bone (I am called t-bone) but it boils down to "know your meme (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/donde-esta-la-biblioteca-spanish-rap)" :smallwink:

Dos cervezas, por favor, para mi, y mi amigo Mightymosy

It has been over 40 years since I first learned Spanish and I have forgotten nearly all of it. :smallfrown:

2 beers, please, for me, and my friend Mightymosy.
That’s not to say I’m good at Spanish. It just means I know what beer is.

[Peelee]

I don't understand what you wrote here, but you mention Cameron Diaz so I support your position
:-)


It starts Something like my name is T-bone (I am called t-bone) but it boils down to "know your meme (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/donde-esta-la-biblioteca-spanish-rap)" :smallwink:

Dos cervezas, por favor, para mi, y mi amigo Mightymosy

It has been over 40 years since I first learned Spanish and I have forgotten nearly all of it. :smallfrown:

Y'all need more Community in your lives.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And now for something completely different: did anyone notice that the nightcrawler is a single-quiddity creation? As are, by implication, the various vampire spirits?
Hmm, that is an interesting point. It probably won’t come up, but still something cool to point out.


Congratulations, you have been successfully trolled.
I don’t think so...I think he was making the point that reading books I, II, and III gets you to about Gandalf riding away with Pippin and nowhere close to the ring being destroyed. :smallamused:


The ability of the this forum to do wordplay in their non-native tongues is one of my favorite things about it. I eagerly await Peelee and Fyraltari discussing Star Wars in Latin.

[Riftwolf]

Still doesn't make sense.
How would you know my cat is looking at a dress if you have no idea where the dress is?

I'd like to point out the French I learnt is from Duolingo and yes, the sentence doesn't make sense and is bad grammar, but still has a rhythm to it. Like 'dans la pomme a midi'. No sense, just flows nicely.

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

So does this answer the question regarding the gods ability to watch their minions?

[Larre Gannd]

So does this answer the question regarding the gods ability to watch their minions?

But Dvalin is a demigod

[Gusion]

But Dvalin is a demigod

Thor isn't, and he'd be watching Durkin, in theory, and could clue Dvalin in on what's happening.

[Peelee]

Thor isn't, and he'd be watching Durkin, in theory, and could clue Dvalin in on what's happening.

That makes a very strong case for "Dvalin can't do squat if the council votes a certain way."

[Fyraltari]

Fyraltari, I'll get back to you in a few hours - busy time, I can't do much more than quick answers
Whenever you're ready.

Still doesn't make sense.
How would you know my cat is looking at a dress if you have no idea where the dress is?
The cat is looking at a picture?

So does this answer the question regarding the gods ability to watch their minions?
We already knew they can (unless special circumstance).

[KorvinStarmast]

Thor isn't, and he'd be watching Durkin, in theory, and could clue Dvalin in on what's happening. Is Durkin wearing a leather jerkin while munching on a gherkin? :smalleek:

[Peelee]

Is Durkin wearing a leather jerkin while munching on a gherkin? :smalleek:

I've heard there are duties he's shirkin'.

[Xel]

My bold prediction:
1. Belkar finds a way to get past the orange barrier. Maybe he's in the Bag of Holding, maybe the reason we haven't been told about Belkar's family is because he's half-dwarfish, whatever.
2. Belkar's character journey has led to his gaining a point of wisdom, allowing him to cast spells.
3. Belkar casts a spell to save Durkon, which triggers the blue anti-magic ward. Belkar gets turned to stone. It might be difficult to return him to normal (at least while the meeting lasts) because breaking that enchantment could trigger the anti-magic ward again. And if a vampire is left in charge, the meeting could go on forever...

Yeah, I don't think it's going to come true either, but what would the forum be without baseless speculation?



I dunno. I wouldn’t know the actual rules without some perusal of the books, but in-comic, it seems like we have evidence that the spell attempt would fail when the stoning triggered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

If it did work, I’d think Minrah would be the Occam’s Razor shaving to do it, though:
- Qualifies as a dwarf for barrier purposes? Check.
- Can already cast Dispell Magic? Check.
- Needs an excuse to go down fighting against something she actually has a chance of doing something about, rather than get one-shotted by the epic villains later? Check.

Yes, I know you were being much less than half serious. I’ll raise you to 1/3 serious...

[Algeh]

Quick question, what happens if Bloodfeast the Exterminator passed through the first portal?


Nohing; as a non-Dwarf, Blood feast will only pass through if something stops the barrier from working.

I do kind of wonder where the line is drawn on dwarf vs. non-dwarf. I don't think it'll end up being relevant, but we already known that vampires wearing dwarf bodies count as dwarves for this purpose so it accepts things that are some kinds of edge cases for Truly a Dwarf. Would a dwarf with an animal class feature have to leave their familiar/animal companion/mount outside? Would a dwarf with beard lice be magically de-loused by passing through the barrier? What about a dwarf with a tapeworm? What about the regular suite of dwarvish intestinal bacteria?

I am not expecting the answer to be "use a spell to shrink everyone so they can fit in Durkon's mouth to get through the barrier while inside a dwarf" for a variety of sound aesthetic and narrative reasons, but I always kind of want to push at the edges of magic like this to see what happens.

[Fyraltari]

I do kind of wonder where the line is drawn on dwarf vs. non-dwarf. I don't think it'll end up being relevant, but we already known that vampires wearing dwarf bodies count as dwarves for this purpose so it accepts things that are some kinds of edge cases for Truly a Dwarf. Would a dwarf with an animal class feature have to leave their familiar/animal companion/mount outside? Would a dwarf with beard lice be magically de-loused by passing through the barrier? What about a dwarf with a tapeworm? What about the regular suite of dwarvish intestinal bacteria?

I am not expecting the answer to be "use a spell to shrink everyone so they can fit in Durkon's mouth to get through the barrier while inside a dwarf" for a variety of sound aesthetic and narrative reasons, but I always kind of want to push at the edges of magic like this to see what happens.

If I were the GM/author, I would say that anything that does not have a symbiotic relationship with the dwarf organism (such as stomach bacteria) is stopped. The lice would be pushed off and the tapeworm crushed until it died and started counting as an object on the dwarf's person.

[Jasdoif]

I do kind of wonder where the line is drawn on dwarf vs. non-dwarf. I don't think it'll end up being relevant, but we already known that vampires wearing dwarf bodies count as dwarves for this purpose so it accepts things that are some kinds of edge cases for Truly a Dwarf. Would a dwarf with an animal class feature have to leave their familiar/animal companion/mount outside? Would a dwarf with beard lice be magically de-loused by passing through the barrier? What about a dwarf with a tapeworm? What about the regular suite of dwarvish intestinal bacteria?

I am not expecting the answer to be "use a spell to shrink everyone so they can fit in Durkon's mouth to get through the barrier while inside a dwarf" for a variety of sound aesthetic and narrative reasons, but I always kind of want to push at the edges of magic like this to see what happens.Boring answer: It probably allows humanoids with the dwarf subtype, and any creature with the augmented humanoid subtype whose original form had the dwarf subtype (like a dwarf vampire).

[Borris]

If I were the GM/author, I would say that anything that does not have a symbiotic relationship with the dwarf organism (such as stomach bacteria) is stopped. The lice would be pushed off and the tapeworm crushed until it died and started counting as an object on the dwarf's person.

Best delousing / tapeworm removal treatment ever.

[Peelee]

If I were the GM/author, I would say that anything that does not have a symbiotic relationship with the dwarf organism (such as stomach bacteria) is stopped. The lice would be pushed off and the tapeworm crushed until it died and started counting as an object on the dwarf's person.

If I were the GM/author, I'd say "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Oh, look, an infinite number of bridges we're not crossing how about that.":smalltongue:

[Riftwolf]

Thor isn't, and he'd be watching Durkin, in theory, and could clue Dvalin in on what's happening.

Headcanon: Dvalin has isolated himself from the Gods so he can't be swayed by either side of the argument. The only source who could approach him with evidence of interference would have to be a neutral party, and as every God in the North has voted, he can't believe they wouldn't have ulterior motives. Thor pointing at Hel and accusing her of subverting the will of the Council would be treated as background political noise.

[Fyraltari]

Best delousing / tapeworm removal treatment ever.
You say that until you have to get rid of the worm's remains.

If I were the GM/author, I'd say "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Oh, look, an infinite number of bridges we're not crossing how about that.":smalltongue:
No, no, no that's for when you don't have an answer.

In all seriousness, I like it when details are accounted for (hard SF/Fantasy vs Soft) because it makes using the tech/magic in cretive ways just so much more clever and makes the world more verisimilar.

[deuterio12]

IME many 3.x players seem to have been ludicrously conservative with consumables and XP costs.

If you crafted and used consumables and other gear, you could double or triple overall party effectiveness and power, even one extra encounter more than paid for the costs, and if your GM is not pulling his punches then not being killed or having a TPK is golden.

Crafting and consumables are REALLY REALLY GOOD in 3.x and over-leveled scrolls are one of the best consumables. A scroll of a 9th level spell without component costs is only 3,825 GP (quite affordable, and within many communities purchase limit), and at level 7 you can get it to go off on a roll of 11+, and it misfires only on a natural 1 on a separate check.

Over-leveled scrolls are something the good guys in a comic like the OotS can't be shown using, because it opens the question of why they don't simply steamroll everything. How many ninth level spells can they afford scrolls of (3,825 GP is less than double what Elan wastes "haggling" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) without Haley even caring).


The pathetic part is that the "good guys" still loaded on over-leveled scrolls (it's not only the Gate one, there were still more that may also be 9th level), but would rather literally die than spending a single one of them. "Oh noes I'm being attacked by vampires and low on spell slots and all I have is this GATE SCROLL that could be used to curbstomp my enemies and save the day. Plus a bunch of other scrolls. Fate sure is cruel, there's nothing I can do anymore besides make sure those scrolls stay in pristine state."

Then when he's on bad guys team he eagerly goes "I shall use my over-leveled scrolls now!"

[georgie_leech]

The pathetic part is that the "good guys" still loaded on over-leveld scrolls (it's not only the Gate one, there were still more that may also be 9th level), but would rather literally die than spending a single one of them. "Oh noes I'm being attacked by vampires and low on spell slots and all I have is this GATE SCROLL that could be used to curbstomp my enemies and save the day. Plus a bunch of other scrolls. Fate sure is cruel, there's nothing I can do anymore besides make sure those scrolls stay in pristine state."

Then when he's on bad guys team he eagerly goes "I shall use my scrolls now!"

Because when i'm suddenly Silenced and ambushed from behind by a Vampire that Grapples me and starts draining my blood, it's trivial to rummage through my pockets for a bulky Scroll that I can cast if I ignore all of the things stopping me from casting the spell on it. :smallamused:

[Mariele]

Ahaha, oh lord. I'm converting from the Church of Sudden Skylight to Church of Shrinking Down and Hiding Inside Durkon's Mouth.

Can you imagine if more people knew about this place? Man, send your lice-ridden kids to go run through a portal instead of taking them to the local cleric. Or sneak over there to get rid of parasites they've picked up. I'm entertained.

[Fish]

Ugh, I got my BA in linguistics too, and half of my professors worshipped the ground that Chomsky walked upon.
I didn't get that sense. Full points to Chomsky for being a smart guy, but not all of his theories hold up.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Because when i'm suddenly Silenced and ambushed from behind by a Vampire that Grapples me and starts draining my blood, it's trivial to rummage through my pockets for a bulky Scroll that I can cast if I ignore all of the things stopping me from casting the spell on it. :smallamused:

Scroll casting can be disrupted like normal casting, so he might not be able to cast it considering he's losing 1d4 Con/round by blood drain.

[Gusion]

Oh, since we're doing predictions...

Durkon purposefully gets eaten by the nightcrawler. Everyone else is busy. Minrah is turning undead that the nightcrawler is summoning.

A bit later the nightcrawler is destroyed by consecutive heals cast by Durkon from inside.

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh, since we're doing predictions...

Durkon purposefully gets eaten by the nightcrawler. Everyone else is busy. Minrah is turning undead that the nightcrawler is summoning.

A bit later the nightcrawler is destroyed by consecutive heals cast by Durkon from inside.
Heal allows SR, and the nightcrawler has SR 31. Durkon has 13 Cleric levels at this point, and would need to roll 18 or better to manage this strategy.

[Gusion]

Heal allows SR, and the nightcrawler has SR 31. Durkon has 13 Cleric levels at this point, and would need to roll 18 or better to manage this strategy.

Yes, he would need to overcome SR.

We know he has the good domain, I suppose we don't know the other... although typically healing isn't associated with Thor.

But the SR is the specific reason I didn't say x seconds later. He may need to blow a few attempts to get one off. I'm not going to suggest he somehow has lower spell resistance since that's a spell specific to the Draconomicon.

I do think thematically it would look good, sorta the "good" version of what V did... and that Durkon in character probably doesn't know to NOT try it.

[Peelee]

Ahaha, oh lord. I'm converting from the Church of Sudden Skylight to Church of Shrinking Down and Hiding Inside Durkon's Mouth.

The Church of the Sudden Skylight does not enforce any dietary restrictions, nor any ill will towards former congregants (and is always willing to welcome them back if they choose).

[NoHaxJustPi]

To make up for your sudden loss of a follower, I shall now become a member of the Church of the Sudden Skylight.
Also, i'm saying no antimagic field to bypass the barriers. The orange shell could be an epic spell made using the Dispel seed (at least the dispelling part, some other seed would also be involved for dwarves only), which i believe can end ANY spell. Including Antimagic Field, Forcecage, Wall of Force, Prismatic Sphere, Prismatic Wall, etc. If so, another trick with the barrier other than parasite removal would be to remove curses and negative magical effects.
EDIT: Yes, the Dispel seed can end all spells.

[Ruck]

Oh, since we're doing predictions...

Durkon purposefully gets eaten by the nightcrawler. Everyone else is busy. Minrah is turning undead that the nightcrawler is summoning.

A bit later the nightcrawler is destroyed by consecutive heals cast by Durkon from inside.

Sounds too similar to Darth V beating the Ancient Black Dragon for me to put my money on it.

[georgie_leech]

Scroll casting can be disrupted like normal casting, so he might not be able to cast it considering he's losing 1d4 Con/round by blood drain.

That was among the things I was going for, yes.

[Goblin_Priest]

To make up for your sudden loss of a follower, I shall now become a member of the Church of the Sudden Skylight.
Also, i'm saying no antimagic field to bypass the barriers. The orange shell could be an epic spell made using the Dispel seed (at least the dispelling part, some other seed would also be involved for dwarves only), which i believe can end ANY spell. Including Antimagic Field, Forcecage, Wall of Force, Prismatic Sphere, Prismatic Wall, etc. If so, another trick with the barrier other than parasite removal would be to remove curses and negative magical effects.

Yea, I'm not expecting the use of antimagic field either. Just like teleportation, it makes obstacles too easy to bypass, and thus for a poor story, unless used with much parsimony. Setting up all of these barriers and describing them would be a huge waste of time if they can just walk through it with a single spell.

[zimmerwald1915]

We know he has the good domain, I suppose we don't know the other... although typically healing isn't associated with Thor.
Durkon's other domain is some variation on Weather or Air - not precisely either (Thor's lightning, the best indicator for Durkon's second domain, seems to work like call lightning, which appears on the Weather list, some of the time and lightning bolt, which appears on neither list although chain lightning appears on the Air list, the rest of the time), but close enough for government work.

And the Good domain does not add +1 CL to castings of heal, as heal is not a [Good] spell.


But the SR is the specific reason I didn't say x seconds later. He may need to blow a few attempts to get one off. I'm not going to suggest he somehow has lower spell resistance since that's a spell specific to the Draconomicon.
Statistically speaking, only 1 attempt in 10 will work, though. Unless Durkon gets really lucky, or remembers to cast death ward at some point, this strategy has him taking enough negative levels to go wight before he kills the nightcrawler. Maybe he would try it if he couldn't avoid getting swallowed, but on purpose? I think not.

I suspect the Sudden Skylight will come into play against the nightcrawler before the Order finds a way to bring it to bear against the vampires, actually. -4 to saving throws is no picnic, especially when your high-CR beastie has a starting Fort save of +12 ( => +8) and Ref save of +10 ( => +6).

[zimmerwald1915]

Yea, I'm not expecting the use of antimagic field either. Just like teleportation, it makes obstacles too easy to bypass, and thus for a poor story, unless used with much parsimony. Setting up all of these barriers and describing them would be a huge waste of time if they can just walk through it with a single spell.
The Order's strategy at this point is probably to give Durkon all their helpful magic items (primarily the belt of giant strength, orange prism ioun stone, and boots of speed) and send him through the barrier to deal with the vampires alone or with Hilgya while they guard and/or sing bard songs through the entrance. Once they see the state of play, it will probably shift to getting Durkon [and Hilgya] through the barrier while they fight the nightcrawler and any vampires who happen to be outside the hall.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Durkon might have a Belt of Giant Strength. Last time we saw him, he got a Hammer of Thunderbolts which requires Gauntlets of Ogre Power and a Belt of Giant Strength and allows them to stack. It makes sense that those would be stored with it

[zimmerwald1915]

Durkon might have a Belt of Giant Strength. Last time we saw him, he got a Hammer of Thunderbolts which requires Gauntlets of Ogre Power and a Belt of Giant Strength and allows them to stack. It makes sense that those would be stored with it
The hammer of thunderbolts does not require either gauntlets of ogre power, a belt of giant strength, or both. It merely gains extra powers if the wielder wears both gauntlets and belt. Also, it's merely an educated guess at this point that Durkon's hammer is the hammer of thunderbolts.

[NoHaxJustPi]

I misremembered that, but we see him putting on gloves/gauntlets at the end of 1154 when he gets the Hammer of Thunderbolts (because, really, what else would it be? It’s crackling with electricity and he’s putting on gloves/gauntlets to wield it)

[zimmerwald1915]

I misremembered that, but we see him putting on gloves/gauntlets at the end of 1154 when he gets the Hammer of Thunderbolts
And we did not see him put on a belt. It's entirely possible, even likely, that the hammer came packaged with a belt and we just haven't seen it yet. There are good reasons to think that Roy will not be giving up his belt on any kind of long-term basis - the best being that it ties his design together nicely and Mr. Burlew the artist is probably not going to mess with that. But still, we do not know.

I suspect we will soon, after the scene-setting is done and we get to see Durkon fully decked-out.


(because, really, what else would it be? It’s crackling with electricity and he’s putting on gloves/gauntlets to wield it)
I agree. Still just an educated guess tho :smalltongue:

[Jasdoif]

(because, really, what else would it be? It’s crackling with electricity and he’s putting on gloves/gauntlets to wield it)The hammer of thunderbolts doesn't have an electric effect, oddly enough.

And gauntlets of energy transformation would be nice with any weapon that does deal electricity damage, what with vampires resisting electricity damage (and liches being immune to it). That's more of a "could" than a "would", admittedly.

[zimmerwald1915]

The hammer of thunderbolts doesn't have an electric effect, oddly enough.
If the hammer does turn out to be the hammer of thunderbolts, though, that would probably be a good thing. Seeing as how the vampires resist electricity and Xykon is outright immune to it.

And a thing can spark with electricity as part of its initial reveal, per Rule of Cool, and then turn out not to deal electricity damage.

[Fyraltari]

Once they see the state of play, it will probably shift to getting Durkon [and Hilgya] through the barrier while they fight the nightcrawler and any vampires who happen to be outside the hall.

I agree with you but I just remembered that since Durkon* and Gontor* waited at least a whole day in Firmament together, there's a non-trivial chance that Durkon already knows about the Gate Scroll and the Order's plan already takes "they have summonned a big monster" into account.

The hammer of thunderbolts doesn't have an electric effect, oddly enough.

This may be a Hammer of Thunderbolts with additional enchantments on it so thaat it also deals electricity and (holy is that a thing?) damage as befits a relic of Thor.

[Kish]

Given the state the orange prism ioun stone was last seen in, I doubt very much it will be given or loaned to anyone who is not a bird.

[zimmerwald1915]

Given the state the orange prism ioun stone was last seen in, I doubt very much it will be given or loaned to anyone who is not a bird.
Blackwing has resolved to try and be less possessive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1021.html). And importantly, Durkon is not Vaarsuvius.

[Fyraltari]

Blackwing has resolved to try and be less possessive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1021.html). And importantly, Durkon is not Vaarsuvius.

Which is larger? A dwarf's finger or a raven's leg?

[zimmerwald1915]

Which is larger? A dwarf's finger or a raven's leg?
I presume, of course, that if removed from Blackwing's leg, the item will still orbit as it normally would. And if not, it probably bestows its benefits if kept in one's pocket - it is a slotless item, after all.

[Jasdoif]

If the hammer does turn out to be the hammer of thunderbolts, though, that would probably be a good thing. Seeing as how the vampires resist electricity and Xykon is outright immune to it.That's what I said, yes. Of course, undead are immune to death effects (and aren't giants) and stunning as well; so it's still rather a waste. Well, unless Durkon's planning to stun the elders while he's throwing the hammer, I guess....


And a thing can spark with electricity as part of its initial reveal, per Rule of Cool, and then turn out not to deal electricity damage.True, I suppose; but when I saw "what else would it be, besides something that doesn't fit the evidence of what it is", for a moment I thought I accidentally clicked the MitD thread....And the base idea of combining a lightning blast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm#lightningBlast) epic weapon with CL 3 gloves from Magic Item Compendium amused me.


This may be a Hammer of Thunderbolts with additional enchantments on it so thaat it also deals electriccity and (holy is that a thing?) damage as befits a relic of Thor.If the Hammer of Thunderbolts wasn't an artifact, having additional properties on it would be entirely reasonable.


(holy is that a thing?)Yes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holy)

[zimmerwald1915]

That's what I said, yes.
Somehow my eyes just glazed over everything past your first sentence :smallredface:

[Jasdoif]

Somehow my eyes just glazed over everything past your first sentence :smallredface:Should I have kept it as one paragraph? I ended up going with "giving the hammer and gloves their own paragraphs might be a little easier to follow".

[zimmerwald1915]

Should I have kept it as one paragraph? I ended up going with "giving the hammer and gloves their own paragraphs might be a little easier to follow".
Nothing you could have done, I just wasn't being attentive.

[Kish]

I presume, of course, that if removed from Blackwing's leg, the item will still orbit as it normally would. And if not, it probably bestows its benefits if kept in one's pocket - it is a slotless item, after all.
I, meanwhile, would be as surprised if the comic revealed that when the gnome said "With a bit of artificer know-how, I can transmogrify that stone into a bracelet that you can wear while still granting the bonuses to your wizard" he meant "I can mount the effectively unchanged ioun stone on a bracelet" as you apparently would be if it revealed the contrary.

[zimmerwald1915]

I, meanwhile, would be as surprised if the comic revealed that when the gnome said "With a bit of artificer know-how, I can transmogrify that stone into a bracelet that you can wear while still granting the bonuses to your wizard" he meant "I can mount the effectively unchanged ioun stone on a bracelet" as you apparently would be if it revealed the contrary.
The artificer changed the thing's shape from what is presumably a sphere to a torus. He did not necessarily remove its slotlessness (familiars don't ordinarily have magic item slots), or change its other properties.

[Kish]

All you did was reassert what you'd already said, with perhaps a little closer to an acknowledgement that it was an opinion rather than an "of course." My answer to it is unchanged and quoted in your post.


I, meanwhile, would be as surprised if the comic revealed that when the gnome said "With a bit of artificer know-how, I can transmogrify that stone into a bracelet that you can wear while still granting the bonuses to your wizard" he meant "I can mount the effectively unchanged ioun stone on a bracelet" as you apparently would be if it revealed the contrary.

[zimmerwald1915]

All you did was reassert what you'd already said, with perhaps a little closer to an acknowledgement that it was an opinion rather than an "of course." My answer to it is unchanged and quoted in your post.
The artificer uses the word "can," not "must," and so does not exclude the possibility of the transmogrified ioun stone working as it normally would. You also put words in my mouth; it's entirely clear that the ioun stone is not unchanged in shape, or mounted on a bracelet. But the change in shape is the only necessary change to get the effects observed.

[Kish]

But the change in shape is the only necessary change to get the effects observed.
Tosh. Find me "or it'll work if it's in your pocket or being worn as a bracelet somehow" in the description of ioun stones.

I'll go one better and find you the opposite, first:

These crystalline stones always float in the air and must be within 3 feet of their owner to be of any use. When a character first acquires a stone, she must hold it and then release it, whereupon it takes up a circling orbit 1d3 feet from her head. Thereafter, a stone must be grasped or netted to separate it from its owner. The owner may voluntarily seize and stow a stone (to keep it safe while she is sleeping, for example), but she loses the benefits of the stone during that time. Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5.

I understand that from a "D&D is all about numbers, right?" optimization perspective, the only word that matters is the absence of any statement of a conventional body slot that can be paraphrased as "slotless," but that will only lead you in the right direction for a game run by a DM who I wouldn't want to play with anyway--not a story, not a roleplaying game, and certainly not this webcomic.

[mjasghar]

The hammer of thunderbolts is a minor artifact so there’s no reason there couldn’t be a variant version with electricity damage or even more stuff
Since on this world Hel is more actively Thor’s enemy I can see there being a hammer of thunderbolts that when activated becomes an undead bane instead of a giant bane

[zimmerwald1915]

Tosh. Find me "or it'll work if it's in your pocket or being worn as a bracelet somehow" in the description of ioun stones.
I was wrong about Durkon possibly putting it in his pocket. Ioun stones don't normally work that way, and I misremembered.

But is the possibility of him having it orbit his head excluded by it having been transmogrified? I see no reason to think so. Likewise, I see no reason to think that since being transmogrified, it will only ever work for a wizard or sorcerer when being worn by that wizard or sorcerer's familiar.


but that will only lead you in the right direction for a game run by a DM who I wouldn't want to play with anyway--not a story, not a roleplaying game, and certainly not this webcomic.
The story is made neither better nor worse from no one thinking to give Durkon as many of their magic items - which they will at best be using in a side-battle while Durkon is the only one permitted on the critical stage - as possible. The story is, however, made worse if someone (in story) does think to do that, and Blackwing refuses to go along for possessiveness's sake, when he has resolved to be less possessive. It renders the earlier scene, and Blackwing himself going forward, less credible.

[Kish]

The story is made neither better nor worse from no one thinking to give Durkon as many of their magic items - which they will at best be using in a side-battle while Durkon is the only one permitted on the critical stage - as possible. The story is, however, made worse if someone (in story) does think to do that, and Blackwing refuses to go along for possessiveness's sake, when he has resolved to be less possessive. It renders the earlier scene, and Blackwing himself going forward, less credible.
You do realize that the whole image of "Blackwing refuses to give Durkon an ioun stone" is one conjured up and argued about solely by you, I hope.

[zimmerwald1915]

You do realize that the whole image of "Blackwing refuses to give Durkon an ioun stone" is one conjured up and argued about solely by you, I hope.
Oh, certainly. In the post where I initially speculated about this, I used "probably" twice.

[Quebbster]

And we did not see him put on a belt. It's entirely possible, even likely, that the hammer came packaged with a belt and we just haven't seen it yet. There are good reasons to think that Roy will not be giving up his belt on any kind of long-term basis - the best being that it ties his design together nicely and Mr. Burlew the artist is probably not going to mess with that. But still, we do not know.

I suspect we will soon, after the scene-setting is done and we get to see Durkon fully decked-out.


I agree. Still just an educated guess tho :smalltongue:
My guess is the Belt needed to wield the Hammer had been lost and that's why it had been forgotten. Could be wrong of course, but it would seem to fit the story quite neatly.

[schmunzel]

In #1157, they call the area between the barriers the middle chamber, so I think the outer chamber is the cave in which the tower stands, and is now defended by the worm.

Grey Wolf

This would mean that there is an outer Ring of defense around the cave that hasnt been divulged to us.
That would not make a lot of sense to me??


Storytellingwise I am with Jasdoif - the third - as of yet unknown - Ring will be a major plot element.
It wouldnt make sense for that to be at the outer limits of the cave.

The worm will serve to separate the order from Durkon. Or perhaps more precise other dwarves (like Hylgia or Mom) from Durkon so that he will be on his own inside the inner chamber

did the HPoH know of the scroll??? I suspect not.



sch

[Pablo360]

Just popped in to say analyzing the second <the> in /ði⏑'or.dɚr ʌv ðə⏑'stıkˀ/ as /ðʌ/ hurts my soul

[Rogar Demonblud]

Durkon pretty much has to solo the Council trap. He really needs the XP.

[drazen]

Sorry Hel, I liked Gontor's quipping just fine. Very Shakespearean.

And you made his vampire spirit anyway so really you have no one to blame but yourself :)

[Potatamoto]

Dvalin made that oath when he was the king, not a demigod. He therefore identifies something as a valid expression of the will of the council - their vote, for example. I don't see how that would change after his deification, given how unwilling he is to change his ways. If he took the council's vote as an expression of their will, regardless of what backstabbing, blackmail, vote purchasing might have gone on behind the scenes, he still will accept it now.

Observing a vote too closely causes the vote to not reflect the actual will of the council. That's why when we vote in RL, you get a booth and no-one can see your vote: because public voting means people can be scared to vote their conscience. If you feel that the process must be as close as possible to the true will of the council, then Dvalin must stay as far away from the proceeding as possible so he doesn't influence it at all.

Maybe Rich will point it out, maybe he will not, But even if he doesn’t, you objection has no weight. You can't have it both ways: you can't say that domination invalidates the will of the council, and then claim that the demigod watching them vote doesn't. They both do. So clearly something has to give, and that is the idea that the vote is not definitionally the will of the council, no matter what magical or non-magical means have been used to warp it.

Grey Wolf

Look, you're totally entitled to your opinion, but I'm just not seeing it that way. Bribes, backstabbing, even blackmail don't hold a candle to the actual magical negation of someone's free will, because even in the case of blackmail the dwarf in question would have chosen to acquiesce to the blackmail rather than vote their conscience. If they're enthralled, at no point do they have an opportunity to make any kind of choice at all. The councilor in question no longer has any input whatsoever in the vote they're supposedly casting.

As for the whole bit about Dvalin 'identifying something as the will of the council, their votes for example...' If it turns out the oath Dvalin swore specifically identified the vote of the council, I'd be willing to accept that, and that would be the end of this. But if he just swore to obey the will of the council, then him going along with all this is going to feel like a stretch to me. Your mileage may vary.

And regarding me 'me having it both ways' with all that stuff about Dvalin watching the Council...we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on all that. Personally, I'd lay money on these proceedings being squarely in Dvalin's portfolio, if we're gonna get all 'Deities & Demigods' all up in here. Dwarven politics, the welfare of the Dwarven people...something like that. And given that this vote affects the entire race, I'm pretty sure he'd be aware of these proceedings whether he wanted to or not.

And much like the blackmail point, if a councilor changes their vote because they think Dvalin's peeking over their shoulder, that's still a choice they're making. Besides, I don't think anyone has ever established that a council vote is a secret ballot, anyway. I'm definitely not getting dragged into a debate of what constitutes 'true' free will over this, I'm just saying that being enthralled definitely negates the will of a particular councilor.

Anyway, to be clear, none of this really matters all that much. Once again, I'm just saying I'd think it would be funny and richly satisfying if Dvalin chimed in and refused to count the votes of the enthralled councilors. And if he doesn't, and we never address why he'd be so willing to accept the tainted vote, I guess I'd find it a wee bit unsatisfying, but it certainly wouldn't spoil my overall enjoyment.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Look, you're totally entitled to your opinion, but I'm just not seeing it that way. Bribes, backstabbing, even blackmail don't hold a candle to the actual magical negation of someone's free will, because even in the case of blackmail the dwarf in question would have chosen to acquiesce to the blackmail rather than vote their conscience. If they're enthralled, at no point do they have an opportunity to make any kind of choice at all. The councilor in question no longer has any input whatsoever in the vote they're supposedly casting.

No, it is exactly the same. That's why domination has a will check. The councilors do have the opportunity to use their wills to break free. Just like a councilor whose family member has been kidnapped to force him to vote a certain way could have the will to let them die rather than be blackmailed.

You are trying to draw a line where you redefine "the will of the council", for no apparent reason other than what is bending the will of the council right now is one type and not the other. But In OotS, magic and political blackmail have identical results. Reminder: stratospheric bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) can have the same results, and the magic was not in their belief (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0768.html). Haley could talk half the council into voting for world destruction and there is nothing Dvalin could do about it, nor even tell it had happened.


Personally, I'd lay money on these proceedings being squarely in Dvalin's portfolio, if we're gonna get all 'Deities & Demigods' all up in here.
"We" are not doing anything of the sort. I said in my first post, and I repeat, that Dvalin established these procedure prior to his deification. I very much doubt that even if his portfolio includes anything related to procedural voting, that it enables him to spy on the procedures - in fact, I suspect that, if anything, his hands are even more tied now as a god than he was as a dwarf. So, sure, I'll take that bet.


Once again, I'm just saying I'd think it would be funny and richly satisfying if Dvalin chimed in and refused to count the votes of the enthralled councilors.
So you suggest that Dvalin, an ascended mortal who established the process of communicating the will of the council before he became a god, should have a method of determining magical domination but not regular domination, and wrote it all down, but you think the vampires who read the book of how this works will have managed to miss the paragraph mentioning that Dvalin checks for it before the will of the council is accepted?

Sorry, but your scenario simply doesn't pass the plausibility check.

ETA :

I read that comment as "not going would be negligence of duty, which would be ground for not being matriarch anymore which would mean no more access to the wealth and influence of the clan which happens to be vast because it is a major clan". Do you read it as "only major clans attend"?
Yes, yes I do. Mostly because a society of about 10 million would have thousands of clans, and I can't imagine more than 50 heads of clans showing up. In fact, 50 seems to be an overestimation, if "half+1" dominated ones took the vampires a couple of hours. There aren't streaming masses of representatives coming into the tower; rather, they all seem to have arrived, and if each of them brought an assistant and a couple of bodyguards, and there were thousands, the bodies would be piled up rafter high.


:smallconfused: Those institutions tend to have representative from all the clans/tribes/families/states/whatever division of the population that articular society uses not just the richest (though those are generally the one who matter the most).
No, no they don't. They had representatives from the full diversity when they were created, but by the time they become a useless remnant of the old ways long since left behind, they stop being representative because no-one bothers to update the rolls or the procedures to make sure they are representative (indeed, usually they are left behind precisely because they aren't representative, and they resist being updated).

Take my usual stand in for this council, the Roman Senate in the late Empire, which was literally composed of rich guys from Rome... well after Rome had stopped being anything other than a backwater town, with the Western Imperial court having been moved to Milan or Ravenna, and thus was formed primarily of old families but was not in any way representative of the broad population of the Roman Empire. Early on, I'm sure that every roman tribe had a representative or two somewhere in the Senate (back when those tribes were 35 of them, with one being "everybody else"). But by late Roman Empire? I doubt most people new or cared what tribe they belonged to.

Grey Wolf

[Mad Humanist]

SO this voting thing will be done by a spell as we saw in the Godsmoot. Only in the Goodsmoot I suppose the takes over the High Priest's body, expresses their will, the High Priest verbalises it, the other High Priests hear it, the other Gods - in control of their respective High Priests' bodies - sense that and so the vote is broadcast.

But in this case the only God involved is Dvalin. Presumably the Deputy High Priest or some other officer will listen to the votes and transmit it upto Dvalin. Let's call this officer the Channeler. I'm guessing the Clan Elders are not involved in the spell directly because that would raise the question of how the spell interacted with vampires. I'm guessing the Giant will not want to get into that because that would take the story away from the Order.

Then the question is how how much control does the Channeller have? Can they go "Ooh those people look like they are dominated by them those Vampires. I wonder if I could have a chat with Dvalin." I doubt it because that would distract the story from the Order. It seems likely that the spell will manage the counting of votes in the channeler's brain and immediately transmit it to Dvalin.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

SO this voting thing will be done by a spell as we saw in the Godsmoot. Only in the Goodsmoot I suppose the takes over the High Priest's body, expresses their will, the High Priest verbalises it, the other High Priests hear it, the other Gods - in control of their respective High Priests' bodies - sense that and so the vote is broadcast.

But in this case the only God involved is Dvalin. Presumably the Deputy High Priest or some other officer will listen to the votes and transmit it upto Dvalin. Let's call this officer the Channeler. I'm guessing the Clan Elders are not involved in the spell directly because that would raise the question of how the spell interacted with vampires. I'm guessing the Giant will not want to get into that because that would take the story away from the Order.

Then the question is how how much control does the Channeller have? Can they go "Ooh those people look like they are dominated by them those Vampires. I wonder if I could have a chat with Dvalin." I doubt it because that would distract the story from the Order. It seems likely that the spell will manage the counting of votes in the channeler's brain and immediately transmit it to Dvalin.

I've liked the proposed idea that the will of the council will be expressed via smoke, similar to the vote for pope (sorry, not sure who suggested it). The channeller, if so, would come to the council, tell them the yay-or-nay vote, then leave. The council debates, then burns a fire either white for yes or black for no, and Dvalin watches for the smoke from afar.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Look, you're totally entitled to your opinion, but I'm just not seeing it that way.


Similarly, I'm not a fan of the idea that an incredibly Lawful king of an incredibly Lawful society who was so much a paragon that he became deified by his people would have a "but I can nullify the vote if I think there's some shenanigans going on, don't worry, totally won't abuse that power, I just want sole discretion over the final word despite that I said I'd always let you guys vote on it."

[hroþila]

I don't think there needs to be a formal clause, just Dvalin making the probably unprecedented but clearly justified decision (in a scenario where he's aware of what's going on) of annulling a vote which, as conducted, doesn't and can't represent the will of the council.

[Aveline]

Similarly, I'm not a fan of the idea that an incredibly Lawful king of an incredibly Lawful society who was so much a paragon that he became deified by his people would have a "but I can nullify the vote if I think there's some shenanigans going on, don't worry, totally won't abuse that power, I just want sole discretion over the final word despite that I said I'd always let you guys vote on it."

I agree with this.


I don't think there needs to be a formal clause, just Dvalin making the probably unprecedented but clearly justified decision (in a scenario where he's aware of what's going on) of annulling a vote which, as conducted, doesn't and can't represent the will of the council.

I don't agree with this, especially in light of Grey Wolf's point about potentially tampering with the vote with a Bluff check, within the confines of "council's will". I believe this is where the phrase "haggling over price" applies.

I also find it very dubious that it would be clearly justified to make an unprecedented nullification, not just in and of itself, but also because I don't think Dvalin is aware of the domination plan (I used to but now I think that was mistaken).

[hroþila]

I don't agree with this, especially in light of Grey Wolf's point about potentially tampering with the vote with a Bluff check, within the confines of "council's will". I believe this is where the phrase "haggling over price" applies.

I also find it very dubious that it would be clearly justified to make an unprecedented nullification, not just in and of itself, but also because I don't think Dvalin is aware of the domination plan (I used to but now I think that was mistaken).
Well, I disagree with Grey Wolf's point and I was talking about a scenario where Dvalin knew*, so I guess we have to fight now.


*I think he probably doesn't know, although I also think that it's a bit silly that he doesn't know.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't agree with this, especially in light of Grey Wolf's point about potentially tampering with the vote with a Bluff check, within the confines of "council's will". I believe this is where the phrase "haggling over price" applies.

Indeed. Heck, I'm itching to open the can of worms of how you simply cannot express the will of any group as an up-or-down question because it is never that simple, but I'd be so political I'd be red texted for sure. I had a whole paragraph on Brexit I had to delete.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

I've liked the proposed idea that the will of the council will be expressed via smoke, similar to the vote for pope (sorry, not sure who suggested it)
Votes for Pope are not expressed via smoke. The smoke signal is the for the benefit of the news cameras, so that the TV stations can report whether a new Pope has been elected before the Cardinals announce who it is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Votes for Pope are not expressed via smoke. The smoke signal is the for the benefit of the news cameras, so that the TV stations can report whether a new Pope has been elected before the Cardinals announce who it is.

Fair enough; the process are not 1-to-1. Still, I like the idea of using a visual indicator to inform Dvalin that means he's told from afar so he can't influence their decision.

(That said, I'm fairly certain that the papal election process predates TV stations by a fair bit)

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I don't think there needs to be a formal clause, just Dvalin making the probably unprecedented but clearly justified decision (in a scenario where he's aware of what's going on) of annulling a vote which, as conducted, doesn't and can't represent the will of the council.

I find the idea of an out-of-nowhere outside-of-the-defined-system power grab to be even less likely than a formal clause.

[Malphegor]

Dang, the purple worm looks a good deal more impressive than I've been imagining it whenever anyone mentions it.

[hamishspence]

Dang, the purple worm looks a good deal more impressive than I've been imagining it whenever anyone mentions it.

This creature looks a bit different from regular purple worms.

The purple worm we saw in the Empire of Blood:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html

may have been oversized some.

[hroþila]

I find the idea of an out-of-nowhere outside-of-the-defined-system power grab to be even less likely than a formal clause.
I don't think "power grab" is a fair characterization of what this would entail or how it would be perceived by anybody involved, except by Hel. Seems to me like the obvious way to deal with an unprecedented emergency, and better at respecting the spirit of the oath than just rolling over and taking it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think "power grab" is a fair characterization of what this would entail or how it would be perceived by anybody involved, except by Hel. Seems to me like the obvious way to deal with an unprecedented emergency, and better at respecting the spirit of the oath than just rolling over and taking it.

An obvious way to deal with an unprecedented emergency is to not hold a vote asking the dwarves if they want to go to Hel and take 10 million souls with them, and yet here we are. If he is Lawful enough to follow procedure in this occasion, I see no reason he'd break procedure just because the vampires found a loophole.

Assuming he even knows the latter, which is a big if.

Grey Wolf

[drazen]

This creature looks a bit different from regular purple worms.

The purple worm we saw in the Empire of Blood:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html

may have been oversized some.

It also has a black negative-energy aura. Some folks have said Nightshade or Nightcrawler but I'm not familiar enough with the Monster Manual to know. However, Hel "made" it and she makes undead spirits, so I'm guessing they're probably on to something there.

[Peelee]

An obvious way to deal with an unprecedented emergency is to not hold a vote asking the dwarves if they want to go to Hel and take 10 million souls with them, and yet here we are. If he is Lawful enough to follow procedure in this occasion, I see no reason he'd break procedure just because the vampires found a loophole.

Assuming he even knows the latter, which is a big if.

Grey Wolf

Exactly. If Dvalin doesn't draw the line at "I wont vote for or against universal Dwarven damnation unless they tell me to," then there's no reason to think he'd draw the line at "they told me to." That would relegate the council of elders to a non-essential formality that can be discarded at any time of Dvalin wishes.

[hamishspence]

It also has a black negative-energy aura. Some folks have said Nightshade or Nightcrawler but I'm not familiar enough with the Monster Manual to know. However, Hel "made" it and she makes undead spirits, so I'm guessing they're probably on to something there.

Nightcrawler stats:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler

If we start seeing some of these abilities being used, odds are it's a nightcrawler rather a templated version of one of the various other worms.

[hroþila]

An obvious way to deal with an unprecedented emergency is to not hold a vote asking the dwarves if they want to go to Hel and take 10 million souls with them, and yet here we are. If he is Lawful enough to follow procedure in this occasion, I see no reason he'd break procedure just because the vampires found a loophole.

Assuming he even knows the latter, which is a big if.

Grey Wolf
I disagree, because there are legitimate reasons why a dwarf might prefer to vote Yes (not even altruistically). That loophole you mention renders the whole "will of the council" thing moot.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, yes I do. Mostly because a society of about 10 million would have thousands of clans, and I can't imagine more than 50 heads of clans showing up. In fact, 50 seems to be an overestimation, if "half+1" dominated ones took the vampires a couple of hours. There aren't streaming masses of representatives coming into the tower; rather, they all seem to have arrived, and if each of them brought an assistant and a couple of bodyguards, and there were thousands, the bodies would be piled up rafter high.
I hadn't considered that. I could argue that this rests on how big a clan is, but taking your "fifty clans" figure, I don't see the representant of 200, 000 people only having two bodyguards in low-level armour if they are still relevant and we know from Hilgya's and Gontor's story that clanic affiliation is an important part of dwarven social structure (and given they were talking marriage, another argument in favor of small-ish clans). I have to concede that not all clans will be represented.



after Rome had stopped being anything other than a backwater town
Now, that's an undue characterization, Rome stopped being the siege of Imperial power, true, but it was still the Urbs, the Eternal City, symbol of the Roman Empire and what it stood for.

I've liked the proposed idea that the will of the council will be expressed via smoke, similar to the vote for pope (sorry, not sure who suggested it).

Glad you like it.

Votes for Pope are not expressed via smoke. The smoke signal is the for the benefit of the news cameras, so that the TV stations can report whether a new Pope has been elected before the Cardinals announce who it is.My (completely unsupported, don't take my word on that) guess is that the smoke is meant as a"alreight, we're done you can let us out now" signal since the cardinals are supposed to be locked in during the vote. Also it looks cool.

"haggling over price"
I know what this means and where it comes from but is it me or has it just kept popping up here these last few days? Funny how these things work.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I disagree, because there are legitimate reasons why a dwarf might prefer to vote Yes (not even altruistically). That loophole you mention renders the whole "will of the council" thing moot.

No it doesn't, because "will of the council" does not mean, and cannot possibly mean, exactly the same as "will of the individual members of the council". "The council" is not an individual, it does not have a will of its own, and it cannot be dominated, because it is an abstract concept. Individual heads of clans who are members of the council, can be dominated or blackmailed, but Dvalin did not say he'd obey "the wills of every member of the council".

The "will of the council" will mean something along the lines of "the aggregate votes of the members". That the members vote according to their will or their interest or their blackmailer's interest is absolutely allowed by Dvalin's words, because there is no way to encapsulate 50 different wills into a unified whole that retains the individual wills, so Dvalin the king would not have expected them to.

ETA:

Now, that's an undue characterization, Rome stopped being the siege of Imperial power, true, but it was still the Urbs, the Eternal City, symbol of the Roman Empire and what it stood for.

It was still an economic and political backwater, no matter how important culturally or symbolically it remained, I'd say. But also wildly off-topic and dangerously political.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

The glory of Rome is never off topic!

But more on-topic, I hope it's a nightcrawler. I'm itching to see a fight against a giant monster that will be a massive challenge for the Order.

[zimmerwald1915]

It was still an economic and political backwater, no matter how important culturally or symbolically it remained, I'd say. But also wildly off-topic and dangerously political.
As long as the Bishopric => Papacy was headquartered in Rome (there were times when it was not), the curia (court) and the treasury, through which passed wealth and coin from all over Western Europe, made the city important economically. Certainly the city declined in population from the height of the Empire, but most cities in the West did going into the early Medieval period. It was a question of when - and when and whether they rebounded. Ravenna never really became important again after it lost the Western Roman court, for instance, but Milan did, and some important cities of mid-to-late Medieval Italy (including Florence) were never important Roman towns.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As long as the Bishopric => Papacy was headquartered in Rome (there were times when it was not), the curia (court) and the treasury, through which passed wealth and coin from all over Western Europe, made the city important economically.

AFAICR, late Rome Emperors didn't keep their treasury in Rome. Some took it with them, some kept it in their capitals, but Rome wasn't either. If you are thinking of coin manufacturing, coin production was decentralized to facilitate paying the troops all over the place without having to cart gold from Rome (and the mint in Rome was shuttered by Constantine, IIRC, when they tried to revolt).

In the rate Roman Empire, too, the papacy did not have the punch it had in the medieval times (indeed, Ambrose, the Bishop of Milan was far, far more important than the Pope during the Crisis of the 4th century).

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

AFAICR, late Rome Emperors didn't keep their treasury in Rome.
Which is why I was talking about the Bishopric's and later the Papacy's treasury.


In the rate Roman Empire, too, the papacy did not have the punch it had in the medieval times (indeed, Ambrose, the Bishop of Milan was far, far more important than the Pope during the Crisis of the 4th century).
Fair enough. FWIW, I was thinking of the early Medieval period more than the late Empire - perhaps the Very Latest Empire.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

FWIW, I was thinking of the early Medieval period more than the late Empire - perhaps the Very Latest Empire.

Oh, I missed that. Sorry, yes, I'm sure there was quite the difference between Late Empire and post-Empire in what constituted centers of power in Western Europe. And I know so little about the latter that I can't comment on it.

Grey Wolf

[Doug Lampert]

Take my usual stand in for this council, the Roman Senate in the late Empire, which was literally composed of rich guys from Rome... well after Rome had stopped being anything other than a backwater town, with the Western Imperial court having been moved to Milan or Ravenna, and thus was formed primarily of old families but was not in any way representative of the broad population of the Roman Empire. Early on, I'm sure that every roman tribe had a representative or two somewhere in the Senate (back when those tribes were 35 of them, with one being "everybody else"). But by late Roman Empire? I doubt most people new or cared what tribe they belonged to.

I think the parallels are closer then you're saying (which, since you appear to study Roman government you're probably aware of). The Roman Senate was never a representative body.

It was from the start a club where the rich, old, and politically influential got together to make recommendations to the government. (In various emergencies the Senate did take actual authority, for example, the Senate appointed Dictators and voted on who got to be king back when there was a king. But it was supposed to be an advisory body and although the advice had substantial force in many cases it never held the force of law.)

Note that the names senate and senator come from senex (which basically means: old man or more respectfully in English: elder). The purpose of the senate was supposed to be to let experienced leaders and politicians advise the actual rulers.

You got to be a member by finishing a term in one of the higher (elected) offices and having enough money to qualify as an equestrian (which pretty well all the higher officers did), and by being appointed by a consul (early republic) or censor (later republic-early empire) or the emperor (later empire).

Since the elective offices were somewhat representative, the Senate may have been somewhat representative, but if so it was merely a side effect of elections determining who qualified and who selected the members. AKA no more representative than the US Supreme Court (and similarly for life baring misbehavior).

I suspect that the Council of Clans was NEVER all that representative, that only the "important" clan heads ever got a voice, and that it's loss of relevance has little effect on the membership other than to make people less likely to worry all that much about getting it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

since you appear to study Roman government you're probably aware of

Let me clarify my knowledge here so everyone is aware of how much to trust what I'm saying: my knowledge on this topic comes almost exclusively from the History of Rome podcast and the Historia Civilis yourtube channel. I think they are decent sources of knowledge, but I am neither a student of the topic, nor in any way, shape or form an authority.


I suspect that the Council of Clans was NEVER all that representative, that only the "important" clan heads ever got a voice, and that it's loss of relevance has little effect on the membership other than to make people less likely to worry all that much about getting it.

Heck, I suspect the reason the dwarves went parliamentary was because the clan heads council was so grossly unrepresentative. But YMMV, that's just my headcanon.

(oh, and in case it's not obvious, I agree with what you said, as far s I understand/remember roman politics).

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Let me clarify my knowledge here so everyone is aware of how much to trust what I'm saying: my knowledge on this topic comes almost exclusively from the History of Rome podcast and the Historia Civilis yourtube channel. I think they are decent sources of knowledge, but I am neither a student of the topic, nor in any way, shape or form an authority.

Grey Wolf

Ah, a formal education, I see! Carry on, doctor.:smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

... the papacy did not have the punch it had in the medieval times (indeed, Ambrose, the Bishop of Milan was far, far more important than the Pope during the Crisis of the 4th century). Grey Wolf FWIW, I am currently reading a book on the dark ages. The author points to the time of Gregory the Great (as the Ostrogoths were beginning to lose their grip and Lombards increase theres, and the Imperial seat in Constantinople kept getting distracted by Persian and Frankish and Othergothic incursions) as when the bishop of rome really anchored that position which is seen in that later era. Yeah, we are well off topic, but I think the smoke thing began circa 1054 when the curia took back the 'who picks the pope' stick from the German emperors. Or not. Might have the dates on that mixed up with something else.

[Ruck]

Let me clarify my knowledge here so everyone is aware of how much to trust what I'm saying: my knowledge on this topic comes almost exclusively from the History of Rome podcast and the Historia Civilis yourtube channel. I think they are decent sources of knowledge, but I am neither a student of the topic, nor in any way, shape or form an authority.


Ah, a formal education, I see! Carry on, doctor.:smalltongue:

I get all my knowledge on historical topics from falling asleep to the History Channel, so I'm pretty sure Rome is actually both Hitler and aliens.

[georgie_leech]

I get all my knowledge on historical topics from falling asleep to the History Channel, so I'm pretty sure Rome is actually both Hitler and aliens.

But not Alien Hitler; that's a different guy.

[schmunzel]

No, it is exactly the same. That's why domination has a will check. The councilors do have the opportunity to use their wills to break free. Just like a councilor whose family member has been kidnapped to force him to vote a certain way could have the will to let them die rather than be blackmailed.

You are trying to draw a line where you redefine "the will of the council", for no apparent reason other than what is bending the will of the council right now is one type and not the other. But In OotS, magic and political blackmail have identical results. Reminder: stratospheric bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) can have the same results, and the magic was not in their belief (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0768.html). Haley could talk half the council into voting for world destruction and there is nothing Dvalin could do about it, nor even tell it had happened.


<snip>

Grey Wolf

When I (Meta) read the ExExarchs comment in the proper way - then I have to assume that the place was build/designed in a way to accomodate cheating on the vote.

it would be odd if these were build despite Dvalin annulating the votes after being cast (manipulated)


I get all my knowledge on historical topics from falling asleep to the History Channel, so I'm pretty sure Rome is actually both Hitler and aliens.

Actually Hitler employed Roman Aliens who in the latter stages were put on steroids.

Never trust the tv.
Lots of halve knowledge werever you look!

sch

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When I (Meta) read the ExExarchs comment in the proper way - then I have to assume that the place was build/designed in a way to accomodate cheating on the vote.

it would be odd if these were build despite Dvalin annulating the votes after being cast (manipulated)

sch

I am wary of reading too much into conclusions drawn by vampires, given that Greg was absolutely convinced that Durkon was "secretly thrilled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html)" of Greg's actions. The combination of worst impulses, chip on the shoulder and lack of true experience means that their conclusions tend to be rather shakey and coloured by their own (lack of) perspective.

Instead, I would suspect that the building is the result of compromises between various factions suspicious of each other, outsiders, insiders, magic, might, and everything in between. Because that's what is usually is the case.

Think RL passwords: we know passwords are terrible for security. But we still use them, because they are a compromise between no security, full security, and what can be reasonably requested of non-aware users. If one saw how passwords work, one could (but shouldn't) conclude "this was designed to allow for people to be hacked". No it wasn't, it has grown to be easily hacked, because of endless chains of decisions and bad choices.

(ETA: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity")

Grey Wolf, happy to have found a non-political example for once.

[schmunzel]

Votes for Pope are not expressed via smoke. The smoke signal is the for the benefit of the news cameras, so that the TV stations can report whether a new Pope has been elected before the Cardinals announce who it is.

That was as far as I remember the expressely stated reason when they started to burn used ballots back in the 13th century after voting!!
(True enough they use chemicals since 1963 for probably exactly your stated reason)




I am wary of reading too much into conclusions drawn by vampires, given that Greg was absolutely convinced that Durkon was "secretly thrilled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html)" of Greg's actions. The combination of worst impulses, chip on the shoulder and lack of true experience means that their conclusions tend to be rather shakey and coloured by their own (lack of) perspective.

<snip>
Yes.

BUT

While im far from being an expert on story telling
I would have thought that that was Rhichs way of giving us some information.
(Or just lampshading us)


As long as the Bishopric => Papacy was headquartered in Rome (there were times when it was not), the curia (court) and the treasury, through which passed wealth and coin from all over Western Europe, made the city important economically. Certainly the city declined in population from the height of the Empire, but most cities in the West did going into the early Medieval period. It was a question of when - and when and whether they rebounded. Ravenna never really became important again after it lost the Western Roman court, for instance, but Milan did, and some important cities of mid-to-late Medieval Italy (including Florence) were never important Roman towns.

Are you guys now

a) historians
b) literary scholars
c) social scientist
d) political science guys or
e) any combination of the above

for I certainly cant tell
and I always thought that common knowledge was so abysmal in the US ....


sch

[Fyraltari]

Are you guys now

a) historians
b) literary scholars
c) social scientist
d) political science guys or
e) any combination of the above

for I certainly cant tell
and I always thought that common knowledge was so abysmal in the US ....


sch

Zim is a lawyer and Wolf is not from the U.S. (I think. I know English is not their Native Language).
Also I know it's fun to bash america (it really is) but all americans can't be uneducated.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

While im far from being an expert on story telling
I would have thought that that was Rhichs way of giving us some information.
(Or just lampshading us)

In the same way that Xykon is not the authority he thinks he is on Power, nor Tarquin the authority he thinks he is on storytelling, at this point, the mala fides of vampires has, I think, been well established enough that this feels more like those two examples than word-of-author through their mouths.


in the US

Not from the US, but I am also none of those things in your list.

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

Nightcrawler stats:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler

If we start seeing some of these abilities being used, odds are it's a nightcrawler rather a templated version of one of the various other worms.

What if it's a nightcrawler with a template!?

[Peelee]

What if it's a nightcrawler with a template!?

Because that's what the MitD is and I doubt the Giant would use it twice.

[Gnoman]

I am wary of reading too much into conclusions drawn by vampires, given that Greg was absolutely convinced that Durkon was "secretly thrilled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html)" of Greg's actions.

I don't think the vampire was staring "this is how my dwarf is" there. Rather, I think that it was an observation of a common type of reaction - less aggressively fighting the vamp, but not embracing it like Ponchula's host was.

The tone I got was "Why can't my dwarf be normal.

[Doug Lampert]

Because that's what the MitD is and I doubt the Giant would use it twice.

Seriously? I thought it was well known to be a Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon or possibly a Paragon Phrenic Pseudonatural Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form/Chimeric Giant Giant Shadow Awoken Bonsai.

I mean, both of those seem far more likely to me than a templated nightcrawler, a nightcrawler wouldn't fit under the umbrella even if it is dungeonbred.

[Peelee]

Seriously? I thought it was well known to be a Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon

Well sure, but what do you think the other half is? Well, the other half-half-half-half-half, really.

[Doug Lampert]

Well sure, but what do you think the other half is? Well, the other half-half-half-half-half, really.


It's green dragons all the way down.

Or maybe the other half is turtle. Dragon turtle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTurtle.htm) to be precise.

[Peelee]

It's green dragons all the way down.

Or maybe the other half is turtle. Dragon turtle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTurtle.htm) to be precise.

Of course that's what someone from Meridianville would think. I bet they'd say otherwise in Centerville.

And neither of those are even in the middle of Alabama, that's Montevallo!

[Doug Lampert]

Of course that's what someone from Meridianville would think. I bet they'd say otherwise in Centerville.

And neither of those are even in the middle of Alabama, that's Montevallo!

I find myself unable to argue with logic like that.

[Peelee]

I find myself unable to argue with logic like that.

No logic at all tends to be unbeatable, yes. :smalltongue:

For reals, though, I didn't actually know we had a Meridianville and had to make a Centerville crack when I noticed that. Always cool to see another AL resident on here!

[hroþila]

No it doesn't, because "will of the council" does not mean, and cannot possibly mean, exactly the same as "will of the individual members of the council". "The council" is not an individual, it does not have a will of its own, and it cannot be dominated, because it is an abstract concept. Individual heads of clans who are members of the council, can be dominated or blackmailed, but Dvalin did not say he'd obey "the wills of every member of the council".

The "will of the council" will mean something along the lines of "the aggregate votes of the members". That the members vote according to their will or their interest or their blackmailer's interest is absolutely allowed by Dvalin's words, because there is no way to encapsulate 50 different wills into a unified whole that retains the individual wills, so Dvalin the king would not have expected them to.

Yeah, I've read those arguments before and personally I don't find them convincing, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Rrmcklin]

Yeah, I've read those arguments before and personally I don't find them convincing, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Same. For me, it all depends on how the Council gets the question, and how Davlin receives their answer. I'm fairly confident there will be a satisfying answer to both of those questions, but I still find the insistence some people have that those somehow aren't things worth wondering about bewildering.

And something like "Davlin won't care if someone's being forced to vote a certain way because he'd expect such things" is a hugely unsatisfying stretch, if I'm being honest.

[Kish]

I think Dvalin would care if someone was being forced to vote a certain way if such came to his attention.

I doubt he makes any efforts to bring such to his attention. If his eyes were constantly, or even perennially, on the Council, that in and of itself would influence at least some councilors to vote the way they thought the freaking GOD watching them wanted.

(Yes, demigod, I know. In D&D and in OotS that means lowest-rank god, not mortal child of a god, so, god.)

[Fyraltari]

I don't think the vampire was staring "this is how my dwarf is" there. Rather, I think that it was an observation of a common type of reaction - less aggressively fighting the vamp, but not embracing it like Ponchula's host was.

The tone I got was "Why can't my dwarf be normal.
He says he’s jealous. He already said that he believed Durkon is no different from him because ‘you are who are on your worst day’. Of course these vampires assume the wort of people, that’s who they are: the worst of people.

[Gnoman]

He says he’s jealous. He already said that he believed Durkon is no different from him because ‘you are who are on your worst day’. Of course these vampires assume the wort of people, that’s who they are: the worst of people.

He's jealous because the other vampire's dwarf is not fighting at all. It could be rephrased as "Your dwarf isn't fighting you tooth and nail, is she? No? Not even in a half-hearted "actually enjoying it kind of way", which doesn't require him to think that Durkon is really enjoying it.

[Rrmcklin]

He's jealous because the other vampire's dwarf is not fighting at all. It could be rephrased as "Your dwarf isn't fighting you tooth and nail, is she? No? Not even in a half-hearted "actually enjoying it kind of way", which doesn't require him to think that Durkon is really enjoying it.

That was my take on that exchange as well.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think Dvalin would care if someone was being forced to vote a certain way if such came to his attention.

I doubt he makes any efforts to bring such to his attention. If his eyes were constantly, or even perennially, on the Council, that in and of itself would influence at least some councilors to vote the way they thought the freaking GOD watching them wanted.

(Yes, demigod, I know. In D&D and in OotS that means lowest-rank god, not mortal child of a god, so, god.)

He might care but it doesn't mean he'd violate his rules if they are being followed to the letter.

I, for one, don't think this whole arc will be made pointless by Dvalin simply saying "on second thought, nevermind, I won't listen to my council".

[Gnoman]

He might care but it doesn't mean he'd violate his rules if they are being followed to the letter.

I suspect that Dvalin can't ignore the vote, just like Odin couldn't ignore the whole "magic is for losers" notion of the last world. Gods are shaped by belief, and the Dwarves probably believe him to be immensely lawful and completely bound by the rules.

[Rrmcklin]

I suspect that Dvalin can't ignore the vote, just like Odin couldn't ignore the whole "magic is for losers" notion of the last world. Gods are shaped by belief, and the Dwarves probably believe him to be immensely lawful and completely bound by the rules.

Not really the same thing, I think. People have been taking the "shaped by belief" thing much further than I think it was actually intended. There's nothing saying that literally every trait that every god has is the product of mortal belief.

[Fyraltari]

He's jealous because the other vampire's dwarf is not fighting at all. It could be rephrased as "Your dwarf isn't fighting you tooth and nail, is she? No? Not even in a half-hearted "actually enjoying it kind of way", which doesn't require him to think that Durkon is really enjoying it.

The "that thing were" implies personal experience though, and I don't see where Durkon* would get knowledge of the usual vampire/host interaction from.

Besides "assume people around them are just pretending to be good" is both a classic "vilain" marker and fits extremely well with his character, and how would he know someone isn't secretely thrilled?

Edit: He is after all acting on Durkon's worst impulse, what he is doing is something Durkon wants somewhere and since Durkon* doesn't have the other wants of durkon, of course he'll assume Durkon is enjoying this.

[Rrmcklin]

The "that thing were" implies personal experience though, and I don't see where Durkon* would get knowledge of the usual vampire/host interaction from.

Besides "assume people around them are just pretending to be good" is both a classic "vilain" marker and fits extremely well with his character, and how would he know someone isn't secretely thrilled?

Edit: He is after all acting on Durkon's worst impulse, what he is doing is something Durkon wants somewhere and since Durkon* doesn't have the other wants of durkon, of course he'll assume Durkon is enjoying this.

The whole "outwardly protesting, but internally enjoying it" thing appears fairly often in fiction, and this comic is known for reference such things, even when the characters should have no such knowledge of it.

It's entirely possible Greg thought that's what Durkon was doing, but I find it more likely he was just referencing the trope because, again, characters do things like that all the time here.

[Mariele]

Re: re: re: Greg's meaning in that one line--I agree with Rrmcklin. That was how I took it, too. It seemed like he was complaining because he got a "bad" (aka genuinely Good) host and his "experience" was just the rudimentary trope-savviness that all the villains seem to have in this comic. But I can see how you would interpret it otherwise, too.


I get all my knowledge on historical topics from falling asleep to the History Channel, so I'm pretty sure Rome is actually both Hitler and aliens.
Damn, brutal but not false. :smalltongue: For real, though, part of the reason why I even bother to read these forums is to see some interesting conversations like the one zimmerwald and GW were having--where do you guys tend to pick up this knowledge?


It's green dragons all the way down.
This is one of my favorite jokes and I'm very happy to see it referenced here. :smallbiggrin:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

where do you guys tend to pick up this knowledge?

As I said earlier: the Historia Civilis (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv_vLHiWVBh_FR9vbeuiY-A) youtube channel and the History of Rome podcast (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-history-of-rome/id261654474?mt=2) (now with relevant links!).

The true question, I have discovered, is not "where I picked it up" but, as any number of friends have asked "how do I remember so much of it?". Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for that.

Grey Wolf

[Mariele]

Aye, I caught that--I mean in general, these odd bits of politics and history. Reading, mostly podcasts, events, etc? But thank you anyway. :smallsmile:

[Nimbus125]

I, for one, don't think this whole arc will be made pointless by Dvalin simply saying "on second thought, nevermind, I won't listen to my council".


Dvalin just deciding to ignore the council both weakens one of the major themes of this arc, the old way of blindly adhering to the rules is generally bad, and robs the main characters of the spotlight for no significant reason.

Over the course of this arc, and the whole comic to a lesser extent, we've repeatedly seen the problem with dwarves blindly following tradition. Because of this, they've accidentally both endangered the world and made it significantly more difficult to fix due to how (allegedly) air-tight the rules are. The heroes have seen and recognized this flaw and are working to fix it, before it's too late. However, if instead of the heroes showing the dwarves that their system is flawed, we have the very embodiment of rules and tradition suddenly wake up one day and decide "Hey maybe today I'll try ignoring tradition because that's the rational thing to do!" after centuries of making irrational decisions. It just comes out of left field and has no strong foundation for it; while there's nothing explicitly preventing dvalin from suddenly throwing out the rules, it has little to no setup due to dvalin being largely a non-character, meaning it would have a much weaker payoff than our heroes, who have worked most of this arc to fix these problems, being the ones to save the world.

As for it taking the spotlight away from the protagonists, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Side or secondary characters can drive and/or resolve a central conflict, but in order to do so, it has to mean something to said characters. For example, take Bard the bowman from the Hobbit. In the book, he's just a random character with maybe one whole page of screentime who shows up and slays Smaug. This is mostly okay in the context of the book, considering the purpose and audience of it, but would not have worked at all in a cinematic context. Because having unnamed or recently-named characters show up and magically save the day are almost always underwhelming at best, or deus ex machinas at worst. Dvalin rejecting the vote doesn't develop or say something about Dvalin's character, because Dvalin is barely a character at all. We care as much about Dvalin as we care about the Oil Steward (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0736.html). It could be funny sure, but generally not a great way to wrap up the penultimate conflict that's defined the past 200-odd strips



As I said earlier: the Historia Civilis (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv_vLHiWVBh_FR9vbeuiY-A) youtube channel and the History of Rome podcast (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-history-of-rome/id261654474?mt=2) (now with relevant links!).

The true question, I have discovered, is not "where I picked it up" but, as any number of friends have asked "how do I remember so much of it?". Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for that.

Grey Wolf


Thanks for reminding me to get off my butt and finish listening to History of Rome; it's a great podcast but I just stopped listening to it when winter break started

[lio45]

AFAICR, late Rome Emperors didn't keep their treasury in Rome. Some took it with them, some kept it in their capitals, but Rome wasn't either. If you are thinking of coin manufacturing, coin production was decentralized to facilitate paying the troops all over the place without having to cart gold from Rome (and the mint in Rome was shuttered by Constantine, IIRC, when they tried to revolt).

By the time of Constantine, most of the major mints were in the East. Though lots of Constantine coins were minted in Trier (nowadays, Germany), which isn't that surprising considering that's where he "got his start".

And speaking of "carting gold" from point A to point B: most coins by far weren't gold. Also, interesting factoid: for the better part of a century the one and only mint making gold coins in the entire empire was in Lyon.

I know that's off-topic, but I'm a Roman coin collector as a hobby, it's definitely one of my fields of interest :)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

most coins by far weren't gold.

True; Roman coin was nominally based in silver, although by the late Empire the silver content of silver coins was sub-5%, so "silver coin" is probably a misnomer as well.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, I've read those arguments before and personally I don't find them convincing, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯What I think is the key feature so far is that Durkon, who knows what the plan is and how the procedures are relevant to it, is worried about it (else he'd be convincing the Order to get back to tracking down Redcloak and Xykon).

I bring this up now/again because there is in fact a notable change in this comic: The Exarch had a means to block access, but was seeking a majority first. As a result, the indefinite delay tactic I was keeping an eye on is pretty much shot: Having a minimum number almost certainly means the Exarch is seeking a quorum, implying a quorum exists; and as such preventing a quorum (by, for example, murdering the elders as they come in) would have been a much more effective way keeping the vote open. By extension, I now seriously doubt that "the vote cannot be accepted until the elders are free of mental domination" is on the table.

So I'm seeing two main ways the plan could go:
The results of the vote are going to be accepted without awareness/regard of the domination, so the elders are supposed to vote "yes" on a main proposal to end the world.
The results of the vote are going to be reversed because of awareness/regard of the domination, so the elders are supposed to vote "yes" on a main proposal to spare the world.

Now, it is possible Dvalin wouldn't accept the Council's vote and that's not covered in the procedures; something which I only say because Durkon thinks the vampires' plan could work: The Order isn't in a position where they'll risk Dvalin solving it for them, so they'll still interfere with the vampires just they would if it was assured Dvalin was acting as a very small shell script glorified (deified?) mouthpiece. This does, however, have a severe problem: Revelation of that is going to undercut the impact of the Order's efforts and leave a bad taste on the arc. (To be fair, that's kind of how I feel about killing Durkon again in 1149 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html).) The only scenario where it would really be necessary to reveal is if the Order loses and the vote goes as the vampires plan...in which case, all the level loss is going to aggravate the sensation of undercutting (at best). Considering how easy it would be to simply not reveal this contingency if the Order stops the vampires and the vote-rigging....I really don't see this as a likely direction.

[Goblin_Priest]

Dvalin is lawful stupid. He's going to respect the letter of the law, even if he doesn't agree with the decisions, even if the spirit of the law is being violated.

In the end, it's still dwarves making the decision. So what if it's vampirified dwarves gaming the rules the coerce the traditional dwarves to vote a certain way? Everything so far seems to suggest that interference would only be really bad if it was done by non-dwarves. The Exarch had a point.

Dvallin could, quite simply, go "well played", and then vote to destroy the world.

Nothing of what we were shown of Dvalin, of the vampire's plot, the nature of the current world (and the multitude of prior ones), or of Rich's story-telling would leave us any reason to believe that Dvalin would reject the elder's vote.

Also, the allegations that the Order could somehow contact Dvalin and enlighten him puzzle me. A whole bunch of gods already know about this plot. If telling Dvalin had any use, they'd had already done so.

[Rrmcklin]

Dvalin is lawful stupid. He's going to respect the letter of the law, even if he doesn't agree with the decisions, even if the spirit of the law is being violated.

The issue is that we don't actually have a reason to assume that and, no, him still feeling the need to ask the Council does not mean he'd follow what they'd say even if he realized the spirit of the law/their wills would be violated. No, I do not consider wanting to uphold his oath, by itself, to be Lawful Stupid.


In the end, it's still dwarves making the decision. So what if it's vampirified dwarves gaming the rules the coerce the traditional dwarves to vote a certain way? Everything so far seems to suggest that interference would only be really bad if it was done by non-dwarves. The Exarch had a point.

Dvallin could, quite simply, go "well played", and then vote to destroy the world.


Nothing of what we were shown of Dvalin, of the vampire's plot, the nature of the current world (and the multitude of prior ones), or of Rich's story-telling would leave us any reason to believe that Dvalin would reject the elder's vote.

Also, the allegations that the Order could somehow contact Dvalin and enlighten him puzzle me. A whole bunch of gods already know about this plot. If telling Dvalin had any use, they'd had already done so.

The rest of your post works under the assumption that first part I highlighted. If you don't take that assumption as a given, or would consider it terrible writing, the rest of what you've said here falls a part.

We've been given one glimpse of Davlin; you taking that to he only cares about the letter of the law, wouldn't consider the will of the vampires manipulating the council as the will of the council, or go "well played' are entirely unsupported.

[zimmerwald1915]

The issue is that we don't actually have a reason to assume that and, no, him still feeling the need to ask the Council does not mean he'd follow what they'd say even if he realized the spirit of the law/their wills would be violated. No, I do not consider wanting to uphold his oath, by itself, to be Lawful Stupid.
Wanting to uphold his oath to the letter when the Council of Clans is not necessarily the body that should be heard on issues affecting "all the clans" is a strong evidence of Lawful Stupidity. As is the fact that he does this every time he is asked for his vote, no matter the importance of the issue. If it affects all the clans, off to the Council it goes.

[Aveline]

Dvalin is lawful stupid. He's going to respect the letter of the law, even if he doesn't agree with the decisions, even if the spirit of the law is being violated.

In the end, it's still dwarves making the decision. So what if it's vampirified dwarves gaming the rules the coerce the traditional dwarves to vote a certain way? Everything so far seems to suggest that interference would only be really bad if it was done by non-dwarves. The Exarch had a point.

Dvallin could, quite simply, go "well played", and then vote to destroy the world.

Nothing of what we were shown of Dvalin, of the vampire's plot, the nature of the current world (and the multitude of prior ones), or of Rich's story-telling would leave us any reason to believe that Dvalin would reject the elder's vote.

Also, the allegations that the Order could somehow contact Dvalin and enlighten him puzzle me. A whole bunch of gods already know about this plot. If telling Dvalin had any use, they'd had already done so.

Well... I'm on side "Dvalin would accept a decision to destroy the world", but I wouldn't go as far as all of that.

Dvalin's oath is to the Council, which was (presumably) the seat of government during his time. Not just any random dwarves.

"Lawful Stupid" is kind of unfair. There are strong cases for each side, from the perspectives of the gods, and frankly Heimdal gave a better statement than Loki. And Dvalin does not know how the Council even *would* rule in a legitimate procedure, hence the vote.

More likely than "Well played, the prize is yours" he would say "I don't understand the Council's motivations, but I need not. Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves, votes Yes."

[Peelee]

Wanting to uphold his oath to the letter when the Council of Clans is not necessarily the body that should be heard on issues affecting "all the clans" is a strong evidence of Lawful Stupidity. As is the fact that he does this every time he is asked for his vote, no matter the importance of the issue. If it affects all the clans, off to the Council it goes.

Huh, I'd have expected you to be more in favor or representative vote over a monarch deciding for themself(issues with the specific representative vote in question aside).

[Kish]

Huh, I'd have expected you to be more in favor or representative vote over a monarch deciding for themself(issues with the specific representative vote in question aside).
While I cannot speak for Zimmer, I consider the difference between absolute monarchy and oligarchy a lateral one at best.

[Peelee]

While I cannot speak for Zimmer, I consider the difference between absolute monarchy and oligarchy a lateral one at best.

Point taken, but now I'm interested in the "at worst."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Point taken, but now I'm interested in the "at worst."

"Semantical" would be my guess.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

While I cannot speak for Zimmer, I consider the difference between absolute monarchy and oligarchy a lateral one at best.Point taken, but now I'm interested in the "at worst."It's not unthinkable for a person to truly believe serving the people is their job, and act accordingly. If one person is an absolute monarch or other dictator, they have the ability to take a great many actions; if one person is an oligarch, they're a minority voice among the others.

[Peelee]

It's not unthinkable for a person to truly believe serving the people is their job, and act accordingly. If one person is an absolute monarch or other dictator, they have the ability to take a great many actions; if one person is an oligarch, they're a minority voice among the others.

It's also not unthinkable for a person to truly believe serving people is their job, and act in a way that they believe serves the people but does not in any way.

[Jasdoif]

It's also not unthinkable for a person to truly believe serving people is their job, and act in a way that they believe serves the people but does not in any way.Certainly, but that would be closer to lateral/"at best", I think. The "at worst" would be an oligarchy being able to crush its neophytes' honest attempts at improvement simply by sustaining the status quo, one neophyte at a time.

[hroþila]

Would it still count as an oligarchy if it turns out every clan is represented regardless of wealth or status*, and they all get the same power in the council? If that's still rule by the few, at least those few would represent the whole population and not just a few influential and rich families. Just asking because I'm not sure about the proper terminology.

*Not that in my headcanon all clans would actually be represented and get an equal vote, but still.

[Fyraltari]

Certainly, but that would be closer to lateral/"at best", I think. The "at worst" would be an oligarchy being able to crush its neophytes' honest attempts at improvement simply by sustaining the status quo, one neophyte at a time.
But an oligarchy isn't more representative than a monarchy.

Would it still count as an oligarchy if it turns out every clan is represented regardless of wealth or status*, and they all get the same power in the council? If that's still rule by the few, at least those few would represent the whole population and not just a few influential and rich families. Just asking because I'm not sure about the proper terminology.

*Not that in my headcanon all clans would actually be represented and get an equal vote, but still.

Well that depends on how the Elder are chosen (is it literally the Eldest person in the clan?) and how large a clan is. Because if a clan is a few thousand people and the Elder is simply the eldest child of the previous Elder then it definitely is an oligarchy.

[Mad Humanist]

Something just struck me.

You'd think even a Dwarf as pompous and self-important as the Matriach, would take some pride in being consulted by a god. So I wonder if most of these consultations are not from Dvalin. Maybe all internal Church of Dvalin matters have to be approved by the Council and that most of it is far less interesting than "Shall we destroy the world?". Maybe they also get consulted on designs for the Priests' frocks, and other matters that must get boring eventually.

[Peelee]

Well that depends on how the Elder are chosen (is it literally the Eldest person in the clan?) and how large a clan is. Because if a clan is a few thousand people and the Elder is simply the eldest child of the previous Elder then it definitely is an oligarchy.

All the elders in a clan vote on a representative elder, by a council of elders. It's councils of elders all the way down.

[Snails]

All the elders in a clan vote on a representative elder, by a council of elders. It's councils of elders all the way down.

Speak With Dead makes this even more practical, as you can name your chosen successor posthumously.

[Doug Lampert]

Point taken, but now I'm interested in the "at worst."

I'm not Kish, but historically the developing middle class in many countries supported absolute monarchs against aristocratic oligarchies because it was far better to have one big fish than a school of piranha.

Similarly, Greek city states, "tyrants" were typically supported by the commons and opposed by the established oligarchs (tyrant at that time and place meaning an individual ruler who wasn't a hereditary monarch, it's where we got the word).

The monarch has an interest in the welfare of the country. The oligarchs collectively have a similar interest, but individually are likely to serve their own interests over this collective interest, and there are a lot more of them.

The monarch tends to be better for almost everyone not part of the oligarchy.

[Snails]

Something just struck me.

You'd think even a Dwarf as pompous and self-important as the Matriach, would take some pride in being consulted by a god. So I wonder if most of these consultations are not from Dvalin. Maybe all internal Church of Dvalin matters have to be approved by the Council and that most of it is far less interesting than "Shall we destroy the world?". Maybe they also get consulted on designs for the Priests' frocks, and other matters that must get boring eventually.

Yes, I imagine that persons other than Dvalin himself can call these councils.

[zimmerwald1915]

Huh, I'd have expected you to be more in favor or representative vote over a monarch deciding for themself(issues with the specific representative vote in question aside).
I was alluding to there being a better representative body available in the form of the Parliament.

Though now that I think more about it, its mere existence does not imply universal suffrage - which is what made me think the Parliament was more representative of "all the Clans" than the Council.

[pendell]

I was alluding to there being a better representative body available in the form of the Parliament.

Though now that I think more about it, its mere existence does not imply universal suffrage - which is what made me think the Parliament was more representative of "all the Clans" than the Council.

"Representative" doesn't seem to be a big feature of OOTS. Consider for example that all three pantheons have exactly one vote. For all we know, the pantheon that voted against the proposal was unanimous, while the pantheon that voted for was 50%+1. In such a scenario, the popular will is overruled in favor of the arbitrary laws. The will of the majority of deities would be ignored, and we're not even factoring in the will of mortals or other spirits which might have an interest in the outcome.

Whatever else OOTS world is, a democracy it isn't.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

"Representative" doesn't seem to be a big feature of OOTS. Consider for example that all three pantheons have exactly one vote. For all we know, the pantheon that voted against the proposal was unanimous, while the pantheon that voted for was 50%+1. In such a scenario, the popular will is overruled in favor of the arbitrary laws. The will of the majority of deities would be ignored, and we're not even factoring in the will of mortals or other spirits which might have an interest in the outcome.

Whatever else OOTS world is, a democracy it isn't.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

This is because the gods must work together not as a communauty of 40-odd gods but as an alliance of 3-4 pantheons of different quiddities.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well... I'm on side "Dvalin would accept a decision to destroy the world", but I wouldn't go as far as all of that.

Dvalin's oath is to the Council, which was (presumably) the seat of government during his time. Not just any random dwarves.

"Lawful Stupid" is kind of unfair. There are strong cases for each side, from the perspectives of the gods, and frankly Heimdal gave a better statement than Loki. And Dvalin does not know how the Council even *would* rule in a legitimate procedure, hence the vote.

More likely than "Well played, the prize is yours" he would say "I don't understand the Council's motivations, but I need not. Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves, votes Yes."

A few threads back I listed four reasons why dwarves would vote to end the world. Magic was not involved. Bribery, getting out from under the bet, saving everyone else and the ego rush of knowing you are the one who killed all the goblins, ogres etc were.

[Rrmcklin]

A few threads back I listed four reasons why dwarves would vote to end the world. Magic was not involved. Bribery, getting out from under the bet, saving everyone else and the ego rush of knowing you are the one who killed all the goblins, ogres etc were.

1) What exactly are you bribing someone with that's still good when they and everyone they know is dead?
2) Getting who out from under the bet? Themselves, because they can already just challenge a monster or something, and the world being destroyed will just condemn all dwarves to Hel anyway.
3) You know, while I get the importance of souls, I highly doubt most people will actually consider killing everyone to save their souls as saving them. Because the (mortal) characters consider their lives distinct from their souls.
4) Not really sure how much of an ego rush that is when, again, they're dead too. I have to imagine the vast majority of people aren't so blood thirsty they'd literally doom their people to death just to kill the others along with them.

So, yeah, all of those reasons only work if you're assuming the dwarf in question is an imbecile with no sense of self-preservation, a psychopath, or both.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Or just working from incomplete information. Or willing to value the lives of uncounted generations of future dwarves in the next world more than their own. Et cetera.

[Rrmcklin]

Or just working from incomplete information. Or willing to value the lives of uncounted generations of future dwarves in the next world more than their own. Et cetera.

Even with incomplete information I find your scenarios implausible at best, and nonsensical at worst.

Your average person is not in the habit of valuing "potential future lives" over the lives of people actually alive right now.

[mjasghar]

Because that's what the MitD is and I doubt the Giant would use it twice.
Shots fired

[Dion]

a nightcrawler wouldn't fit under the umbrella even if it is dungeonbred.

What if it was half-dungeonbred, half-norwegian blue?

[zimmerwald1915]

What if it was half-dungeonbred, half-norwegian blue?
It would have beautiful plumage.

[Peelee]

What if it was half-dungeonbred, half-norwegian blue?

Half-dungeonbred, half-Norwegian blue, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon nightcrawler, you mean?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It would have beautiful plumage.

It's a bit stiff, though.

Grey Wolf

[Algeh]

Half-dungeonbred, half-Norwegian blue, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon nightcrawler, you mean?

No, it would need to be an Italian half-dungeonbred, half-Norwegian blue, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon nightcrawler to really fit all of the clues so far.

[Goblin_Priest]

Wanting to uphold his oath to the letter when the Council of Clans is not necessarily the body that should be heard on issues affecting "all the clans" is a strong evidence of Lawful Stupidity. As is the fact that he does this every time he is asked for his vote, no matter the importance of the issue. If it affects all the clans, off to the Council it goes.

"I'll damn destroy the world and damn every single dwarf to eternal torment if my archaic and non-representative council tells me to" doesn't sound lawful stupid to you? He even states he doesn't want to damn them, but his words suggest he would damn them anyways.


Well... I'm on side "Dvalin would accept a decision to destroy the world", but I wouldn't go as far as all of that.

Dvalin's oath is to the Council, which was (presumably) the seat of government during his time. Not just any random dwarves.

"Lawful Stupid" is kind of unfair. There are strong cases for each side, from the perspectives of the gods, and frankly Heimdal gave a better statement than Loki. And Dvalin does not know how the Council even *would* rule in a legitimate procedure, hence the vote.

More likely than "Well played, the prize is yours" he would say "I don't understand the Council's motivations, but I need not. Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves, votes Yes."

He could honestly have no idea about what they'd vote, but it seems more likely to me that he assumes they won't damn themselves, but is just following protocol.

The second part of your statement I have a problem with. It hinges on him not knowing what's going on. Which in turn implies that informing him could have an impact. Forgive my circular logic, but I don't think that informing him could have an impact, thus I see no reason to believe he doesn't know what happens among the elders. He is a god, after all, and if he's somehow too weak to gaze upon the vote (even the Dark One could gaze upon the rift he lost a cleric to), then other gods aware of the situation, like Thor or Odin, could just go to him and tell him.

So if you take instead the following premises:
1) Dvalin would be able to know, independent of the Order, that the elders are being dominated
2) This knowledge is irrelevant to his decision, because otherwise this whole arc is pointless and the Order would just have to wait for the vote to end and then be ignored.
3) The villains at work would not bother doing all of this if they did not believe it could work

I have a hard time coming to another conclusion than "he would follow the vote of a dominated council", which in turn pegs him strongly within "lawful stupid", which as others have said, is strongly imbibed in dwarven culture.


Dvalin's oath is to the Council, which was (presumably) the seat of government during his time. Not just any random dwarves.

To go back on that, though... It is unlikely that all dwarves were united under a single government. At most, it could be plausible that he was king of the only/first/all dwarven nation(s) at one point.

But that council doesn't rule anymore. So what happened? It wouldn't be very dwarf-like to do a revolution. And had they done one, then they probably wouldn't even have this council anymore anyways. They are very lawful, no? So if they ever devolved powers from the council, then one should presume that the council rubber-stamped this devolution? And if they did, then... Dvalin should be endorsing the decisions of whoever the council delegated powers to? Which are... wait, who again? Do we even know anything about current dwarven governance?

Unless... as king, he decided he would listen to a council he created, without giving said council any actual de jure existence or authority, and kept it merely as a personal oath that somehow wouldn't transfer to his successor...? Which would not really seem to match with what we know of dwarven society. And after all, if the council still exists today, then it means it had rules on how to keep existing and functioning without him.


Are...

Are we going to have a tiebreaker to the tiebreaker to the tiebreaker? If the dwarven council used something akin to english parliamentarism, then the house of commons gets to vote laws, but they still need royal ascent, which theoretically Dvalin could oppose, leaving the big vote tied...

Though that just brings us back to my prior point about the only meaningful resolution that could be had would be the Order saving the elders' ability to vote Yes.

[Dion]

Half-dungeonbred, half-Norwegian blue, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon nightcrawler, you mean?

Have you got anything without half-Green Dragon in it?

[zimmerwald1915]

Have you got anything without half-Green Dragon in it?
Well the half-Green Dragon, half-Green Dragon, sausage, and half-Green Dragon's not got much half-Green Dragon in it.

[Resileaf]

Y'know, I can theorize a reason why Dvalin wouldn't know whether the council voters are mind controlled or not. It would make sense that in his desire to be impartial and to not have any effect on the vote, he would ensure that he has no way of interfering with it, so that no one can accuse him of pressuring the council, and so the vote room would be entirely cut off from his sight, even as a deity. Some kind of limitation he would have forced on himself.

[Aveline]

I don't have any issue with your logics that I can tell, Goblin Priest - I guess I just don't accept either the premise that Dvalin is aware of the vampire plot or that voting to destroy the world would be inherently unreasonable from Dvalin's perspective.

I admit that the "plan awareness" thing is a bit of a sticking point that takes a small amount of forgiveness to be overcome. Faced with having to interpret the story for it to make sense, I go for "The gods' rules backfired and they aren't aware of a subversive threat" over "Dvalin is an idiot", although to be fair neither is that unrealistic.


Have you got anything without half-Green Dragon in it?

I think you're drifting into another sketch, sir.

[kenlund]

This is some serious interference with mortals on the prime material plane. Does this count as an equivalent with a cleric summoning a monster or celestial being even though Hel put it through the gate herself? It kind of seems like direct interference by Hel, but I suppose that Thor's storm that damaged the Mechane with lightning is probably equivalent and he got away with that.
All these rules the Gods have get confusing. Understanding the rules so you can manipulate them probably is one of the most powerful abilities in this world.

[Resileaf]

This is some serious interference with mortals on the prime material plane. Does this count as an equivalent with a cleric summoning a monster or celestial being even though Hel put it through the gate herself? It kind of seems like direct interference by Hel, but I suppose that Thor's storm that damaged the Mechane with lightning is probably equivalent and he got away with that.
All these rules the Gods have get confusing. Understanding the rules so you can manipulate them probably is one of the most powerful abilities in this world.

What Hel did was fully in the range of the Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) spell. Gontor opened the gate next to her, and she sent something through it.

[Riftwolf]

1) What exactly are you bribing someone with that's still good when they and everyone they know is dead?

Scrolls of Plane Shift?

[Goblin_Priest]

Y'know, I can theorize a reason why Dvalin wouldn't know whether the council voters are mind controlled or not. It would make sense that in his desire to be impartial and to not have any effect on the vote, he would ensure that he has no way of interfering with it, so that no one can accuse him of pressuring the council, and so the vote room would be entirely cut off from his sight, even as a deity. Some kind of limitation he would have forced on himself.

That makes little sense to me. 1-way scrying would not in any way influence the vote. And even if he did shield their council from divine scrying, including his own, that doesn't explain why Odin and Thor wouldn't tell him about the vampires' plan. Or, heck, even Loki could.


I don't have any issue with your logics that I can tell, Goblin Priest - I guess I just don't accept either the premise that Dvalin is aware of the vampire plot or that voting to destroy the world would be inherently unreasonable from Dvalin's perspective.

I admit that the "plan awareness" thing is a bit of a sticking point that takes a small amount of forgiveness to be overcome. Faced with having to interpret the story for it to make sense, I go for "The gods' rules backfired and they aren't aware of a subversive threat" over "Dvalin is an idiot", although to be fair neither is that unrealistic.

He is a deified rubber-stamper. He may simply be (meta)physically incapable of defying the council, even if he knows the vote to have been rigged.

Just think of RL equivalents. Say a big corporation buys off enough members of parliament to get a private bill passed. When it comes down to applying it, what's a judge gonna do? To defy the bill would be to defy the very foundation of the role he assumes, of the very values that govern his every day life. Every day, he gives to "The Law". As impartially and coherent as possible.

He's just a cog in the machine, in the end. An import one, theoretically powerful, but judges using the function to defy the law is almost unheard of, and saps the whole system and its legitimacy.

After all, is it really his role to police the members of parliament, and why they voted for a certain bill? He's there to apply the Law, not decide it.

OotS gods are, in ways, personified concepts, shaped by belief. I'm not sure he even could defy the council, even if he knew that they were dominated and wanted to defy it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

GP, I think you mean another word than "imbibed", which is to drink. Granted, dwaves do that all day long, but I doubt anything is imbibed to their culture. Would "imbued" work better? "Installed" perhaps?

[Fyraltari]

That makes little sense to me. 1-way scrying would not in any way influence the vote.
Yeah it would if the voters suspect it happens, hence why it would be forbidden. It especially would when Dvalin was a mortal so the interdiction might read "king Dvalin shall not, by any mean, attempt to learn the nature of each individual voter's vote", Dvalin would still consider himself bound by that.

And even if he did shield their council from divine scrying, including his own, that doesn't explain why Odin and Thor wouldn't tell him about the vampires' plan. Or, heck, even Loki could.
Odin is a loon, Thor is a drunk and Loki is Loki. All three of them voted "Nay" and two of them are directly responsible for his people plight. Even if his was willing to listen to them, why would he?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That makes little sense to me. 1-way scrying would not in any way influence the vote.

What on Earth?

You think that if a government put cameras in voting booths to record what every person was voting for, that wouldn't influence their votes?

Observing votes by someone with a stake in the result and the authority and power to do something about it most definitely influences vote behaviour.

Grey Wolf

[Xyril]

That makes little sense to me. 1-way scrying would not in any way influence the vote.


There's a ton of scientific literature on observer effects--how people act differently when they know they're being observed, how observers indirectly and unconsciously impact the study when they know what they're observing, etc. The implicit knowledge that your God-king could at any time watch how you voted--or even how you argued in the debate--has an influence on what people are willing to say or do. To me it's plausible that Dvalin, in an abundance of caution, promised his people that he would respect the confidentiality of that council hall, and in adherence to his probably LG nature, intends to keep that promise even when he has a compelling reason to break it.

[Rrmcklin]

Odin is a loon, Thor is a drunk and Loki is Loki. All three of them voted "Nay" and two of them are directly responsible for his people plight. Even if his was willing to listen to them, why would he?

Besides Odin, it's not like those things aren't common knowledge in Universe; Thor and Loki still have major clout. You're also assuming Davlin is privy to the bet. Davlin has also already expressed a personal desire to vote "no".

Also, that phrasing is weird "even if he was willing to listen to them, why would he (listen to them)? I don't get it.

[Dion]

It’s refreshing to see the discussion between people who think::

1) Dvalin won’t know
2) Dvalin will know, and will do nothing
3) Dvalin will know, and will do something

Without it devolving into people complaining about persecution.

But, I should point out that if you disagree with my opinion, you’re a bad person and you should feel bad. Also, you really need to stop persecuting me.

[Peelee]

1) Dvalin won’t know
2) Dvalin will know, and will do nothing
3) Dvalin will know, and will do something
4.) Dvalin may now, but can do nothing (I believe that's sufficiently different from 2).

But, I should point out that if you disagree with my opinion, you’re a bad person and you should feel bad.
https://media.giphy.com/media/w3Er0gW94cG8E/giphy.gif

[Rrmcklin]

"I'll damn destroy the world and damn every single dwarf to eternal torment if my archaic and non-representative council tells me to" doesn't sound lawful stupid to you? He even states he doesn't want to damn them, but his words suggest he would damn them anyways.

The concept of "I already figure how people will respond, but I still feel obliged to ask" is not in itself Lawful Stupid, no. Phrased another way, when the answer is obvious (and everyone has been treating the answer as obvious) there's normally no harm in asking either.


He could honestly have no idea about what they'd vote, but it seems more likely to me that he assumes they won't damn themselves, but is just following protocol.

The second part of your statement I have a problem with. It hinges on him not knowing what's going on. Which in turn implies that informing him could have an impact. Forgive my circular logic, but I don't think that informing him could have an impact, thus I see no reason to believe he doesn't know what happens among the elders. He is a god, after all, and if he's somehow too weak to gaze upon the vote (even the Dark One could gaze upon the rift he lost a cleric to), then other gods aware of the situation, like Thor or Odin, could just go to him and tell him.

So if you take instead the following premises:
1) Dvalin would be able to know, independent of the Order, that the elders are being dominated
2) This knowledge is irrelevant to his decision, because otherwise this whole arc is pointless and the Order would just have to wait for the vote to end and then be ignored.
3) The villains at work would not bother doing all of this if they did not believe it could work

I have a hard time coming to another conclusion than "he would follow the vote of a dominated council", which in turn pegs him strongly within "lawful stupid", which as others have said, is strongly imbibed in dwarven culture.

People have already been discussing, at length, why Davlin wouldn't be peering into the vote, and he didn't directly hear the vampires plans. Who knows, it might be possible that Davlin intentionally sequesters himself from all communications until the vote is over, just to be sure. I do, personally, have questions about how the Council receives the vote, and how he receives their answer, but that's a different issue from what you're discussing.

It honestly seems to me that you're taking "Davlin is Lawful Stupid" as a given and working backwards, rather than considering all facets of the situation.



To go back on that, though... It is unlikely that all dwarves were united under a single government. At most, it could be plausible that he was king of the only/first/all dwarven nation(s) at one point.

But that council doesn't rule anymore. So what happened? It wouldn't be very dwarf-like to do a revolution. And had they done one, then they probably wouldn't even have this council anymore anyways. They are very lawful, no? So if they ever devolved powers from the council, then one should presume that the council rubber-stamped this devolution? And if they did, then... Dvalin should be endorsing the decisions of whoever the council delegated powers to? Which are... wait, who again? Do we even know anything about current dwarven governance?

Unless... as king, he decided he would listen to a council he created, without giving said council any actual de jure existence or authority, and kept it merely as a personal oath that somehow wouldn't transfer to his successor...? Which would not really seem to match with what we know of dwarven society. And after all, if the council still exists today, then it means it had rules on how to keep existing and functioning without him.

I don't see what basis you possibly have for saying that was unlikely. You honestly seem to be rambling here, but I'm just going to say that, yes, it does seem that the Council of Clans is a mostly ceremonial position now, and might even exist solely for this reason. However, as we found out recently, the ancient clans still carry vast wealth and influence in society, if that means anything to you.



Are...

Are we going to have a tiebreaker to the tiebreaker to the tiebreaker? If the dwarven council used something akin to english parliamentarism, then the house of commons gets to vote laws, but they still need royal ascent, which theoretically Dvalin could oppose, leaving the big vote tied...

Though that just brings us back to my prior point about the only meaningful resolution that could be had would be the Order saving the elders' ability to vote Yes.

I honestly don't see the point in you asking this, when this story arc is clearly almost over. Also, why are assuming the Council of Clans works like some real life parliament, instead of the unicameral body it has been talked about and depicted as being? This almost seems like complaining just for the sake of it.

[Dion]

4.) Dvalin may now, but can do nothing (I believe that's sufficiently different from 2).

I’ll agree that it’s different enough to break it out.

For what it’s worth, I think the “correct” answer is (2) and not (4).

The way I read the story, I get the sense that Rich intends to depict the gods as having a free choice to follow or break the rules.

I get the sense that Dvalin will follow the rules because that’s who Dvalin is, amd not because there is a cosmic requirement to follow the rules.

But... I sure do like stories with gods who can’t act against their own nature.

[Peelee]

I’ll agree that it’s different enough to break it out.

For what it’s worth, I think the “correct” answer is (2) and not (4).

The way I read the story, I get the sense that Rich intends to depict the gods as having a free choice to follow or break the rules.

I get the sense that Dvalin will follow the rules because that’s who Dvalin is, amd not because there is a cosmic requirement to follow the rules.

But... I sure do like stories with gods who can’t act against their own nature.

I agree the gods have free choice to follow or break the rules, but I also see it as there being grave consequences to breaking said rules. I don't think Dvalin will be physically incapable of going against the council any more than Hel is physically incapable of going against the Domain Agreement, but I still see that as being effectively bound and the choice being out of their hands.

Though I apparently can't even spell "know," so take that as you will.:smalltongue:

[Goblin_Priest]

GP, I think you mean another word than "imbibed", which is to drink. Granted, dwaves do that all day long, but I doubt anything is imbibed to their culture. Would "imbued" work better? "Installed" perhaps?

m·bibe
/imˈbīb/
verbformal•humorous
past tense: imbibed; past participle: imbibed
(...)
absorb or assimilate (ideas or knowledge).
"she had imbibed the gospel of modernism from Kandinsky"
synonyms: assimilate, absorb, soak up, take in, digest, ingest, drink in, learn, acquire, grasp, gain, pick up, familiarize oneself with
"he has spent a lifetime imbibing his local club's history"
Botany
(especially of seeds) absorb (water) into ultramicroscopic spaces or pores.

Dwarven culture has absorbed lawful stupidness. Imbibed seems, therefore, appropriate. English being a second language, I can't really put my head around the distinction that should or should not be made with "imbue" in such a case.


Yeah it would if the voters suspect it happens, hence why it would be forbidden. It especially would when Dvalin was a mortal so the interdiction might read "king Dvalin shall not, by any mean, attempt to learn the nature of each individual voter's vote", Dvalin would still consider himself bound by that.

Odin is a loon, Thor is a drunk and Loki is Loki. All three of them voted "Nay" and two of them are directly responsible for his people plight. Even if his was willing to listen to them, why would he?

Thor's been doing his best since this world's creation to save the dwarves from Hel. At the very least, there'd be no reason for Thor not to tell Dvalin, regardless of whether he would act on it or not.


What on Earth?

You think that if a government put cameras in voting booths to record what every person was voting for, that wouldn't influence their votes?

Observing votes by someone with a stake in the result and the authority and power to do something about it most definitely influences vote behaviour.

Grey Wolf

I can't think of any government where the representatives don't cast public votes. Modern, at least. Maybe the past had some, but that overall seems more reserved to universal (or partial) suffrage, rather than delegation-based systems.

And besides... so what? Dvalin is just a deific rubber stamper. He follows their will. What does it change for him, or for them, that he knows who voted for what? He doesn't have a stake in the result, nor the authority or power to do something about it, because, as above, he's the personified concept of rubber-stamping.


I’ll agree that it’s different enough to break it out.

For what it’s worth, I think the “correct” answer is (2) and not (4).

The way I read the story, I get the sense that Rich intends to depict the gods as having a free choice to follow or break the rules.

I get the sense that Dvalin will follow the rules because that’s who Dvalin is, amd not because there is a cosmic requirement to follow the rules.

But... I sure do like stories with gods who can’t act against their own nature.

There are different rules at play. There are the cosmic rules of godhood, and there are the cosmic rules of the gods, which are two dramatically different things. The second are things like how the Godsmoot works, the domain agreements, and so on. They are rules that the gods, as independent sentient beings, collectively made up, and then agreed to. And just as they made them up, they can ignore them, or break them, if they are willing to suffer the consequences. The cosmic rules of godhood, on the other hand, are Sovereign, immutable, inviolable. That's stuff like quiddities, belief, the fate of souls, etc.

Why exactly Dvalin ascended is a matter of speculation, but it would be plausible that, by the cosmic rules of godhood, "he can't defy the council" and "he won't defy the council" are the same thing, because he overpowered dedication to those rules are part of the reason he ascended.

[SilverCacaobean]

I can't think of any government where the representatives don't cast public votes. Modern, at least.

The representatives are supposed to be representing the public, so the public that has voted for them watching them is supposed to influence their vote towards the will of the public.

On the other hand the council is not supposed to be representing Dvalin. If Dvalin's will is meant to have as little influence on the vote as possible, he shouldn't be able to watch the procedure for the reasons so many other people have articulated better than I could.

[Aveline]

m·bibe
/imˈbīb/
verbformal•humorous
past tense: imbibed; past participle: imbibed
(...)
absorb or assimilate (ideas or knowledge).
"she had imbibed the gospel of modernism from Kandinsky"
synonyms: assimilate, absorb, soak up, take in, digest, ingest, drink in, learn, acquire, grasp, gain, pick up, familiarize oneself with
"he has spent a lifetime imbibing his local club's history"
Botany
(especially of seeds) absorb (water) into ultramicroscopic spaces or pores.

Dwarven culture has absorbed lawful stupidness. Imbibed seems, therefore, appropriate. English being a second language, I can't really put my head around the distinction that should or should not be made with "imbue" in such a case.

I just saw this section whilst scrolling through the thread again.

"Imbue" usually implies a sort of creator/creation or master/apprentice relationship, where one thing is changing another; with "imbibe", the thing making the change is the thing being changed. I imbibe myself; another imbues me.

"Imbibe" also has strong connotations with alcohol and I personally would consider any other use archaic.