OOTS #1158 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[mstang107]

That's ... a big worm ...

[Anyr]

I expected a slightly more cunning plan than 'send in a giant monster'. Maybe Hel is tired of scheming in the shadows.

[Fyraltari]

Minions just aren’t what they used to be.

What is that thing, how do they kill it and how does it see?

[Itrogash]

With all those preparations, I really want a gag where heroes completely bypass them in some mundane way. I'm giddy with anticipation.

[Drakeburn]

What is that thing supposed to be? :smallconfused:

[knag]

Purple worm?

Maybe it sees with sound. It'd be nice to have a vorpal blade right now... but I think a hammer of thunderbolts with a belt of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power would do nicely instead.

[Frozen_Northman]

Elan would totally agree with Hel in that last panel.

Of course, knowing Elan, he'll encourage Durkon and/or Hilgya to use their Turning power on the beastie, in the hopes of crying out:
:elan: "Give up, evil ones! For now, the worm has turned!"

[sleepy hedgehog]

With all those preparations, I really want a gag where heroes completely bypass them in some mundane way. I'm giddy with anticipation.

Naah, they already beat a worm with spice.
So this time they need to do something splashier.

[Giggling Ghast]

Purple worm?

Maybe it sees with sound. It'd be nice to have a vorpal blade right now... but I think a hammer of thunderbolts with a belt of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power would do nicely instead.No, we saw a purple worm before. They’re much bigger.

This seems to be some kind of negative energy variant of the giant worm.

[Caerulea]

Cool. Giant worm. Also, Thyrm's reaction.

—Caerulea

[Fyraltari]

Thrym deserves a better girlfriend than Hel, really.

[Quebbster]

It was summoned outside the orange barrier, so the entire Order should be able to help get rid of it. There's probably a reason why it wasn't summoned inside though.

[Yxylu]

What is that thing supposed to be? :smallconfused:

I’m guessing a nightcrawler. It looks just like the one in A Monster for Every Season (Autumn).

[Doug Lampert]

I expected a slightly more cunning plan than 'send in a giant monster'. Maybe Hel is tired of scheming in the shadows.

The cunning plan is inside the inner barrier. Giant monster is the backup to the backup plan to the backup plan, it's just there to keep the heroes busy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm betting Durkon can find a really big bottle of booze this time.

[hroþila]

Thrym deserves a better girlfriend than Hel, really.
Dunno, I'm not sure whether he's a nice guy or a Nice Guy.

[understatement]

I can't wait to see Hel's face when Durkon off-handedly one-shots the worm. Or anyone else in the Order + co finishing it off, really.

[Fyraltari]

It was summoned outside the orange barrier, so the entire Order should be able to help get rid of it. There's probably a reason why it wasn't summoned inside though.

The roof, maybe?

[denthor]

I still think Hilga is the key here.

Does worshipping rocks make the creed of stone dumb as a box of rocks?

[some guy]

I’m guessing a nightcrawler. It looks just like the one in A Monster for Every Season (Autumn).

Indeed, and a nightcrawler is undead, which would be fitting for a minion of Hel.

Edit: from the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler): "Nightshades are powerful undead composed of equal parts darkness and absolute evil." "A nightcrawler is a massive behemoth similar to a purple worm, though utterly black in color."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

how does it see?

Blindsense?

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

It would have been hilarious if the real Gontor had had time to use that against Durkon.

Dunno, I'm not sure whether he's a nice guy or a Nice Guy.

He certainly is an ice guy.
For reals, though, I read him as genuine because it’s funnier.

[Verappo]

The Exarch has brand integrity to maintain as the second choice in everything

[monomer]

Indeed, and a nightcrawler is undead, which would be fitting for a minion of Hel.

Hmm, I was thinking a Neothelid due to the lack of eyes, but yeah, thematically a Nightcrawler makes more sense.

[Slingsby]

Loving Hel's fury at her new high priest failing to follow through on the pun :smallbiggrin:

Also, I suspect that the vampires only having a majority of one may prove their undoing at a crucial moment...

[Resileaf]

Ah, good, the main combatants will be able to shine in the final battle too. I imagine we'll have Durkon going on ahead while Roy and the others handle the monster outside.

[Peelee]

It would have been hilarious if the real Gontor had had time to use that against Durkon.


He certainly is an ice guy.
For reals, though, I read him as genuine because it’s funnier.

Plus, he has just the bluest eyes!

[knag]

In case anyone is wondering, the inscription above the entry reads:

ONLY DWARVES MAY PASS

[Rrmcklin]

Thrym deserves a better girlfriend than Hel, really.

Not his girlfriend, she never hid her intentions or feelings on the subject.


Dunno, I'm not sure whether he's a nice guy or a Nice Guy.

As far as I can tell, definitely the latter.

[Fyraltari]

Plus, he has just the bluest eyes!

And he does sometimes let his being annoyed shine through (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html)

[Fyraltari]

Not his girlfriend, she never hid her intentions or feelings on the subject.
Yes? I never said she was.

[Peelee]

In case anyone is wondering, the inscription above the entry reads:

ONLY DWARVES MAY PASS

Mucho appreciado!

[Rrmcklin]

Yes? I never said she was.

I took deserves a better girlfriend as implying she was his girlfriend. A mistake on my part then.

[ratfox]

In case anyone is wondering, the inscription above the entry reads:

ONLY DWARVES MAY PASS

Tsk. What happened to "Speak, friend, and enter"?

[hroþila]

He certainly is an ice guy.
For reals, though, I read him as genuine because it’s funnier.
You couldn't hear my groan after that Batman & Robin-level pun but believe me, it was pretty loud.

(But yeah, agreed, it is funnier!)

[Peelee]

I womder what the other scrolls are.

[Fyraltari]

You couldn't hear my groan after that Batman & Robin-level pun but believe me, it was pretty loud.

Come on, this is basic villain stuff.

[Peelee]

Come on, this is basic villain stuff.

Exactly! That s DeneuveBatman Forever caliber.

[Caerulea]

I womder what the other scrolls are.
Whatever is dramatically appropriate. Come on, don't you pay attention to Elan at least sometimes?

—Caerulea

[GregTD]

That worm will be food for Belkar

[Dungeon-noob]

We see the bad guys prepping, so all these plans will of course be dramatically foiled and probably fail to do their job. Methinks Roy might be playing the support for Durkon this time around.

[GregTD]

Elan would totally agree with Hel in that last panel.

Of course, knowing Elan, he'll encourage Durkon and/or Hilgya to use their Turning power on the beastie, in the hopes of crying out:
:elan: "Give up, evil ones! For now, the worm has turned!"

To quote for "Good Morning, Vietnam", "You're going straight to Hell for that one!"



I took deserves a better girlfriend as implying she was his girlfriend. A mistake on my part then.

It's also "Stop trying to date her, you can do much better!"

[KorvinStarmast]

That's ... a big worm ... That joke's been done (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), but you're right. I don't have enough 3.5e Monster foo to know what that is, but I guess it was a kind of undead monster thing.

Note to self: one of the council members had a scroll of Gate on their person. Council members with class levels.

@knag: thank you.

[Resileaf]

That joke's been done (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), but you're right. I don't have enough 3.5e Monster foo to know what that is, but I guess it was a kind of undead monster thing.

Note to self: one of the council members had a scroll of Gate on their person. Council members with class levels.

Not council member, Gontor's body.

[happycrow]

Isn't Shai Hulud sort of a dangerous choice of ally to have in there? I mean, those things tunnel.....

[Sniccups]

Hmm, I was thinking a Neothelid due to the lack of eyes, but yeah, thematically a Nightcrawler makes more sense.

Yeah, there’s no way that’s a neothelid. It’d have tentacles in its face somewhere.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not council member, Gontor's body. OK, I can see how "this" means the body he is in. I'll go with that.

Also, in the last panel the expression of joy on the face of the assistant vampire is a novel twist on the standard hench-persons being glum or playing it straight while the villain gloats.

Hel's reaction got me chuckling. (It's so hard to find good help these days ...)

[Peelee]

Whatever is dramatically appropriate. Come on, don't you pay attention to Elan at least sometimes?

—Caerulea

I did, so it could also be comically inappropriate!

[Kish]

As far as I can tell, definitely the latter.
I don't see any ambiguity either, which means he doesn't deserve anything.

[2D8HP]

Minions just aren’t what they used to be.


Hel, I thought "squirmy death" sounded way more diabolical and fearsome than a "worm food" riff.

Appreciate your lackeys!

[NihhusHuotAliro]

You know, if I was trying to prevent heroic interference, I'd just destroy the bridges and collapse the hallways. Or at least try to create some blocking-type impediments, the sort of things which are not airtight (and thus are not an impediment to vampires who can do that mist-thing) but which are frustrating, time-consuming, and incredibly tedious for the enemy to get through.

I mean, lady, did you even learn anything from L'olonnais's attacks on Maricaibo and Gibraltar? It doesn't take that long to render an important pathway near-useless for its intended purpose of letting-swift-movement-happen. And then, with the time bought, you can do even more to make the situation be in your favor.

Big ol' monsters? Come on, adventurers kill big ol' monsters for a living, it's what they do. It sets up a cool action sequence and everything. Tsk Tsk, ms. Lokisdottir. For crying out loud, she has a giant chair in her realm, and who even knows what other furniture. But I guess giant monsters will have to do.

[ti'esar]

OK, I can see how "this" means the body he is in. I'll go with that.

I thought it was pretty obvious not just from the context but also the contempt the vampires seem to have for their host bodies.

How high-level was Gontor, though? I wouldn't previously have thought "high enough to thoughtlessly use a gate scroll".

[Peelee]

I thought it was pretty obvious not just from the context but also the contempt the vampires seem to have for their host bodies.

How high-level was Gontor, though? I wouldn't previously have thought "high enough to thoughtlessly use a gate scroll".
Oh, I can help! From the CLG:

Yes!

Dwarf, Cleric 1+.

[ZerglingOne]

Ouch, a nightcrawler. Those things are nasty. One of those CR 18 but not actually CR 18 monsters.

[Caerulea]

I did, so it could also be comically inappropriate!
True. They are something either dramatic, or comedic, or possibly neither!

—Caerulea

[Psyren]

Thrym deserves a better girlfriend than Hel, really.

Came here to say this :smallbiggrin:



How high-level was Gontor, though? I wouldn't previously have thought "high enough to thoughtlessly use a gate scroll".

Gontor didn't thoughtlessly use anything :smalltongue: his own Greg did.

Which highlights another limitation of Vampires. Blowing Gate on a big worm is probably the least useful* application I can think of for it, which tracks because Gontor isn't very smart. Greg could have likely put that scroll to much better use - but he likely didn't even think to ask any of his thralls to fork over any valuable magic items that might be in their possession.

*second least if we count Dorukan

[Rogar Demonblud]

Let me also point out that as a nightcrawler is undead, it's vulnerable to Roy's sword and the special properties thereof.

[FlawedParadigm]

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Nightshade,_Nightcrawler

Are these the relevant statistics, or was there a shift from 3.0 to 3.5 on them?

On paper, this would probably wreck the entire Order, but teamwork etc.

[Jasdoif]

Are these the relevant statistics, or was there a shift from 3.0 to 3.5 on them?Numbers are certainly different (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler).

[Cirin]

Between Purple Worm, Nightcrawler, and Neothelid it's amusing how many "Giant, extremely dangerous, monstrous worm" monsters there are.

Kinda like how there's so many different ways of creating fog through the magic system :-)

. . .as we sit here wondering which one it was. My first thought was Neothelid, but yeah, Nightcrawler seems more likely.

[jwhouk]

"As the Worm Turns Undead."

[Sm3gl]

Who's going to get swallowed?
I vote Belkar.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, this also seems like a fun challenge for the Order. Thrym’s reaction was perfect. I agree with Hel: I hate to see a good pun opportunity go to waste. At least like “let’s see the Order wriggle their way out of this one”.

[Reboot]

Hel, you did a premature villain gloat. You have no villanous high ground to cast stones from.

[Rogar Demonblud]

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Nightshade,_Nightcrawler

Are these the relevant statistics, or was there a shift from 3.0 to 3.5 on them?

On paper, this would probably wreck the entire Order, but teamwork etc.


Numbers are certainly different (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler).

Those are some serious differences. The first's DR is easily bypassed, since everyone in the Order has a +5 weapon except V, who also gets screwed by the no spells below 7th work clause. The second requires silver and magic, but no longer has the absurd levels of elemental resistances and the SR stands at 31. HP-wise the first is also an easier proposition.

This may be V's fight to shine, as everyone else is pretty much nerfed.

[Potatamoto]

My satisfaction would be physically palpable if this ended with Dvalin saying "Yeah, no, obviously votes cast by vampiric thralls don't count."

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why do people keep saying they want Rich to go "LOL, of course nothing the heroes do mattered!"?

[Peelee]

My satisfaction would be physically palpable if this ended with Dvalin saying "Yeah, no, obviously votes cast by vampiric thralls don't count."

I, too, love reading The Order of Random Other People Solving Problems.

[SlashDash]

So the orange barrier dispells?

I guess Bloodfest is about to wreck havoc.

[Peelee]

So the orange barrier dispells?

I guess Bloodfest is about to wreck havoc.

Shame Bloodfeast isn't a dwarf and can't pass through it.

[zimmerwald1915]

As far as I can tell, definitely the latter.
Put me down for Nice Guy too. He positively thrums with disingenuousness.

[Leftour]

Shame Bloodfeast isn't a dwarf and can't pass through it.

You could say that he(?) is a dwarf-sized T-Rex att his current state. Does that count? X-D

[oppyu]

Put me down for Nice Guy too. He positively thrums with disingenuousness.
Yup, Nice Guy. Lower case nice guys don't need to broadcast what they're doing and how it reflects what a nice guy they are, especially while pursuing a romantic interest who has made her contempt and disinterest abundantly clear.

[Ruck]

Thrym deserves a better girlfriend than Hel, really.


Dunno, I'm not sure whether he's a nice guy or a Nice Guy.


He certainly is an ice guy.
For reals, though, I read him as genuine because it’s funnier.


As far as I can tell, definitely the latter.

I'm in agreement with Rrmcklin; I think everything we've seen of Thrym is of the "act nice in hopes of worming your way into sex" type of Nice Guy. Pun absolutely intended.

[Peelee]

Put me down for Nice Guy too. He positively thrums with disingenuousness.

Thrums? Thrym?

[zimmerwald1915]

Thrums? Thrym?
That was the pun I was going for, yes.

The sad part is, that's about the best I can do :smallfrown:

[Anarion]

I desperately want Hel to facepalm and say "it is so hard to find good help these days" very soon. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

That was the pun I was going for, yes.

The sad part is, that's about the best I can do :smallfrown:

Look on the bright side, that means you crank out a lot less terrible ones than others! Nothing wrong with marching to the beat of your own thrummer.

[Ramza00]

If this is a Nightcrawler than a disentigrate at 15 CL will do 30d6 aka 105 damage and take out half of the monster's hit points. The fort save is horrible, but the monster does have spell resistance of 31 so that may be a problem with bad rolls. V loves preparing disintegrate.

The 3 a day quicken cone of cone (25 caster level but caps at 15d6) will be a problem though for the party. 60 foot cone is a lot of squares and the monster can do this plus other effects.

[Jasdoif]

That was the pun I was going for, yes.

The sad part is, that's about the best I can do :smallfrown:Don't talk about Thrym, and you won't distract the worm?

[zimmerwald1915]

Those are some serious differences. The first's DR is easily bypassed, since everyone in the Order has a +5 weapon except V, who also gets screwed by the no spells below 7th work clause. The second requires silver and magic, but no longer has the absurd levels of elemental resistances and the SR stands at 31. HP-wise the first is also an easier proposition.

This may be V's fight to shine, as everyone else is pretty much nerfed.
SR 31 is still hard for Vaarsuvius to beat. Her caster level stands at 17, which means she'd need to roll a 14 or better to beat SR 31.

However, the nightcrawler is almost purely a melee monster, and as a Gargantuan creature, fits in a forcecage. Which is an SR: no spell.

It would still be able to summon shadows to inconvenience the Order, but Durkon and Hilgya (assuming she tags along) could turn them easily enough.

EDIT: ah, wait, it has SLAs, doesn't it? Mass hold monster could be a problem.

[Peelee]

Don't talk about Thrym, and you won't distract the worm?

If only there were a dragon, then you could talk about a wyrm.

[Jasdoif]

If only there were a dragon, then you could talk about a wyrm.You don't seem distracted.

[ziratha]

Random theory: Belkar will save the day while falling afoul of the "turn to stone" countermeasure. Further, he will do so in such a way that will prevent the council from reaching a consensus. This will result in the dwarven council never completing, and thus prevent belkar from ever being unstoned. Finally, the godsmoots rules (being poorly written and fairly archaic) will have never considered the possibility of the deciding vote never being cast, and be permanently stalled.

[Riftwolf]

In case anyone is wondering, the inscription above the entry reads:

ONLY DWARVES MAY PASS

I did wonder; thanks!
I'm guessing the Exarch had Gate spells in case of a Yes vote.

[Peelee]

You don't seem distracted.

Nah, just tired. I'm gonna say low potassium.

[gatemansgc]

Random theory: Belkar will save the day while falling afoul of the "turn to stone" countermeasure. Further, he will do so in such a way that will prevent the council from reaching a consensus. This will result in the dwarven council never completing, and thus prevent belkar from ever being unstoned. Finally, the godsmoots rules (being poorly written and fairly archaic) will have never considered the possibility of the deciding vote never being cast, and be permanently stalled.

i'd still put my money on "trying to stab the snarl" being belkar's undoing.

[Jasdoif]

SR 31 is still hard for Vaarsuvius to beat. Her caster level stands at 17, which means she'd need to roll a 14 or better to beat SR 31.

However, the nightcrawler is almost purely a melee monster, and as a Gargantuan creature, fits in a forcecage. Which is an SR: no spell.

It would still be able to summon shadows to inconvenience the Order, but Durkon and Hilgya (assuming she tags along) could turn them easily enough.

EDIT: ah, wait, it has SLAs, doesn't it? Mass hold monster could be a problem.It's too big for a solid forcecage, and has unholy blight at will; even while using its quickened cones of cold for the day, being stuck in a barred forcecage might limit it to trying...Okay, noting this down for "ways to show whether or not Hilgya/Belkar are still Evil".

[faustin]

I know Hel is mean to be a big threat in the context of the comic, but it´s impossible for me to take her seriously with the whole "angry, moody teen in her gothic rebellious phase playing villain to show off daddy".
Hel is basically an overpowered Nale 2.0.

[deuterio12]

GATE?

A scroll of GATE?

Now this is just getting silly(er). Anyone who could afford to just walk around with one of those things had no business dying so easily



Gontor didn't thoughtlessly use anything :smalltongue: his own Greg did.

Which highlights another limitation of Vampires. Blowing Gate on a big worm is probably the least useful* application I can think of for it, which tracks because Gontor isn't very smart. Greg could have likely put that scroll to much better use - but he likely didn't even think to ask any of his thralls to fork over any valuable magic items that might be in their possession.


To be fair, Gontor's just a few hours old and his host was an idiot as demonstrated by somehow having got their hands in a GATE scroll and yet being defeated by some vampire that didn't have access to 9th level spells. It's a miracle he remembers to breathe-ah yes vampires don't need to worry about that.

Just like the remaining 99% of dwarves suffer from extreme retardation like "we can afford to set up no-save at-will petrification effects on triggers but can't afford more than a few low level guards in the same area that couldn't make a Will save even if they rolled a natural 20."

No wonder Hylgia ran away, it must've been pure despair to be surrounded by such idiots like her husband. And she duped the rest of her family pretty easily too. Then there's the whole "trees are our nemesis" idiocy also shared by most dwarves that even Durkon suffers from. Seems like OoTs dwarves have a -9 racial penalty to Int minimum.

[Caerulea]

Just like the remaining 99% of dwarves suffer from extreme retardation like "we can afford to set up no-save at-will petrification effects on triggers but can't afford more than a few low level guards in the same area that couldn't make a Will save even if they rolled a natural 20."

Perhaps they though the no-save petrification would be sufficient. Also, they have a dispel barrier. The only weakness to the defense seems to be high level dwarven spell-casters or dwarven vampires.

—Caerulea

[Peelee]

GATE?

A scroll of GATE?

Now this is just getting silly(er). Anyone who could afford to just walk around with one of those things had no business dying so easily

He was out of high level spells, was surprised by Greg, and looks like he was energy drained as well. Saying Gontor died easily is like saying Durkon died easily.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

GATE?

A scroll of GATE?

Now this is just getting silly(er). Anyone who could afford to just walk around with one of those things had no business dying so easily

Nope. And if you want to claim anything even remotely resembling this, you need to present proof, especially given your past history of making mountains out of molehills.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

GATE?

A scroll of GATE?

Now this is just getting silly(er). Anyone who could afford to just walk around with one of those things had no business dying so easilyHe was out of high level spells, was surprised by Greg, and looks like he was energy drained as well. Saying Gontor died easily is like saying Durkon died easily.Now now...Gontor gave up on the family business (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html); so he had no business to die so easily. (I wonder if it was a mortuary service, in which case its business was dying, easily or otherwise.) Of course, he'd be blacklisted for giving it up. The irony! Cold irony? ....Ore something? This is really rocky territory....

[Ganbatte]

Nope. And if you want to claim anything even remotely resembling this, you need to present proof, especially given your past history of making mountains out of molehills.

Grey Wolf

Well that didn't take long....

[Caerulea]

Well that didn't take long....
Can we not move the hostility of the last thread into this one, please?

—Caerulea

[Ganbatte]

Can we not move the hostility of the last thread into this one, please?


Relax, it won't. :smallbiggrin:

Besides it IS in this thread I'm seeing stuff already starting over. I just weep in compassionate empathy for deuterio12. :smalltongue:

[Vessyra]

Ah, Hel. Now you know how Loki felt about your premature villain gloat.

If you want to get mad at Exarch for his failures at professional villainy, you should really fix your own mistakes first.


Also: Wow! Fourth page! I've never been this close to the start of the threat before.

[schmunzel]

The roof, maybe?

ahem Allosaurus ... anyone ??


sch

[Vessyra]

how does it see?


Blindsense?

Grey Wolf

But how is it to sense the Order's blindness if none of them are blind?:smalltongue:

[schmunzel]

That joke's been done (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), but you're right. I don't have enough 3.5e Monster foo to know what that is, but I guess it was a kind of undead monster thing.

Note to self: one of the council members had a scroll of Gate on their person. Council members with class levels.

@knag: thank you.

Naaah the Exarch had.

What by the way is te difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy???


sch

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Naaah the Exarch had.

What by the way is te difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy???


sch

A nice guy (no capitals) is a genuinely considerate fellow. Helpful, polite, and kind. A guy who is nice.

A Nice Guy is a fellow who is selfish and only pretends to care about other people.

[Kish]

Naaah the Exarch had.

What by the way is te difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy???


sch
A nice guy is a guy and is nice.

A Nice Guy is passive-aggressive, whiny, and complains that the women he wants choose to get involved with rows of asterisks (who actually express interest in them) instead of with nice guys like him.

[schmunzel]

Shame Bloodfeast isn't a dwarf and can't pass through it.

true but hes in an extradimensional bag (which magically negates the race issues but not the dispelling)

BUT perhaps as animal hes not subject to discrimination??


sch

[Kish]

true but hes in an extradimensional bag (which magically negates the race issues but not the dispelling)
It would be really bad if Bloodfeast turned back inside the Bag of Holding. To the tune of "Bloodfeast and everything in the Bag of Holding is lost in another dimension."

[NihhusHuotAliro]

It would be really bad if Bloodfeast turned back inside the Bag of Holding. To the tune of "Bloodfeast and everything in the Bag of Holding is lost in another dimension."

If that happened, would Bloodfeast and everything in the Bag of Holding be safe from the Snarl? I mean, can the Snarl reach that other dimension?

[Goblin_Priest]

I thought it was pretty obvious not just from the context but also the contempt the vampires seem to have for their host bodies.

How high-level was Gontor, though? I wouldn't previously have thought "high enough to thoughtlessly use a gate scroll".

I'm quite surprised as well. I did not at all expect the Exarch to be able to cast lvl 9 spells.

[schmunzel]

It would be really bad if Bloodfeast turned back inside the Bag of Holding. To the tune of "Bloodfeast and everything in the Bag of Holding is lost in another dimension."

damn it

and thks you two for explaining btw


sch

[SilverCacaobean]

Damn, Thrym, take a hint man. That's just embarrassing.

...Is it me, or are these two among the goofiest villains of the whole comic?

[zimmerwald1915]

It's too big for a solid forcecage, and has unholy blight at will; even while using its quickened cones of cold for the day, being stuck in a barred forcecage might limit it to trying...Okay, noting this down for "ways to show whether or not Hilgya/Belkar are still Evil".
Unholy blight doesn't do very much damage, and while sickened is nasty, the save DC is low. I'd expect Roy and Durkon to be able to make it at this point in the story. The cones of cold are more worrisome for damage, but I only expect it to get off one before someone busts out the protection from cold. That's if the Order/Hilgya doesn't think to scry again.

I concur about unholy blight being a useful device to indicate Belkar's, Hilgya's, and Vaarsuvius's current alignments.

[zimmerwald1915]

And now for something completely different: did anyone notice that the nightcrawler is a single-quiddity creation? As are, by implication, the various vampire spirits?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

damn it

and thks you two for explaining btw


sch
No problem. As far as I can tell, it's a relatively recent idiom (I don't think I ever saw it before 2015), and there's a lot of idioms I'm unfamiliar with.


Damn, Thrym, take a hint man. That's just embarrassing.

...Is it me, or are these two among the goofiest villains of the whole comic?

I'd say the Holey Brotherhood and Baron Pineapple from strip 276 are the silliest. I still sometimes giggle when I remember them.

[zimmerwald1915]

No problem. As far as I can tell, it's a relatively recent idiom (I don't think I ever saw it before 2015), and there's a lot of idioms I'm unfamiliar with.



I'd say the Holey Brotherhood and Baron Pineapple from strip 276 are the silliest. I still sometimes giggle when I remember them.
:elan: Silly and goofy are two completely different things!

[NihhusHuotAliro]

:elan: Silly and goofy are two completely different things!

As per Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, Seventh Edition (Good old Seventhy, my old friend):

Goofy: adj: CRAZY, SILLY

Syn: FOOLISH, SILLY, FATUOUS, ASININE, SIMPLE: SIMPLE implies a degree of intelligence inadequate to cope with anything complex or involving mental effort; FOOLISH implies the character of being or seeming unable to use judgment, discretion, or good sense; SILLY suggests failure to act as a rational being esp. by ridiculous behavior; FATUOUS implies foolishness, inanity, and disregard of reality; ASININE suggests utter and contemptible failure to use normal rationality or perception.

[Jasdoif]

Unholy blight doesn't do very much damage, and while sickened is nasty, the save DC is low. I'd expect Roy and Durkon to be able to make it at this point in the story. The cones of cold are more worrisome for damage, but I only expect it to get off one before someone busts out the protection from cold. That's if the Order/Hilgya doesn't think to scry again.Hmm. I didn't think the at-will greater dispel magic was going to matter much, since the orange barrier past it would dispel stuff anyway...but I think you're right, the Order (and possibly friends/Hilgya) are bound to use defensive spells; and dispelling at the +20 cap turns that into trading slots for actions. It's almost certainly going to dispel any cold protection it sees cast; it only gets three cones of cold per day and can quicken all of them.

[Ganbatte]

And now for something completely different: did anyone notice that the nightcrawler is a single-quiddity creation? As are, by implication, the various vampire spirits?

Because of the color?

[Anitar]

So... Are we referring to Durkon's vampire as the "FPoH" ("First Priest of Hel") instead of the "HPoH" now?

[Verappo]

So... Are we referring to Durkon's vampire as the "FPoH" ("First Priest of Hel") instead of the "HPoH" now?

I thought we settled on "TVFKaFPoH" (The Vampire Formerly Known as First Priest of Hel). It's cleaner

[Peelee]

And now for something completely different: did anyone notice that the nightcrawler is a single-quiddity creation? As are, by implication, the various vampire spirits?

I had not, but I wish doubt that will have any effects.

[The MunchKING]

He was out of high level spells, was surprised by Greg, and looks like he was energy drained as well. Saying Gontor died easily is like saying Durkon died easily.

I would have thought a High Level cleric would have a Word of Recall ready.

…

Wait, Gontor was from the Stone people wasn't he? So he said he used ALL his high level spells on building the Godsmoot place. Probably SHOULD have saved himself a Word of Recall, and brought in another Stone Cleric than he already had to help with the Building. :smalltongue:

[Potatamoto]

I, too, love reading The Order of Random Other People Solving Problems.

Okay, I totally get that, really. Normally I'd completely agree with that sentiment. But in this particular situation, we had the big, awesome encounter at the Godsmoot, plus the even more climactic battle that ended Vampire Durkon and brought the real one back to us. They have done quite a bit of amazing Hel-thwarting already. And, to me anyway, pulling the rug out from under Hel by having Dvalin declare the thralls' votes invalid would be hilarious. Taking all that meticulous care that Hel and Durkula put into following the rules and regulations of the Godsmoot and the Council to the letter and just flipping it completely around on them. I'd love it.

Besides, I'm not sold on why that wouldn't be the case. Dvalin "swore an oath to obey the will of the Council." If they're enthralled, by definition, they've lost their will, which should render their votes invalid. And Dvalin may only be a demigod but one imagines that he's watching this vote pretty closely...I can't imagine he doesn't know what's going on. But if a reason pops up as to why Dvalin wouldn't be aware of these shenanigans, I will cheerfully withdraw that objection.

[ti'esar]

Honestly, I'm not sure these guys and Hel's plan is meant, narratively, to be that much of an obstacle at this point. I could be wrong, but this mostly just feels like laying out the details of what Durkon's going to drop the hammer on. 'Greg' feels a lot more like the main villain of book 6 than Hel.

[Peelee]

I would have thought a High Level cleric would have a Word of Recall ready.

…

Wait, Gontor was from the Stone people wasn't he? So he said he used ALL his high level spells on building the Godsmoot place. Probably SHOULD have saved himself a Word of Recall, and brought in another Stone Cleric than he already had to help with the Building. :smalltongue:
Well, given that it's a word, I doubt it would have been terribly effective (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html).:smallwink:

[Kish]

Besides, I'm not sold on why that wouldn't be the case. Dvalin "swore an oath to obey the will of the Council." If they're enthralled, by definition, they've lost their will, which should render their votes invalid. And Dvalin may only be a demigod but one imagines that he's watching this vote pretty closely...I can't imagine he doesn't know what's going on. But if a reason pops up as to why Dvalin wouldn't be aware of these shenanigans, I will cheerfully withdraw that objection.
The reason why it won't be the case is the way it would disconnect the protagonists from the plot. Rich has mentioned (usually in the context of people complainin' that he should abbreviate the plot because the individual strips take too long to go up) that he doesn't look at his writing decisions in terms of "what would amuse my readers at strip #116X"--he looks at it in terms of "what will make the total narrative arc satisfying to someone reading the published physical book over the course of a few hours." And "The Order's intervention was ultimately unnecessary, Hel's plan was doomed" is not it.

[Ganbatte]

Okay, I totally get that, really. Normally I'd completely agree with that sentiment. But in this particular situation, we had the big, awesome encounter at the Godsmoot, plus the even more climactic battle that ended Vampire Durkon and brought the real one back to us. They have done quite a bit of amazing Hel-thwarting already. And, to me anyway, pulling the rug out from under Hel by having Dvalin declare the thralls' votes invalid would be hilarious. Taking all that meticulous care that Hel and Durkula put into following the rules and regulations of the Godsmoot and the Council to the letter and just flipping it completely around on them. I'd love it.

Besides, I'm not sold on why that wouldn't be the case. Dvalin "swore an oath to obey the will of the Council." If they're enthralled, by definition, they've lost their will, which should render their votes invalid. And Dvalin may only be a demigod but one imagines that he's watching this vote pretty closely...I can't imagine he doesn't know what's going on. But if a reason pops up as to why Dvalin wouldn't be aware of these shenanigans, I will cheerfully withdraw that objection.

Heh, you're not alone in this.
We've been having this exact discussion (with these exact talking points) for like 40 pages now.

[The MunchKING]

Well, given that it's a word, I doubt it would have been terribly effective (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html).:smallwink:

So would Silent Spell Word of Recall just be a Thought of Recall?

[Peelee]

So would Silent Spell Word of Recall just be a Thought of Recall?

This greatly amuses me.

[Particle_Man]

So if the three fiends take V away from this fight that means they want the world destroyed, right?

[Peelee]

So if the three fiends take V away from this fight that means they want the world destroyed, right?

No. That means whatever they want can be accomplished by taking V out.

[BasiliskSoldier]

I thought we'd be seeing Garm get sent through (maybe have a fight with Bloodfeast), but that might come later. Wouldn't surprise me if after her plan fails Hel will break the laws of the gods and intervene more directly.

[Rrmcklin]

No. That means whatever they want can be accomplished by taking V out.

Though I find the idea that this whole situation factors into their plans in the first place doubtful.

[KorvinStarmast]

A nice guy (no capitals) is a genuinely considerate fellow. Helpful, polite, and kind. A guy who is nice. A Nice Guy is a fellow who is selfish and only pretends to care about other people. Whilst Thrym, the Frost Giant, is aN Ice Guy. :smallwink:

Hat, coat, exit!

Also, Gontor's "by my count" in panel two. (Maybe there's a counting or numbering issue that is a small hole in his plan? No idea what it would be, but on review I wondered at that turn of phrase).

[Jasdoif]

Hat, coat, exit!You told your hat and coat to exit? Aren't you going to get cold?

[Anitar]

You told your hat and coat to exit? Aren't you going to get cold?

Nah, his Ring of Water Breathing also protects against the cold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1031.html).

[Ruck]

The reason why it won't be the case is the way it would disconnect the protagonists from the plot. Rich has mentioned (usually in the context of people complainin' that he should abbreviate the plot because it takes too long to go up) that he doesn't look at his writing decisions in terms of "what would amuse my readers at strip #116X"--he looks at it in terms of "what will make the total narrative arc satisfying to someone reading the published physical book over the course of a few hours." And "The Order's intervention was ultimately unnecessary, Hel's plan was doomed" is not it.

I could buy it being a funny twist that Dvalin simply negates the vote if, somehow, the plan would have succeeded with Durkula alive, but with him dead, it fails. I don't see how that would happen, though, and we've gotten some setup for Durkon putting together a plan to defeat the vampires at the vote, so that's what I expect.

[Gift Jeraff]

Because of the color?

Because Hel made it directly by herself.

[Father Miles]

Also, Gontor's "by my count" in panel two. (Maybe there's a counting or numbering issue that is a small hole in his plan? No idea what it would be, but on review I wondered at that turn of phrase).

Extra clan representatives arrive late? Some of the dominated dwarves are induced to break the law before voting, turning them to stone?

My theories on this are:
- Using the hammer on the ceiling may not be a violation. It is neither a spell nor supernatural ability. The hammer causing "destruction" has been signaled.
- It may be possible to cast spells through the blue barrier from the middle chamber.
- it may be possible to enter either chamber through the wall, bypassing the barrier. (See title of 1057).
- Minrah may somehow be important to the plot.
- If any of the vampires can be subverted, they can cause the others to vote no.

[F.Harr]

I like "Squirmy Death". True, that's because it's funny, but still, it's clever.

Now, he has a majority, but does he have a quorum? True, in most assemblies, his majority could just declare a quorum, regardless of the reality, but what if the dwarves have a rule that insists on a fair and honest count for a quorum call, not a majority to agree that one exists.

I just think it would be funny if they went though a long, difficult scene only to find the group he has so carefully and evilly gathered (in a funny, high-pitched voice no less) can't actually make a decision.

[Larre Gannd]

I like "Squirmy Death". True, that's because it's funny, but still, it's clever.

Now, he has a majority, but does he have a quorum? True, in most assemblies, his majority could just declare a quorum, regardless of the reality, but what if the dwarves have a rule that insists on a fair and honest count for a quorum call, not a majority to agree that one exists.

I just think it would be funny if they went though a long, difficult scene only to find the group he has so carefully and evilly gathered (in a funny, high-pitched voice no less) can't actually make a decision.
Funny, yes, but not really fitting for the likely comeback of Durkon. It’s his moment, let him shock you!

I’m sorry

[Emmit Svenson]

Keep in mind that if Gontor used gate to its utmost potential, trusting Hel to send a minion he didn't need to control, that could easily be an advanced nightcrawler, with around 34 HD and gargantuan in size...a far more significant challenge to our heroes.

[Magimasterkarp]

Couldn't Durkon just disguise himself as a Vampire to command the council members while the rest of the order somehow distract the vampires?

[Fyraltari]

re Thrym, I had read his broadcasting as being Elan/Veldrina-like in being unable not to vocalize most of his thoughts, but I see how you could see it as a marker of dishonesty. Heh, it doesn't matter much.



...Is it me, or are these two among the goofiest villains of the whole comic?
*Coughs* :thog: *Coughs*

And now for something completely different: did anyone notice that the nightcrawler is a single-quiddity creation? As are, by implication, the various vampire spirits?
I don't think so? The vampires are definitely walking around in 3-quiddity bodies for once. We know from Thor that a god can manipulate energy of another quiddity if given access to it, so if the Negative Energy Plane was ccreated by the gods it should be made of three quiddities, but it probably isn't since that would be somewhere the green quiddity would still be present, so I'd wager that quiddities do not factor into Negative Enegy at all. What is the worm made of even?

Anyway if it was a single quiddity being I would expect it to have a yellow aura or some equivalent. Then again, I can see Hel casting but I don't know if she's summonning or creating the worm. Anyway at this level of power, I doubt it makes a difference.

Honestly, I'm not sure these guys and Hel's plan is meant, narratively, to be that much of an obstacle at this point. I could be wrong, but this mostly just feels like laying out the details of what Durkon's going to drop the hammer on. 'Greg' feels a lot more like the main villain of book 6 than Hel.
I think this is Durkon's time to shine. He deserves to be the one who stops them, not Dvalin.

So would Silent Spell Word of Recall just be a Thought of Recall?
But is it Total?

Couldn't Durkon just disguise himself as a Vampire to command the council members while the rest of the order somehow distract the vampires?

Preposterous, he'd need access to very low level disguise magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html).

[Xenoph0n]

It would be a really big cop out for Hel's plan to be disrupted by a technicality or a throwaway joke. Durkon just got out of Greg's head, he just got a giant magic hammer, so now it's time for him to get his revenge on Hel by having a truly awesome moment.

[Supermagle]

Someone (Durkon?) will bring a round of dwarven beer based on Holy Water to the council meeting. Refusing a beer is a violation of dwarven law. :smallbiggrin:

[ijuinkun]

Loving Hel's fury at her new high priest failing to follow through on the pun :smallbiggrin:

Also, I suspect that the vampires only having a majority of one may prove their undoing at a crucial moment...

I like the idea of Sigdi counting as a valid representative of clan Thundershield and thus casting a vote.

[Psychronia]

I'm not sure whether Thrym is just a nice bf candidate or a suitor that's trying too hard, but I'm rooting for the guy.

It seems Hel is big on thematics and wordplay. Huh. I wonder which civilization's beliefs caused that?

[White_Mouse]

:roach:: That's no worm... It's a Tyranid!


Are we going to get another visit from our lovable, if unwelcome, copyright lawyer team?

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

What's below that bridge? I'm thinking a Foreceful Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcefulHand.htm) from V could just shove it down. Will it work, fall damage and all that?

But can it burrow through the stone and reemerge to strike?

I can see that it's a very hard enemy to take down. But, going a little meta here, I'm not seeing another long battle scene with many strips. So, I'm not going to say that the OOTS will one-shot it, but it will not be that hard.

The focus of the story is on defeating Ex-exarch. But let's see how this will unfold. :smallbiggrin:

[Rad]

Someone (Durkon?) will bring a round of dwarven beer based on Holy Water to the council meeting. Refusing a beer is a violation of dwarven law. :smallbiggrin:

A bonus strip in the Battle for Azure City showed that Durkon uses holy beer all the time. He is even surprised that human clerics sanctify water.

[Souju]

The key to defeating the worm, is to walk without rhythm.
If you walk without rhythm, you won't attract the worm.

But poor Elan...he's a bard. He'll never learn.

[zimmerwald1915]

A bonus strip in the Battle for Azure City showed that Durkon uses holy beer all the time. He is even surprised that human clerics sanctify water.
:durkon: They probably cannae tell the diff'rence, bless 'em.

[Me!]

How long does the charm last? And would it be against dwarven law to interupt other participants while they speak their case?

Could our heroes (preferably Elan) pull a filibuster and talk until the spell wears off, if they do get into the inner chamber in time?

[Elanasaurus]

It seems Hel is big on thematics and wordplay. Huh. I wonder which civilization's beliefs caused that?I vote "the current one".
How long does the charm last? And would it be against dwarven law to interupt other participants while they speak their case?

Could our heroes (preferably Elan) pull a filibuster and talk until the spell wears off, if they do get into the inner chamber in time?I think it lasts for 12 days. And as much as I love an Elan monologue, only dwarves are allowed into the chamber.

[Jay R]

If you want good wordplay from your followers, you should probably use followers who are more than a few weeks old.

[NoHaxJustPi]

If you want followers to last for more than a few weeks, you’re going to have to keep them from getting killed, which isn’t going to happen.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you want followers to last for more than a few weeks, you’re going to have to keep them from getting killed, which isn’t going to happen. Speaking of getting killed, I just looked up the stats on Nightshade.
Yikes, that's a nasty beastie.

[Curupira]

You know, if I was trying to prevent heroic interference, I'd just destroy the bridges and collapse the hallways. Or at least try to create some blocking-type impediments, the sort of things which are not airtight (and thus are not an impediment to vampires who can do that mist-thing) but which are frustrating, time-consuming, and incredibly tedious for the enemy to get through.

I mean, lady, did you even learn anything from L'olonnais's attacks on Maricaibo and Gibraltar? It doesn't take that long to render an important pathway near-useless for its intended purpose of letting-swift-movement-happen. And then, with the time bought, you can do even more to make the situation be in your favor.

I like the way you think, but Durkon has Wind Walk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) in his spell list. It could render those distractions moot.

[Kish]

re Thrym, I had read his broadcasting as being Elan/Veldrina-like in being unable not to vocalize most of his thoughts, but I see how you could see it as a marker of dishonesty.
Whether honest or dishonest, he should have processed Hel bluntly telling him that her only interest in him was as a resource for her scheme one of the at least two times she did so and stopped acting like she's romantically interested in him long ago.

[Dion]

My (completely outlandish) theory;

Based on the SRD, the nightshade moves by burrowing. So, I think the nightshade is going to burrow holes everywhere, collapse the roof, and expose the vampires to sunlight.

Also, Sigdi will be there for some reason, somehow save the day, and then will be crushed to death while Durkon holds her hand. Or maybe Hilgya will be crushed. Or maybe Belkar.

[Particle_Man]

Or they stop others from being crushed by forming up as a pillar of stone.

[Ruck]

:durkon: They probably cannae tell the diff'rence, bless 'em.

Yeah, there's even a crack about domestic beer in that strip (although I do not remember if Rich used the title to make the old joke about sex in a canoe).

[Dion]

Or they stop others from being crushed by forming up as a pillar of stone.

Quick! Climb on my shoulders and commit a crime!

[Pampukin]

Tsk. What happened to "Speak, friend, and enter"?

Neighborhood isnt what it used to be. Its those damned prestige classes I tell you!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0222.html)

[rbetieh]

Hel needed to team up with Tarquin, the villainy puns would ratchet to an 11.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Dvalin "swore an oath to obey the will of the Council." If they're enthralled, by definition, they've lost their will, which should render their votes invalid.
Dvalin made that oath when he was the king, not a demigod. He therefore identifies something as a valid expression of the will of the council - their vote, for example. I don't see how that would change after his deification, given how unwilling he is to change his ways. If he took the council's vote as an expression of their will, regardless of what backstabbing, blackmail, vote purchasing might have gone on behind the scenes, he still will accept it now.


And Dvalin may only be a demigod but one imagines that he's watching this vote pretty closely...I can't imagine he doesn't know what's going on. But if a reason pops up as to why Dvalin wouldn't be aware of these shenanigans, I will cheerfully withdraw that objection.

Observing a vote too closely causes the vote to not reflect the actual will of the council. That's why when we vote in RL, you get a booth and no-one can see your vote: because public voting means people can be scared to vote their conscience. If you feel that the process must be as close as possible to the true will of the council, then Dvalin must stay as far away from the proceeding as possible so he doesn't influence it at all.

Maybe Rich will point it out, maybe he will not, But even if he doesn’t, you objection has no weight. You can't have it both ways: you can't say that domination invalidates the will of the council, and then claim that the demigod watching them vote doesn't. They both do. So clearly something has to give, and that is the idea that the vote is not definitionally the will of the council, no matter what magical or non-magical means have been used to warp it.

Grey Wolf

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I like the way you think, but Durkon has Wind Walk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) in his spell list. It could render those distractions moot.

Huh. After reading the description of what it does, I wonder why that spell isn't used more often. A few dozen mid-level clerics, and you can get a small army past the defenses of most fortresses. Or, at least, one cleric and you can get a handful of assassins.

Also, Yay! A compliment! May I sig it?

[zimmerwald1915]

To what extent can a collective body be said to have a will at all? Especially if "will" is thought of as "free" - surely the will of a collective will have been determined by the wills of the individuals who make it up, and not have been free at all.

[Dion]

To what extent can a collective body be said to have a will at all?

Oh! I like where this conversation is going!

But what if the Oracle *predicted* what the council would vote?

[Lombard]

Heh. Panel 4 may be the best joke of this arc.

[schmunzel]

And now for something completely different: did anyone notice that the nightcrawler is a single-quiddity creation? As are, by implication, the various vampire spirits?

Yes but I do not expect a non deity to profit by it since Vampires seem to be pretty tough that way.


Extra clan representatives arrive late? Some of the dominated dwarves are induced to break the law before voting, turning them to stone?

My theories on this are:
- Using the hammer on the ceiling may not be a violation. It is neither a spell nor supernatural ability. The hammer causing "destruction" has been signaled.
- It may be possible to cast spells through the blue barrier from the middle chamber.
- it may be possible to enter either chamber through the wall, bypassing the barrier. (See title of 1057).
- Minrah may somehow be important to the plot.
- If any of the vampires can be subverted, they can cause the others to vote no.

Hylgia being the head of her clan as of now since all others are dead/gone

sch

[Rrmcklin]

I'm not sure whether Thrym is just a nice bf candidate or a suitor that's trying too hard, but I'm rooting for the guy.

It seems Hel is big on thematics and wordplay. Huh. I wonder which civilization's beliefs caused that?

Thrym is a classic "nice guy", as should have been made clear after Hel made it clear she has no interesting in him. There's nothing to root for.

Also, this has come up before, but I'm continuously bewildered by this assumption that because the gods can be changed by belief, that they apparently can't just have personality traits and beliefs that are their own.

[zimmerwald1915]

Hylgia being the head of her clan as of now since all others are dead/gone
Society as we know it may treat destitute people as if they did not exist or matter, but in fact, the Firehelms are very much alive.

[Jasdoif]

To what extent can a collective body be said to have a will at all? Especially if "will" is thought of as "free" - surely the will of a collective will have been determined by the wills of the individuals who make it up, and not have been free at all."You are free...to vote."
"Am I?"
"Are you?"

[zimmerwald1915]

"You are free...to vote."
"Am I?"
"Are you?"
I did not understand that reference.

[Jasdoif]

"You are free...to vote."
"Am I?"
"Are you?"I did not understand that reference.That would be Kung Fu Panda (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ca_UOvFQY0).

[Dion]

Hylgia being the head of her clan as of now since all others are dead/gone

I think the only named dwarf we’ve seen so far who *might* be the head of a clan is either Sigdi, or potentially even Durkon himself.

I get the impression that Durkon’s grandfather’s death is somehow important to the story,

It believe it is *possible* that Durkon’s grandfather was a clan elder, and his title passed down to Sigdi (if he was was Sigdi”s father) or to Durkon himself (if he was Tenrin’s father).

Further, *If* he was Tenrin’s father, *and* if the title passed down to Durkon through Tenrin, then I can imagine that the lifting of Durkon’s exile (or whatever) might still prove important during the vote.

But all of this is so far out in the realm of speculation...

[AutomatedTeller]

"Naught but squirmy death" - where did Rich come up with that one? :)

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think it lasts for 12 days. And as much as I love an Elan monologue, only dwarves are allowed into the chamber.

Nah, it lasts as long as the vampire chooses to maintain it plus the twelve days after they stop or die (unless the vampire chooses to release the target outright).

[Jasdoif]

Nah, it lasts as long as the vampire chooses to maintain it plus the twelve days after they stop or die (unless the vampire chooses to release the target outright).Hilgya's reaction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html) suggests it ends with the vampire's death destruction in OotS.

[Goblin_Priest]

So would Silent Spell Word of Recall just be a Thought of Recall?

As amusing as that idea is, clerics are not spontaneous casters. Trouble was probably the last thing he was expecting on that day, "Silent Spell" is not a feat most clerics invest in (given how few they have), and preparing "Silent Spell Word of Recall" is probably not a very common thing to do.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm quite surprised as well. I did not at all expect the Exarch to be able to cast lvl 9 spells.

Let's assume that the Exexarch is the LOWEST POSSIBLE level vampire. Level 5. Let's also assume he started with an 12 in wisdom (aka one of his lower scores for an elite character, which he is because he has cleric levels).

He boosted wis to 13 at level 4, +2 for vampire, +4 for casting Owl's Wisdom on himself.

He can then cast that scroll with a caster level check of 13+, if he misses, he tries again SIX SECONDS LATER, unless he rolls a 1 on a separate wisdom check. He succeeds in using the scroll over 93% of the time, with an average of 15 seconds required.

So you thought Gontor was only level 5 and started with 11 Wis? Because any reasonable vampire cleric build can use that scroll. He does not need to be high level.

[Sir_Norbert]

The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

You skipped all of books IV and V? That was silly; those include some of the very best bits of the story.

[zimmerwald1915]

You skipped all of books IV and V? That was silly; those include some of the very best bits of the story.
Congratulations, you have been successfully trolled.

[gatemansgc]

Heh, you're not alone in this.
We've been having this exact discussion (with these exact talking points) for like 40 pages now.

isn't that typical of the OOTS forums tho?

[KorvinStarmast]

I did not understand that reference.
Not sure why, but my brain went to here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html)when I read that.
Of course, I never saw KFP.

[Peelee]

Not sure why, but my brain went to here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html)when I read that.
Of course, I never saw KFP.

I saw it, but had the same response as zim. Very forgettable movie, IMO.

[Wowlock]

By the end of this, just feed Hel to Snarl...it is nothing less than what she deserves.

[Peelee]

By the end of this, just feed Hel to Snarl...it is nothing less than what she deserves.

But who will bell the cat? Not to mention that, for the gods, this is a significantly lesser deal than it is for the Order.

[Rogar Demonblud]

More on point, who'll volunteer to black bag her, and then who'll volunteer to carry her to the Snarl. The first will likely get blasted with all the power she has, the second will also be fed to the Snarl.

[Reboot]

....who'll volunteer to carry her to the Snarl... [They] will also be fed to the Snarl.

Trebuchets are wonderful things ;)

[Goblin_Priest]

Let's assume that the Exexarch is the LOWEST POSSIBLE level vampire. Level 5. Let's also assume he started with an 12 in wisdom (aka one of his lower scores for an elite character, which he is because he has cleric levels).

He boosted wis to 13 at level 4, +2 for vampire, +4 for casting Owl's Wisdom on himself.

He can then cast that scroll with a caster level check of 13+, if he misses, he tries again SIX SECONDS LATER, unless he rolls a 1 on a separate wisdom check. He succeeds in using the scroll over 93% of the time, with an average of 15 seconds required.

So you thought Gontor was only level 5 and started with 11 Wis? Because any reasonable vampire cleric build can use that scroll. He does not need to be high level.

Huh, casting scrolls is easier than I remembered. I've never seen any fellow player try to cast a scroll without the requirement. And in-story, the only time that was done was by Blackwing, for destructive effect.


Unrelated, but the worm seems small. As in, Large size, or Huge at most. Most worms seem to be gargantuan.

[georgie_leech]

Unrelated, but the worm seems small. As in, Large size, or Huge at most. Most worms seem to be gargantuan.

Dunno, looks significantly larger to me than the Huge Ice Giants the Order fought on the way here.

[The MunchKING]

As amusing as that idea is, clerics are not spontaneous casters. Trouble was probably the last thing he was expecting on that day, "Silent Spell" is not a feat most clerics invest in (given how few they have), and preparing "Silent Spell Word of Recall" is probably not a very common thing to do.

Probably not, but maybe it should be as vocal is the only requirement to cast, so a Silent version couldn't be stopped. (Easily)

EDIT: OK, looking it up it takes a standard action to cast, so a held action or counterspell would probably have time to disrupt it.

[Peelee]

Probably not, but maybe it should be as vocal is the only requirement to cast, so a Silent version couldn't be stopped. (Easily)

EDIT: OK, looking it up it takes a standard action to cast, so a held action or counterspell would probably have time to disrupt it.

Assuming anyone could tell you were casting Thought of Recall. :smalltongue:

[NoHaxJustPi]

I'm fairly certain you can only try to counter/disrupt spellcasting if you can hear or see said casting.

[The Extinguisher]

so im generally confused as to where this is going. Okay, i actually know where its going, a big fight scene between the order and the rest of the vampires where durkon gets to shine with his fancy new hammer and the incredible increase to his aliveness attribute. i guess im more confused on why its going there?

as near as i can tell, the books major themes have all been addressed, and we're in the wrap up stage. We got a dénouement already, that gave us excellent world building to set up the final chapter. this seems so obviously tacked on to have another big fight scene. not that theres anything wrong with big fight scenes, but i cant think of a way that the fight ends in such a way that creates a satisfying arc to a theme. We dont really need to see durkon smacking vampires around, we already got durkon kicking a lot of vampire ass in a much more durkony way earlier.

of course that doesnt mean i want whats there now to be resolved with a non-climax, like the vote not counting. thats even worse. i just think things would have been better resolved if durkon coming back stopped the vote tampering.

i hope im wrong, thats there's something im missing, but im pretty skeptical right now.

[Dire Ferret]

so im generally confused as to where this is going. Okay, i actually know where its going, a big fight scene between the order and the rest of the vampires where durkon gets to shine with his fancy new hammer and the incredible increase to his aliveness attribute. i guess im more confused on why its going there?

as near as i can tell, the books major themes have all been addressed, and we're in the wrap up stage. We got a dénouement already, that gave us excellent world building to set up the final chapter. this seems so obviously tacked on to have another big fight scene. not that theres anything wrong with big fight scenes, but i cant think of a way that the fight ends in such a way that creates a satisfying arc to a theme. We dont really need to see durkon smacking vampires around, we already got durkon kicking a lot of vampire ass in a much more durkony way earlier.

of course that doesnt mean i want whats there now to be resolved with a non-climax, like the vote not counting. thats even worse. i just think things would have been better resolved if durkon coming back stopped the vote tampering.

i hope im wrong, thats there's something im missing, but im pretty skeptical right now.

Based on what I've read from him, I don't feel like Rich would spent his time drawing a dozen more comics just for a fight scene.

[The Extinguisher]

Based on what I've read from him, I don't feel like Rich would spent his time drawing a dozen more comics just for a fight scene.

i definitely disagree. I think a lot of fight scenes get dragged out and extended in the comic purely to get more Fight Scene in them

[Peelee]

I don't think there's going to be a straightforward fight scene though. I think there's a lot of misdirection going on here and it will be resolved significantly faster than we being led to believe.

[InvisibleBison]

Unrelated, but the worm seems small. As in, Large size, or Huge at most. Most worms seem to be gargantuan.

You're quite right. The nightcrawler is, at its thickest section, approximately 1.2 times as thick as the Exarch is tall, and very very approximately 10.5 times as long as the Exarch is tall. The Exarch is probably about 4 feet tall, which would make the nightcrawler approximately 5 feet thick and 42 feet long. This is substantially smaller than the measurements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler) of 100 feet long and 7 feet thick given in the SRD, but quite similar to the 40 foot long, 5 foot thick, Huge sized Frost Worm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/frostWorm.htm).

[The MunchKING]

Assuming anyone could tell you were casting Thought of Recall. :smalltongue:

well there you go! It's Unstoppable!! Well except for an Antimagic Zone, but no magic would work in that anyway. :smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

Assuming anyone could tell you were casting Thought of Recall. :smalltongue:While Thought of Recall would be a purely mental action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#paralysis) since it has no components, even psionic powers (also purely mental actions) can trigger attacks of opportunity and readied actions.

A silent Word of Recall couldn't be identified as word of recall because it has no verbal or somatic components (the Spellcraft check to identify spells being cast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) requires at least one of them), but it could still be interrupted.

so im generally confused as to where this is going. Okay, i actually know where its going, a big fight scene between the order and the rest of the vampires where durkon gets to shine with his fancy new hammer and the incredible increase to his aliveness attribute. i guess im more confused on why its going there?

as near as i can tell, the books major themes have all been addressed, and we're in the wrap up stage. We got a dénouement already, that gave us excellent world building to set up the final chapter. this seems so obviously tacked on to have another big fight scene. not that theres anything wrong with big fight scenes, but i cant think of a way that the fight ends in such a way that creates a satisfying arc to a theme. We dont really need to see durkon smacking vampires around, we already got durkon kicking a lot of vampire ass in a much more durkony way earlier.

of course that doesnt mean i want whats there now to be resolved with a non-climax, like the vote not counting. thats even worse. i just think things would have been better resolved if durkon coming back stopped the vote tampering.

i hope im wrong, thats there's something im missing, but im pretty skeptical right now.We had a bit of back-and-forth on the line between falling action and dénouement (https://www.litcharts.com/literary-devices-and-terms/falling-action) a couple threads back; I think we're in the former, cleaning up the Godsmoot plot threads.


Anyway, up until the use of a ninth-level spell in this comic, I was kind of expecting this to be resolved by the Order simply steamrolling the vampires' plan, what with their resources stretched past the breaking point. Now, though....

I think the book's theme has been "getting hit upside the head by things you assumed you had under control"...and I note there are supposed to be three rings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html), so if the barriers are those same rings, there's still one unaccounted for. I'm guessing that whatever plan HPoH came up with that the Exarch is carrying out, it did not consider the possibility of Durkon or any dwarf in the Order of the Stick, on account of HPoH driving Durkon's body and dragging Durkon's soul around...and to that extent, that whatever properties the third barrier has are not accounted for, and Durkon knows what they is.

So basically I'm expecting Durkon to Durkonalyze the situation, centered on a plan that has a giant Durkon-shaped blind spot...and then the whole plan is going to fall apart because the Exarch can't even quip adequately on his feet. Kinda like the sudden abrupt end of the whole set of "the vampires are going to succeed but Dvalin rejects the vote anyway" proposals, but with Durkon instead of suckage.


Also, I'm expecting some sort of change to the overall status of the Gate plotline to end the book on; the most obvious possibility being Xykon and Redcloak finding the Gate, setting up a race against time to frame the next book. The Order dealing with things at the Council of Clans may be part of the time lost, and/or maybe being at the Council of Clans gets them intelligence/resources that helps them make up for lost time. Hard telling for sure at this point....

I suppose the super-long-shot of "The Snarl breaks out but nothing anyone expects happens, completely altering the context for the next book" isn't strictly impossible; and if that happens I have no idea whatsoever is being set up with the conflict here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I note there are supposed to be three rings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html), so if the barriers are those same rings, there's still one unaccounted for.

In #1157, they call the area between the barriers the middle chamber, so I think the outer chamber is the cave in which the tower stands, and is now defended by the worm.

Grey Wolf

[Verappo]

so im generally confused as to where this is going. Okay, i actually know where its going, a big fight scene between the order and the rest of the vampires where durkon gets to shine with his fancy new hammer and the incredible increase to his aliveness attribute. i guess im more confused on why its going there?

as near as i can tell, the books major themes have all been addressed, and we're in the wrap up stage. We got a dénouement already, that gave us excellent world building to set up the final chapter. this seems so obviously tacked on to have another big fight scene. not that theres anything wrong with big fight scenes, but i cant think of a way that the fight ends in such a way that creates a satisfying arc to a theme. We dont really need to see durkon smacking vampires around, we already got durkon kicking a lot of vampire ass in a much more durkony way earlier.

of course that doesnt mean i want whats there now to be resolved with a non-climax, like the vote not counting. thats even worse. i just think things would have been better resolved if durkon coming back stopped the vote tampering.

i hope im wrong, thats there's something im missing, but im pretty skeptical right now.

I certainly wasn't expecting a setup for a fight scene either, although I'm curious to see what's going to happen.

I recall having the same doubts a few years back, when the "Tarquin chases the Order around the desert" sequence seemed to go on forever with like 3 different climaxes in the span of one fight scene :smallbiggrin:. But that one got around to a point eventually, so I'm guessing something similar might happen here.

Elan and Haley's personal growth moments had already happened before Girard's gate blew up, and the later sequence was a way to tie up their arc in a way. Of course the difference is that Vampire Durkon (the current book's more prominent, personal antagonist) is already defeated, while Tarquin stayed until the end, so I do wonder just how long this one sequence will be.

[Jasdoif]

In #1157, they call the area between the barriers the middle chamber, so I think the outer chamber is the cave in which the tower stands, and is now defended by the worm.I guess it could be the outer chamber, but the cave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1155.html) sure didn't look like a ring to me.

[Resileaf]

I guess it could be the outer chamber, but the cave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1155.html) sure didn't look like a ring to me.

But the platform the building is on would be.

[The Extinguisher]

I certainly wasn't expecting a setup for a fight scene either, although I'm curious to see what's going to happen.

I recall having the same doubts a few years back, when the "Tarquin chases the Order around the desert" sequence seemed to go on forever with like 3 different climaxes in the span of one fight scene :smallbiggrin:. But that one got around to a point eventually, so I'm guessing something similar might happen here.

Elan and Haley's personal growth moments had already happened before Girard's gate blew up, and the later sequence was a way to tie up their arc in a way. Of course the difference is that Vampire Durkon (the current book's more prominent, personal antagonist) is already defeated, while Tarquin stayed until the end, so I do wonder just how long this one sequence will be.

I mean, I definitely consider that an example of a fight scene being stretched out for the sake of more fight scene, so....



We had a bit of back-and-forth on the line between falling action and dénouement (https://www.litcharts.com/literary-devices-and-terms/falling-action) a couple threads back; I think we're in the former, cleaning up the Godsmoot plot threads.


Anyway, up until the use of a ninth-level spell in this comic, I was kind of expecting this to be resolved by the Order simply steamrolling the vampires' plan, what with their resources stretched past the breaking point. Now, though....

I think the book's theme has been "getting hit upside the head by things you assumed you had under control"...and I note there are supposed to be three rings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html), so if the barriers are those same rings, there's still one unaccounted for. I'm guessing that whatever plan HPoH came up with that the Exarch is carrying out, it did not consider the possibility of Durkon or any dwarf in the Order of the Stick, on account of HPoH driving Durkon's body and dragging Durkon's soul around...and to that extent, that whatever properties the third barrier has are not accounted for, and Durkon knows what they is.

So basically I'm expecting Durkon to Durkonalyze the situation, centered on a plan that has a giant Durkon-shaped blind spot...and then the whole plan is going to fall apart because the Exarch can't even quip adequately on his feet. Kinda like the sudden abrupt end of the whole set of "the vampires are going to succeed but Dvalin rejects the vote anyway" proposals, but with Durkon instead of suckage.


Also, I'm expecting some sort of change to the overall status of the Gate plotline to end the book on; the most obvious possibility being Xykon and Redcloak finding the Gate, setting up a race against time to frame the next book. The Order dealing with things at the Council of Clans may be part of the time lost, and/or maybe being at the Council of Clans gets them intelligence/resources that helps them make up for lost time. Hard telling for sure at this point....

I suppose the super-long-shot of "The Snarl breaks out but nothing anyone expects happens, completely altering the context for the next book" isn't strictly impossible; and if that happens I have no idea whatsoever is being set up with the conflict here.

raising the stakes isn't exactly falling action. its like, we started falling, then decided to give rising another try for a little while. ill admit im not generally a fan of a long drawn out falling action and dénouement to begin with, so im not coming at this from the most unbiased approach, but it still feels strange to put a mini-climax after your actual climax.*
again, there's the possibility that the climax hasnt happened yet, in which case what could top Durkon beating the vampire?

[Potatopeelerkin]

Wow, Hel. He really messed that up. What a shameful lack of punning ability. You should strike him down to teach him a lesson. And maybe the rest of the vampires too, while you're at it. Make an example out of them, Vader-style.

I bet Hel would love to have a vamp-Elan on her side.

[Mariele]

I recall having the same doubts a few years back, when the "Tarquin chases the Order around the desert" sequence seemed to go on forever with like 3 different climaxes in the span of one fight scene :smallbiggrin:. But that one got around to a point eventually, so I'm guessing something similar might happen here.

Yeah, but basically the entire point of that scene was that it WAS drawn out because Tarquin was trying to make it go his way--he wasn't letting it end naturally. He was trying to force his own ending on it. Doing the same sort of thing now would just make that scene feel cheap.

I agree that with the inclusion of the worm, this feels like we're trying to set up another big battle. And that would be, what, our third in a row? Until the worm got brought in--which doesn't even seem like it would be an obstacle for a high level adventuring team and just feels kind of out of the left field, imo, or at the very least a half-hearted obstacle that is taking important drama away from the real obstacles inside--it seemed more like setting up technicalities and rules for our heroes to cleverly divert, which would be more satisfying, given that, as some users have mentioned, this whole plot feels a little weak. Putting a monster in front of this feels weird, given that we've already seen tons of vampire battles that felt much more appropriate. I'm not very eloquent, but hopefully I'm getting my point across.

[Verappo]

Yeah, but basically the entire point of that scene was that it WAS drawn out because Tarquin was trying to make it go his way--he wasn't letting it end naturally. He was trying to force his own ending on it. Doing the same sort of thing now would just make that scene feel cheap.

I agree that with the inclusion of the worm, this feels like we're trying to set up another big battle. And that would be, what, our third in a row? Until the worm got brought in--which doesn't even seem like it would be an obstacle for a high level adventuring team and just feels kind of out of the left field, imo, or at the very least a half-hearted obstacle that is taking important drama away from the real obstacles inside--it seemed more like setting up technicalities and rules for our heroes to cleverly divert, which would be more satisfying, given that, as some users have mentioned, this whole plot feels a little weak. Putting a monster in front of this feels weird, given that we've already seen tons of vampire battles that felt much more appropriate. I'm not very eloquent, but hopefully I'm getting my point across.

No, I think you make a lot of sense. This more than anything seems like the moment for a swift surprise turnaround, especially after Durkon's triumphant moment with the hammer. And also considering that we just got back the member of the Order who we know can definitely cast Wind Walk to circumvent that bridge.

And generally it would be funny to see Hel's reaction to the heroes just smashing through her meticulously crafted plan after a whole book of rules lawyering

[Jasdoif]

In #1157, they call the area between the barriers the middle chamber, so I think the outer chamber is the cave in which the tower stands, and is now defended by the worm.I guess it could be the outer chamber, but the cave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1155.html) sure didn't look like a ring to me.But the platform the building is on would be.Hmm...that doesn't sound right, the chamber would be made of way more than the three rings if that's where the division was drawn.

...and this is probably at the point where "would Durkon use these words the way I would use these words" is too prominent to make a convincing case.


raising the stakes isn't exactly falling action. its like, we started falling, then decided to give rising another try for a little while. ill admit im not generally a fan of a long drawn out falling action and dénouement to begin with, so im not coming at this from the most unbiased approach, but it still feels strange to put a mini-climax after your actual climax.*
again, there's the possibility that the climax hasnt happened yet, in which case what could top Durkon beating the vampire?Frankly, I have found a fair amount of the plotting in this book to be a little...off. I assume anything that looks odd is going to pay off in the next book, because the few weird things in the previous books have been that way. (For instance, I'm guessing the somewhat disjointed Command Crisis on the Mechane means the crew of the Mechane is going to play a part in the next book, and the dense character development means they'll be far less of an unknown once everything starts exploding, without having to spend much time establishing it and detracting from the explosions)

That aside...is this raising the stakes? This looks like the same "get the world destroyed" goal as before, implemented by the remaining vampires from before, including the two HPoH dispatched for this very purpose (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html). I think these are the same stakes; we're just seeing the specific tricks used in pursuit of these stakes.

While I was a bit thrown with the scene-setting strip three strips ago...this isn't just a loose end to be tied up after HPoH's defeat, this is the culmination of the Plot from Hel that's been driving the story since it was set up on the last page of the last book; I can't exactly be surprised at it being wrapped up on-screen.

And if this is like those other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) an oversized monster was summoned, it's going to be gone in seven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html) or eight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html) more strips. Seems about right; most of the Order can't get through the dwarf-only barrier (on account of not being dwarves), so this would give them something useful to do: distract the monster so Durkon can get through there and do the real work in short order, after which the monster isn't worth keeping track of. (A nightcrawler even has plane shift, maybe it'll get rid of itself once it realizes how superfluous it is/was)


Although I suppose I can't rule out being completely wrong, especially since I don't feel like I have as a solid a grasp on the book this time around....Maybe there is a bigger climax in the works, and I just haven't seen what form it could take yet.

[Mightymosy]

I don't know if it would be cost efficient strategy, but Word of Recall is exactly the type of spell I'd try to prepare as Silent Spell, if I was playing a cleric.
Scenarios like Redcloak killing Tsukiko come to mind - but maybe you also need Still Spell for that?
Anyway, I like my exit strategies to work as unconditionally as possible.

Anyway, what's a "Gatespender"?
I don't get the joke/reference.

[ijuinkun]

I think the only named dwarf we’ve seen so far who *might* be the head of a clan is either Sigdi, or potentially even Durkon himself.

I get the impression that Durkon’s grandfather’s death is somehow important to the story,

It believe it is *possible* that Durkon’s grandfather was a clan elder, and his title passed down to Sigdi (if he was was Sigdi”s father) or to Durkon himself (if he was Tenrin’s father).

Further, *If* he was Tenrin’s father, *and* if the title passed down to Durkon through Tenrin, then I can imagine that the lifting of Durkon’s exile (or whatever) might still prove important during the vote.

But all of this is so far out in the realm of speculation...

I for one like the idea that one of our protagonists happens to be head of their clan and thus eligible to cast a vote.

[Fyraltari]

Frankly, I have found a fair amount of the plotting in this book to be a little...off. I assume anything that looks odd is going to pay off in the next book, because the few weird things in the previous books have been that way.

Out of curiosity, what were those?

[SociopathFriend]

Anyone else imagine Elan somehow helping filibuster the vote from outside? Presumably by helpfully shouting arguments through the barriers to one of his allies as they're all tangling with the worm and the vamps?

[Mariele]

Thanks, Verappo, glad to know I'm making sense.


And if this is like those other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) an oversized monster was summoned, it's going to be gone in seven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html) or eight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html) more strips. Seems about right; most of the Order can't get through the dwarf-only barrier (on account of not being dwarves), so this would give them something useful to do: distract the monster so Durkon can get through there and do the real work in short order, after which the monster isn't worth keeping track of. (A nightcrawler even has plane shift, maybe it'll get rid of itself once it realizes how superfluous it is/was)

This is the problem, in my opinion, though... the inclusion of these monsters WAS giving the scene high drama. One was a giant demon that clearly posed a threat. The other was summoned to explicitly murder our protagonist, and was summoned by the major villains of the comic, AND was summoned right when the heroes were already beat and it seemed almost impossible. This case with the worm seems to be having the opposite effect. We've already got a bunch of barriers set up to give the heroes a mental challenge... and then we throw a monster on top for a fully healed and cleric'd up team to plow through. The idea that it will be gone in just a few pages is the problem. It just doesn't seem to be adding anything to the story and seems to be detracting from the real tension, is what I'm saying. We don't need the Order distracted, nor does it give them much of a hindrance.

I mean, I could say that this worm thing will actually be a serious trial for them, and the Order will have to send Durkon ahead alone or something, because it's so tough that there's no way they'll defeat it in time, etc etc. But it seems a bit strange if it goes like that? We already just had a bunch of big, tense battles. But Rich has been known to throw these sometimes, aka, the entire pyramid-to-desert scene, which was nothing but trial after trial after trial... and I felt like that ended up being really well-written, so as usual, I'll just wait and see how it looks overall.

I will add that I felt like the writing in Blood Runs in the Family/whole Tarquin arc was the best in the comic yet, and everything after that has felt a little iffy.

Edit: hee hee... I forgot how much the "maybe you're squeezing him too hard?" gag made me lol

[Fyraltari]

Anyone else imagine Elan somehow helping filibuster the vote from outside? Presumably by helpfully shouting arguments through the barriers to one of his allies as they're all tangling with the worm and the vamps?
The blue barrier is soundproof.

[M.A.D]

Anyway, what's a "Gatespender"?
I don't get the joke/reference.

It's the opposite of "Gatekeeper"

[Quebbster]

Regarding the Three rings of the council chamber, I assume they are all inside the council chamber since they are all supposed to have their own set of... [I assume rules]. Don't really see the middle chamber having those special rules - "only dwarves may pass" and "no outside enchantments" doesn't Count as rules in my headcanon.
I could absolutely be wrong, but it seems like the Three rings sets it up for where Durkon and the vamp try to see who can rules lawyer Dwarven law the hardest. It would be a very different kind of battle.
Meanwhile, the worm may or may not get the vampire goliath treatment (that big guy was a goliath, right?).

[Ghostfriendly]

8 pages already...space for one more verse aboot te Lambton Worm?

"This feorful worm would often feed,
On caalves, and lambs and sheep,
And swally little bairns alive
When they laid doon te sleep.
And when he'd eaten aall he cud
And he had had he's fill,
He craaled away an laaped he's tail
Ten times roond Penshaw hill.

"Whist! Lads, haad yor gobs,
Aall tell ye all an aaful story,
Whist! Lads, haad yor gobs,
And Aa'll tel ye boot the worm."

Don't forget to cut it into THREE halves, gang, and if you can work that one out, defeating the vampires should be a cinch.

[Clistenes]

Hmm, I was thinking a Neothelid due to the lack of eyes, but yeah, thematically a Nightcrawler makes more sense.

Rich really wants to keep the Order away from the highest levels, it seems...

[Borris]

Dunno, looks significantly larger to me than the Huge Ice Giants the Order fought on the way here.

Frost giants are large, not huge.

[hamishspence]

Unrelated, but the worm seems small. As in, Large size, or Huge at most. Most worms seem to be gargantuan.

Xykon's Dragon, as an ancient silver (according to Paladin Blues bonus strip) would be Gargantuan. It looks pretty comparable to this worm in bulk:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html

[paddyfool]

Question for those who've actually played mid to high level 3.5: how nasty is a nightcrawler compared to its CR of 18?

[Goblin_Priest]

You're quite right. The nightcrawler is, at its thickest section, approximately 1.2 times as thick as the Exarch is tall, and very very approximately 10.5 times as long as the Exarch is tall. The Exarch is probably about 4 feet tall, which would make the nightcrawler approximately 5 feet thick and 42 feet long. This is substantially smaller than the measurements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler) of 100 feet long and 7 feet thick given in the SRD, but quite similar to the 40 foot long, 5 foot thick, Huge sized Frost Worm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/frostWorm.htm).

Doesn't look at all like a frost worm, though, unless it has some nasty templates on it (half-fiend from worm?)


Xykon's Dragon, as an ancient silver (according to Paladin Blues bonus strip) would be Gargantuan. It looks pretty comparable to this worm in bulk:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html


Dunno, looks significantly larger to me than the Huge Ice Giants the Order fought on the way here.

Well, compare with the purple worm out in the desert, that the whole party was riding on, and that Haley and Elan could do monkey business discretely on.

The purple worm is a gargantuan 80 feet long worm.

Now sure, for cool effect, the purple worm was maybe enlarged (or an advanced colossal version, though the saves on that would probably be fair?), and the dragon(s) perhaps shrinked.

But to me, no, the worm doesn't really look much bigger than the frost giants.

All that said, we do know Rich takes liberties with sizes, such as essentially making goblins medium-sized. Not making a fuss over it, just wondering if it should be taken into consideration when trying to guess what this specific worm is.

[KorvinStarmast]

Trebuchets are wonderful things ;) I am trying to make a joke about Hel-fire missiles. Not making progress so far.
Unrelated, but the worm seems small. That's not what she said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html).

i definitely disagree. I think a lot of fight scenes get dragged out and extended in the comic purely to get more Fight Scene in them Well, it is a D&D based story, and D&D has a lot of fighting in it, so I think that's internally consistent to the genre. (I guess tastes will differ on that).
I think the book's theme has been "getting hit upside the head by things you assumed you had under control".. Yeah, and that's even a theme in previous books, like the issue of only asking the oracle about two gates ...
And generally it would be funny to see Hel's reaction to the heroes just smashing through her meticulously crafted plan after a whole book of rules lawyering That would be nice.
Maybe there is a bigger climax in the works, and I just haven't seen what form it could take yet. The climax, or mini climax, that is looming seems to me to need to be built as a bridge to the next book - I remember learning when I was writing monographs for an advanced degree that transition sentences are comparatively easy to write, but getting to transition paragraphs and transition pages takes a bit more craftsmanship. Likewise with narrative based transitions.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe there is a bigger climax in the works, and I just haven't seen what form it could take yet.

I'm still tentatively putting my money on a kick-ass-take-names victory lap for Durkon. I agree it does seem to be taking up a bit too much set-up time if it was just going to be that, so I'll side-bet on Hilgya character development. No, I don't care to speculate what direction the development will take, but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm still tentatively putting my money on a kick-ass-take-names victory lap for Durkon. I agree it does seem to be taking up a bit too much set-up time if it was just going to be that, so I'll side-bet on Hilgya character development. No, I don't care to speculate what direction the development will take, but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution.
Is it close to the dwarven new year?

I'll get my coat ...

[Fyraltari]

I'm still tentatively putting my money on a kick-ass-take-names victory lap for Durkon. I agree it does seem to be taking up a bit too much set-up time if it was just going to be that
Honestly I could see that much set up serving as an anti-climax joke with Durkon just strolling in and solving all that in one page with proper use of his new hammer, clerical power and foreknowledge of the plan.

so I'll side-bet on Hilgya character development. No, I don't care to speculate what direction the development will take, but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution.

Grey Wolf

Oh yeah, that is sure money.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is it close to the dwarven new year?

I'll get my coat ...

...

...

...

OK, I'm almost certain this is a reference to something. But I'm afraid it's gone completely over my head.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

...

...

...

OK, I'm almost certain this is a reference to something. But I'm afraid it's gone completely over my head.

Grey Wolf

New years resolution

[Grey_Wolf_c]

New years resolution

Sorry, I'm still a bit at sea as to how this fits with my comment.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

You're quite right. The nightcrawler is, at its thickest section, approximately 1.2 times as thick as the Exarch is tall, and very very approximately 10.5 times as long as the Exarch is tall. The Exarch is probably about 4 feet tall, which would make the nightcrawler approximately 5 feet thick and 42 feet long. This is substantially smaller than the measurements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler) of 100 feet long and 7 feet thick given in the SRD, but quite similar to the 40 foot long, 5 foot thick, Huge sized Frost Worm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/frostWorm.htm).

A "regular" purple worm is also 5 ft thick, and is Gargantuan.

I think the best reasons for Nightcrawler are - it's naturally Extraplanar, which means it doesn't need any templates to be summonable via Gate, and it's Undead, so makes sense as a servitor of Hel.

[Fyraltari]

Sorry, I'm still a bit at sea as to how this fits with my comment.

Grey Wolf

Hilgya needs a new year resolution? To be a better person.

[Aveline]

Sorry, I'm still a bit at sea as to how this fits with my comment.

Grey Wolf

"...but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution." The joke is that New Year's Day is a traditional time to make "resolutions".

Edit: I am honored to have Fyraltari as my personal ninja.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

New years resolution

Also, in some dwarven societies, it's customary to use a coat in the new year's eve. And that's when they make bets on things that will happen in that year.


... yeah, I'll also get my coat.

[InvisibleBison]

Doesn't look at all like a frost worm, though, unless it has some nasty templates on it (half-fiend from worm?)


A "regular" purple worm is also 5 ft thick, and is Gargantuan.

I think the best reasons for Nightcrawler are - it's naturally Extraplanar, which means it doesn't need any templates to be summonable via Gate, and it's Undead, so makes sense as a servitor of Hel.

I see I didn't phrase my earlier comment as well as I could have. I wasn't trying to suggest that this creature isn't a nightcrawler. I was simply saying that it's smaller than the "official" nightcrawler is described as being, and coincidentally about the same size as a frost worm.

[georgie_leech]

Frost giants are large, not huge.

Apparently I misremembered. Oops.

[hamishspence]

Apparently I misremembered. Oops.

I think it's 4e to 5e that made the change - 4e had several giants (which were previously only Large or only Huge) come in both Huge and Large versions (the Huge ones were called Titans).

And 5e had, as I recall, all the giants be Huge (even ones that were only Large in 3e).

[georgie_leech]

I think it's 4e to 5e that made the change - 4e had several giants (which were previously only Large or only Huge) come in both Huge and Large versions (the Huge ones were called Titans).

And 5e had, as I recall, all the giants be Huge (even ones that were only Large in 3e).

Yeah, I'm probably remembering from 5e, given that it's the edition I play more often these days. I went to the SRD to check, but... I didn't scroll past Cloud Giant because I was lazy :smallredface: half-asset double checking doesn't count.

[Doug Lampert]

Huh, casting scrolls is easier than I remembered. I've never seen any fellow player try to cast a scroll without the requirement. And in-story, the only time that was done was by Blackwing, for destructive effect.

IME many 3.x players seem to have been ludicrously conservative with consumables and XP costs.

If you crafted and used consumables and other gear, you could double or triple overall party effectiveness and power, even one extra encounter more than paid for the costs, and if your GM is not pulling his punches then not being killed or having a TPK is golden.

Crafting and consumables are REALLY REALLY GOOD in 3.x and over-leveled scrolls are one of the best consumables. A scroll of a 9th level spell without component costs is only 3,825 GP (quite affordable, and within many communities purchase limit), and at level 7 you can get it to go off on a roll of 11+, and it misfires only on a natural 1 on a separate check.

Over-leveled scrolls are something the good guys in a comic like the OotS can't be shown using, because it opens the question of why they don't simply steamroll everything. How many ninth level spells can they afford scrolls of (3,825 GP is less than double what Elan wastes "haggling" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) without Haley even caring).

The world of OotS is very badly optimized, lack of over-leveled scrolls is part of the poor optimization.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(3,825 GP is less than double what Elan wastes "haggling" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) without Haley even caring)

I suspect she does care, she just accepts it as the cost of having a boyfriend she can trust. That she puts Elan ahead of her greed is a mark of her character development, but she still cares about money quite a bit, and, budget or not, she does try to stop him from haggling.

Not that any of this in any way weakens your overall point that it'd be trivially cheap for the OotS to (ab)use scrolls, mind you.

Grey Wolf

[Fish]

I'm still tentatively putting my money on a kick-ass-take-names victory lap for Durkon. I agree it does seem to be taking up a bit too much set-up time if it was just going to be that, so I'll side-bet on Hilgya character development. No, I don't care to speculate what direction the development will take, but thinking about it, she needs some form of resolution.
I completely agree. We have a designated Story Climax Area where only dwarves can go. This suggests there is one set of plot points which gets resolved by and among the dwarves — meaning Durkon, Hilgya + Kudzu, Minrah, and possibly Durkon's mother and adopted family, working out how to protect the council vote, save the world, debate the merits of the council defenses, devolve into petty personal attacks, observe Hilgya's heroic sacrifice, decide what to do about Kudzu, spin off into irrelevant tangents, etc.*

Those that remain (viz, Roy, Elan, Haley, Vaarsuvius, and Belkar) will be left outside to fight the worm, which was summoned outside the orange nondwarfectomy barrier. I don't know if there's a way for the hypodwarfic members of the Order to penetrate that barrier, so that suggests they'll only have the plot points that remain to them (Vaarsuvius and the IFCC, for instance).

My bold prediction:
1. Belkar finds a way to get past the orange barrier. Maybe he's in the Bag of Holding, maybe the reason we haven't been told about Belkar's family is because he's half-dwarfish, whatever.
2. Belkar's character journey has led to his gaining a point of wisdom, allowing him to cast spells.
3. Belkar casts a spell to save Durkon, which triggers the blue anti-magic ward. Belkar gets turned to stone. It might be difficult to return him to normal (at least while the meeting lasts) because breaking that enchantment could trigger the anti-magic ward again. And if a vampire is left in charge, the meeting could go on forever...

Yeah, I don't think it's going to come true either, but what would the forum be without baseless speculation?

*You know, like the forum does.

[Peelee]

My bold prediction:
1. Belkar finds a way to get past the orange barrier. Maybe he's in the Bag of Holding, maybe the reason we haven't been told about Belkar's family is because he's half-dwarfish, whatever.
2. Belkar's character journey has led to his gaining a point of wisdom, allowing him to cast spells.
3. Belkar casts a spell to save Durkon, which triggers the blue anti-magic ward. Belkar gets turned to stone. It might be difficult to return him to normal (at least while the meeting lasts) because breaking that enchantment could trigger the anti-magic ward again. And if a vampire is left in charge, the meeting could go on forever...

Yeah, I don't think it's going to come true either, but what would the forum be without baseless speculation?

Its been a long time since I've done this since someone got me to realize it's typically rude, but I have the feeling you won't mind this one:

Fixed that for you.:smallamused:

[Breccia]

I just want to say this


Who's going to get swallowed?
I vote Belkar.

plus this


So the orange barrier dispells?

I guess Bloodfest is about to wreck havoc.

beats anything I would have come up with! Remember, the worm can pass the barrier, it's not being held in place by a summoning spell.

[Resileaf]

I feel like the worm's first attack is going to be devastating, since nightcrawlers can become invisible at will, as well as burrow. If no one has true sight activated when they get on the bridge, he might deal a huge blow to the Order.

[Fyraltari]

Remember, the worm can pass the barrier, it's not being held in place by a summoning spell.

I gotta say, that's the weirdest looking dwarf I've ever seen.

[The Extinguisher]

Frankly, I have found a fair amount of the plotting in this book to be a little...off. I assume anything that looks odd is going to pay off in the next book, because the few weird things in the previous books have been that way. (For instance, I'm guessing the somewhat disjointed Command Crisis on the Mechane means the crew of the Mechane is going to play a part in the next book, and the dense character development means they'll be far less of an unknown once everything starts exploding, without having to spend much time establishing it and detracting from the explosions)

That aside...is this raising the stakes? This looks like the same "get the world destroyed" goal as before, implemented by the remaining vampires from before, including the two HPoH dispatched for this very purpose (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html). I think these are the same stakes; we're just seeing the specific tricks used in pursuit of these stakes.

While I was a bit thrown with the scene-setting strip three strips ago...this isn't just a loose end to be tied up after HPoH's defeat, this is the culmination of the Plot from Hel that's been driving the story since it was set up on the last page of the last book; I can't exactly be surprised at it being wrapped up on-screen.

And if this is like those other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) an oversized monster was summoned, it's going to be gone in seven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html) or eight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html) more strips. Seems about right; most of the Order can't get through the dwarf-only barrier (on account of not being dwarves), so this would give them something useful to do: distract the monster so Durkon can get through there and do the real work in short order, after which the monster isn't worth keeping track of. (A nightcrawler even has plane shift, maybe it'll get rid of itself once it realizes how superfluous it is/was)


Although I suppose I can't rule out being completely wrong, especially since I don't feel like I have as a solid a grasp on the book this time around....Maybe there is a bigger climax in the works, and I just haven't seen what form it could take yet.

Right? This book more than any is going to be worth the reread when its all over.

Its raising the tension i guess, not the stakes. Weve neen winding down, getting some good post fight punchlines and wrap up, and now were building up for another big action set piece. Which seems inconsistent to the expected narrative outcome of durkons cleanup victory lap.

I think this might only work if we end on a cliff hanger into the next book. If something incredibly unexpected happens here, and dramatically changes the narrative for the future story.

Im still pretty hopeful overall, because i think the endings, in general, are the strongest parts of each book.

[Fish]

Its been a long time since I've done this since someone got me to realize it's typically rude, but I have the feeling you won't mind this one:

Fixed that for you.:smallamused:
Thanks for helping me save (bold)face.