Preventing Counterspells (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

How would you avoid any counterspells done against you? Lets say the situation is in Epic so basically all resources are in the table. The enemy has Epic Counterspell, access to all spells and more slots than you though. Essentially, he can just counterspell you and have to spare and no action required. To up the difficulty he also has Battlemagic perception and Spellcaster's Bane, so he knows at all times when you're casting and what you're casting.

So far the following are the options I have found. Will add any suggestions.
-Innate Spell
-Supernatural Spell
-PrC abilities that convert spells to SLA (Archmage, Runesmith, etc)
-StP Erudite
-Block line of effect

[ben-zayb]

Retraining to becone a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
Preventing Line of Effect?
Lead sheet to stop his divination from detecting your spells?

[JNAProductions]

Mind Rape someone into loving him, and then casting Love's Pain repeatedly from your own personal (fast-time, if you like) Demiplane?

[BowStreetRunner]

You need to beat his action economy. Normally, countering a spell is a readied action, so casting two spells (one as a swift action) will allow you to get one of the spells off successfully. With Battlemagic Perception, your opponent can attempt to counter as a free action (I think this should probably be immediate, but the copy of the book I have says free), however this ends Battlemagic Perception. So two counterspells would be possible the first round in this case, but unless they re-cast Battlemagic Perception they will only be able to counter two spells the next round.

Having more than one caster in the party should allow spells to get through even with Battlemagic Perception, as the opponent will only be able to get two spells per round.

[ben-zayb]

You need to beat his action economy.Epic. Counterspell.

[flappeercraft]

Retraining to becone a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
Preventing Line of Effect?
Lead sheet to stop his divination from detecting your spells?

Good idead, will add. Although the lead sheet does not work. That only works with scrying descriptor spells.


Mind Rape someone into loving him, and then casting Love's Pain repeatedly from your own personal (fast-time, if you like) Demiplane?

I guess that could work but not really in a situation such as this one. Maybe if you know you are going to get into it in the future to avoid it though.

[BowStreetRunner]

Epic. Counterspell.My bad. I was looking at Epic Counterspell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/epicCounterspell.htm).

[ben-zayb]

My bad. I was looking at Epic Counterspell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/epicCounterspell.htm).Oh, that makes sense. Darn it, WotC!

[SaintNick]

Would Delay Spell + Time Stop work?

The description for Delay Spell seems to indicate you have to attempt the Dispel during the Delay period and not once the effect takes hold.

[flappeercraft]

Would Delay Spell + Time Stop work?

The description for Delay Spell seems to indicate you have to attempt the Dispel during the Delay period and not once the effect takes hold.

Actually it indicates it can as an addition be dispelled during the delay period, nowhere does it state it can't be after. Plus counterspelling with Epic Counterspell does not need to use Dispel Magic or its variants, just a spell slot of a level higher and of the same school.

[magic9mushroom]

Actually it indicates it can as an addition be dispelled during the delay period, nowhere does it state it can't be after. Plus counterspelling with Epic Counterspell does not need to use Dispel Magic or its variants, just a spell slot of a level higher and of the same school.

You could dispel, but not counterspell. Epic Counterspell only gives infinite counterspells; dispelling still takes an action (albeit one of many with Multispell). Of course, you've got to actually cast the Time Stop first, which between their counterspelling and possible Spell Stowaway is not necessarily trivial.

Another option is to disrupt their casting. Counterspelling is still casting a spell. However, it's not entirely clear from Epic Counterspell's RAW whether they can simply immediately make another counterspell attempt (it's clear you can make ∞ counterspell attempts per round, but it's not clear whether you can attempt to counter the same spell more than once). That said, RAW they provoke every time they Epic Counterspell (since while it requires Quicken Spell, it doesn't mention its anti-AoO effect), so having someone stand next to them with Mage Slayer + Improved Combat Reflexes and enough damage-per-hit to make the Concentration DC unpassable would force them to give up eventually (or die). Hindering Song would also work (as it's continuous), but the Concentration DC isn't all that high.

A third option is to have them AMFed (friendly beholder, Imbue Arrow, etc.), to force them to use epic slots (which run out fast). Doesn't work if they have Initiate of Mystra.

[emeraldstreak]

Turn your spells into supernatural abilities.

[ben-zayb]

That said, RAW they provoke every time they Epic Counterspell (since while it requires Quicken Spell, it doesn't mention its anti-AoO effect)What's interesting is that by SRD RAW, spells that take swift action (Quickened or not) or free action to cast don't provoke AoO. But since Epic Counterspell doesn't identify an action for countering, we defer to the general rule that casting a spell provokes AoO, making the above statement correct. AFAIK, at least. Ridiculous RAW, but it is what it is.


Also, while Otiluke's Suppressing Field/Sphere keyed to Divination will not by itself prevent counterspells, it can suppress rhe effects of Battlemagic Perception and Spellcaster's Bane.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cast Project Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/projectImage.htm) (preferably with Invisible Spell) and use that as the source of the spells you cast, while you're out of line of sight/effect from the counterspeller but maintaining line of sight/effect to the Projected Image.


Alternatively,

Contingency: Any time someone tries to counter one of my spells, Teleport myself to the space behind that creature.

You get to AoO his counterspell attempt and hopefully have some kind of disable effect on your attack (Sudden Stunning weapon, Silencing Strike, Lich paralyzing touch, etc.), or you have Mage Slayer and he automatically fails his counterspell attempts if he casts defensively.


Edit: A third option:

Have an intelligent magic item that can counterspell his counterspell (similar to a Dagger of Denial). Intelligent items count as constructs, they get their own actions in combat, and they can activate any of their own spells. You can't counterspell a spell activated from a magic item (as long as it's not spell trigger or spell completion, as those are still cast).


Fourth option?

The core Counterspell rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#counterspells) state that you target the creature whose spell you're counterspelling. To target a creature with any spell, including a counterspell, you must be able to see or touch that creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets). Provided there aren't any exceptions specifically calling this out (Battlemagic Perception says you must have line of effect, but it doesn't say you no longer need line of sight, it's an additional requirement, not an exception), you should be able to use Darkstalker + Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank or similar divination-immunity to get around anyone being able to counterspell you.

[Necroticplague]

Turn your spells into supernatural abilities.

Or SPell-like Abilities

[Mr Adventurer]

They need to be in their range of the spell you are casting if they are counterspelling with the same spell. So for example you'd normally have to be in Touch range to counterspell, say, Shocking Grasp. So, Reach Spell or similar means touch-range spells can't be counterspelled by the normal method.

'Being a long way away' might also work for other reasons, e.g. Dispel Magic only has Medium range, Battlemagic Perception a 100' sense range...

[magic9mushroom]

Fourth option?

The core Counterspell rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#counterspells) state that you target the creature whose spell you're counterspelling. To target a creature with any spell, including a counterspell, you must be able to see or touch that creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets). Provided there aren't any exceptions specifically calling this out (Battlemagic Perception says you must have line of effect, but it doesn't say you no longer need line of sight, it's an additional requirement, not an exception), you should be able to use Darkstalker + Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank or similar divination-immunity to get around anyone being able to counterspell you.

Darkstalker is redundant with Superior Invisibility, as Superior Invisibility blocks everything Darkstalker does (as well as other stuff that Darkstalker doesn't).

True Seeing vs. Mind Blank is a bit of a grey area, and there have been many arguments about it.

What isn't a grey area, though, is Spot. If you can hit a Spot DC of 80, you ignore illusions. With a +30 competence item and the notorious Fortify seed boosting Wis, that's quite achievable. Greater Concealing Amorpha might work on that, if it's read 100% literally and cheesily (it's very powerful even as Displacement), but I can't think of much else that would do it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Darkstalker is redundant with Superior Invisibility, as Superior Invisibility blocks everything Darkstalker does (as well as other stuff that Darkstalker doesn't).

True Seeing vs. Mind Blank is a bit of a grey area, and there have been many arguments about it.

What isn't a grey area, though, is Spot. If you can hit a Spot DC of 80, you ignore illusions. With a +30 competence item and the notorious Fortify seed boosting Wis, that's quite achievable. Greater Concealing Amorpha might work on that, if it's read 100% literally and cheesily (it's very powerful even as Displacement), but I can't think of much else that would do it.

Even a high enough Spot check doesn't give you line of sight to an invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) creature, it just allows you to know what square they're in. Even then, "Visually undetectable" is pretty strongly worded. Even making the spot check doesn't negate the invisible creature's total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment), which completely removes any possibility of having line of sight to the creature. So targeting them in order to counterspell is still impossible, unless they can somehow see through it.

RAW vs RAI regarding Mind Blank aside, if the opponent has a Song of the Dead True Seeing, it's a necromancy spell and gets around any immunity to divination effects...


Snowsight + Obscuring Snow would also work for thwarting line of sight to prevent counterspelling, but that's weapons-grade cheese.

[magic9mushroom]

Even a high enough Spot check doesn't give you line of sight to an invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) creature, it just allows you to know what square they're in. Even then, "Visually undetectable" is pretty strongly worded. Even making the spot check doesn't negate the invisible creature's total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment), which completely removes any possibility of having line of sight to the creature. So targeting them in order to counterspell is still impossible, unless they can somehow see through it.

There are several different Spot checks to find invisible creatures, and I believe you're thinking of a different one than I'm talking about. DC 20 (active)/30 (alive+inactive)/40 (object/nonliving) detects the presence of something invisible. Add 20 to the appropriate DC and you can pinpoint the square, although as you said they still have total concealment.

However, what I'm talking about is the DC 80 check from the Epic Level Handbook (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot).


Defeat Illusion: You can automatically detect any illusion
with a visual component for what it truly is. No Will save
is required, and you don't have to interact with the illusion
(but you must be able to see it).

This is the check to actually see them, overcoming the Invisibility spell itself with the power of your senses. Epic skills sometimes live up to their name.

[Mr Adventurer]

I would say invisibility by definition doesn't have a visual component, my dude.

[SaintNick]

You could dispel, but not counterspell. Epic Counterspell only gives infinite counterspells; dispelling still takes an action (albeit one of many with Multispell). Of course, you've got to actually cast the Time Stop first, which between their counterspelling and possible Spell Stowaway is not necessarily trivial.

I was thinking you would cast Time Stop at some distant location (another plane works too) then use Wish to teleport within range, Delay Cast a number of spells, and then teleport out using Wish again before the Time Stop ends.

[magic9mushroom]

I was thinking you would cast Time Stop at some distant location (another plane works too) then use Wish to teleport within range, Delay Cast a number of spells, and then teleport out using Wish again before the Time Stop ends.

I did say "not necessarily trivial", not "impossible". :P

As an aside, Ward and Mythal seeds can be set up to block Wish and/or Time Stop. Whether blocking Wish actually works is a bit of a grey area, though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionics can neither counterspell nor be counterspelled.

Neither can (Su) abilities. Note that (Su) abilities cannot be dispelled or disjunction'd, either, so be a psionic manifester and take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) to turn your psi into (Su) and watch as the only way to counter your powers is to AMF them. Even that doesn't work so well if you dip into three levels of cleric of Mystra and a feat.

[magic9mushroom]

Psionics can neither counterspell nor be counterspelled.

Neither can (Su) abilities. Note that (Su) abilities cannot be dispelled or disjunction'd, either, so be a psionic manifester and take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) to turn your psi into (Su) and watch as the only way to counter your powers is to AMF them. Even that doesn't work so well if you dip into three levels of cleric of Mystra and a feat.

Initiate of Mystra doesn't let you use (Su) abilities or SLAs inside an AMF. It is highly dubious whether it lets you manifest powers inside an AMF, since transparency doesn't extend to feats (that would lead to chaos, as you could apply metapsionic feats to spells and do all sorts of other crazy things). Supernatural Transformation doesn't work on manifesting gained from class levels because it only works on "innate spell-like abilities".

Also, do note that we're talking about Epic, and epic spells can override AMF anyway so IoM isn't quite as big a deal (though it is still a big deal).

[Necroticplague]

Supernatural Transformation doesn't work on manifesting gained from class levels because it only works on "innate spell-like abilities".

Psionics are explicitly called out as innate in the first paragraph of Expanded Psionic.

Simply put, psionics is the art of tapping the mind’s potential. A psionic character is blessed with a form of innate ability that enables him or her to use mental power to achieve goals or perform tasks that nonpsionic characters can accomplish—if they’re even capable of doing them at all—only by using gross physical skills such as brute strength or raw agility, or by using intellect or force of will distinct from the natural power of the mind itself.