Unbodied Psion

[Pippin]

Hi there.

If you decide to play an Unbodied Telepath (XPH p216) and take your first level in Psion (Telepath)...

1. Do you have 4 or 5 Hit Dice?
2. Should you take the Practiced Manifester feat, how many manifester levels would you gain?
3. Is there any way at all to get rid of the entire LA before Epic levels?

Thanks a lot.

[OgresAreCute]

1. 5 HD, 1 from Psion and 4 from your race. You only replace the first RHD with a class level if that's your only RHD (i.e. a 1d8 humanoid Elf can replace their first hit die with a class level, a 2d8 humanoid Lizardfolk can't).

2. "Your manifester level for the chosen manifesting class increases by four. This benefit can't increase your manifester level higher than your Hit Dice." You have the same number of HD and ML, so it would do nothing unless you had more HD that didn't progress manifesting from somewhere.

3. Ask your DM nicely. :smallamused:
As LA Buyoff is written in UA, you would only be able to buy off your first LA when you reach ECL 20 (reducing you to ECL 19), since you need 3 x LA class levels to buy it off and RHD don't count. So when you hit Epic, you'll have 4 RHD, 3 LA and 14 Psion levels (or other class levels). Nine levels later after buying off the first point, you can buy off another point, making you ECL 27. Again 6 levels later, you're now ECL 32. 3 levels later, you're now ECL 34 and have bought off all your LA. I don't know of any way to get it earlier other than asking your DM to let you count RHD as class levels for the purposes of buyoff, or just asking for an LA reduction altogether.

Those numbers might not be exactly precise if I bunged something up, but you'll be well into epic by the time you buy it all off RAW.

[KillianHawkeye]

1. If you are a monster with 4 Hit Dice, and you add a class level, then you have 5 Hit Dice. Swapping a racial Hit Die for a class level is only for single Hit Die creatures. 4 + 1 = 5.

2. You wouldn't gain anything as your Manifester Level is already equal to your Hit Dice.

3. Not with the standard Level Adjustment reduction rules in Unearthed Arcana. I'm not sure what other ways exist that might work, but I doubt you can pull it off.

[OgresAreCute]

If all you want to do is be a floaty guy psion, you could do it for less LA by taking a few levels in the Ghost template savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a).

[Pippin]

Thanks a lot for your help.


If all you want to do is be a floaty guy psion, you could do it for less LA by taking a few levels in the Ghost template savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a).
Actually I was hoping that I had found a way to get a free +4 bonus to ML out of Practiced Manifester, but I see I was mistaken now.

[OgresAreCute]

Thanks a lot for your help.


Actually I was hoping that I had found a way to get a free +4 bonus to ML out of Practiced Manifester, but I see I was mistaken now.

Yes, sadly all game mechanics essentially interact only with HD and LA is never part of that calculation.

[Rebel7284]

The only way I know of removing LA is the incarnate construct spell. However, that removes special attacks which removes your manifesting

[KillianHawkeye]

The only way I know of removing LA is the incarnate construct spell. However, that removes special attacks which removes your manifesting

Would that even work on an incorporeal creature? :smallconfused:

[Rebel7284]

Would that even work on an incorporeal creature? :smallconfused:

It would require some shenanigans for sure, such as one of the several prestige classes that turn you into a construct, multiple casting of Polymorph any Object (which may also remove your racial manifesting) or any other way that makes your count as a construct permanently or instantaneously.

[Crake]

The psion uncarnate prestige class pretty much transforms you into an unbodied over the course of it's 10 levels. You lose 4 levels of manifesting, which is roughly equivilent to the 4LA you'd have from being unbodied in the first place, however you would have 4 class levels instead of just 4 empty LA, which means practised manifester would actually grant you increased ML from those levels.

[frogglesmash]

The entry for pixies as characters in MMI says that they exchange their racial hit die for their first class level. From this you could reasonably extrapolate that all monsters exchange their first racial hit die for their their first class level. This would mean that an unbodied psion would 3 RHD, and one class level. Of course, I would not be at all surprised if someone came along with direct rules quotes to refute this argument.

[Pippin]

Additional question. Does Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester stack with bloodline levels by RAW? I sense it doesn't...

[Crake]

The entry for pixies as characters in MMI says that they exchange their racial hit die for their first class level. From this you could reasonably extrapolate that all monsters exchange their first racial hit die for their their first class level. This would mean that an unbodied psion would 3 RHD, and one class level. Of course, I would not be at all surprised if someone came along with direct rules quotes to refute this argument.

As requested, savage species page 13 (sidebar: 1 Hit Die Creatures) specifically says that only creatures with 1RHD may give up their racial HD for a class level, creatures with 2 or more racial HD do not get access to this benefit. Pixies reiterate this rule in their pixies as characters section, and in general, rules are never done through extrapolation. They are either explicitly stated, or not a rule.


Additional question. Does Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester stack with bloodline levels by RAW? I sense it doesn't...

Since bloodline levels don't actually give you HD, and practised spellcaster/manifester only gives you CL/ML up to your HD, no, it doesn't.

[KillianHawkeye]

The psion uncarnate prestige class pretty much transforms you into an unbodied over the course of it's 10 levels. You lose 4 levels of manifesting, which is roughly equivilent to the 4LA you'd have from being unbodied in the first place, however you would have 4 class levels instead of just 4 empty LA, which means practised manifester would actually grant you increased ML from those levels.

Yeah, but isn't the time that the uncarnate gets to spend incorporeal pretty limited? It's definitely not all the time, except maybe when you hit the capstone? I remember looking into this a long time ago and being pretty underwhelmed by that prestige class.

[Crake]

Yeah, but isn't the time that the uncarnate gets to spend incorporeal pretty limited? It's definitely not all the time, except maybe when you hit the capstone? I remember looking into this a long time ago and being pretty underwhelmed by that prestige class.

Iirc it's a minute/level/day, but the capstone is permanent incorporeality, with instead a minute/level/day corporeal. You get most of the unbodied goodies, including at will telekinetic force while incorporeal and assume likeness to make yourself look like whatever you want, and the benefit of being whatever discipline you want rather than being limited to telepath, the only thing you don't get is hide mind, though you do get the ability to make a bunch of your gear incorporeal with you, which unbodied don't get.

[Pippin]

Additional question.

An Unbodied Telepath 4 (ECL = 4+4+4 = 12) dies and is brought back to life, with one fewer level. Can he choose to lose 1 (racial) HD rather than 1 class level? Resurrection and the like never specify that the lost level has to be a class level, after all.

[Crake]

Additional question.

An Unbodied Telepath 4 (ECL = 4+4+4 = 12) dies and is brought back to life, with one fewer level. Can he choose to lose 1 (racial) HD rather than 1 class level? Resurrection and the like never specify that the lost level has to be a class level, after all.

I believe you specifically lose your last level taken, not a level of your choice, so since your last level taken was a level of telepath, that's what you'd lose.

[Pippin]

I believe you specifically lose your last level taken, not a level of your choice, so since your last level taken was a level of telepath, that's what you'd lose.
Oh okay. But where did you find this piece of information? Raise Dead is not nearly as precise:

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature.

This old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?149584-ELiminating-Racial-Hit-Dice) seems to think it's ok by RAW. Also maybe this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/107844/can-negative-levels-get-rid-of-racial-hd).

[Crake]

Oh okay. But where did you find this piece of information? Raise Dead is not nearly as precise:


This old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?149584-ELiminating-Racial-Hit-Dice) seems to think it's ok by RAW. Also maybe this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/107844/can-negative-levels-get-rid-of-racial-hd).

Given that levels are gained in order, and that order does matter for gaining feats and pre-requisites, and that when you lose a level by energy draining (which is what raise dead references, it says you lose a level as if by energy draining), it simply says that 'your level is reduced by 1', the only outcome that makes sense is that you lose your last level, since your level being reduced by 1 will shear off that level.