Belkar 'progression' towards CN.

[Moechi_Vill]

Kilonazis guys... kilonazis.

I'll leave it to your imagination how being less then a kilo-nazi is not progressing towards CN, just diminishing the E.

[Charles Phipps]

He's progressing there.

It's just he's progressing from Sauron's Lovechild/Cruella Deville on down.

Which is sort of like being travelling eight miles west from New York...

To Australia.

Yes, he's started the journey and made progress but he's still on foot.

[Moechi_Vill]

:D nice illustrative

But uh... at some point he's actually going to have to do some 'good' acts as well as cut down on evil - something more tangible then missing Varsuuvius. Chaotic neutral isn't just chaos, well it can be, but it's more commonly a mix of chaos over the board.

On second thought I'll have to disagree with you... his past was around 3500 nazis... he's regressed on evil down to about 700 nazis. That's a HUGE leap.... err slide - to one fifth of his former evil. Its just the last seven hundred are going to be much more difficult than the former two thousand eight hundred.
Belkar has come far, but there's a multitude left and he's not going to find the hangar (0 KN) I think.

I don't really buy it that he's just one fifth of the evil when he met Roy though, but I guess its for comedic effect and I shouldn't analyze too much. I haven't even read their introduction story which comes with the book.

[....]

Belkar kills thing.

Belka likes killing things.

Belkar is evil and will stay evil. He has had less character development than Durkon. He's a bad guy.

[Elliot Kane]

Belkar's not cutting down on Evil of his own free will, he's being forced to cut down on Evil. There's no way that can count towards his alignment.

[Moechi_Vill]

exactly... that's true. I hope to see more violence before he meets his untimely end.

I think that in time Belkar may become a slightly less evil/better person from what he's going through though. It probably took him a while to reach that kind of evil so making him cut back forcibly could have real changes within his heart. Sorta like the way your parents force their moral compasses on you in childhood.

[factotum]

He is still outputting around 500 nazis of evil. That is not how intrinsically evil he is--it's how much evil he's DOING (the deva says the graph represents a projection of what Belkar would have done, not what he was). Unless he stops actively being evil and starts doing some good, he isn't in any danger whatsoever of shifting toward neutral.

[Revlid]

So, even with the Mark of Justice in full effect, Belkar is still doing as much evil as 500 unrestricted Nazis?

Chaotic Neutral, I think not.

[Roderick_BR]

It reminds me of a friend that played a LE fighter once. At some point, he said "I'm doing too many good deeds. I need to be evil to keep my evil alignment."
Since he couldn't murder innocents in cold blood (both for his lawful alignment, and for having the others party members around), he started to torture prisoners :smallbiggrin:

[Wolfman42666]

He has had less character development than Durkon. He's a bad guy.

No, no. He's an evil guy.

To say a comic character is a bad guy, implies that they are a villain Belkar is not he's a protagonist and will remain that way.

(I know that's not what you were saying but I just so love to nitpick:smalltongue:)

[Cade Shadow]

Notice how he spikes down again right after New Years 1184, right around the time her gets the mark.

[The Extinguisher]

So, even with the Mark of Justice in full effect, Belkar is still doing as much evil as 500 unrestricted Nazis?

Chaotic Neutral, I think not.

500 times the evil of one Nazi.

[Gdrad]

Belkar needs more Wis before he progresses toward CN. So long as his wisdom score remains as low as it is, he will always be CE. Even if he's being coerced into being a lesser, mitigated, and focused on other evil Evil.

[Bayar]

It does not matter if you dont do evil stuff.As long as you think evil, you wont get neutral(i mean think evil on a daily basis...).

[Querzis]

I don't really buy it that he's just one fifth of the evil when he met Roy though, but I guess its for comedic effect and I shouldn't analyze too much. I haven't even read their introduction story which comes with the book.

The graphic wasnt Belkar evil but Belkar evil act. I dont think his alignement or him as a whole as changed at all since the start of the comic but hes barely able to do any evil with Roy around. Hes doing one fifth of the evil he would do if Roy wasnt around, that doesnt make even 1% less evil.

[Gravedjinn]

The graphic wasnt Belkar evil but Belkar evil act. I dont think his alignement or him as a whole as changed at all since the start of the comic but hes barely able to do any evil with Roy around. Hes doing one fifth of the evil he would do if Roy wasnt around, that doesnt make even 1% less evil.

While i understand your arguement here. It is flawed in one of the most basic concepts of alignment and morality. excludeing the short stint here with the MOJ witch we are correct on is not his choice.

Belkar has chosen repeatedly to stay with Roy and the OOTS. Now we know that he does have a decent level of inteligence. his tactics and ability with his verbal repertie are both examples of this.
This choice he has made to stay with and around the company of those with good alignments, repeatedly made this choice mind, WILL have an effect on his alignment standing.

For example had he been embraceing the idea of CE in its totality the dragon loot would have been gone and lil belkster would be liveing large createing mass mayhem with all the cash he would ever need.
Thus he has proven even if only mildly that he is makeing a slow and uncertain progression towards a higher alignment then CE.

With all that said...... I personally beleive that he will not make the acctual shift to CN or LE

[factotum]

This choice he has made to stay with and around the company of those with good alignments, repeatedly made this choice mind, WILL have an effect on his alignment standing.


It depends entirely on his REASONS for staying with them. He stays with them at least partially because he gets to earn XP and loot, and of course kill lots of things, that way--stuff he tends to get arrested for if he's on his own. Furthermore, saying that he would have run off with the dragon hoard suggests that the others would have let him do so. Lastly, if Belkar *were* to try to take on the rest of the Order, he would get his ass kicked in short order considering he's about the same level as they are, and Belkar isn't that stupid!

Of course, the other thing to bear in mind is that, if Belkar is supposedly becoming more Good just from associating with a group of Good adventurers, the Good adventurers must be becoming more evil by associating with Belkar--not something that would be a good thing to imply when facing judgement for your actions in life!

[Eriol]

I just think it's hilarious now that there's LESS than zero ambiguity over Belkar's alignment (before it was certainty with the deniers saying "well not everything Rich says on the board is necessarily canon), here many now come out on the tack "well he's on the road to CN now!"


Get over it. He's evil. He'll stay evil. If he's your favourite character, just go into it knowing that you like evil guys, and not trying to put him in your mind as something he's not.

[Oberon]

Belkar has chosen repeatedly to stay with Roy and the OOTS. Now we know that he does have a decent level of inteligence. his tactics and ability with his verbal repertie are both examples of this.
This choice he has made to stay with and around the company of those with good alignments, repeatedly made this choice mind, WILL have an effect on his alignment standing.


Lately, the choice is due to Roy breaking Belkar out of prison and the Mark of Justice (also he gets XP, loot, kills, and he finds Elan funny). THe choice is to serve the Greater Belkar, in hope that he may kill more in the future.

Hje still DESIRES to commit the same much evil as ever, even if his ability to do so is restricted.

[Moechi_Vill]

It reminds me of a friend that played a LE fighter once. At some point, he said "I'm doing too many good deeds. I need to be evil to keep my evil alignment."
Since he couldn't murder innocents in cold blood (both for his lawful alignment, and for having the others party members around), he started to torture prisoners :smallbiggrin:

awww man! Sounds like good times.
I still think a close-up of the graph would be closer to 600+ Nazis.

Hrmmmf, I met three of them on Starcraft Battlenet once while playing Use Map Settings 'World War II' and I was playing France. I told them my split origins and they called me a sub-human! Ah well, we kicked their asses in-game. :) and while I got distracted towards the end it was mostly thanks to my successful Africa campaign with my Algerian and Syrian forces (and three decent industrialist Allied players who backed me up on the culture over race thing as well).



It does not matter if you dont do evil stuff.As long as you think evil, you wont get neutral(i mean think evil on a daily basis...).

That's very vague. A lot of people have twisted/repressed fantasies, but don't want to live them out. You're talking about 'intent' here right? Or reveling in evil fantasies? The latter sounds unhealthy but I'd hesitate to call it evil even if I classify it as wrong.


---
The GREATER Belkar. :o Huh, thanks. That really does put 'love of self' in perspective. Wonderful illustrative.

[The Extinguisher]

This choice he has made to stay with and around the company of those with good alignments, repeatedly made this choice mind, WILL have an effect on his alignment standing.


I haven't read OotPCs, but I do believe his reasons for joining are in there and are very much evil.

And after the dungeon, well, we can see his reasons for staying. Killing 'giants', spending dragon loot, and so on.

So the choice isn't going to do anything to his alignment.

[Starlong]

Gah! :smalleek:

I'm constantly baffled by the amount of people who build eleborate theories so they can climb onto them for the purpose of having their heads in the clouds indefinitely... :smallconfused:

Belkar is Evil - the fact that he can't commit Evil acts within a town or City doesn't force an Alignment change - in order to progress towards neutral from evil, a performance of various good deeds is required. The only quasi (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) good deed performed was for the greater evil :smallbiggrin:

Even when it seemed he did something good, he justified that it wasn't... aka prey migration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html) :smallyuk:

It's not going to happen... :smallamused:

What I really want to know is this however:

Does anyone think Belkar will possibly be as funny if he stopped being the "vicious little *******" we have come to love and laugh for almost 500 comics?? :smallwink:

Ask yourself this, and see the truth... :smalltongue:

[yoshi927]

But Belkar must be pissed. He could've been one of the greats, but then Roy ruined it.

[Aoden]

Leave :belkar: alone !!!
He is perfect the way he is.
Psychotic is needed in a RPG
and he is the Spice of OotS that makes it savory

[Moechi_Vill]

Yeah. I can't wait for him to kill Roy or Varsuuvius or maybe a minor letdown: the oracle.

Man, that's gonna be sweeeet *drool*

(I'm not 'D&D evil' in-life. I just like stabby in my comicks. :))

In the meantime he will hopefully murder legions of respectful military hobgoblins and undead.

[turkishproverb]

But Belkar must be pissed. He could've been one of the greats, but then Roy ruined it.

Suddenly I want to see Belkar's judgement.

[Halna LeGavilk]

Suddenly I want to see Belkar's judgement.

I can just imagine it:

Demon: Well, you are almost evil enough to qualify to become a fiend, but because of your association with Roy Grennhi-
Belker:*Stab*
Belkar:*Stabstabstabstabstabstab*
Belkar:*Stabstabstabstabstabstabstabstab*
Demon:*Slumps on desk, dead*
Belkar: Am I evil enough now?

[Green Bean]

I can just imagine it:

Demon: Well, you are almost evil enough to qualify to become a fiend, but because of your association with Roy Grennhi-
Belker:*Stab*
Belkar:*Stabstabstabstabstabstab*
Belkar:*Stabstabstabstabstabstabstabstab*
Demon:*Slumps on desk, dead*
Belkar: Am I evil enough now?

Heh. That would be awesome.

Demon: You're going to attack me? I am an embodiment of evil! I could reduce you to ashes in a matter of rounds!
Belkar: Yeah, I'm sure you could. Of course, if you did kill me, where exactly would I go?
Demon: Crud.

[Deathwisher]

But wouldn't killing a Demon actually move him further toward neutral? Admittedly, he'd do it for the wrong reason, but stil...

[Halna LeGavilk]

In this case, I think intent matters more than the act itself.

[Deathwisher]

In this case, I think intent matters more than the act itself.

Still, I'd think Belkar is more likely to argue that the demon should send him back to he world of the living for a couple of minutes or so. Just to give him an opportunity to max out his 'evil account'.
Of course, if the demon refuses .....

[Halna LeGavilk]

Still, I'd think Belkar is more likely to argue that the demon should send him back to he world of the living for a couple of minutes or so. Just to give him an opportunity to max out his 'evil account'.
Of course, if the demon refuses .....

I don't know... Belkar is Chaotic Evil, ya know. He might just start killing people, er, demons.

[Khanderas]

More then one has voiced the opinion that Belkar would slide to Good Neutral for killing Evil.
It would, if this was a videogame.

But if that was true in DnD, all the devils and demons would all be neutral after all the wars they do vs eachother. To be changed in 4E I hear but that is beside the point.

Belkar kills things, not for a higher cause, but for his amusement and loot. As long as that is true, it matters not what he kills. Evil he is and Evil he stays.
The difference is the taint on his "commanding officer" insofar what he is killing.

[toysailor]

I feel that strip 489 isn't so much evidence of Belkar's "progression to CN" but rather a validation of Roy's LG alignment.

[blademaster42]

Alright people, let's set this straight right now. Belkar. Is. EVIL. And Hee is going to stay that way, because he enjoys his evil. He embraces it. He puts it before himself. Well, okay, scratch that last one. But, he is evil. And that ain't changin' folks.