Looking for advice on playing a positive channel cleric

[Sutehp]

So, let me start off with the basic information:

Although I'm a longtime gamer with experience in d6 Star Wars and the Classic World of Darkness, I'm new to Pathfinder and the d20 system and just got into Pathfinder a couple of months ago. I'm still learning my way around the game and I'm currently playing in Society play, so the groups I'm playing with are going to be different every session. I just rolled a cleric of Desna named Tristan Reese (an alias for his Varisian name of Tristano Rhishati), with the Travel and Liberation domains. Tristan is a support cleric, which means that yes, I want to be able to heal the party but I also want to dish out melee damage on the necessary occasion. Tristan is Level 2 presently, but I have quite a bit of Level 4 pregen XP and gold saved up, so when Tristan hits level 4 in a few weeks, he going to be instantly boosted to Level 9 and I have to plan out his build for that event. Basically, I want to keep positive channeling as a viable option past Level 5. Most cleric guides I've found online say that channeling becomes less useful after level 5, but my local PFS Venture-Captain told me himself that channeling can very much stay viable at the higher levels. I'm posting here to find out from more experienced players than I if they think this as well.


Here are Tristan's present stats:

Level 2 Male Varisian Human Chaotic Good Cleric of Desna:

Str 13, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 11, Wisdom 15, Cha 13

HP: 19, BAB: +1, Init: +4, AC:18 (Flatfooted: 18, Touch: 10), Saves: Fort: +6, Ref: +1, Will: +5)

ACP: -3, Move: Walk 30ft, CMB: +2, CMD: 12

Traits: Dangerously Curious, Deft Dodger

Feats: Improved Initiative, Selective Channeling

Skills: Bluff: 1, Diplomacy: 1, Disguise: 1, Heal 6, (1 Rank), Intimidate 1, Knowledge (Planes) 4 (1 Rank), Knowledge (Religion) 4 (1 Rank), Perception 4, (2 Ranks), Perform (Untrained) 1, Sense Motive 6 (1 Rank), Spellcraft 4, (1 Rank), Survival 2, Use Magic Device 6 (1 Rank)

Spells Prepared:

Level 0/Orisons: Create Water (it's alot more useful than you'd think), Detect Magic, Guidance, Resistance

Level 1: Bless (x2), 1 Empty Spell Slot (See Tark's Big Holy Book on Clerical Optimization Part 1 - Intro and Links, pp 2-4), Liberation (Travel Domain spell)

Items: +1 Breastplate, Regular Morningstar (I don't much care for starknives's crappy damage, but maybe I'm missing something), Darkwood Buckler, 1 Alchemist's Fire, 1 Acid, 1 Oil Flask, Sling with 10 sling bullets, 1 Wand of CLW with 50 charges (of course)


As I'm trying to take Tristan in a channeling direction, I spotted a very nice feat for Desna clerics and I'm considering this a must-have:

Trailblazing Channel

Your positive energy makes trailblazers of those you heal.

Prerequisites: Channel energy 3d6, worshiper of Desna.

Benefit: Once per day when you channel positive energy, you can cause healed creatures to be unimpeded by difficult terrain for a number of minutes equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1 minute).


So my question to you guys is this: As a support cleric of Desna who wants to make/keep channeling as a viable option at higher levels, what feats/skills/abilities do I need to take from here on out? (If you have recommendations about future gear I should get, feel free to include that also.)

(ADDENDUM: I've also posted this thread in Reddit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/ayhyrc/looking_for_advice_on_playing_a_positive_channel/ so feel free to post there as well.)

[Jack_Simth]

Look through This list (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/channeling-feats) and see what strikes your fancy. Channeled Shield Wall (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/channeled-shield-wall/) helps a little with AC, for both yourself and your allies.
Channel Surge (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/channel-surge) increases the HP healing.
Fateful Channel (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fateful-channel) gives the party a reroll for the fight.
Liberation Channel (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/liberation-channel) grants the party Freedom of Movement for a short time.
Steelskin Channel (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/steelskin-channel) grants the party a little DR... briefly, once a day.

Just look through them, see what seems good.

[grarrrg]

Look through This list (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/channeling-feats) and see what strikes your fancy.
...
Just look through them, see what seems good.
No good.
Most of those feats require worship of a specific deity, and the SRD has to "file off the serial numbers" so to speak, and can't use deity names.
And since this is for PFS no fudging allowed.

The archieveofnethys has proper names listed though, so I'd check there for channeling feats.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Channeling is keyed off Charisma, so you might want to raise it higher than 13. I'm not sure how you got those items at level 2, but I'm sure there's a reason.

That being said, if you're not married to Desna, (which, in all fairness, is probably the best deity in the game in terms of domains), being a cleric of Serenrae grants access to both the Sun and Glory domains which are tailored to channel use. Although they are primarily focused on offensive uses of positive energy against undead.

[Sutehp]

Channeling is keyed off Charisma, so you might want to raise it higher than 13. I'm not sure how you got those items at level 2, but I'm sure there's a reason.

That being said, if you're not married to Desna, (which, in all fairness, is probably the best deity in the game in terms of domains), being a cleric of Serenrae grants access to both the Sun and Glory domains which are tailored to channel use. Although they are primarily focused on offensive uses of positive energy against undead.

Yeah, I'm planning to raise my Charisma and Wisdom to 14 (and over, eventually) once I get the chance. That will no doubt help with channeling in the future.

As I'm already level 2, rewriting/reorganizing my cleric's deity is going to cost me a huge amount pf Prestige Points, assuming that I can even change my deity at all under Society rules. In any case, that's moot as I have no desire to lose my Travel and Liberation domains. Moreover, I really like my character's backstory as a cleric of Desna.

And Raven, since you mentioned my items and were curious about how I got them at level 2, I'll try to satisfy your curiosity. :-) I already got a goodly bit of gold from adventuring from Level 1 to Level 2 and spent most of that on the +1 Breastplate as soon as I could afford it. The rest are just mundane items that I picked up either from character creation (with 150 gp) or as soon as I could afford them from the gold rewards from leveling from 1 to 2 (which is how I got the +1 Breastplate, which I was specifically saving up for). I think what threw you off was the Wand of Cure Light Wounds, which under Society rules you can purchase for only 2 Prestige Points (instead of the gold cost), which every Society player gets after the first adventure. Pretty much every Society player purchases their Wand of CLW with their first 2 PP and then hands it off to whoever is healing during the next adventure and everyone makes sure to track whose charges get used so the costs of healing gets tracked to the players' own wands. I hope that answers your question, Raven. :-)

I'll take another look through the Archive of Nethys as garrrg suggested though that doesn't really answer my question of how to plan my build. I'm hoping for more specific explanations of which feats I should take, rather than "go to this website and see what has the word 'channel' in it." A website won't tell me what's good for my particular circumstances. Hence my post here for advice from real people. :-)

Keep those suggestions coming!

[Psyren]

I'll take another look through the Archive of Nethys as garrrg suggested though that doesn't really answer my question of how to plan my build. I'm hoping for more specific explanations of which feats I should take, rather than "go to this website and see what has the word 'channel' in it." A website won't tell me what's good for my particular circumstances. Hence my post here for advice from real people. :-)

Keep those suggestions coming!

Part of the issue is that PF just has so many feats that the "teach a man to fish" philosophy has merit.

Have you checked out a cleric handbook, e.g. this one (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6-_4HvPvV-Tt7I67Gi_oPhgHmeDVA5SBl-WrJSgf5s/edit?hl=en#) or this one (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1qCtTL94PtU1fjtELj9Ga7dYWhZpM0KOPd9EBzUuMG l4)?

[Sutehp]

Part of the issue is that PF just has so many feats that the "teach a man to fish" philosophy has merit.

Have you checked out a cleric handbook, e.g. this one (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6-_4HvPvV-Tt7I67Gi_oPhgHmeDVA5SBl-WrJSgf5s/edit?hl=en#) or this one (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1qCtTL94PtU1fjtELj9Ga7dYWhZpM0KOPd9EBzUuMG l4)?

Tark's and Beckett's Guides, yeah, I got them both, but neither one really has what I asked for in this thread as they both say specifically that channeling is NOT a worthwhile investment, especially after level 5. This is another reason I posted here: to find additional cleric advice that does say how channeling is worthwhile for Society play since one of my PFS colleagues said that it was. I'm hoping to find like-minded individuals here who can give me advice. This is a popular gaming forum, after all (and I'm a big fan of OOTS as well). :smallsmile:

[Kurald Galain]

Tark's and Beckett's Guides, yeah, I got them both, but neither one really has what I asked for in this thread as they both say specifically that channeling is NOT a worthwhile investment, especially after level 5. This is another reason I posted here: to find additional cleric advice that does say how channeling is worthwhile for Society play since one of my PFS colleagues said that it was. I'm hoping to find like-minded individuals here who can give me advice. This is a popular gaming forum, after all (and I'm a big fan of OOTS as well). :smallsmile:
Well here's the thing. Both of those guides are massively outdated, and written from the perspective of a 3.5 player way back when most players were new to PF and more familiar with 3.5. So both guides build on the old 3.5 truism that in-combat healing is a total waste of time, and they miss the fact that in PF it's actually pretty good.

The difference should be obvious. In 3.5, you spend a standard action to heal one ally, whereas in PF you spend one action to heal the entire party (and buff them for free at the same time). One is worthwhile, the other is not :smallamused: I've seen effective channelers in play as high as level 13, so this is really not something you need worry about.

The build is pretty straightforward. The feats you want are Selective Channel and Quick Channel (and possibly Extra Channel), and when you can afford it a Ring of Protected Life and a Phylactery for +2d6 channel. Channel Blessing is decent for whichever of your allies isn't injured. Don't bother with the channel-to-harm-undead effect unless you've got a build specifically tailored to that. This combines well with a reach-and-trip build, so you can spend your standard actions on channels or spells, and still get to attack outside your turn.

And yes, pick a deity that has a nice feat going for it. Ignoring difficult terrain is rather lacklustre, but Milani's Beacon of Hope is an excellent choice, as is Pharasma's Fateful Channel, and Irori has an interesting variant channel that counters debuffs. HTH!

[Kurald Galain]

What you're missing about the starknife is that a feat lets you use charisma for attack and damage with starknives, which is great on an oracle or paladin but not so much on a cleric.

If you want a trait to boost your saving throws, Glory of Old or Balanced Determination are a better deal than Deft Dodger. Clerics don't particularly need UMD either, so consider a trait like Exalted of the Society instead, or Living Bulwark, or Seeker.

Don't miss out on the orison Stabilize, which is very literally a life saver (it's the only ranged healing spell until you get to pretty high levels).

And it would help if you choose to either be a melee cleric (in which case, more str and less wis) or a caster cleric (so more wis and less str). You probably want at least 14 cha, either way.

(edit) Oh, and in PFS you are allowed to switch deities for free. Of course, if this requires you to swap out feats and such then you do need to pay for retraining those.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Part of the issue is that PF just has so many feats that the "teach a man to fish" philosophy has merit.


This. Other than guides (which are typically outdated, and in some cases, incorrect/misleading about some abilities), the pages linked above have most (if not all) the relevant feats that require/augment channel energy. And without an idea of what specifically you want your channel energy to do beyond "viable", there is not much we can do except give you guidance as to my to start looking. If you find a nifty feat you can always look it up directly on the Archives of Nethys to see if it's PFS legal.



Have you checked out a cleric handbook, e.g. this one (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6-_4HvPvV-Tt7I67Gi_oPhgHmeDVA5SBl-WrJSgf5s/edit?hl=en#) or this one (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1qCtTL94PtU1fjtELj9Ga7dYWhZpM0KOPd9EBzUuMG l4)?

There might be some great advice in that second suggestion, but it's buried beneath walls of text and muddled by a color system that is antithetical to most people's schema. Like, why is BLUE used to denote "bad" options?


Yeah, I'm planning to raise my Charisma and Wisdom to 14 (and over, eventually) once I get the chance. That will no doubt help with channeling in the future.
A website won't tell me what's good for my particular circumstances. Hence my post here for advice from real people. :-)


The thing is that you should probably define "viable". As that's what you requested in your first post. As is, Channel Energy is already viable at every level without any sort of feats/skills/items IMO. It's an AOE heal that can be used during or after battle to fill up hit points without using consumable items like wands or potions. There are a few things you can do to improve channel energy and make it better than the base version. But as long as you have selective channel (which you do), it's already a viable ability at any level.

If by viable you mean one of the following:

1) Able to dual channel both positive or negative energy
Possible with the Versatile Channeler feat. Unfortunately you need to be neutral and worship a neutral deity, or no deity at all.
2) Be good at killing
Depends on what you're killing. If it's undead, then the best your specific character can do is grab the Improved Channel feat and perhaps extra channel, or even Channeling Smite. And killing living things is out of the
question for this character since he is good aligned.
3) Be good at healing.
Again, there are few feats that improve the efficacy of channel energy. Channel Surge is one. And the feats/items that Kurald mentioned are also beneficial for this route. There might be others. Improving the healing potential of Channel Energy class feature is can also be done done via cleric archetypes like Merciful Healer or Blossoming Light.

What I'm trying to say is, without a specific end goal in mind that you would like for your character it is difficult for this community to assist you. And a vague request like "viable" is not much to go on, considering my points above.



So my advice for playing a support cleric is thus:

Choose spells that control the battlefield. Something like command (at low levels), or even stone shape when your reach level 5. And buffs. Buffs make up a lot of the cleric's list. Y'know what also makes up a lot of the cleric's spell list? Spells that protect against or remove harmful effects. Since it's PFS, you can't have any item creation feats as far as I know. So you're going to want to purchase either scrolls or wands of situational spells like remove disease, remove fear, death ward etc because you won't always know what you'll need and can't afford to dedicate all of your spell slots to mitigate effects that may or may not occur. This is mostly for combat, as you can't fill your empty spell slots in the middle of an encounter. Also, remember that it's better to prevent harm than to heal it up after.

As for feats, you already have the most important two. I would recommend Scribe Scroll but that's off the table for PFS. That Trailblazing Channel feat is thematic and not bad as a means of buffing. Not a good one, but not terrible. The party fighter might appreciate being to charge over difficult terrain. Extend Spell is going to be pretty good to make your buffs last more than one battle. Spell Focus(conjuration) and Augment Summoning are a great means to boost your combat effectiveness

As for items, pick up metamagic rods. A Rod of Reach can be nifty when you can't get into range. Also, (for channeling purposes), a Phylactery of Positive Channeling helps out but it also conflicts with your headband slot for Wisdom and Charisma stat boosting items. Prayer Beads are also super useful, especially the Bead of Karma. Also, you can't go wrong with a candle of invocation (as long as it's tied to your alignment), but I'm guessing those aren't allowed in PFS (at least not at their full functionality) for obvious reasons...


I would also recommend looking in to the variant channel rules. But that's something that was supposed to be done as a level 1 cleric.

[Kurald Galain]

And killing living things is out of the question for this character since he is good aligned.
...what... :smallconfused:

[daryen]

...what... :smallconfused:

He meant killing living things with channelling. Obviously, he will kill living things just fine with his morning star.

[Kris Moonhand]

Are you 100% married to being a Cleric? Because in my experience, the best way to be a good channel-focused Cleric is to not be a Cleric at all. An Oracle with the Life Mystery is gonna be much better (and possibly the Spirit Guide archetype and Life Spirit for double channel pool).

Channel feats that work once per day are bad. Actually, general rule of thumb: most things that work once per day are bad.

[Pex]

You'll eventually want Quick Channel to channel energy as a move action. It costs two uses, but it's worth it. You can Channel as a move action and also a standard action in a round for a total of three uses when you need it in an emergency. It rivals Mass Heal Spell adjusted for the character level you use it. Naturally take Extra Channel feat to increase your uses. Also consider casting Eagle's Splendor on yourself for two more uses.

[Firebug]

If you are going to be channeling in combat, I strongly recommend Purifying Channel (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Purifying%20Channel). Basically free damage at the cost of a feat.

[TheFamilarRaven]

He meant killing living things with channelling. Obviously, he will kill living things just fine with his morning star.

Correct. Taken out of context, my original sentence is just silly and absolutely incorrect. :smallbiggrin:

[Sutehp]

So as it is, it seems I'm locked into playing a support cleric rather than a channeling cleric, which to be honest, I do not mind AT ALL. If I have to redo all my cleric's stats in order to make combat channeling more viable, then it's not worth it because redoing my cleric's stats are not what I wanted to do in the first place. When I told my friend that I read several (albeit possibly outdated) cleric guides saying that combat channeling becomes less useful from Level 5 on, he disagreed somewhat emphatically but wasn't specific about how this was so. It was then that I decided to ask here for advice on making a combat channeling cleric.

But it seems that the requirements for making a combat channeling cleric are a bridge too far for me if it involves changing deities since I really like Desna for my character concept or changing my domains as I'm very much liking the concept and potential of the Travel and Liberation domains.

And yeah, I can totally see how asking for a "viable channeling cleric build" can be more than a bit vague, but remember, I'm new to Pathfinder and the d20 system in general, so one has to remember that I don't quite know what I'm talking about. But then again, the entire purpose of this forum is to get advice from more experienced players.

Ugh, I know I want to play a support cleric who worships Desna and can assist the party with buffs but can also swing a morningstar when the situation calls for it, but beyond that, I'm lost at sea because I don't know the options of how to develop a support cleric past the first couple of levels. So I guess my question now is: what are the different directions I can develop a support cleric if he worships Desna and has the Travel and Liberation domains? What is the potential of such a cleric? Can positive channeling be a supplement to such a cleric? If so, how? If not, why not?

Here's hoping my new questions make (at least some) sense.

[Kurald Galain]

But it seems that the requirements for making a combat channeling cleric are a bridge too far for me if it involves changing deities
It doesn't require that.

You can still take the feats mentioned (e.g. Selective Channel, Quick Channel, Extra Channel), and items like Ring of Protected Life and the Phylactery. You'll be fine. Just because Desna's channel feat is not impressive doesn't mean it's bad either.

[Sutehp]

It doesn't require that.

You can still take the feats mentioned (e.g. Selective Channel, Quick Channel, Extra Channel), and items like Ring of Protected Life and the Phylactery. You'll be fine. Just because Desna's channel feat is not impressive doesn't mean it's bad either.

Ok, good. It's just that the last time I played as a Lvl 4 pregen Kyra (cleric of Sarenrae), there was one battle where a PC dropped an area of difficult terrain on some bad guys and our fighter (and biggest damage guy in the party, incidentally) was left on the far side and had some trouble getting back to the rest of us. I was thinking how Trailblazing Channel, situational as it might be, would have been really useful right then. So perhaps Trailblazing Channel impressed me more than it would have otherwise.

But yeah, if I'm not going to make channeling the focus of my build, but as a supplement to my current build, then I have no problem adding on just a few feats like Quick Channel, Extra Channel and Trailblazing Channel (thankfully, I already have Selective Channel). As for the items, I'll be making more than enough gold and Prestige/Fame to get them soon enough.

[Geddy2112]

But it seems that the requirements for making a combat channeling cleric are a bridge too far for me if it involves changing deities since I really like Desna for my character concept or changing my domains as I'm very much liking the concept and potential of the Travel and Liberation domains.

Momma didn't raise no chump. Desna encourages wandering through the darkness and night. The night is dark and full of terrors, and you are going to mop the floor with them. Desna's all about taking the night back from the the evil that wanders there, and most of those evils are not interested in settling differences with diplomacy.

As said earlier in the thread, Desna is probably the best deity in the game as she has three of the all star domain choices. It is rather meta to select the deity of adventuring in a game where you typically play as wandering adventurers. What martial character does not want a speed boost, ability to ignore difficult terrain, and freedom of movement at level 1?! Luck is also a bonkers good domain but liberation and travel have plenty of self and party buffing love to go around.

If you wanna get thematic, you can do cha to damage on a starknife by taking the divine fighting technique. This would require reworking your stats, likely dumping strength as a result. You probably don't need 16 con and want this in your casting stat, or in charisma if you do want to divine fighting tech. More charisma also makes your channeling better, as well as being more suave. A morningstar is a good backup weapon for any cleric, as it has a decent dice and does bashing&piercing to overcome most DR>

As others have said, channeling to damage undead does lose steam quickly unless you specifically build to do so. Negative energy channeling keeps more juice for damage. A lot of this is due to the number and type of undead you see at higher levels-most have insane will saves and boss channel resistance, and a lot of living enemies appear on the scene. A lot of these living enemies have lower will saves and no resistance to negative energy. Being channel based does keep your spells open for buffing, blasting, and other stuff instead of dumping them into cure X wounds. Trailblazing channel is still a nice feather in your cap and adds even further utility to your class. Consider improved channel if you want to use it for damage.

I agree you don't really need UMD as a skill as clerics have a large spell list and won't need it for a lot of things. If you have an arcane caster in the party between the two of you then you should be set. If nobody has UMD then maybe(it is one of the best skills after all), but otherwise clerics are fairly hamstrung for skill points. Failing reflex saves is not a big deal, so I would also swap your +1 reflex save trait. You can take traits to improve your channel damage, initiative, perception as a class skill, uses of channel/day, or anything that gives a re roll is pretty nice.

Eventually you want a mithral breastplate so you can increase your speed and lower your encumbrance. Any of the big six items go without saying-you can dump resistance as a spell as it becomes useless when everyone has cloaks of resistance and is kind of meh anyways. Get these cheap useful items (/www.geekindustrialcomplex.com/articles/good-cheap-core-equipment-everyone-should-have) and parse this list of items (https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/2cv8z8/master_list_of_essentialuseful_magic_items/) to cover the majority of your magical swag and needs.

For feats, you can go down the summoning tree of spell focus(conjuration), augment summons, and sacred summons to summon as a standard action. If summoning is not your jam and you want melee, power attack is never bad should you stick with the morningstar, otherwise cha to attack and damage with divine fighting tech. Eldritch heritage can nab you a familiar(you can get a moth or butterfly familiar for theme) although it does require skill focus(knowledge). Familiars get bonkers, moreso when you get improved familiars that can fly and use magical items. Its like having a combat drone. Speaking of items, I would consider getting scribe scroll and scrolling all of those utility spells you might need once a campaign-endure elements, floatsam vessel, lay of the land, remove curse/disease/poison to name a few. At higher levels divine interference is a fantastic feat, great for negating critical hits that could one shot your more fragile party members.

For skills, it looks like you have a good array. Cover at least two of the big four knowledge skills(you can skill focus one for eldritch heritage arcane bloodline), then the rest is up to you. Diplomacy is probably worth a rank and max if your party needs a face. Max spellcraft if you want to get into crafting feats, but plenty of classes get that one so no need to cover it. Heal is worth a decent amount just to help treat disease and poison, and if you can reliably hit a 20 by taking 10 you can treat deadly wounds and boost your healing power to overkill levels.

[El Dorado]

The Shield Other spell pairs well with channel energy. Divide damage between yourself and your buddy, heal both with channel.