Max # of feats possible

[RNightstalker]

What is the most number of feats a level 20 character can have?

Bonus points if it's part of a coherent build...I'm thinking any official WotC source.

[Oberron]

For uber cheese and "slight" bending of the rules and RAW short answer is all of them ever. You might want to be a little bit more specific, and are you trying to do something?

[Divine Susuryu]

Otyugh hole + Embrace the Dark Chaos + Shun The Dark Chaos = 1 feat per 3000gp

[Jack_Simth]

Otyugh hole + Embrace the Dark Chaos + Shun The Dark Chaos = 1 feat per 3000gp
Plus 500 XP (less whatever mitigation you're doing), and a fair amount of time.
Heroics, on the other hand, grants a temporary feat, which then gets replaced in an Instant manner....

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A ring that grants two feats (fanged ring, for Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack [IUS]) costs 10,000 gp. Craft it out of a +1 ringsword poison ring (Dragon Compendium) and that's an additional 6,345 gp. If you do this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse) to repeatedly clone the above ring and use a number of cloned and nested thought bottles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes) to save XP on castings of the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?119456-What-is-a-quot-Chaos-Shuffle-quot), you can have as many feats as you want. Just attach all the ringsword poison rings together, and you can have 2 feats for every ring on the chain. Hell, wear 'em as chainmail, if you want.

[RNightstalker]

For uber cheese and "slight" bending of the rules and RAW short answer is all of them ever. You might want to be a little bit more specific, and are you trying to do something?

Something playable that a sensible DM would allow. I actually am looking at building an NPC that will need to wear a lot of hats, something I could possibly redo as a PC in the future.

[RNightstalker]

Otyugh hole + Embrace the Dark Chaos + Shun The Dark Chaos = 1 feat per 3000gp

Otyugh Hole only has an option of four feats at best if you meet the prerequisites.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Something playable that a sensible DM would allow.Uh oh. White Text

[Jack_Simth]

Otyugh Hole only has an option of four feats at best if you meet the prerequisites.
You get a feat, you shuffle it to something else for 500 xp and two 8th level slots. You now no longer have the original feat.

But something of a "good start" would be an Elf Fighter-20 with two flaws and Vow of Poverty, who uses Dark Chaos Shuffle (which is Chaotic, not Evil) to trade the junk feats for good ones. Counting the racial proficiency feats ("Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."), that's .... 11 from Fighter, 4 from race, 10 from Vow of Poverty, 7 from level up, 2 from Flaws... minus two to get Vow of Poverty in the first place, but you may be able to shuffle that, too. so 32 or 34, depending.

[Hackulator]

For max feats you gotta go human and take sacred vow and vow of poverty to start, that igves you 11 bonus exalted feats. They might not be GOOD feats, but its the path to getting the most. Then be a fighter. Once again, just about getting the most feats. Between those two things that is 30 feats at level 20.

[RNightstalker]

A ring that grants two feats (fanged ring, for Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack [IUS]) costs 10,000 gp. Craft it out of a +1 ringsword poison ring (Dragon Compendium) and that's an additional 6,345 gp. If you do this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse) to repeatedly clone the above ring and use a number of cloned and nested thought bottles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes) to save XP on castings of the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?119456-What-is-a-quot-Chaos-Shuffle-quot), you can have as many feats as you want. Just attach all the ringsword poison rings together, and you can have 2 feats for every ring on the chain. Hell, wear 'em as chainmail, if you want.

How would you explain making a magical ring that qualifies instead as a weapon? Also you might run out of ways to wield said rings if you found a DM that would allow it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You get a feat, you shuffle it to something else for 500 xp and two 8th level slots. You now no longer have the original feat.

But something of a "good start" would be an Elf Fighter-20 with two flaws and Vow of Poverty, who uses Dark Chaos Shuffle (which is Chaotic, not Evil) to trade the junk feats for good ones. Counting the racial proficiency feats ("Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."), that's .... 11 from Fighter, 4 from race, 10 from Vow of Poverty, 7 from level up, 2 from Flaws... minus two to get Vow of Poverty in the first place, but you may be able to shuffle that, too. so 32 or 34, depending.Don't forget that fighters also gain all the armor and shield feats as bonus feats, so you can shuffle them out, too. And you even get to keep the proficiencies!


How would you explain making a magical ring that qualifies instead as a weapon? Also you might run out of ways to wield said rings if you found a DM that would allow it.The same way that you can create a quarterstaff that is also a magical staff, or a shield that's also a weapon. You can enhance items as more than one thing when they ARE more than one thing. And in this case, the ring has a small needle that deals damage when used as a weapon, so it qualifies as both.

As far as wearing multiple rings in this way, take your index fingers and your thumbs of each hand and touch the tips so that each hand makes a circle (like the "OK" sign). Now link them together so one is threaded through the other. Now imagine these are rings that you've linked together via the ringsword enhancement. Stick your finger in one ring, and the other ring, while not on your finger, is also in effect. Now chain another ring onto that one, and another ring onto that one, etc. Imagine the chain of rings stretching along the back of your hand and wrapping around your wrist a few times.

Seems okay to me, especially since rings auto-size and can be much smaller than those made for Medium creatures, so the ones you're NOT wearing directly basically form a very small chain of links instead of a big and bulky one.

[RNightstalker]

You get a feat, you shuffle it to something else for 500 xp and two 8th level slots. You now no longer have the original feat.

But something of a "good start" would be an Elf Fighter-20 with two flaws and Vow of Poverty, who uses Dark Chaos Shuffle (which is Chaotic, not Evil) to trade the junk feats for good ones. Counting the racial proficiency feats ("Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."), that's .... 11 from Fighter, 4 from race, 10 from Vow of Poverty, 7 from level up, 2 from Flaws... minus two to get Vow of Poverty in the first place, but you may be able to shuffle that, too. so 32 or 34, depending.

I like where this is going, though I don't know if a DM would allow the bonus martial feats for an elf that's also a fighter.

I wonder if I should make different categories: cheeseless, shuffleless, etc. lol.

[RNightstalker]

Don't forget that fighters also gain all the armor and shield feats as bonus feats, so you can shuffle them out, too. And you even get to keep the proficiencies!

The same way that you can create a quarterstaff that is also a magical staff, or a shield that's also a weapon. You can enhance items as more than one thing when they ARE more than one thing. And in this case, the ring has a small needle that deals damage when used as a weapon, so it qualifies as both.

As far as wearing multiple rings in this way, take your index fingers and your thumbs of each hand and touch the tips so that each hand makes a circle (like the "OK" sign). Now link them together so one is threaded through the other. Now imagine these are rings that you've linked together via the ringsword enhancement. Stick your finger in one ring, and the other ring, while not on your finger, is also in effect. Now chain another ring onto that one, and another ring onto that one, etc. Imagine the chain of rings stretching along the back of your hand and wrapping around your wrist a few times.

Seems okay to me, especially since rings auto-size and can be much smaller than those made for Medium creatures, so the ones you're NOT wearing directly basically form a very small chain of links instead of a big and bulky one.

I like your creativity but I don't see a way around the 2 ring limit without the AMIS feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I like your creativity but I don't see a way around the 2 ring limit without the AMIS feat.A ringsword weapon allows you to wear an additional ring on the weapon. If that weapon is also a ring, you can wear a ring on the ring. If that, too, is another ringsword weapon, that grants you yet another ring to wear. Etc. Etc. Etc. There is no actual limit to the number of ringsword poison rings you can wear in this way, aside from the number you have access to. If that, too, is arbitrarily unlimited...

And if you absolutely have to, use one of the two feats each ring gives you for the Extra Ring feat, and wear a second fanged ring for another two feats. It's only half as efficient, but you can still wear nigh infinite rings this way to gain nigh infinite (x2) feats (half of which are Extra Ring, of course).

[Oberron]

Something playable that a sensible DM would allow. I actually am looking at building an NPC that will need to wear a lot of hats, something I could possibly redo as a PC in the future.

Sensible DM varies for a lot of people. I am assuming you are the DM making an NPC in this case? What do you mean wear a lot of hats? If you mean able to fill a lot of roles when needed I think Factotum works. What are you trying to do specifically?

[Hackulator]

A ringsword weapon allows you to wear an additional ring on the weapon. If that weapon is also a ring, you can wear a ring on the ring. If that, too, is another ringsword weapon, that grants you yet another ring to wear. Etc. Etc. Etc. There is no actual limit to the number of ringsword poison rings you can wear in this way, aside from the number you have access to. If that, too, is arbitrarily unlimited...

And if you absolutely have to, use one of the two feats each ring gives you for the Extra Ring feat, and wear a second fanged ring for another two feats. It's only half as efficient, but you can still wear nigh infinite rings this way to gain nigh infinite (x2) feats (half of which are Extra Ring, of course).

Ringsword is not a weapon quality, it is a specific Magic Weapon that is a +3 longsword. Unless it shows up somewhere other than Arms and Equipment making it anything other than a +3 longsword is homebrew.

Extra Rings lets you wear 4 rings. Taking it more than once does not change the amount of rings it lets you wear. It does not say "lets you wear an additional ring".

[smasher0404]

You get a feat, you shuffle it to something else for 500 xp and two 8th level slots. You now no longer have the original feat.

But something of a "good start" would be an Elf Fighter-20 with two flaws and Vow of Poverty, who uses Dark Chaos Shuffle (which is Chaotic, not Evil) to trade the junk feats for good ones. Counting the racial proficiency feats ("Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."), that's .... 11 from Fighter, 4 from race, 10 from Vow of Poverty, 7 from level up, 2 from Flaws... minus two to get Vow of Poverty in the first place, but you may be able to shuffle that, too. so 32 or 34, depending.


If we are going that route, we can swap out a bunch of the fighter levels to get more bonus feats. (Each line break represents an additional feat gained over straight classing fighter)

2 levels in the Rogue variant that gets bonus feats as a fighter instead of sneak attack.

2 levels of Psychic Warrior

2 levels of Monk (2 feats gained)

3 levels of Ranger (1.5 feats gained)

A level of Marshal (0.5 feats gained)

6 levels of Artificer (3 feats gained)

A level of Cleric (2 feats gained via trading a domain for a devotion feat plus War Domain with a deity that has an exotic favored weapon)

And a single level of Martial Wizard to cover the remaining dead level

You gain 23 bonus feats replacing 18 levels of the straight classed fighter (12 more than being straight classed). That brings your total up to 44 or 46.

[DeTess]

Something playable that a sensible DM would allow. I actually am looking at building an NPC that will need to wear a lot of hats, something I could possibly redo as a PC in the future.
If your goal is to have an NPC do a lot of different things, have you looked at the Chameleon Prestige Class? I gets variable class features it cans witch out each day, as well as a feat it can switch around.

[Malphegor]

Otyugh hole + Embrace the Dark Chaos + Shun The Dark Chaos = 1 feat per 3000gp

This seems... like a really awful way to get infinite powaaah in character.

So, you go into a dark and wet hole, the kind of place that drives you mad, hardening your mental defences in a layer of madness.

Then, you embrace the dark chaos, becoming a bit fiendish and regaining the clarity of mind but further descending into evil. You've traded that part of your soul for power...

then you shun that evil, and gain some contemplative revaluation about how to go about your business, healed and feeling better than ever before...

And then you return to the place of your former trauma, the hole that once filled your nightmares. To repeat the process.

I think the kind of character that would go about and do this is made of some seriously stern stuff, because holy moley.

[Anthrowhale]

Master Thrower 5 (which is also a pretty good martial class), grants an improved critical feat for every Weapon Focus feat making it a potential feat doubler.

[Jack_Simth]

This seems... like a really awful way to get infinite powaaah in character.

So, you go into a dark and wet hole, the kind of place that drives you mad, hardening your mental defences in a layer of madness.

Then, you embrace the dark chaos, becoming a bit fiendish and regaining the clarity of mind but further descending into evil. You've traded that part of your soul for power...

then you shun that evil, and gain some contemplative revaluation about how to go about your business, healed and feeling better than ever before...

And then you return to the place of your former trauma, the hole that once filled your nightmares. To repeat the process.

I think the kind of character that would go about and do this is made of some seriously stern stuff, because holy moley.

On the flip side, though:
If the method's actually permitted, it's theoretically a way for a commoner to get 9th level spells. And the WBL hit to get there isn't... too bad. Let's see... two 8th's, 500 xp, and the 3k for the hole = 7,900 gp per feat (hiring the Embrace / Shun combo is 2 (castings) * 8 (Spell level) * 15 (caster level) * 10 (base cost of spellcasting services) + 2 (castings) * 250 (xp cost) * 5 (GP/XP conversion for hired spellcasting) = 4,900 gp, and the magical location's effect has a listed treasure value of 3k).

14 feats to get 9th level spellcasting (+1 feat for each additional spell known / spell slot)
Magical Training (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) (Grants spontaneous casting... of cantrips, at CL 1)
Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon) (Lets you use two slots to cast a spell one level higher)
Sanctum Spell (Complete Arcane) (Treat a spell as one level higher when cast in your sanctum)
Any of the Sorcerer bloodline feats (Dragon Compendium) (Grants spells known, 1st-9th, when you become able to cast spells of that level)
Extra Slot (Complete Arcane) * 9 (up to *18, if you don't have a high enough casting modifier to get bonus 9th level slots) (gives you a fixed spell slot)
Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Divine / Complete Arcane) (not strictly needed, but you don't want CL 1 forever, especially because Extra Spell requires caster level 3)

(there's refinements, but that'll do).

So you get a few Cantrip slots from Magical Training, and because of Sanctum Spell, you can cast 1st level spells (at least inside your sanctum). The bloodline feat kicks in, and you now have a spell known of 1st level. If you expend two 0th level spell slots, you can cast it... and if you do it as a Sanctum spell inside your sanctum, you can cast a 2nd level spell (netting you a 2nd level spell known from the bloodline). Extra Slot can thus grant you a 1st level spell slot... and if you've got the ability score to get a bonus slot of that level, this now anchors things (you can still cast a 2nd level spell outside your sanctum by spending two 1st level slots). Casting a sanctum spell of your 2nd level spell inside your sanctum lets you cast 3rd level spells... which grants you a 3rd level spell known from your bloodline. And so on.

14 * 110,600 gp to get Sorcerer casting, at caster level 5 (assuming you've got 5 or more hit dice), one base spell slot per day 1st-9th, one spell known 1st-9th, Mind you, you can get a discount by taking some of these feats "normally", but that's the base.

[The Kool]

Any DM still on their rocker will not let you DCFS away racial feats or weapon proficiencies that you didn't specifically take as feats. That is, if you have a DM that will let you DCFS at all. My preferred ruling on the DCFS is that if you try it, you wind up with the feat you started with, and most of the DMs I've spoken to about it agree. Yeah, it's not RAW, but DCFS is such a blatant powergaming loophole that if your DM allows it, you need to think very carefully about how you want to use the nigh-infinite power you'll be able to get past him with this and other methods.

[Zaq]

I’m sure you can do better than this because this build wasn’t actually intended to be Featy McFeatface, but my Speeloxhuu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22441645&postcount=106) build ended up with 20 feats, 19 of which were selectable rather than hard-coded. Without flaws, even.

Considering that the primary goal was something other than just getting a million feats, I think that’s noteworthy. And I dare say the build was, well, playable? Intentionally completely bonkers and over-the-top, but still reasonably functional and not merely a display piece. Mostly.

Really, if you’re not doing infinite loops and you don’t like Dark Chaos Shuffle tricks, it’s just a matter of stitching together as many frontloaded feat-granting dips as possible. Won’t end up with anything powerful after that much hodgepodge, but that’s pretty much where you’re going.

[The Kool]

It's worth noting that a very solid baseline, not counting proficiencies, is Human Fighter 20. This will leave you with 19 feats, 21 if you pick up two flaws, all of which are selectable. Consider that the number to beat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ringsword is not a weapon quality, it is a specific Magic Weapon that is a +3 longsword. Unless it shows up somewhere other than Arms and Equipment making it anything other than a +3 longsword is homebrew.It most certainly is a weapon quality. It's a quality added to a +3 weapon. Remove the +3 and the cost for a masterwork sword, and it's easy to reverse engineer.

The ringsword isn't even unique. It has a crafting price. If there's a way to craft it, there's a way to craft it as something else. At the very least, you can remove the stupid additional +2 enhancement bonus (which no weapon should ever have, due to greater magic weapon and the tooth of Leraje, if nothing else) and replace it with morphing and sizing, and voila, you have a +1 ringsword/morphing/sizing poison ring (which would be a useful combo even without the poison ring aspect).

Either way, the rules in the MIC allow you to craft items to transfer magic item qualities from one item to another. Just add ringsword to a +1 poison ring, and you're fine.


Extra Rings lets you wear 4 rings. Taking it more than once does not change the amount of rings it lets you wear. It does not say "lets you wear an additional ring".Fair enough. Still, the ringsword quality explicitly allows you to gain the benefits of an additional ring, with no upper limit. You don't actually need Extra Rings to do so.

[Zaq]

Human with 20 HD and 2 flaws gets 10.

Monk 2 for 3 more, 13.
Fighter 2 for 2 more, 15.
Ranger 2 for 2 more, 17.
Wizard 1 for 1 more, 18. (Use martial wizard to have it be a fighter feat.)
Martial rogue 2 for 2 more, 20.
Bear totem barbarian 3 for 3 more, 23.
Psion 1 for 1 more, 24.
PsyWar 2 for 2 more, 26.
Cleric 1 with two feat-granting domains for 2 more, 28.
Soulknife 1 for 2 more, 30.
Archivist 1 for 1 more, 31.
I dunno, thrall of Demogorgon 1 for 1 more, 32.
Gotta be one more dip class that we qualify for, but I’m on mobile and I’m running low on ideas. Elocator? I think we can maybe hit elocator? That’s 1 more, 33, and 20 class levels in the bank.

Add in devotion to an Elder Evil for five more, or find a Good-compatible replacement for thrall of Demogorgon (nothing fancy about ToD; it just was in my brain because I had mentioned Speeloxhuu) and go Vow of Poverty for nine more instead. So somewhere around 38 to 42 without using items, spells, loops, or proficiencies.

You might be able to squeeze in a couple more by picking careful PrCs, by invoking more or different ACFs (cloistered cleric for Knowledge domain swapped to Knowledge Devotion?), and so on, but every class level in that list grants a minimum of one feat. Oh, and just make sure you take Ordered Chaos somewhere after monk and before barbarian.

[Hate9]

In Pathfinder, the max number (without items or mythic ranks) would be 10 (base) + 1 (human) + 1 (antihero) + 10 (fighter - combat feats) + 4 (weapon specialist advanced weapon training) + 3 (other feat-granting advanced weapon training options) + 2 (feat-granting advanced armor training options) + 3 (1st level Monk).
All put together, that's 11 feats of any type, 10 combat feats, 4 combat feats that require you to choose a type of weapon, a weapon mastery feat, an item mastery feat, either weapon finesse or combat stamina, an armor mastery of shield mastery feat, Run, a monk bonus feat, stunning fist, and improved unarmed strike.
In total, 33 feats.

[rrwoods]

Because these kinds of questions come up a lot, and generally there’s a bit of discussion regarding what’s allowed and what’s too theoretical to matter, I propose:

While you can use a character building *resource* from any source (or any allowed source, specified in the question), you can only take *actions* described in the character creation and character leveling sections of the PHB. Casting spells or buying items, for example, is not allowed.

This “feels like”, to me, that it gets to the core of what these kinds of questions are asking. I think we got to basically this point in this particular thread, though not explicitly.

[Biggus]

Something playable that a sensible DM would allow. I actually am looking at building an NPC that will need to wear a lot of hats, something I could possibly redo as a PC in the future.

If you're looking to make an actual character who can play lots of different roles rather than simply maximising feats as an exercise in optimisation, maybe something like Human Monk 2 Ranger 3 Wizard 5 Fighter 8 Eldritch Knight 2 for 22 feats? You can be competent in armed, unarmed and ranged combat, as a tracker/ survivalist, have a caster level of 10 with the Practised Spellcaster feat and the ability to scribe scrolls which gives you a lot of versatility, and still have your 8 general feats left for whatever other hats you want to wear. If you take Ranger at level 1 you can be moderately competent in quite a few skills as well. Certainly not an optimised character, but you do get BAB +16 for your 4 attacks per round (or +17 if using fractional BAB).

Obviously Vow of Poverty gets you lots more feats, but most of them are pretty naff, and the inability to use magic items severely restricts your ability to play many roles.

[Hackulator]

It most certainly is a weapon quality. It's a quality added to a +3 weapon. Remove the +3 and the cost for a masterwork sword, and it's easy to reverse engineer.

You are correct, it is easy to reverse engineer. That does not stop it from being homebrew. It clearly is not a magic weapon special ability, because there is a list of Magic Weapon Special abilities in the book the item comes from and ringsword is not in that list. It is in a separate section for specific magic items. Now a reasonable DM might allow you to homebrew say, a +3 mace with the same quality, but it would still be homebrew, and it's pretty unlikely a reasonable DM would allow you to hombrew a ringsword poison ring so you could get infinity rings.

[AnimeTheCat]

For max feats you gotta go human and take sacred vow and vow of poverty to start, that igves you 11 bonus exalted feats. They might not be GOOD feats, but its the path to getting the most. Then be a fighter. Once again, just about getting the most feats. Between those two things that is 30 feats at level 20.

Human Fighter 20 is a good baseline, true, but you can get more feats, and some auxiliary power/skills, if you dip into other classes. A Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Feat Rogue 2 will be level 6 with 10 feats (6 for class levels, 1 human bonus, 3 for HD 1/3/6) and you get a little flexibility because the two from psychic warrior get to be psionic feats or fighter bonus feats. Throw in a level of cleric and you can get a couple more, like an exotic weapon proficiency and focus in that weapon for worshiping a deity with the war domain and then you can pick up a devotion feat. A good option, in my opinion, is Re-Horakhty. Not a bad deity in dogma or domains, and an interesting addition to the campaign if the DM will allow it. Otherwise, just go with whatever deity suites your fancy.


Obviously Vow of Poverty gets you lots more feats, but most of them are pretty naff, and the inability to use magic items severely restricts your ability to play many roles.

Eh... If this is for an NPC, maybe that's not so bad though?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Anyone discussing feats based on class should remember that all classes gain Light Armor Proficiency (aside from monk, wizard, and sorcerer), including those that don't gain proficiency in light armor. The various armor and shield feats specify which classes gain them as bonus feats, and they're entirely separate from actual armor and shield proficiencies.

Funky RAW is still RAW.

[Crichton]

Anyone discussing feats based on class should remember that all classes gain Light Armor Proficiency (aside from monk, wizard, and sorcerer), including those that don't gain proficiency in light armor. The various armor and shield feats specify which classes gain them as bonus feats, and they're entirely separate from actual armor and shield proficiencies.

Funky RAW is still RAW.



I've heard that said before, and I really want it to be true(for personal reasons for a couple of my characters), but how do these two (seemingly contradictory) statements play out?



All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.


They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.


So you're saying the class doesn't have proficiency from the class features, but they automatically get it as a bonus feat, so they still have proficiency (from the autoselected feat) even though the class description says they don't have it? I can perhaps see that being how the RAW comes down, but how many DMs in actual play allow a class that says they aren't proficient still get the proficiency feat from the PHB/SRD, especially classes outside core that were added after the PHB feat description was published? Doesn't the newer/more recently published source override the PHB in this matter?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I've heard that said before, and I really want it to be true(for personal reasons for a couple of my characters), but how do these two (seemingly contradictory) statements play out?

So you're saying the class doesn't have proficiency from the class features, but they automatically get it as a bonus feat, so they still have proficiency (from the autoselected feat) even though the class description says they don't have it? I can perhaps see that being how the RAW comes down, but how many DMs in actual play allow a class that says they aren't proficient still get the proficiency feat from the PHB/SRD, especially classes outside core that were added after the PHB feat description was published? Doesn't the newer/more recently published source override the PHB in this matter?I know that Emperor Tippy, at least, allows psions to gain Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat, so there's at least one that doesn't laugh it off. RAW, however odd it might be, grants all classes but three LAP as a bonus feat, for good or ill.

Your DMs and games may vary.

[Crichton]

I know that Emperor Tippy, at least, allows psions to gain Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat, so there's at least one that doesn't laugh it off.

To be fair, that's not saying much, as the Tippyverse is the icon of RAW-is-all gaming.


RAW, however odd it might be, grants all classes but three LAP as a bonus feat, for good or ill.

So the feat, because feats are a separate thing from class feature based proficiencies and because they foolishly used totalitarian language in the core PHB ('All characters'), overrides the class feature descriptions that say a class has no proficiency with any armor? I mean, why would they later write that a class has no proficiency with any armor, if the class automatically got LAP from the feat? (I'm just making sure I have my understanding as complete as possible before I attempt this with my DM)


Your DMs and games may vary.

As always. :smallsmile: I'm just trying to see if this is a commonly accepted thing, instead of some marginal outside case, before I try to address it with my DM. Any and all insights are appreciated.

[Thedez]

As far as via character levels go, let's think here.
Martial Rogue 1
Psychic Warrior 2
Fighter 2
Monk w/ Fighting Style 2
Ranger 1
Bear Totem Barbarian 3
Martial Wizard 1
Erudite 1
Soulknife 3
Soulbow 1
Cleric 1
Human Paragon 2
That would be...
20 feats from classes?

[Lans]

Their is a fighter acf that gets exotic shield proficiency instead of tower proof

Cloistered cleric gets 3 domain s iirc

Worshiping elder evil gets you ,5 feats

Selling your soul gets you two feats

Taint is another two

[Thedez]

Their is a fighter acf that gets exotic shield proficiency instead of tower proof

Cloistered cleric gets 3 domain s iirc

Worshiping elder evil gets you ,5 feats

Selling your soul gets you two feats

Taint is another two

By RAW, none of that has alignment requirements, so Sacred Vow + VoP for 12 additional feats.

[Bronk]

It's worth noting that a very solid baseline, not counting proficiencies, is Human Fighter 20. This will leave you with 19 feats, 21 if you pick up two flaws, all of which are selectable. Consider that the number to beat.

How about... An elf cleric 1 (metal and war domains), paladin 1, druid 1, martial rogue 1, fighter 16, who has taken two flaws, Vow of Poverty, and visited the Otyugh hole.

That's:

7 general feats from leveling to 20

4 bonus proficiency feats from being an elf

9 fighter bonus feats from fighter levels

5 bonus proficiency feats from being a fighter

1 fighter bonus feat from the martial rogue level

5 bonus proficiency feats from being a martial rogue, which gains bonus feats as a fighter.

3 bonus proficiency feats from being a cleric

2 granted feats from the metal domain

2 granted feats from the war domain

3 bonus proficiency feats from being a druid

4 bonus proficiency feats from being a paladin

10 bonus exalted feats from Vow of Poverty

2 feats from flaws

1 feat from the otyugh hole

...for 58 feats? Then just find your local friendly high level dweomerkeeper for some XP free castings of the dark chaos shuffle spells if you want most of them to actually be useful.

Edit: An evil character would lose out on the 10 bonus VoP feats, but could partially make up for it by entering the service of an Elder Evil (+5 bonus feats at 20th level) and selling their souls to a devil in a Faustian Pact for one more.

Edit: I just realized I can't have a regular druid and a regular paladin at the same time without declaring an alignment shift, so I'll stick with Lawful Good, lose the druid level (-3 feats), and take a level in ranger instead (+2 feats), for 57 total feats. Then, while I'm at it, I'll lose another two fighter levels (-1 feat) and take one level in wizard (+1 feat) and a level in warblade so I don't need to keep any of the proficiency feats later (who uses tower shields anyway?). Then, I'll add all those other bought feats from RNightstalker's post a few posts down, for an additional +5 feats, to bring the total to 62.

[RNightstalker]

How about... An elf cleric 1 (metal and war domains), paladin 1, druid 1, martial rogue 1, fighter 16, who has taken two flaws, Vow of Poverty, and visited the Otyugh hole.

4 bonus proficiency feats from being an elf

5 bonus proficiency feats from being a fighter

5 bonus proficiency feats from being a martial rogue, which gains bonus feats as a fighter.

3 bonus proficiency feats from being a cleric

2 granted feats from the metal domain

2 granted feats from the war domain

3 bonus proficiency feats from being a druid

4 bonus proficiency feats from being a paladin

...for 58 feats? Then just find your local friendly high level dweomerkeeper for some XP free castings of the dark chaos shuffle spells if you want most of them to actually be useful.

Edit: An evil character would lose out on the 10 bonus VoP feats, but could partially make up for it by entering the service of an Elder Evil (+5 bonus feats at 20th level) and selling their souls to a devil in a Faustian Pact for one more.

Are the bonus proficiency feats from the classes along the same lines of the Elf proficiency feats? As some of them would surely overlap, you'd have to space out the shuffling between the classes which shouldn't be too hard. Do you know of a deity that subscribes to both metal and war domains?


I'm asking those questions just for more understanding, not to play devil's advocate. This could work really well as an NPC, and I believe there was a more playable PC option mentioned earlier.

[Bronk]

Are the bonus proficiency feats from the classes along the same lines of the Elf proficiency feats? As some of them would surely overlap, you'd have to space out the shuffling between the classes which shouldn't be too hard. Do you know of a deity that subscribes to both metal and war domains?


I'm asking those questions just for more understanding, not to play devil's advocate. This could work really well as an NPC, and I believe there was a more playable PC option mentioned earlier.

Yes, they're along the very same lines... you can get feats more than once (especially bonus feats), you just don't get any extra benefits from them. They'd be useless unless switched out, but until then they're still there.

I don't know of such a deity, but if one doesn't exist you'd just need to do that thing where you follow a concept.

It's all technically possible, just super power gamey.

[RNightstalker]

Yes, they're along the very same lines... you can get feats more than once (especially bonus feats), you just don't get any extra benefits from them. They'd be useless unless switched out, but until then they're still there.

I don't know of such a deity, but if one doesn't exist you'd just need to do that thing where you follow a concept.

It's all technically possible, just super power gamey.

Now that I think about it, I'm sure one of those feats can be flipped into Bonus Domain.

[Pleh]

Something playable that a sensible DM would allow. I actually am looking at building an NPC that will need to wear a lot of hats, something I could possibly redo as a PC in the future.

Let's get something straight, though. If you want to wear a lot of different hats to be effective at a lot of different roles and tasks, you don't really want feats.

You want spells.

You want to be a wizard, not a fighter or VoP monk. They get tons of feats that make you half decent at doing one of a small number of things.

Be a wizard to be great at everything. If you want this to be a sidekick NPC, just pick utility spells and don't optimize. Abra kadabra, you have an NPC who wears all the hats you'll ever need.

[Ruethgar]

You get a feat, you shuffle it to something else for 500 xp and two 8th level slots. You now no longer have the original feat.

But something of a "good start" would be an Elf Fighter-20 with two flaws and Vow of Poverty, who uses Dark Chaos Shuffle (which is Chaotic, not Evil) to trade the junk feats for good ones. Counting the racial proficiency feats ("Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."), that's .... 11 from Fighter, 4 from race, 10 from Vow of Poverty, 7 from level up, 2 from Flaws... minus two to get Vow of Poverty in the first place, but you may be able to shuffle that, too. so 32 or 34, depending.

You are forgetting the automatically granted armor proficiency feats which would grant another I think 5 shufflable from Fighter. Light/Medium/Heavy/Shield/Tower. Because your proficiency class feature already grants them, the feats are redundant.

[darkdragoon]

Magical Locations:
2K
Frog God's Phane- worse list but cheaper for those doing the shuffle shenanigans

3K
Otyugh Hole
Highest Spire
Iron Wyrm Vault

5K
Heward's Hall- Skill Focus Perform or bardic music; alt suggestion of Item creation

6K
Court of Thieves -Luck feat

Soulmeld
Astral Vambraces astral construct menu


Zhentarim Fighter nets 1 feat over regular (Skill Focus: Intimidate)

[RNightstalker]

Magical Locations:
2K
Frog God's Phane- worse list but cheaper for those doing the shuffle shenanigans

3K
Otyugh Hole
Highest Spire
Iron Wyrm Vault

5K
Heward's Hall- Skill Focus Perform or bardic music; alt suggestion of Item creation

6K
Court of Thieves -Luck feat

Soulmeld
Astral Vambraces astral construct menu


Zhentarim Fighter nets 1 feat over regular (Skill Focus: Intimidate)

I do like the Locations from Complete Scoundrel, will definitely make a way to incorporate those.

[RNightstalker]

Let's get something straight, though. If you want to wear a lot of different hats to be effective at a lot of different roles and tasks, you don't really want feats.

You want spells.

You want to be a wizard, not a fighter or VoP monk. They get tons of feats that make you half decent at doing one of a small number of things.

Be a wizard to be great at everything. If you want this to be a sidekick NPC, just pick utility spells and don't optimize. Abra kadabra, you have an NPC who wears all the hats you'll ever need.

Already have the wizard box checked...twice.