The Best Up Cast Spells

[Xeko]

We've all been there, you're making a higher level character from scratch for some one-shot or another. Because it's a one-shot, you haven't really planned every step of their journey from level 1 to whatever level it is you're playing at, and as a result, you have no idea what spells to put on your College of Lore Bard 6/Domain of Knowledge Cleric 4. This particular multiclass has access to level 5 spell slots, but wouldn't know any spells beyond level 3 in either of their classes, so obviously, you would want to load the character up with spells that can be Up Cast, that is to say, spells that have increased and/or additional effects when cast using a higher level spell slot.

So, my question for you guys is, what are some of your favorite Up Cast spells? Spells that may or may not be all that impressive at their base level, but excel when cast at higher levels. They don't need to be Bard or Cleric spells, that was just an example. Now, this is kinda meant as a fun discussion thread, more than anything else, buuuuut, I'll definitely be coming back to this conversation later, next time I'm making a multiclassed caster.

Two that come to my mind immediately are Armor of Agathys and Hex. Problem is, both of these spells are Warlock exclusive. It makes sense for Warlocks to get some good Up Cast spells, as all of their spells are automatically cast at the highest spell level available. But, with them being less accessible, it's definitely a big strike against them in the best Up Cast spells contest.

[Frozenstep]

Bestow curse, 5th level and above and it no longer takes concentration.

Command seems powerful. Being able to do it against 3-4 targets at once with it is good stuff.

Invisibility is great utility, especially if you can make 3-4 people invisible at once.

[sophontteks]

Blindness/deafness is mediocre at level. When upcast its a very powerful, and rare, non-concentration multi-target CC.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Erupting Earth~better then fireball once upcast
Armor of Agathys~Abjurer Wizard with this is brutal
Bigby's Hand~Damage then do more damage.
Fog cloud~Huge areas, a 3rd level spell giving 60' Radius of obscurement to try and infilitrate/exfil
Healing Spirit~All the healing, even in combat.
Spiritual Weapon~ no concentration bonus action damage.
Blindness not concentration hard debuff.
Major Image~non concentration and with an illusionist wizard, mildly broken.

[TheUser]

It's a big list for me; there are plenty of spells that really get to be lots of fun with higher level slots.

Aid: So simple a spell but so powerful and scales well enough that even a 5th level slot for +20 max hp for your squishier friends can be very helpful, even in higher tiers.

Armor of Agathys: is also amazing with higher slots, especially if you can find ways to mitigate physical damage. 25 temp HP and 25 cold damage every time you get hit means that an enemy wailing on you 3x in one round can turn into 75 cold damage with the right amounts of mitigation. It doesn't require concentration so you can have stoneskin up at the same time!

Bane: I feel like using a second level slot to get it on 4 people is somehow...that much better for using your concentration. I love Bane. I think it's a stupendous spell at all ranks. Moderate monsters become trivial and hard monsters become moderate to deal with.

Bestow Curse: Getting rid of concentration at 5th level makes it far more versatile.

Fog Cloud: It's rare for people to know that it's radius goes up by 20ft with each spell level. 5th level Fog is a 200ft diameter circle....Just introduces some mayhem into the equation.

Hold Person: Paralysis on 4 humanoids with a 5th level slot can shut down an entire encounter. You also don't put all your eggs in one basket; some of them are bound to pass, but some of them are also bound to fail :D

Vampiric Touch: My favorite of all of them to upcast. It's not incredible damage, but it's enough to be noticeable over repeat uses especially with those -really- high level slots (8th level yeehaw) and the healing makes it very worthwhile. 8d6 damage a round? also 4d6 self healing too! Really swings a fight around quickly if you start to get low on HP.

[ImproperJustice]

Spirit Guardians: Upcast is a Monster at crushing large melee swarms.

Tiny Servant: At 5th level you have five helper bots for 8 hours as a bonus action. Could get really silly and use an 8th level slot for 11 little minions.

Storm Sphere: upcasting raises the damage of the sphere and bolts.

Fly: Nothing beats suprising a flying enemy with your own air circus.

Aid: Max hit points stack nicely with other temp effects.

Will second invisibility, spiritual weapon, and fog cloud.

[sithlordnergal]

Conjure Animal: Casting this as a 5th level slot is extremely powerful, just make sure you conjure 16 CR 1/4 things. Conjure Woodland Beings is in the same boat.

[Crucius]

Erupting Earth for sure. Big damage, minor crowd control through difficult terrain and it uses my favorite dice; give those d12's some love!

[MrStabby]

Banishment
Hold person
Spirit Guardians
Conjure Animals

And an honourable mention to scorching ray if you are short of spells known.

[Malifice]

Hold person and AoA (with resistance for bonus points) spring to mind.

[Corran]

A few more are mass suggestion, geas, planar binding, major image, counterspell, maybe dominate X. Glyph of warding if you are casting it during downtime.

[Chronos]

Bane is never worthwhile, no matter how many targets you're hitting. If my enemies are failing a save against a concentration spell, I want them out of the fight, not just mildly inconvenienced.

[Corran]

Bane is never worthwhile, no matter how many targets you're hitting. If my enemies are failing a save against a concentration spell, I want them out of the fight, not just mildly inconvenienced.
Yes, bane on it's own is weak. But there is potential for synergy if you follow it up with something like blindness, bestow curse or synaptic static, or even better if you depend on another caster to follow it up with another concentration spell that targets saves. Still, probably not incredible, but ''never'' is a very strong statement. For example, a 2nd/3rd level bane followed up by your ally's hold person (from a 4th/5th level slot) might be (depending on what other tricks your party have) a very good use of resources and concentration if you are fighting against something like the anti-party (or against a few powerful -humanoid- enemies, such as the king's 4 musketeers or sth).

[MrStabby]

Bane is never worthwhile, no matter how many targets you're hitting. If my enemies are failing a save against a concentration spell, I want them out of the fight, not just mildly inconvenienced.

Bane is never going to make my top 10 list, but I think you are being a bit harsh. Sometimes you don't want to use a high level slot and there are plenty of enemies that have a poor Cha save, not a great +to hit but do hit like a truck. For example a party could be facing off against a bunch of gibbering mouthers - for front liners with a solid 18 AC this is going to half the damage taken (and at 5d6 it isn't trivial for a CR2 creature). A cha save spell is very strong but for a fight that shouldn't be that tough you don't want to blow a huge load of resources at it. You could instead be casting shield of faith on each member of the party (assuming everyone is a caster to meet concentration requirements) for a similar effect. It isn't like many of the mouthers would be looking to save at -2 anyway.

It has it's place, is, I guess, what I am saying.

[Sigreid]

My evoker has up cast magic missile in several fights where we needed to hit, and hit hard. It's the int added to each missile that made it worth it.

Edit: I should say in fights where the opponent had significant resistance to the party's normal damage types.

[nickl_2000]

My evoker has up cast magic missile in several fights where we needed to hit, and hit hard. It's the int added to each missile that made it worth it.

Edit: I should say in fights where the opponent had significant resistance to the party's normal damage types.

Magic Missile is always worth it in my opinion. It may not drop a huge amount of damage, but it is respectable, a type that is rarely resisted, and it auto-hits. There is often a good time for that


The spell I have upcast most often in my current campaign is Goodberry. Sure, it doesn't have any effect to upcast it, but it's a great way to have a useful effect out of using up spell slots at the end of the day.

[Beechgnome]

Pretty much...

... any spell that adds targets when you upcast (hold person, blindness (esp. blindness!), Invisibility, heroism, enhance ability, charm person, animal friendship, fly...

...Any spell that drops concentration requirements (bestow curse at 5th, major image when you get a 6th level slot).

...The aforementioned armor of agathys, Aid for adding more hit points, temp and real, respectively. (Get a familiar and give them an upcast Aid! 27 HP are better than 2 for your cat).

...Any damage spell that's scales by d10s or d12s, so inflict wounds or moonbeam or erupting earth.

...Spells that increases area of effect, like fog cloud and later for you confusion.

[ZorroGames]

Timely thread. I will be playing a Tough Tier 1 scenario with a group of four 4th level PCs with my Tempest Cleric 2/Evocation Wizard 2 Gnome this week. Putting this principle to work will help my character contribute to a melee heavy focus team.

[Samayu]

Yes, bane on it's own is weak. But there is potential for synergy if you follow it up with ...

Yes, the worth of the spell depends on how many other spells are going to be coming at them. If you have a caster-heavy party, by all means, give them an edge. I get so tired of having a 50/50 success rate with save spells. "Well, there went my one fourth level spell."

[Chronos]

That'd be worthwhile... if not for the fact that Bane itself has a saving throw. Instead of hoping they fail their save so they'll be more likely to fail their save against something that does something, just cut out the middleman and cast something that does something.

And since others mentioned Erupting Earth, it doesn't actually do more damage than a Fireball unless you're casting at least at 6th level, at which point you're likely to prefer actual 6th-level spells (some of which are very powerful). And it's not as targetable as Fireball, since it's strictly ground-based. But it does do a much less-resisted damage type, and also adds the difficult terrain.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I know it's situational and only a single target spell, but since it's one bards actually know, I'd vote for Heat Metal. It's just such a great spell when you need it against a heavily armored BBG, and the damage scales by 1d8 per spell slot level.

[Citan]

We've all been there, you're making a higher level character from scratch for some one-shot or another. Because it's a one-shot, you haven't really planned every step of their journey from level 1 to whatever level it is you're playing at, and as a result, you have no idea what spells to put on your College of Lore Bard 6/Domain of Knowledge Cleric 4. This particular multiclass has access to level 5 spell slots, but wouldn't know any spells beyond level 3 in either of their classes, so obviously, you would want to load the character up with spells that can be Up Cast, that is to say, spells that have increased and/or additional effects when cast using a higher level spell slot.

So, my question for you guys is, what are some of your favorite Up Cast spells? Spells that may or may not be all that impressive at their base level, but excel when cast at higher levels. They don't need to be Bard or Cleric spells, that was just an example. Now, this is kinda meant as a fun discussion thread, more than anything else, buuuuut, I'll definitely be coming back to this conversation later, next time I'm making a multiclassed caster.

Two that come to my mind immediately are Armor of Agathys and Hex. Problem is, both of these spells are Warlock exclusive. It makes sense for Warlocks to get some good Up Cast spells, as all of their spells are automatically cast at the highest spell level available. But, with them being less accessible, it's definitely a big strike against them in the best Up Cast spells contest.
Well, basically all spells that allow extra creatures targeted for starters: Hold Person, Blindness, Hold Monster, Bnishment, Elemental Bane for offense. Command!! my all-favorite spell, great in and out of combat, and allows some quick control without risk of friendly fire.

Then Fly, Longstrider, Invisibility, Enhance Ability and Heroism for party buff (well, tbh Heroism doesn't scale well enough so it's not a good spell in the long run, but pretty decent 2nd or 3rd level upcast at low level in some attrition fights). Aid does not scale "per creature" but can amount to a pretty good deal when big upcast (5th+ level). Weaponizers such as Dragon's Breath, Shadow Blade or Elemental Weapon are worthy too for some concepts.

Bestow Curse is one of the best since non-concentration (and 8 hours which also helps in some situations). Hex is also decent.
Heat Metal is the absolute best when applicable since no-save damage, but trick can get old if you use too often, enemies will adapt.

Call Lightning, Flaming Sphere, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, Wall of Fire and usually all spells that have scaling damage while being great in cost/benefit ratio.
Special award to Wall of Fire: although fire type, the fact it's auto-damage when crossing makes up for great cross-member tactics.

For utility I quoted Command, but in another field Fog Cloud can be marvelous. Then you of course get all Conjure spells (and necromancy reanimation spells). Finally you can try to have fun with manipulation spells such as Alter Memory / Geas. :) Or "fortress" spells like Private Sanctum or Glyph of Warding.
(Counterspell and Dispel Magic are a given, as well as Heaiing Spirit)

It also depends on your class.
If Warlock, and 4-man party, Invisibility is the one must-have.
If Divine Soul Sorcerer, then Aid is a given with Extend.

If I had to pick a top-10 short list (not accounting for the three obvious quoted above), in random order, no class restriction, and trying to favor low-level spells. (and of course reflecting my taste ;))..
Heat Metal, Fog Cloud, Invisibility, Hold Person, Command, Conjure Animals, Enhance Ability, Spirit Guardians, Wall of Fire, Bestow Curse, Glyph of Warding.



Yes, bane on it's own is weak. But there is potential for synergy if you follow it up with something like blindness, bestow curse or synaptic static, or even better if you depend on another caster to follow it up with another concentration spell that targets saves. Still, probably not incredible, but ''never'' is a very strong statement. For example, a 2nd/3rd level bane followed up by your ally's hold person (from a 4th/5th level slot) might be (depending on what other tricks your party have) a very good use of resources and concentration if you are fighting against something like the anti-party (or against a few powerful -humanoid- enemies, such as the king's 4 musketeers or sth).
Agreed. Not unlike Bestow Curse, this one is an enabler. Not very useful "solo" (unless you follow up with AOE and expect it will make a difference between fail or save), but when you expect several spells to follow by caster pals it's worth every penny. :)



I know it's situational and only a single target spell, but since it's one bards actually know, I'd vote for Heat Metal. It's just such a great spell when you need it against a heavily armored BBG, and the damage scales by 1d8 per spell slot level.
While obviously a YMMV / DM fiat thing, note that you could enable it with some tricks like putting a big silver bead inside an enemy's leather armor (I'd allow it with a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check, and of course the bead must be affected already so the one holding it will suffer damage, it's kind of a "corporeal investment" ^^), planting a sword in order to make it stick inside (STR DC vs CON DC, action to try and get it out by STR check against attacker's previous STR check), trying to manacle someone (in non-combat situation or through ambush), or simply Grapple someone and keep it pressed against your own Heat Metaled armor in bear-like grapple (because you're a big guy that happens to have some natural resistance/immunity to fire so you can take that kind of hurt if it means killing the bad guy quicker)...

Sadly I don't have any way in mind to magically alter a substance on the fly to, for example, transform a leather armor into metal. Would be so fun though ^^.

[Chronos]

You wouldn't need to take damage to drop a Heat Metal-affected piece of metal down an opponent's shirt. The spell only deals damage when cast and when you use a bonus action. So if you have the set-up time, cast the spell, wait a turn, pick it up and plant it, and only then start using your bonus action.

And that's a nice trick-- I'll have to remember that one.

[Crgaston]

That'd be worthwhile... if not for the fact that Bane itself has a saving throw. Instead of hoping they fail their save so they'll be more likely to fail their save against something that does something, just cut out the middleman and cast something that does something.

And since others mentioned Erupting Earth, it doesn't actually do more damage than a Fireball unless you're casting at least at 6th level, at which point you're likely to prefer actual 6th-level spells (some of which are very powerful). And it's not as targetable as Fireball, since it's strictly ground-based. But it does do a much less-resisted damage type, and also adds the difficult terrain.


Bane targets CHA saves, though, which tend to be less resisted, and they don't get a follow up save, so at the very least it's a fair debuff even without other spells from the attack roll penalty alone..

Bane+ Synaptic Static = The Party's Over, Time to Go Home. :)



I don't think anyone's mentioned Dust Devil and Flaming Sphere yet... both these are actually pretty decent upcast, since once cast, they only take your Bonus Action to attack.

4d8 Bludgeoning + 10' shove on a Str save or 5d6 Fire on a Dex save from a 5th level slot.

Shadow Blade from a 5th level slot does 4d8 Psychic. EK11/Warlock 9 can make some hay with that.

[Malifice]

Bane is never worthwhile, no matter how many targets you're hitting. If my enemies are failing a save against a concentration spell, I want them out of the fight, not just mildly inconvenienced.

I've seen readied action Banes work wonders to soften up a target before getting hit with a SoS spell from a secondary caster.

[PhantomSoul]

I've seen readied action Banes work wonders to soften up a target before getting hit with a SoS spell from a secondary caster.

I think I'm missing something -- why Readied Banes instead of regular Action Banes?

[Beechgnome]

I think I'm missing something -- why Readied Banes instead of regular Action Banes?

I'm assuming they meant readying the other spell until after you use your action to cast Bane.

[Eragon123]

Also Darkness has hidden scaling in that it gets harder to dispel using a light spell. But I don't know if I'd call that the "best" just underutilized.

[Chronos]

Likewise for spells which produce light.

[Zuras]

For a Lore Bard/Knowledge Cleric, your best bets will probably be Command and Aid. In encounters with 3-4 humanoid attackers an upcast Command “Flee” can completely disrupt their attack. Aid is very strong up-cast as well, basically free healing up front without needing an action in combat.

Spiritual weapon is also nice up-cast, assuming it looks like the fight will last multiple rounds and you can’t decisively hit the enemy with a Blindness or Hold Person. Since you have other uses for your bonus action, and have access to Hypnotic Pattern, though, those aren’t auto-picks. In particular, you get Command as a domain spell, and Hold Person has the same Wis save, fewer targets, requires concentration, and only affects humanoids. It can last for multiple turns, but usually one turn of lost enemy actions is enough to decisively turn a fight.

You also seem to be a skill monkey, based on the subclass choices, so remember that Enhance Ability adds a target each level too.

More generically, the best upcast spell I have used is Moonbeam. Adding an extra d10 each level is ridiculous. If you don’t need the sunlight, it actually does more damage at 6th level than Sunbeam to single targets. I have cast it as high as 8th level (to distract a beholder, forcing it to point its anti magic ray at it or take 45 damage/turn). If you can grapple enemies and drag them into the beam it is even more awesome.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Sure, I could think of upcasting Magic Missile as a paltry extra 1d4+1 damage, or I could consider it to be forcing a long series of DC 10 CON rolls to maintain concentration for that pesky enemy spellcaster. That alone is very useful.

Scorching Ray; three beams doing 2d6 each, and an extra beam for each higher level slot. As a 6th level spell? Seven beams, potential 14d6 damage.

[Galithar]

Sure, I could think of upcasting Magic Missile as a paltry extra 1d4+1 damage, or I could consider it to be forcing a long series of DC 10 CON rolls to maintain concentration for that pesky enemy spellcaster. That alone is very useful.

Scorching Ray; three beams doing 2d6 each, and an extra beam for each higher level slot. As a 6th level spell? Seven beams, potential 14d6 damage.

In regards to Magic Missle, I don't know if this explicit in RAW or just something I've encountered a lot, the spell specifically calls out the missles striking simultaneously and that has always been ruled at my tables as only dealing damage once and therefore only causing one concentration check. Though possibly with a higher DC of you can break 21 damage. Also note that you only roll the 1d4+1 once and then multiply it by the number of missles impacting the target. Again not sure if that's RAW but I believe it was posted as RAI by Crawford and what all my tables have used.

[Mitsu]

My picks are: Fireball, Spirit Guardians, Bigby's Hand, Bestow Curse, Hold Person/Monster, Banishment, Aid, Healing Word, Shadow Blade (for Nova Sorcadin builds), Magic Missle, Armor of Agathys, Counterspell, Dispell Magic, Blindless/Defness

Those are my top upcast spells. They scale amazingly well whole way to high levels and are generally great spells to have.\


Also it's not peoples favourite but on Clerics I love upcasted Spirtual Weapon as they usually don't build for bonus action usage and they don't have quicken. So upcasted Spiritual Weapon is great spell then combined with Spirit Guardians.

[Chronos]

On the other hand, you could use a single casting of Magic Missile to force multiple enemy spellcasters to make DC 10 concentration saves. Or put all but one of them on whatever big thing your party is trying to focus down at the moment, with one straying off to hit a spellcaster. Remember, they don't all have to hit the same target.

[MaxWilson]

My picks are: Fireball, Spirit Guardians, Bigby's Hand, Bestow Curse, Hold Person/Monster, Banishment, Aid, Healing Word, Shadow Blade (for Nova Sorcadin builds), Magic Missle, Armor of Agathys, Counterspell, Dispell Magic, Blindless/Defness

Those are my top upcast spells. They scale amazingly well whole way to high levels and are generally great spells to have.\

Healing Word, seriously? An extra d4 of healing per spell level? Why does that make your "best upcasting" list?

Magic Missile and Fireball are pretty meh too, IMO, but not quite as bad as Healing Word.

[Galithar]

Healing Word, seriously? An extra d4 of healing per spell level? Why does that make your "best upcasting" list?

Magic Missile and Fireball are pretty meh too, IMO, but not quite as bad as Healing Word.

Healing word is a pretty bad up cast.
Fireball is a poor up cast especially compared to similar spells. It outclasses it's own level, but things like Erupting Earth scale considerably better.
Magic Missle is decent to amazing scaling depending on class and DM ruling. If you use the one damage roll * number of missles it scales very well for evocation wizards with a +int mod to one damage roll of a spell. At high levels with Max int this can be a whopping (1d4+1+5)*number of missles. Now not all DMs will allow this. And some that use the one roll but will still only allow the evocation feature to apply to one Missle. I'm AFB and can't get the exact wording for the ability, if someone could help me out?

[MaxWilson]

Healing word is a pretty bad up cast.
Fireball is a poor up cast especially compared to similar spells. It outclasses it's own level, but things like Erupting Earth scale considerably better.
Magic Missle is decent to amazing scaling depending on class and DM ruling. If you use the one damage roll * number of missles it scales very well for evocation wizards with a +int mod to one damage roll of a spell. At high levels with Max int this can be a whopping (1d4+1+5)*number of missles. Now not all DMs will allow this. And some that use the one roll but will still only allow the evocation feature to apply to one Missle. I'm AFB and can't get the exact wording for the ability, if someone could help me out?

But even for an Evoker, each spell level is only one extra missile, and therefore +8.5 damage. Magic Missile V is 59.5 damage for an Int 20 Evoker; Magic Missile IX is only 93.5 damage. Since when does a 9th level spell, that you get only one of per day, do only 57% more damage than a 5th level spell that you get tons of? Don't get me wrong, Evokers are nice, especially if they start cranking out Wands of Magic Missile (Uncommon: 2 weeks + 200 gp IIRC) in order to spam Magic Missile VII at will. But that's not because Magic Missile scales well--it's because Uncommon magic items are cheap!

And for anyone other than an Evoker, Magic Missile IX is downright crummy. Would you rather do 38.5 force damage to one target, or 140 force/bludgeoning damage (save for half) to a whole bunch of targets at a range up to one mile, or make a dozen creatures obey your command for a year and a day, or instantaneously bind a demon to serve you for six months (save negates)? One of these things is not like the other.

[Galithar]

But even for an Evoker, each spell level is only one extra missile, and therefore +8.5 damage. Magic Missile V is 59.5 damage for an Int 20 Evoker; Magic Missile IX is only 93.5 damage. Since when does a 9th level spell, that you get only one of per day, do only 57% more damage than a 5th level spell that you get tons of? Don't get me wrong, Evokers are nice, especially if they start cranking out Wands of Magic Missile (Uncommon: 2 weeks + 200 gp IIRC) in order to spam Magic Missile VII at will. But that's not because Magic Missile scales well--it's because Uncommon magic items are cheap!

And for anyone other than an Evoker, Magic Missile IX is downright crummy. Would you rather do 38.5 force damage to one target, or 140 force/bludgeoning damage (save for half) to a whole bunch of targets at a range up to one mile, or make a dozen creatures obey your command for a year and a day, or instantaneously bind a demon to serve you for six months (save negates)? One of these things is not like the other.

I didn't mean it scales all the way to 9 lol

I generally only worry about scaling up to level 7 or so. The comparison here for me is disintegrate at level 6.
Above that the spells of that level are almost always better.


10d6 (35) + 40 +5 save for none. 80/save for none
Or 8d4 (12)+8+40. 60 guaranteed.
I personally find that quite competitive the guarantee is worth the lost damage *sometimes*.

[MaxWilson]

Back on the topic of spells that scale well: Animate Dead scales pretty well, especially for a Necromancer, and so does Tiny Objects. In particular, these spells scale not just well with slot level but also with total number of slots, because they don't cost concentration. (Danse Macabre isn't bad either, although it does cost concentration.)

An Evoker can use Magic Missile V and an action to deal about 60 points of damage to any AC, once. A Necromancer can use Danse Macabre, his concentration and his bonus action to deal about 40 points of damage to AC 18, every round; or he can use Animate Dead V and his bonus action to deal about 30 points of damage to AC 18 every round, with no concentration cost. (The damage goes even higher if you do interesting things like give your skeletons longbows instead of shortbows, or give them shortswords to dual-wield. Yeah they won't get their Dex bonus to damage on the offhand attack, and if the DM rules they're not proficient they won't get their +2 proficiency bonus to-hit, but they'll get the Undead Thralls and Danse Macabre damage bonuses and the Danse Macabre to-hit bonus.)

My breakpoint for spell scaling is usually 5th level, because of levels 6+ are far more restricted in 5E than level 5 spells, and I would rarely want to spend a 6th+ level slot on an upcasted spell except Planar Binding instead of on a genuine 7th level spell. But partly I'm being influend by DMG spell point rules, which make 6th+ level spell slots even scarcer than they are under PHB rules, while making 1st-5th level spells pretty much fungible.

[Beechgnome]

Back on the topic of spells that scale well: Animate Dead scales pretty well, especially for a Necromancer, and so does Tiny Objects. In particular, these spells scale not just well with slot level but also with total number of slots, because they don't cost concentration. (Danse Macabre isn't bad either, although it does cost concentration.)

An Evoker can use Magic Missile V and an action to deal about 60 points of damage to any AC, once. A Necromancer can use Danse Macabre, his concentration and his bonus action to deal about 40 points of damage to AC 18, every round; or he can use Animate Dead V and his bonus action to deal about 30 points of damage to AC 18 every round, with no concentration cost. (The damage goes even higher if you do interesting things like give your skeletons longbows instead of shortbows, or give them shortswords to dual-wield. Yeah they won't get their Dex bonus to damage on the offhand attack, and if the DM rules they're not proficient they won't get their +2 proficiency bonus to-hit, but they'll get the Undead Thralls and Danse Macabre damage bonuses and the Danse Macabre to-hit bonus.)

My breakpoint for spell scaling is usually 5th level, because of levels 6+ are far more restricted in 5E than level 5 spells, and I would rarely want to spend a 6th+ level slot on an upcasted spell except Planar Binding instead of on a genuine 7th level spell. But partly I'm being influend by DMG spell point rules, which make 6th+ level spell slots even scarcer than they are under PHB rules, while making 1st-5th level spells pretty much fungible.

This is mostly true. I would make an exception for Banishment. Upcast banishment can render deadly fights trivial and outperform 6th or 7th level spells.

[Yunru]

Depending on how many "on hit" buffs you're running, Scorching Ray.
With something like Hex, each spell level adds 3d6.

[Chronos]

Healing Word might not be good to upcast, but it is a good spell for what the OP was actually wondering about: A spell for a high-level character who only knows low-level spells. In this case, because it doesn't need to be upcast: It does well what it does, even when cast as the first-level spell that it is.

[TheUser]

This is mostly true. I would make an exception for Banishment. Upcast banishment can render deadly fights trivial and outperform 6th or 7th level spells.

I feel like this is just like Wall of Force except it has a save attached to it....I mean if you're up against teleporting creatures it's not as useful but it's always a 5th level slot.

[Beechgnome]

I feel like this is just like Wall of Force except it has a save attached to it....I mean if you're up against teleporting creatures it's not as useful but it's always a 5th level slot.

Well if you are a Wizard and not a Sorcerer and the enemies are laid out just right Wall of Force is the less expensive resource. But Banishment is just one save and charisma at that and if they are fiends or elementals or fey they won't come back, which could be a big and not a feature depending on how you do xp

[sambojin]

Just because it hasn't been mentioned, Enhance Ability.

Want to take a social situation away from a "So, we're rolling while roleplaying, are we?" thing. Enhance your face's charisma for talky, your priest's wisdom for insight/perception and your martial's strength for intimidate/throwing the opposing talker across the room. Encounter solved. Roll-play that, DM!

Will definitely agree on Heat Metal, Hold Person, Flaming Sphere, Goodberry, Conjure X too.

I'd also add Pass Without Trace and Sleet Storm to the list of "happy to cast it up a slot or two" spells, if that's what you need at the time. Big PwT stealth is fine as a 3rd/4th level spell if you're short of 2nd slots for an encounter/situation. Air-proning, lights-out, 40' radius difficult terrain making (doesn't create DT if cast at a point in air-space), heavily obscuring vision-blocker, or vs-spell-DC-concentration-breaker can sometimes be worth a 4th level slot for Sleet Storm as well (it might not do damage, but it does a lot of different things, so is worthwhile preparing most days). Doesn't change what they do, but they're still giving you what you need power-wise at that level of slot usage (mostly).


((in incredibly specific situations/campaigns, Wind Wall can be worth a 4th lvl slot too. A 50' long, arcing wherever you want, "chain lightning", can be nice against boosted skeletons or in low-magic campaigns where you come up against damage resistant/immune enemies (not much resists magical bludgeoning). In those situations, it's "sort of" doing 6d8 damage on that awesome zig-zagging line, Str-save for half. If the base damage was 4d8, I'd actually recommend it as a spell. But it isn't. So it's more about "whoopsie, chose wrong, thank god we're against heaps of Dex'ies/archers/resists/elemental-immunes", but it can be "ok'ish" in those very rare situations. You have plenty of elements to choose from as a Druid. It would be incredible if it could multi-hit a target. But it can't. So it isn't. But it can clear small mook mobs without hitting your own people, so there's that. And, umm, arrow cover? Use Sleet Storm instead for that though. It does stealth/hide too....))

[Sigreid]

But even for an Evoker, each spell level is only one extra missile, and therefore +8.5 damage. Magic Missile V is 59.5 damage for an Int 20 Evoker; Magic Missile IX is only 93.5 damage. Since when does a 9th level spell, that you get only one of per day, do only 57% more damage than a 5th level spell that you get tons of? Don't get me wrong, Evokers are nice, especially if they start cranking out Wands of Magic Missile (Uncommon: 2 weeks + 200 gp IIRC) in order to spam Magic Missile VII at will. But that's not because Magic Missile scales well--it's because Uncommon magic items are cheap!

And for anyone other than an Evoker, Magic Missile IX is downright crummy. Would you rather do 38.5 force damage to one target, or 140 force/bludgeoning damage (save for half) to a whole bunch of targets at a range up to one mile, or make a dozen creatures obey your command for a year and a day, or instantaneously bind a demon to serve you for six months (save negates)? One of these things is not like the other.

An Evoker's magic missile scales pretty well up to a 5th level slot if, and only if, what is needed right now is reliable, probably not resisted damage.

[MaxWilson]

Air-proning, lights-out, 40' radius difficult terrain making (doesn't create DT if cast at a point in air-space), heavily obscuring vision-blocker, or vs-spell-DC-concentration-breaker can sometimes be worth a 4th level slot for Sleet Storm as well

The really ironic thing about Sleet Storm is that it knocks enemies prone while simultaneously depriving you of most of the benefits of knocking your enemies prone: you don't get advantage against them in melee, because you can't see them and disadvantage for an unseen target cancels advantage for a prone target. So the only thing Prone really does is slow them down some more--unless you cease concentration on Sleep Storm to turn the lights back on.

Edit: oh, I see, you're talking about knocking enemies out of the air for falling damage. Good point.

[sambojin]

Yeah.

It's sort of the "Wind Wall" we didn't get side of the spell, but with caveats. Great vision blocker and escape route maker, but with heaps of other stuff to boot, but no damage. Also not too bad at splitting melee groups up a bit too, and with an anti-caster rider. Can be worth a 4th lvl slot sometimes...

On Wind Wall, I know it seems silly, but if you can hit plenty of targets, it can be worth a 4th lvl slot too. Play on a grid? Against lots of tiny enemies that group up? Kapow! Damage-Snake-o'-Death FTW! And not bad in other fairly specific situations too. Ok'ish as an instant damage spell *if* you can hit 5-8 enemies with it, even without resistance/immunity thoughts (though it *is* the Druid anti-skelly-mob spell). Also good with a melee'ish party, just for some simple blasting. Or in a "don't hurt the civilians" situation. But it really wants a die boost (3d12 or 4d8 magical bludgeoning would make me seriously consider it a "must have 3rd lvl spell" for Druids). But if you can hit plenty of targets, even with a save vs Str, it's not bad at lvl3, and can be still good as a lvl4 against certain enemies or situations. I mean, Scorching Ray is "ok'ish" at lvl4 with 5x2d6 vs AC. Wind Wall is still slightly better at 4-7'ishx3d8 vs Str, but you can't multihit targets, so it's only good for mook mobs. At pseudo-6d8 with the right situation, it's quite nice. Pity it doesn't scale, and so feels bad at 4th, and a little lack-lustre even at 3rd. But it can work. Rarely.

(also why I like the Alert feat so much on Druids. Not only do you get your BFC spells out far more often early-on in the turn, you can ready a concentration drop when your melee or shooter is about to go (doesn't take an actual action, so can ready "real stuff") or to cast another spell next turn if you want. And even drop concentration on that if needed. Sleet Storm before everyone, screwing any enemy movement, ready action next turn to cast Wind Wall as soon as Bob begins to act next turn, dropping concentration on SStorm immediately anyway (you used the Damage Snake bit usefully, not the "Wind Wall" side of it, so Betty can unload some arrows too, because you insta-dropped concentration again on Wind Wall the moment the damage pinged). Good spell economy? No. But chaining random Druid crap by turn 2-3 makes Alert very handy so that not only are most of your spells good for a minute/hour, you can chain-ready-action all kinds of wierd stuff so you don't interfere with any party make-up, while still making you and them awesome.
There's plenty of other full caster classes where a bit of Dex+Alert turns readied actions into multi-option F-yous to any opponent, even with no-extra-effect-upslotted-casting, and with no downsides to any particular spell for that playgroup. High init turn 2-3 readied-action BFC nova'ing is fun, and not often talked about.)

[sambojin]

Also, can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet, but Bless.

Bless is amazing. Hey, it now effects an additional target. Cool.

But as a druid, one of the best dips I can take is Cleric. It's great. I can slot-shift 2-4 spells, so I get to take all kinds of weird/ circumstantial/ useful(?) druid stuff, and I get Bless too.

+1d4 attack is fine, especially since most "optimized" characters look toward gaining their own advantage on attacks anyway, so this skyrockets those percentages.

+1d4 to saves is friggen amazing in medium/high level campaigns. For basically anything remotely worrying.

3 people with lvl1. 4 with 2nd, 5 with 3rd. Whatever. Bless is castable from any slot, small or big, and makes good into amazing, for the people that need it, or just for everyone travelling with you in any odd minute that day. You don't ever really feel ashamed at casting Bless from a lvl2-3 slot, if what you need is a bit more save resistance for a situation. This happens more and more on the average day. So lvl2 slots, and even sometimes lvl3 slots, are totally convertible to Bless, just so if you really have to, you can do that stuff all day. Advantage+d4 is amazeballs on attack rolls. +d4 to saves is likewise slightly bigger and better balls against everything that actually takes down parties. Including concentration saves, so it's a steely set you've got, to give your party members their's.

[Aquillion]

Scorching Ray; three beams doing 2d6 each, and an extra beam for each higher level slot. As a 6th level spell? Seven beams, potential 14d6 damage.Upcasting Scorching Ray is even more amazing if you have something that adds damage per attack roll, like a warlock's Hex.


My breakpoint for spell scaling is usually 5th level, because of levels 6+ are far more restricted in 5E than level 5 spells, and I would rarely want to spend a 6th+ level slot on an upcasted spell except Planar Binding instead of on a genuine 7th level spell. But partly I'm being influend by DMG spell point rules, which make 6th+ level spell slots even scarcer than they are under PHB rules, while making 1st-5th level spells pretty much fungible.

It's worth it for spells that can be made permanent (or extremely long-lasting.) An upcasted Geas, for instance, or a permanent Major Image.

[Chronos]

Wait, in what sense are Pass Without Trace, Sleet Storm, or Wind Wall "good spells to upcast"? They don't benefit at all from a higher-level slot. The only reason to ever upcast them is if you're out of low-level slots but not high-level slots, and that just means that there was some other spell that you didn't upcast but should have.

[Galithar]

It's not a 'good spell to up cast' if it's just good to use low level slots on. The question is directed at a multiclassing build that has slot levels higher then they have spells know. It's never good to use my 6th level slot on healing word just because I don't know 6th level spells. It is however good to use that 6th level slot to cast erupting earth because it scales well and at that level outperforms fireball.

[MaxWilson]

It's worth it for spells that can be made permanent (or extremely long-lasting.) An upcasted Geas, for instance, or a permanent Major Image.

Agreed. Planar Binding, Mass Suggestion, Major Image, and Geas are the stand-outs.

[sambojin]

Wait, in what sense are Pass Without Trace, Sleet Storm, or Wind Wall "good spells to upcast"? They don't benefit at all from a higher-level slot. The only reason to ever upcast them is if you're out of low-level slots but not high-level slots, and that just means that there was some other spell that you didn't upcast but should have.

They're so good and situationally versatile that they are exactly what you said. Good to cast at higher level slots when you run out of lvl2/3 slots. With no bonus to them for doing so. So were worthwhile mentioning in this thread.

It's a Druid thing I guess... You have weird extended slot economy, not only on long-duration scaling of DoT and summon spells, but also on "probably wouldn't be a bad spell a slot or two up anyway" sort of thing.

There are a hell of a lot of "meh" spells on the Druid lists at higher levels. There's also a heap of "not up-castable in this situation for good effect" damage or summon spells too.

Whereas, PwT and Sleet Storm can nearly always do something, so are totally upcastable. They always give good effect, even with no scaling from slot.


Wind Wall is not a good spell. Unless, in very specific circumstances, it is. Where it would even be a good 4th lvl spell. Until then, it kinda sucks. As mentioned.
(immune to fire? Resistant to lightning? Immune to non-magical weapons? A fair few enemies at once like that? If you're not a Shepherd druid, you Wind Wall that kind of stuff if you're doing a bit of damage casting. Even as a 4th lvl slot. Especially when there's heaps of friendlies or melee characters with you. Perfectly acceptable use of a 4th lvl slot to hit 4-8 enemies with 3d8 magical bludgeoning/Str save for half, with the sort of accuracy Wind Wall gives you on a grid. Even as an instant-concentration-drop, damage-only spell. Most DMs *don't* give you the stupidly broken parts of Summon Woodland Beings at lvl4. But you do always get an option of several "chain-lightning-lite" spells a day, regardless. Druids kind of look at the slot system of spells as a vague recommendation most of the time anyway).

[Sigreid]

Continual Flame cast from I think a 3rd level or higher slot gives you a light source that the darkness spell can't squash. Will only need to cast it a few times most likely, but you could for example give everyone in the party a defense against the darkness spell that never fades and then swap the spell out later for a more generally useful one.

[sambojin]

That's a good one. If you ever get any downtime, it's a must-do thingy. An couple of arrows, a thingy, and maybe a sheathable weapon.

Not that the DM can't work around it, but it's just more "able to be turned off by common means" permanent magic items for you and your party to use.

[djreynolds]

Inflict wounds at 2nd level is 4d10, not bad

[ZorroGames]

In regards to Magic Missle, I don't know if this explicit in RAW or just something I've encountered a lot, the spell specifically calls out the missles striking simultaneously and that has always been ruled at my tables as only dealing damage once and therefore only causing one concentration check. Though possibly with a higher DC of you can break 21 damage. Also note that you only roll the 1d4+1 once and then multiply it by the number of missles impacting the target. Again not sure if that's RAW but I believe it was posted as RAI by Crawford and what all my tables have used.

Multiple dice (D4, please, plinking time,) have been common at all the AL tables I have played but one and the DM changed his/her mind after all 7 players said, “Huh? Since when?” because of obvious past practice expectations. Cannot speak for non-AL gaming since I only play AL... not that a nice AL lite/like campaign would not tempt me right now.

[darknite]

I like Aid. I often use my highest or 2nd highest spell slot to boost HP to my PC and those party members that seem like they can use it.

[ZorroGames]

Yesterday at a Tier 1 game at Role Call 2 in Vandalia, IL, I ran a Forest Gnome Evoker 2/Tempest Cleric 2 with a pair of Melee Martial (Kensei and Fighter 1) and two shooters - Rogue and, IIRC, a first level martial. We had a lot of cavern Choke Point melees along with some wonderful outrageous role play (single pony mounted Gnome rides out to seek information from 5 obviously fleeing Hobgoblins while other 6 PCs remain in hiding.). Second rank up casting was my mainstay versus Ogres, Half Ogres, Orogs, and Orcs. Oh, upcast sleep versus a bunch of Goblins too.

I more than held my own with just upcasting the one Sleep, multiple Magic Missile, Inflict Wounds, a pair of Healing words, Bless, Chromatic Orb, and and a few “empty spell moments” of Cantrips. The way the shooters were rolling 😕 I could not get fancy or use Burning Hnads, color Spray, or Thunderwave without Blue on Blue collateral damage. I will feel more “martial lite” once I get Lightning Bolt but it worked nicely at Tier 1.

[Keravath]

Magic Missile is always worth it in my opinion. It may not drop a huge amount of damage, but it is respectable, a type that is rarely resisted, and it auto-hits. There is often a good time for that


The spell I have upcast most often in my current campaign is Goodberry. Sure, it doesn't have any effect to upcast it, but it's a great way to have a useful effect out of using up spell slots at the end of the day.

This is when you need a level of life cleric.

"Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature. the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level."

If you have a level of life cleric, every upcast level of Goodberry increases the healing by one point. They start out as 4 hit points at level 1, but Goodberry cast with a level 5 slot with a level of life cleric heals 8hp/berry :)

[Chronos]

I'm not sure that that counts as effective upcasting, though. If you've got a life cleric dip, then Goodberries typically heal the same amount no matter what level you cast them at: Up to full.

[Mitsu]

I'm not sure that that counts as effective upcasting, though. If you've got a life cleric dip, then Goodberries typically heal the same amount no matter what level you cast them at: Up to full.

According to Rule Answers it works that way and does counts as effective upcasting:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015

So yes, upcasted Goodberry increases HP healed by Disciple of Life per slot/spell level bonus.

[Galithar]

According to Rule Answers it works that way and does counts as effective upcasting:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015

So yes, upcasted Goodberry increases HP healed by Disciple of Life per slot/spell level bonus.

I think he meant that with a life Cleric dip it's easy to use goodberries to put everyone at full so it matters less what slot you use because the outcome will be everyone at full. Not sure I agree with it, but that was my interpretation of his post.

[Chronos]

Yeah, that. Your healing ends up being limited not by your slots, but by your party's HP maximum. You could use higher-level berries for even more healing, but there's no need for them.