Why did Loki screw over Hel?

[paladinofshojo]

I don’t get why Loki would even trick Hel which severely depowered her?

Never mind the fact that she’s his daughter, as another evil deity shouldn’t it be better for Loki to have Hel around as a potential tool to use to foil the Northern Pantheon?

Also, I am under the impression that he’s chaotic right? So why does he care if having Hel around upsets the balance of things?

Is there something I’m not seeing here, it just seems out of character to me.

[Peelee]

I believe in the Grey Wolf Theory: that Loki was able to kill two birds with one stone. He not only screwed over Hel, but also Thor, by having him, a (seemingly) Chaotic god, be the biggest patron of one of the most Lawful societies on the Material Plane. I also wonder if it wouldn't have an effect on Thor like the non-magic-believers had on Odin, in messing him up somewhat for the next iteration of the planet.

[Fyraltari]

Loki is kind of a living reminder that most of the more devastating events in history have as their reason : ‘It seemed like a good idea at the time’.

[Draconi Redfir]

yeah i seriously doubt there was anything inherently malicious or planned about it all. Loki is a trickster god, most likely he just thought it'd be funny.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don’t get why Loki would even trick Hel which severely depowered her?

Never mind the fact that she’s his daughter, as another evil deity shouldn’t it be better for Loki to have Hel around as a potential tool to use to foil the Northern Pantheon?

Also, I am under the impression that he’s chaotic right? So why does he care if having Hel around upsets the balance of things?

Is there something I’m not seeing here, it just seems out of character to me.

Because Evil is not one Big Happy Family (except when it is), so Loki depowering an Evil deity means more evil souls for him. If I am correct, as Peelee succinctly described above, and Loki was also angling to tie up Thor, it also meant more human souls for Loki, since Thor has been so busy micromanaging dwarven life that he does not have anywhere near as many non-dwarf followers in the Northern lands as you would expect.

Grey Wolf

[RatElemental]

It's entirely possible Loki did this because he foresaw the destruction of the world putting his daughter at the head of the northern pantheon, a fact he could reveal once it was all said and done.

It's also possible that his reason was to teach his daughter the importance of a balanced diet clerics and was planning to let the souls of the world be devoured by the snarl to keep her from getting too powerful.

My headcanon is that it was the latter, but then the dark one ascended and now he actually does want to save the world but if the snarl gets out and eats everyone he hasn't lost anything he wasn't prepared to lose going into this world anyway. He can claim his intentions were the first thing too if it comes to that.

[Peelee]

It's entirely possible Loki did this because he foresaw the destruction of the world putting his daughter at the head of the northern pantheon, a fact he could reveal once it was all said and done.

I think any god not foreseeing the destruction of the world would have to be massively optimistic.

[RatElemental]

I think any god not foreseeing the destruction of the world would have to be massively optimistic.

The main part of that sentence was the "putting her at the top of the northern pantheon" bit. It wouldn't necessarily be obvious that Hel would get all the dwarven souls when the gods destroyed the world, and it's possible to destroy the world without empowering Hel, via the snarl.

[Draconi Redfir]

Why does it need to be a big conspiracy to depower / empower Hel and/or Thor?

Why can't it just be "Loki (Trickster god) was tricking his family members (Again)"?

[paladinofshojo]

True, Loki is a trickster god but I feel like he has much more common sense than just screwing over people for the sake of screwing them over.

I mean he did have to tell his brother “dude, don’t taint the god killing abomination” remember?

[Peelee]

Why does it need to be a big conspiracy to depower / empower Hel and/or Thor?

Why can't it just be "Loki (Trickster god) was tricking his family members (Again)"?

..the GW Hypothesis isn't a big conspiracy, though. It's literally "Loki (Trickster god) was tricking his family members (Again), And Here's the Trick."

[Draconi Redfir]

..the GW Hypothesis isn't a big conspiracy, though. It's literally "Loki (Trickster god) was tricking his family members (Again), And Here's the Trick."

yeah but everyone is saying "He did it because he wants hel to die" or "because he wants hel to become uber powerful" or "because he has X plan with Y as a component to accomplish ABC muahahaha"

When all we've seen is him effectively saying "Hey, guys. Let's try something different."

[Peelee]

yeah but everyone is saying "He did it because he wants hel to die" or "because he wants hel to become uber powerful" or "because he has X plan with Y as a component to accomplish ABC muahahaha"

When all we've seen is him effectively saying "Hey, guys. Let's try something different."

Again, which is why I like the GW Hypothesis. "He did it because it's a prank on Hel and Thor that bites them in the ass for a world or two." pretty tame god prank there, in the sense of billions of worlds they've been through so far. No goal other than the other two getting temporarily shafted.

[Draconi Redfir]

Again, which is why I like the GW Hypothesis. "He did it because it's a prank on Hel and Thor that bites them in the ass for a world or two." pretty tame god prank there, in the sense of billions of worlds they've been through so far. No goal other than the other two getting temporarily shafted.

ohh, seems we're on the same page then. gotcha.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

yeah but everyone is saying "He did it because he wants hel to die" or "because he wants hel to become uber powerful" or "because he has X plan with Y as a component to accomplish ABC muahahaha"

When all we've seen is him effectively saying "Hey, guys. Let's try something different."

Well, I'm not "everyone", and the conclusion of my hypothesis is not "to kill Hel" but to depower her. The equivalent of scamming her out of money for this world, to make himself richer in the process.

Grey Wolf

[NerdyKris]

What strip was the flashback to the plan shown in? I'm having trouble finding it, but wasn't it just to prove a point? I don't think Loki was trying to kill Hel or empower her, but was just proving that priests were important.

[hroþila]

I think Loki would or should have foreseen that the bet would most likely result in Hel getting all the dwarven souls eventually and possibly becoming more powerful than Odin. If he didn't foresee it, however, that's fine because he's probably not supposed to think things through. But what about the other gods? Assuming they also had to agree with the bet (which isn't strictly canon, but seems like the most natural assumption on how the bet can work in practice from what we've been told, because those souls weren't strictly Thor's to gamble), they should have foreseen it. Would they have agreed in that case? That seems dubious, so I'm going to assume the other gods didn't need to agree. Which would be odd, because again, those souls weren't Thor's. But perhaps they only needed Odin's agreement, and he was extra senile at the time (which we know he was).

Anyway, that's probably the most confusing paragraph I've ever written, but what I'm trying to get at is that my theory is that Loki did this mostly to have fun at the expense of Hel and Thor, but also ultimately to weaken Thor and make his daughter more powerful and teach her a lesson (or at any rate, when he thought of this outcome he was OK with it; maybe he thought deposing Odin would be even funnier). But the emergence of the Dark One's purple quiddity changed everything, so Loki abandoned his prank and focused on trying to stop the cycle of world creation/destruction. Except the prank has come back to bite him.

[Jasdoif]

What strip was the flashback to the plan shown in?Strip 1083. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html)

[NerdyKris]

Found it. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html

I remembered the deal wrong.

There's a plan being implied by the way Loki sets it up.

edit- damn banana ninja

[Peelee]

Impressive. Most impressive.

ETA: Dangit, Fyraltari, now it's not as impressive!

[Jasdoif]

banana ninjaBaninja. What?

[Peelee]

Baninja.

Bananja. Fight me.

[hroþila]

Bananja. Fight me.
Seven Bananjas. Maybe more.

[Jasdoif]

Bananja.No, no, that's related to the activity...if NerdyKris had said "banana ninjary" then it would be bananja. It can be traced back to the conjugated form of "bananjar", which is rarely used because it reminds people too much of peanut butter.

[Peelee]

No, no, that's related to the activity...if NerdyKris had said "banana ninjary" then it would be bananja. It can be traced back to the conjugated form of "bananjar", which is rarely used because it reminds people too much of peanut butter.

I find this acceptable. And not just because you apparently know that conjugation is my kryptonite.

[Fyraltari]

ETA: Dangit, Fyraltari, now it's not as impressive!
What do you mean?

[Peelee]

What do you mean?

Were you not the one who made the third post at 3:38 CST with a link to the 1083, then deleted it by the time I posted? I thought it was, but my memory is shaky on the best of days.

[Fyraltari]

Were you not the one who made the third post at 3:38 CST with a link to the 1083, then deleted it by the time I posted? I thought it was, but my memory is shaky on the best of days.

Yes, but that brought nothing to the table.

[Peelee]

Yes, but that brought nothing to the table.

It brought impressiveness!

[Jasdoif]

It brought impressiveness!Yes; that would have made it bananjan or bananjamos.

[Fyraltari]

It brought impressiveness!
Well, I mean... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv13gl0a-FA)

What do you mean?

[RowenMorland]

Strip 1083. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html)

Hel makes it sound like winning the bet gives you something more than just the power of the souls. Like she'll get the power from all those souls, enough power to be head of her pantheon but she'll also get another choice prize.

If that's true then maybe whatever that is is the key to why Loki set the bet up.

[Riftwolf]

I doubt this is the first such bet. Over billions of worldlives, Lokis probably set up millions of wagers and bets. And, seeing as Gods don't have perfect foresight, they take him up on his hustles because they make things interesting. Sometimes one side of the bet gets screwed, sometimes both sides do. But the point of the bets is that they keep everyone playing. It shakes things up, stops the cycle from becoming boring, and sometimes they create unexpected results. I mean, who could've predicted the chain of events that led to Durkon being given his new divine mission? While the wager wasn't the sole cause of it, the chain would've been broken if Hel had a High Priest at the Moots.

[tyckspoon]

Largely unsupported headcanon: Hel could have ended the bet whenever she wanted, get her normal due of souls back, and make Clerics and participate in the world as usual. All she'd have to do is go to the rest of her pantheon and admit to being wrong. Souls aren't the most important thing, she lost the bet. Just.. admit to choosing wrong. To having lost. She can't do it. She'll go to any lengths to avoid that.

[Anymage]

My hunch is that, for Hel, the point of the bet is exactly what it looks like. Teach her that minding her followers is important if she wants a balanced divine diet. It may screw her up for a world or two, but that's no big deal over divine timespans with their countless millions of worlds. One or two worlds seem like a lot to us, but we've seen how vastly different divine scales are.

[Draconi Redfir]

I doubt this is the first such bet. Over billions of worldlives, Lokis probably set up millions of wagers and bets. And, seeing as Gods don't have perfect foresight, they take him up on his hustles because they make things interesting. Sometimes one side of the bet gets screwed, sometimes both sides do. But the point of the bets is that they keep everyone playing. It shakes things up, stops the cycle from becoming boring, and sometimes they create unexpected results. I mean, who could've predicted the chain of events that led to Durkon being given his new divine mission? While the wager wasn't the sole cause of it, the chain would've been broken if Hel had a High Priest at the Moots.

seconding this. i'll bet almost every god of every pantheon has had a bet like this going at some point or another. In this instance though Hel was involved, and she's taking things more seriously then everyone else did.

[factotum]

yeah i seriously doubt there was anything inherently malicious or planned about it all. Loki is a trickster god, most likely he just thought it'd be funny.

Yeah, this. Loki's whole schtick is playing tricks on the other Gods, both in real-world mythology and in OotS.

[Morquard]

Just to put a few things into perspective:

In 1140 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html) Durkon speculated there are "millions [of worlds], maybe billions". Let's take a somewhat conservative estimate from that and say 50 million.

A human that lived for 90 years, has lived for 32,872 days or 788,928 hours or 47,335,680 minutes ...

Those gods have likely survived more worlds than a human lifespan has MINUTES!

What Loki did to Hel was more of a prank that will clear up and will be forgotten or laughed about together in 10 minutes than anything life threatening.

[KorvinStarmast]

Loki is kind of a living reminder that most of the more devastating events in history have as their reason : ‘It seemed like a good idea at the time’. Yeah. (Not sure if that's Rich's intent, but it fits like a glove). Hold my beer ...
Loki is a trickster god, most likely he just thought it'd be funny. Arrival of the-weirdo in 3, 2, 1 to laud the very essence of being chaotic ... hey, where did he go?

Why can't it just be "Loki (Trickster god) was tricking his family members (Again)"? That's my baseline assumption.
The equivalent of scamming her out of money for this world, to make himself richer in the process. This also fits.

Seven Bananjas. Maybe more. Duelling bananjas?


Those gods have likely survived more worlds than a human lifespan has MINUTES!

[Mightymosy]

Maybe the plan is not primarily about Hel, but about Loki getting followers:
The stupid setup means dwarves need to die honorably in order to avoid Hell (note Loki proposed this exception!).
ALTERNATIVELY, they can be followers of Loki - if they are of a certain mindset that fits.
What, you wish to follow a different chaotic evil diety? Like a goddess of sickness and disease, maybe? Too bad, she doesn't do clerics in this world......
So, choose Loki or bust!

(yes there are MORE gods, but still one goddess less for competition is good for Loki,I'd guess)

[Mad Humanist]

I believe in the Grey Wolf Theory: that Loki was able to kill two birds with one stone. He not only screwed over Hel, but also Thor, by having him, a (seemingly) Chaotic god, be the biggest patron of one of the most Lawful societies on the Material Plane. I also wonder if it wouldn't have an effect on Thor like the non-magic-believers had on Odin, in messing him up somewhat for the next iteration of the planet.

I wonder if Loki was responsible for Odin's mental health issues. I suspect we're never going to find out though.

[dps]

My guess would be that Loki hates the undead (which is stated in-comic) and since Hel's domain includes the undead, he did it because weakening Hel would mean fewer and weaker undead.

[understatement]

To thread q:

Why not?

[Jasdoif]

Duelling bananjas?Yes. Formally speaking, "bananjas" would only be appropriate to the two parties in the duel with respect to each other, while for a third party observer "bananja" would be correct conjugation....But traditionally, "bananjas" was used to additionally imply a duel was taking place; so it's still considered correct to say dueling baninjas are undertaking bananjas, and was so even before "bananja"'s noun formulation was widely accepted.

[Aveline]

My guess would be that Loki hates the undead (which is stated in-comic) and since Hel's domain includes the undead, he did it because weakening Hel would mean fewer and weaker undead.

My question is, for how many worlds' time has Loki hated the undead?

[Peelee]

My question is, for how many worlds' time has Loki hated the undead?

How many worlds even have undead?

[Aeson]

How many worlds even have undead?
While we have insufficient information to answer that, I would point out that undead creatures - or undead-like creatures - are a fairly common element of fantasy settings. Not universal, of course, but fairly common.

Also, assuming that a deity of X is a deity of X because the deity is in some way interested in X (as opposed to being a deity of X because mortals chose to ascribe X to the deity or consider X to be related to the deity's domains), it's relatively likely that X is going to be something common across most of the worlds that the deity had a hand in creating.

[Peelee]

While we have insufficient information to answer that, I would point out that undead creatures - or undead-like creatures - are a fairly common element of fantasy settings. Not universal, of course, but fairly common.

Also, assuming that a deity of X is a deity of X because the deity is in some way interested in X (as opposed to being a deity of X because mortals chose to ascribe X to the deity or consider X to be related to the deity's domains), it's relatively likely that X is going to be something common across most of the worlds that the deity had a hand in creating.

Yes, but there's nothing saying that most, or even a significant portion, of the worlds were fantasy settings. There was a sentient movie theater snacks world, after all, which likely had a patron deity of ice, and a deity who hated the sliced jalapeños that go with nachos, just to give examples.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but there's nothing saying that most, or even a significant portion, of the worlds were fantasy settings. There was a sentient movie theater snacks world, after all, which likely had a patron deity of ice, and a deity who hated the sliced jalapeños that go with nachos, just to give examples.

The sentient snacks used magic.

[Peelee]

The sentient snacks used magic.

From my point of view they used midichlorians.

[Fyraltari]

From my point of view they used midichlorians.

Those don't make the flashy lights. Maybe get your point of view checked by a point of eye doctor?

[Jasdoif]

Yes, but there's nothing saying that most, or even a significant portion, of the worlds were fantasy settings. There was a sentient movie theater snacks world, after all, which likely had a patron deity of ice, and a deity who hated the sliced jalapeños that go with nachos, just to give examples.The Freezer was an overdeity who didn't grant spells or otherwise interact with sentient snacks. The Slushie, on the other hand....

[Peelee]

Those don't make the flashy lights. Maybe get your point of view checked by a point of eye doctor?

The doc said nothing was medically wrong but I seem to be losing the will to live. The healthcare system in this universe is ridiculous.

Anyway, yeah, on further reflection I might be wrong. It's definitely possible (even very likely) that magic, and undead, and everything else they are patron gods of exist in every world.

[Rrmcklin]

I wonder if Loki was responsible for Odin's mental health issues. I suspect we're never going to find out though.

Well, yeah, works don't usually tend to answer questions they don't pose. There's no reason to actually assume Loki was involved with Odin's situation besides "He's Loki, so obviously he's involved with everything."

[Fyraltari]

The doc said nothing was medically wrong but I seem to be losing the will to live. The healthcare system in this universe is ridiculous.
What's his degree in (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAKtZ_r0V6E)? Alternatively, who does he specialize in treating (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0639.html)?


Anyway, yeah, on further reflection I might be wrong. It's definitely possible (even very likely) that magic, and undead, and everything else they are patron gods of exist in every world.
I think that the job descriptions are a bit flexible, though (Else you have frost giants next to sentient pizzas), in gritty cyberpunk world, Hel might have had dominion over technozombies (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CyberneticsEatYourSoul).

EDIT: Also I don't think loki could trick a in-command-of-all-his-mental-faculties Odin. One is a trickster, the other is a planner.

[Peelee]

What's his degree in (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAKtZ_r0V6E)?
Art history (http://i.imgur.com/VVSjtWp.jpg).

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAKtZ_r0V6E"]I think that the job descriptions are a bit flexible, though (Else you have frost giants next to sentient pizzas)
You mean the big ice cubes?

[Papa_Hewi]

I remember Hilgya talking about choosing Loki because his followers had some kind of exemption to the rules of honour? I don't remember the exact quote but if that's the case, Loki becomes the primary candidate of worship to any dwarf that doesn't want to live a life of subservience.

[Peelee]

I remember Hilgya talking about choosing Loki because his followers had some kind of exemption to the rules of honour? I don't remember the exact quote but if that's the case, Loki becomes the primary candidate of worship to any dwarf that doesn't want to live a life of subservience.

That's 1113 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1113.html), and it's a theory, not a rule. Big gamble, and one won't pay off, if you ask me.

[Papa_Hewi]

, and it's a theory, not a rule. Big gamble, and one won't pay off, if you ask me.

Doesn't have to pay off, Loki just has to think it's a good idea. Best case scenario is he becomes the primary god of his pantheon, worst case scenario he has to talk down his angry, and at this point, easily manipulated daughter who's now the most powerful Northern God.

Note when I say easily manipulated I mean in Loki's mind. Tricksters like him rarely expect major repercussions for their actions, and he could argue that it was his plan to make his loving daughter the ruler the entire time. He's got to have a ridiculous bluff modifier after all.

(Had to delete the link since this is a new account, thank you for posting it)

[Peelee]

Doesn't have to pay off

For the dwarves it does. Hilgya is the only one we've seen to espouse that theory, and her judgement is... let's call it severely compromised.

[Rrmcklin]

Doesn't have to pay off, Loki just has to think it's a good idea. Best case scenario is he becomes the primary god of his pantheon, worst case scenario he has to talk down his angry, and at this point, easily manipulated daughter who's now the most powerful Northern God.

Note when I say easily manipulated I mean in Loki's mind. Tricksters like him rarely expect major repercussions for their actions, and he could argue that it was his plan to make his loving daughter the ruler the entire time. He's got to have a ridiculous bluff modifier after all.

(Had to delete the link since this is a new account, thank you for posting it)

There's no indication that Loki actually came up with the idea, is the thing. It's presented as something that Hilgya came up with, and spreads around on her own.

[ijuinkun]

For the dwarves it does. Hilgya is the only one we've seen to espouse that theory, and her judgement is... let's call it severely compromised.

Perhaps, but believing that following the Way of Loki provides a third option besides Hel or Thor would definitely make for a major draw for dwarves to follow Loki.

[Papa_Hewi]

There's no indication that Loki actually came up with the idea, is the thing. It's presented as something that Hilgya came up with, and spreads around on her own.

Loki is the god of chaos and trickery. Why would he push for a heavily regimented society like the one belonging to the dwarves, other than to throw a monkey wrench into the system? At present, the only logical explanation is that he wants to recruit dwarves like Hilgya into worshipping him.

[Rrmcklin]

Loki is the god of chaos and trickery. Why would he push for a heavily regimented society like the one belonging to the dwarves, other than to throw a monkey wrench into the system? At present, the only logical explanation is that he wants to recruit dwarves like Hilgya into worshipping him.

And where was it said that Loki pushed for Dwarven society to be this way? Thor is the one stated to have done that. Defending one assumption with another assumption isn't particularly convincing. I also don't share your assumption that Loki specifically wanting to recruit dwarves is the only "logical" explanation, by the way.

And as I think I already mentioned, I don't consider "It's Loki" to be by itself, a convincing argument.

[Morquard]

Loki is the god of chaos and trickery. Why would he push for a heavily regimented society like the one belonging to the dwarves, other than to throw a monkey wrench into the system? At present, the only logical explanation is that he wants to recruit dwarves like Hilgya into worshipping him.

I refer back to my earlier post. The lifetime of a single world is not a long time for these gods. He probably thought it would be funny to put Thor into a position where he's responsible for an entire race and feel guilty about every soul going to Hel, and if Thor turns it into a lawful honorbound society, that goes so much against Thor's nature, that it's funny to watch too.

And if it doesn't work out, well, it's only one world, no big deal, lets try something else tomorrow.

[Peelee]

Loki is the god of chaos and trickery. Why would he push for a heavily regimented society like the one belonging to the dwarves, other than to throw a monkey wrench into the system? At present, the only logical explanation is that he wants to recruit dwarves like Hilgya into worshipping him.
Loki's deal with Hel was what made the dwarves a strictly honorable society, though, not the other way around.

[Papa_Hewi]

And where was it said that Loki pushed for Dwarven society to be this way? Thor is the one stated to have done that. Defending one assumption with another assumption isn't particularly convincing. I also don't share your assumption that Loki specifically wanting to recruit dwarves is the only "logical" explanation, by the way.

And as I think I already mentioned, I don't consider "It's Loki" to be by itself, a convincing argument.

Loki's the one who established the bet. Thor is the one who stacked the deck against Hel by making sure the dwarves knew what happens if they die without honour. If it wasn't for Loki's schemes, there would have been no need for Thor to create the dwarves society the way he did.

Assuming Hilgya is right about dogma=honour, then the dwarves now get an opportunity to do what they want rather than what they're told. (Technically anyway)

And with everything we know at the moment, the two possibilities are that he either did it for the lulz (which is possible seeing as this arc's main drive seems to have been for Durkon to meet Thor and provide the new information to the party) or he's doing it to recruit souls for himself. Unless I missed something, but I can't really think of any other hints or clues that have been dropped.

[Morquard]

I just think if his plan was the "that way I get more clerics" scheme that Hilgya cooked up, then he would have advertised that a bit better and actually managed a sizable following already, and wouldn't have waited till 3 minutes before the closing of the gates to have a single cleric start spreading the word.

[Papa_Hewi]

I refer back to my earlier post. The lifetime of a single world is not a long time for these gods. He probably thought it would be funny to put Thor into a position where he's responsible for an entire race and feel guilty about every soul going to Hel, and if Thor turns it into a lawful honorbound society, that goes so much against Thor's nature, that it's funny to watch too.

And if it doesn't work out, well, it's only one world, no big deal, lets try something else tomorrow.

If one world wasn't a big deal, Hel wouldn't be about to become the main goddess of the northern pantheon?

Besides, it's not really a fundamental change like what happened to Odin. As it is Thor is still about protecting the innocent, getting hammed, and just doing good stuff in general. You can still be chaotic and have a strict code of conduct.

[Rrmcklin]

Papa_Hewi, I think what you're missing here is that if Loki (for some reason) wanted to get some big following among the dwarves, this this entire scenario was a terrible way to go about it.

Because most dwarves don't do what Hilgya does - they (at least try) to follow the system of honor and primarily worship gods like Thor and Odin. If the honor system didn't exist, he'd probably have a fairly substantial following among the dwarves anyway just by virtue of being a prominent Northern God - it strikes me as more likely that this arrangement would hinder him having a following of dwarves, not advance it.

Claiming that the only logical reason that Loki would do this being that he for some reason wanted to break off a chunk of action for a race they hadn't even created yet quickly falls apart if you actually examine what we've been told of this situation and how Dwarven society tends to work.

Anyway, I think what this really comes down to is that we don't have enough information to figure out Loki's motives at all. Claiming it "definitely has to be either this or that", means nothing at this point.

[hroþila]

Papa_Hewi, I think what you're missing here is that if Loki (for some reason) wanted to get some big following among the dwarves, this this entire scenario was a terrible way to go about it.

Because most dwarves don't do what Hilgya does - they (at least try) to follow the system of honor and primarily worship gods like Thor and Odin. If the honor system didn't exist, he'd probably have a fairly substantial following among the dwarves anyway just by virtue of being a prominent Northern God - it strikes me as more likely that this arrangement would hinder him having a following of dwarves, not advance it.

Claiming that the only logical reason that Loki would do this being that he for some reason wanted to break off a chunk of action for a race they hadn't even created yet quickly falls apart if you actually examine what we've been told of this situation and how Dwarven society tends to work.

Anyway, I think what this really comes down to is that we don't have enough information to figure out Loki's motives at all. Claiming it "definitely has to be either this or that", means nothing at this point.
It is true that if this was Loki's plan to gain more followers among the dwarves then it was a massive failure, but Loki setting things in motion that he hasn't thought through and those things coming back to bite him is pretty much how Loki operates in more than a few settings/legends.

I agree that it wouldn't be the only logical reason that Loki would do that, though, partly because that depends on whether "for ****s and giggles" counts as logical, but also because I still think his plan could have been to make Hel more powerful while giving her a lesson, and also to weaken Odin.

[Rrmcklin]

It is true that if this was Loki's plan to gain more followers among the dwarves then it was a massive failure, but Loki setting things in motion that he hasn't thought through and those things coming back to bite him is pretty much how Loki operates in more than a few settings/legends.

I agree that it wouldn't be the only logical reason that Loki would do that, though, partly because that depends on whether "for ****s and giggles" counts as logical, but also because I still think his plan could have been to make Hel more powerful while giving her a lesson, and also to weaken Odin.

Fair enough, Loki could have just come up with a stupid plan he didn't think through. That could be the reason for humor, though I find it less likely than there being an actual reason, that we just can't figure out right now because we don't have all the pieces.

[Titanium Dragon]

There's several possibilities here:

1) Loki was messing with the other gods - very plausible, he is a trickster, and it is rather funny forcing the CG god to act the part of a LG one, and for Hel to get screwed out of having clerics (and learning an important lesson in the process).

2) Loki was doing this on behalf of another god - perhaps it was one of Odin's plans, and this was all set in motion to create the present set of circumstances.

3) Loki did it on his own initiative, because he foresaw the possibility of it leading to some positive outcome.

4) Loki just wanted to try something new, and thought this setup would be fun.

5) Loki really does dislike the undead, and this situation made them less powerful/plentiful in this world than usual.

6) Loki was trying to set up the present situation with the dwarves and the possibility of them dying honorably by living dishonorably in the name of Loki - if so, why wait so long to spring the trap? Of course, it's possible that he couldn't say anything, he had to let them come up with it on their own (or it was more fun that way...)

7) Loki doesn't actually like his own daughter all that much, and was deliberately trying to weaken her/force her to change her ways. She does seem a bit for the evulz, whereas Loki seems to actually have more affection for the people of the planet and the sanctity of life in general.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I long ago found out that when the question is "What was X thinking?" the answer is almost guaranteed to be "They weren't!", so I'm going to say that's the answer here as well.

[Morquard]

7) Loki doesn't actually like his own daughter all that much, and was deliberately trying to weaken her/force her to change her ways. She does seem a bit for the evulz, whereas Loki seems to actually have more affection for the people of the planet and the sanctity of life in general.

While it seems that way that she's "for the evulz" Thor also said that she's "more messed up this time around" because of the lack of fresh worship. So she might have been less evil before.

[Goblin_Priest]

Why did the chicken cross the road?

[Dion]

Why did the chicken cross the road?

If the chicken is Loki, then she did it for the lulz.