You're a mid-level low-OP wizard hosting a magical auction in a pocket dimension.

[Jarmen4u]

Inside the pocket is a small palace with a full compliment of golem guards and servants. In attendance is a small group of adventurers (level 4). What kind of defenses/encounter would you have to stop them from stealing your items? One of the items is a raven stolen from the party sorcerer, which is why they're here. The prize item is a live mermaid, which they decided to also steal. Thoughts/ideas?

[noob]

Inside the pocket is a small palace with a full compliment of golem guards and servants. In attendance is a small group of adventurers (level 4). What kind of defenses/encounter would you have to stop them from stealing your items? One of the items is a raven stolen from the party sorcerer, which is why they're here. The prize item is a live mermaid, which they decided to also steal. Thoughts/ideas?

Probably put all the people entering(after you dispel any magic on them and make them dispose of their magic items) under the suggestion spell "you will not try to liberate any property during your stay" at the entrance with guards and wards.(the entrance door is one square wide.) and make people go and leave the door until they are controlled.(tell them it is for not having any thief maybe?) or cast guard and wards 50 times in order for the people to need 50 saves.
If someone comes from any entrance other than the main entrance then harass it constantly with swarms of guards or whatever(to drain them of resources) and try to corner that person.(the guard and wards spam means the adventurers will be unable to see much while the followers of the wizard will see everything and progress unimpeded)

And/or you just go all "windpunk" and have automated defense systems based on windy corridors that triggers mechanisms that does calculations and move around parts of the palace to crush people or trigger traps or even flood some corridors with lava.
Note that if you go all windpunk your campaign setting might never recover.

[Jarmen4u]

Probably put all the people entering(after you dispel any magic on them and make them dispose of their magic items) under the suggestion spell "you will not try to liberate any property during your stay" at the entrance with guards and wards.(the entrance door is one square wide.) and make people go and leave the door until they are controlled.(tell them it is for not having any thief maybe?) or cast guard and wards 50 times in order for the people to need 50 saves.
If someone comes from any entrance other than the main entrance then harass it constantly with swarms of guards or whatever(to drain them of resources) and try to corner that person.(the guard and wards spam means the adventurers will be unable to see much while the followers of the wizard will see everything and progress unimpeded)

And/or you just go all "windpunk" and have automated defense systems based on windy corridors that triggers mechanisms that does calculations and move around parts of the palace to crush people or trigger traps or even flood some corridors with lava.
Note that if you go all windpunk your campaign setting might never recover.

It's not too far off, it's set in Eberron. I'd like for them to, at a minimum, recover the stolen familiar, but beyond that, a relatively hostile environment is what I'm looking for. They're still only level 4 or so, and most of them are new to D&D, so I'm not looking to kill em (unless they're dumb).

[BowStreetRunner]

Make everyone wishing to attend the auction accept a Lesser Geas or Geas requiring them not to steal anything while at the auction.

[smasher0404]

One idea would be to not have the items actually be on site. Instead, well-made forgeries are showcased, and when the purchased is made, the purchasing party goes to a secondary secure location to pick up their items. Therefore, if the party decides to storm the auction house by force, they'll end up not stealing the items they were after but rather the forgeries made to show to the bidders.

[BowStreetRunner]

One idea would be to not have the items actually be on site. Instead, well-made forgeries are showcased, and when the purchased is made, the purchasing party goes to a secondary secure location to pick up their items. Therefore, if the party decides to storm the auction house by force, they'll end up not stealing the items they were after but rather the forgeries made to show to the bidders.Since two of the items are living creatures, forgeries might need to be replaced by illusions.

[Malroth]

Since two of the items are living creatures, forgeries might need to be replaced by illusions.
Or a scrying pool showing them in real time but not on site.

[Jarmen4u]

I think the point is being missed; the adventurers are already on-site with intentions to steal back their familiar. I'm hoping to make an encounter for a 4th level party of mostly new-to-D&D players. I'm not looking for a high-OP answer, just something that would give them a challenge (but still have a chance to win). Maybe I'm not great at optimizing, but I don't know how a 4th-level party comprised of a sorcerer, fighter, druid, and rogue could succeed given the types of suggestions given here.

Also, since the raven is a familiar, the sorcerer has already made a mental connection with it, thereby verifying its authenticity. It'd be difficult to retcon that occurrence.

[Quertus]

... well, IMO, the problem is that you want something particular. Ignore that desire, and focus on building a realistic (low OP) Wizard's defenses.

The easiest answer is, he's everyone's ride home. Sure, you can steal stuff... But how are you getting off-plane afterwards?

I'm a big fan of Mindrape (and Suggestion and Geas) style solutions.

And you feel like this Wizard would, for whatever reason, have environmental traps, on top of a gazillion golems?

So, add all that.

Then ask, how can you make this fun for the party?

The easy answer is, one of the guests is not what he appears, and offers to help the party - perhaps for his own amusement, perhaps because it furthers his agenda, or perhaps for a price.

He dispels the charms, and gives them what they need to get out (a scroll of Plane Shift, CL boost, reroll, whatever), warns them off the nature of at least some of the environmental traps, and leaves them to their own devices.

[zlefin]

a 4th level party should NOT be able to successfuly steal from a wizard capable of making and using a pocket dimension and that has its normal complement of appropriate defenses. unless it's a high op party facing a low op wizard (which is not the case here).

the only way they should have a chance is if another, better group of thieves makes an attempt, and they manage to get at some of the less valuable stuff during the chaos. (note it would only work for the less valuable stuff, the top prize stuff will be the most guarded).

also, why would anyone bother stealing a familiar? a stolen familiar wouldn't be worth much of anything except to its master.

[Jarmen4u]

... well, IMO, the problem is that you want something particular. Ignore that desire, and focus on building a realistic (low OP) Wizard's defenses.

The easiest answer is, he's everyone's ride home. Sure, you can steal stuff... But how are you getting off-plane afterwards?

I'm a big fan of Mindrape (and Suggestion and Geas) style solutions.

And you feel like this Wizard would, for whatever reason, have environmental traps, on top of a gazillion golems?

So, add all that.

Then ask, how can you make this fun for the party?

The easy answer is, one of the guests is not what he appears, and offers to help the party - perhaps for his own amusement, perhaps because it furthers his agenda, or perhaps for a price.

He dispels the charms, and gives them what they need to get out (a scroll of Plane Shift, CL boost, reroll, whatever), warns them off the nature of at least some of the environmental traps, and leaves them to their own devices.

Some good information here. Thanks.


also, why would anyone bother stealing a familiar? a stolen familiar wouldn't be worth much of anything except to its master.

Well the person who stole it wasn't a wizard himself, but he knew that a familiar is a magical creature, and following that, could be useful for something, or just worth buying. Most of the items at the auction were brought by some of the guests to sell to the larger audience of buyers. (Also is why there aren't forgeries of the items; they were brought into the palace by the sellers)

[zlefin]

why can't the party just complain to the management about the fact that it's stolen and ask for it back?
that it's a familiar should be easy to prove; and as matter of policy, I'd suspect they try to avoid openly auctioning off stolen goods when the rightful owners are present.

also, I'd suspect they dislike stealing wizards' familiars.

[icefractal]

Potential way for the party to get off-plane once they do steal the items: climb inside a bag of holding and rip it. Pretty hard to block unless you block extradimensional storage, and the buyers are unlikely to put up with that.

Which is where some of the defenses in this thread fall apart. Imagine you're a mid-level Wizard. One of your acquaintances (but not a close friend) says he's holding an auction, but to get it you need to show up with no items or spells on you, be unable to leave, and let him cast spells like Geas or Mindrape on you. Is your answer:
A) Sure, sign me up.
B) Hahahaha. No.

[Quertus]

Imagine you're a mid-level Wizard. One of your acquaintances (but not a close friend) says he's holding an auction, but to get it you need to show up with no items or spells on you, be unable to leave, and let him cast spells like Geas or Mindrape on you. Is your answer:
A) Sure, sign me up.
B) Hahahaha. No.

Lol. When you put it like that... I suppose it depends on whether I get to choose to make the save before or after they word the Suggestion...

But the "no way to leave" was directed at the party, not at the Wizard. That is, I hadn't considered the Wizard mandating that people cannot leave; rather, that leaving (without the Wizard's aid) is a significant impediment for the party (and most other would-be thieves) to overcome. The Wizard knows that most of his guests are reliant on him to leave (and probably watches the others more closely).

[Vizzerdrix]

Keep the items in another location. Auctions are done with accurate illusions and scrying on the items.

[rel]

Ah, the low OP wizard. Such a strange beast.

Lets get into the right mindset first:

'If I were to become a lich I would proudly display my phylactery about my neck so all would be cowed by my awesome!'

'Casting spells every morning seems boring and leaves less room for fireballs. Pass! If there is a spell effect on me you can bet it was cast after initiative was rolled.'

'weapons and armor are the hallmarks of fighters. I wear a robe and carry a wand. Threatened squares are fighters I have recently ranted at.'

Alright suitably in character. Lets get started.

A stout door can go a long way to keeping things safe. I can't pick locks and if I can't, how could a rogue! If you are extra worried try Arcane Lock, guaranteed lockpick proof!

Next are the mundane traps. They are expensive and annoying so you can't go overboard but I know a secret, phantom trap! Make things look trapped which should scare the thieves off. a few extra traps free of charge. You could even cast fire trap once to really mess with the thieves but its expensive so maybe not.

A solid defense is an alarm spell. Thieves can't see it or sneak past it at all. No matter how good at searching or hiding they are. And when the bell sounds my guards know to come running.

It was difficult but I got a scroll of guards and wards for the auction. This spell was DESIGNED to keep your stronghold safe. Between the webs, fogs, arcane locks and illusions the thieves will never manage to get past my guards by sneaking through the empty servants quarters.

I got paranoid last night so I removed the stairs to the rear tower. I can fly but I don't think thieves can!

As a final trick I cast faithful hound to guard the ventilation shaft into the treasure room. Not only does it make noise but when a thief tries to get past it'll bite him. If I'm lucky he might even fall off the rope he was using to climb down!

And that should cover everything. My defenses are SO good I'm going to spend the time before the auction on an entirely different plane. Sure it means my guards have no way of contacting me and there is zero chance of me being able to help if something goes wrong but that's okay because nothing will and besides, I need to practice my dramatic poses.

[icefractal]

Ah, the low OP wizard. Such a strange beast.

Lets get into the right mindset first:

...Lol; surprisingly accurate for many opponent mages in modules.

I think that low-OP optimization can be an interesting challenge though. If we assume:
1) No extra spell recharge, any buffs or divinations are coming out of your daily supply.
2) No way to ignore material components, finite wealth.
3) No access to higher-level spells than what you can cast, except by scrolls that consume your finite wealth.
4) Planar bound creatures do have to be paid and aren't under total control.
5) Because of #3, the pocket dimension was presumably found / bought, so no ability to set custom properties.

Then at, say, L11, there's a fair number of defenses that can be used, but not just "all of them at once".

Probably one of the most effective would be "none of the items are really there, just illusions", but there is a reason the Wizard in question might not do that. If he only has the single pocket dimension, and no other spot with better defenses, then storing them there, where he can personally guard them, could be safer than sticking them in a cave or bank vault on the material plane.

[Hackulator]

I always find the high-OP wizard a much stranger beast from an RP perspective.

"I have somehow managed to get my hands on all the D&D sourcebooks!"

"I have no life or desires and it's cool to sometimes spend 20 hours a day casting spells or sleeping so I can cast more spells."

edit: oh I forgot "I have no exploitable personality flaws and hubris does not exist."

[rel]

And yet the bulk of the responses to this thread seem like high-OP solutions to me.

A rebellious bound monster seems like an interesting encounter. Stronger than the PC's but on their side in a way.
It's a great in game justification for an info dump or a puzzle encounter actually.
'boss told me to kill anyone but him that comes into this room. Go the other way. Here is what I know of his defences. I am forbidden from telling you the password to get past his magic barrier but listen to this Definitely Unrelated riddle...

[Oberron]

Alarm spell around where the items are sitting and a velvet rope(magic trap using animate rope set to trigger when the alarm spell is set off) are both low level options, Fire trap(with multiple castings) set on the chest containing items or cages.

Those are what I have top of my head for low-level (3rd level or less spells)

[Jarmen4u]

I always find the high-OP wizard a much stranger beast from an RP perspective.

"I have somehow managed to get my hands on all the D&D sourcebooks!"

"I have no life or desires and it's cool to sometimes spend 20 hours a day casting spells or sleeping so I can cast more spells."

edit: oh I forgot "I have no exploitable personality flaws and hubris does not exist."

I agree. I'm not asking for low-OP without a good reason, so I'm not sure that guy's attitude is justified. Everyone at the table except for one person is brand new to TTRPGs as a whole, so I'm not going to dump them headfirst into the Tippyverse.


And yet the bulk of the responses to this thread seem like high-OP solutions to me.

A rebellious bound monster seems like an interesting encounter. Stronger than the PC's but on their side in a way.
It's a great in game justification for an info dump or a puzzle encounter actually.
'boss told me to kill anyone but him that comes into this room. Go the other way. Here is what I know of his defences. I am forbidden from telling you the password to get past his magic barrier but listen to this Definitely Unrelated riddle...


Alarm spell around where the items are sitting and a velvet rope(magic trap using animate rope set to trigger when the alarm spell is set off) are both low level options, Fire trap(with multiple castings) set on the chest containing items or cages.

Those are what I have top of my head for low-level (3rd level or less spells)

I appreciate both of your responses, this is the kind of stuff I was looking for. Thanks for the suggestions!

[The Kool]

I think you ought to decide what level of spell he has access to, in addition to DM-fiat things like a bound monster. 3rd level? 4th level? 5th level? Ah, at 5th level we get into a whole new beast with Permanency. This is where you can start doing things like a Permanent Alarm, and you can have a Symbol of Sleep for the party to encounter, and Secret Chest for the small portable valuables. I might even recommend a scroll of Guards and Wards, since that's a level 6 spell and he can't quite cast it himself yet. It's worth noting that crafting magical traps doesn't even need the caster to have access to Permanency, so for example a Burning Hands trap can be crafted at level 1 for as little as 40 XP.

Consider illusions. Illusory Wall is a great way to cover up the hallway the wizard wants no one going down, and no one even gets a save until they look closer at it. Phantom Trap can provide a neat decoy, especially if phantom traps are everywhere to obscure the real ones (boy who cried wolf style). Mirage Arcana can create an interesting case where an empty warehouse appears to be something entirely different, like a bedroom wing.

[Troacctid]

Since this is Eberron, you have to consider that there's already well-established infrastructure in place for this. Anyone wealthy enough to be holding a magical auction in a pocket dimension should be wealthy enough to hire a security team from the dragonmarked houses. House Kundarak can provide basic warding to protect the items—perhaps a combination of glyph of warding and alarm. House Medani can use detect magic to ensure that all magic brought into the event is accounted for. House Sivis can arcane mark the items to make them more easily identifiable if stolen, and House Tharashk can track the items down.

There are also other organizations that might be tapped to help out. Perhaps the wizard has ties to the Boromar Clan, and they've provided a small team of criminal specialists to rig up traps and spot potential thieves. Perhaps the Inspired have taken an interest in one of the items at the auction, and manipulated the wizard into allowing them to handle some of the event's security with detect hostile intent.

[Mrark]

So if I understand: you are looking for a Caveau-not-so-Caveau, so that your PC's could actually be able to steal what they want, but not in an easy way. Right?

[Jarmen4u]

Since this is Eberron, you have to consider that there's already well-established infrastructure in place for this. Anyone wealthy enough to be holding a magical auction in a pocket dimension should be wealthy enough to hire a security team from the dragonmarked houses. House Kundarak can provide basic warding to protect the items—perhaps a combination of glyph of warding and alarm. House Medani can use detect magic to ensure that all magic brought into the event is accounted for. House Sivis can arcane mark the items to make them more easily identifiable if stolen, and House Tharashk can track the items down.

There are also other organizations that might be tapped to help out. Perhaps the wizard has ties to the Boromar Clan, and they've provided a small team of criminal specialists to rig up traps and spot potential thieves. Perhaps the Inspired have taken an interest in one of the items at the auction, and manipulated the wizard into allowing them to handle some of the event's security with detect hostile intent.

Always with the informed replies. I wish I weren't so new to the setting, or I'd be better at tying the houses into each subplot.


So if I understand: you are looking for a Caveau-not-so-Caveau, so that your PC's could actually be able to steal what they want, but not in an easy way. Right?

Yeah, that's the general idea. I had the sorcerer's familiar get stolen as part of a side-arc while one player was unable to attend, but it evolved into a massive event. However, as everyone knows, there are terrible penalties for losing your familiar, so I want to avoid that if possible; though I want to avoid just handing it back to them, as some challenge is to be expected.

[noob]

Always with the informed replies. I wish I weren't so new to the setting, or I'd be better at tying the houses into each subplot.



Yeah, that's the general idea. I had the sorcerer's familiar get stolen as part of a side-arc while one player was unable to attend, but it evolved into a massive event. However, as everyone knows, there are terrible penalties for losing your familiar, so I want to avoid that if possible; though I want to avoid just handing it back to them, as some challenge is to be expected.

Is it pf or 3.5?
In pathfinder if you lose your familiar you can gain a new one later(after some waiting time) and the previous one does not even clearly stops being your familiar
So the sorcerer could just wait to have scry on familiar and a new familiar and then go and retrieve his old familiar and have 2 familiars thus possibly doubling the amount of "retrieve familiar" quests.

[Jarmen4u]

Is it pf or 3.5?
In pathfinder if you lose your familiar you can gain a new one later(after some waiting time) and the previous one does not even clearly stops being your familiar
So the sorcerer could just wait to have scry on familiar and a new familiar and then go and retrieve his old familiar and have 2 familiars thus possibly doubling the amount of "retrieve familiar" quests.

3.5e, so none of those nice rules are in play.