W:DH Manshoon Question

[Vogie]

Spoilers, Obviously
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So, Manshoon is one of the 4 BBEGs from Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. While a CR 13 BBEG in a campaign that ends at level 5 seems like a terrible idea, the thing the party actually fights is his CR 8 simulacrum. We're given:

the stats of the actual Manshoon, with the Staff of Power and Robe of the Archmagi included. (AC 18)
the fact that he's using a custom simulacrum spell that increases the hit points of the Simulacrum at the cost of spellcasting ability. No 6th+ level spells, same amount of hit points.
Also, the Simulacrum does NOT have special equipment, they'd have no Magic Resistance, no "Staff of Power" attack action. Also, AC of 12.

However, it doesn't change any of the Spellcasting or saving throws.

Now, the items provide

This staff can be wielded as a magic Quarterstaff that grants a +2 bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls made with it. While holding it, you gain a +2 bonus to Armor Class, Saving Throws, and spell Attack rolls.
And the robe gives:

Your spell save DC and spell Attack bonus each increase by 2.

So, while the game would give him:

10 (0) 14 (+2) 12 (+1) 23 (+6) 15 (+2) 16 (+3)
Saving Throws: Str +2, Dex +4, Con +3, Int +13, Wis +9, Cha +5
Spellcasting. ~ is an 18th level caster, Intelligence, (Spell Save DC 21, +15 to hit).


The information should instead be

10 (0) 14 (+2) 12 (+1) 23 (+6) 15 (+2) 16 (+3)
Saving Throws Str +0, Dex +2, Con +1, Int +11, Wis +7, Cha +3
Spellcasting. ~ is an 18th level caster, Intelligence, (Spell Save DC 17, +11 to hit).

Right?? I'm just double checking my math here.

[Griswold]

Right?? I'm just double checking my math here.

I double-checked your numbers, and I think you've got it almost right:

The robe increases his spell save DC and his spell attacks by +2.
The staff increases his spell attacks by +2.

So without them, his spell save DC should only drop by 2 (to 19) (so I disagree here)
And his spell attacks should indeed drop by 4 (to +11).

...of course, now you'll have to double-check my math.

[Foxhound438]

I double-checked your numbers, and I think you've got it almost right:

The robe increases his spell save DC and his spell attacks by +2.
The staff increases his spell attacks by +2.

So without them, his spell save DC should only drop by 2 (to 19) (so I disagree here)
And his spell attacks should indeed drop by 4 (to +11).

...of course, now you'll have to double-check my math.

note that having a lower CR as a monster reduces its proficiency, so the DC should by my count be 17 as OP calculated, and attack bonus should be +9 unless there's something I'm missing that gives a bonus to his spell attacks; I'm not sure how they get +15 to his attacks to start. Edit: the staff and the robe each give +2 to spell attacks, so it's definitely down all the way to +9

Still, this could be pretty brutal, so remember that even though you're focusing the story on one BBEG others are still after the haul and might cause trouble for manshoon's simulacrum and force him to use some spells, and even without them the waterdevian lords might send some backup that can eat some of those dangerous 5th level spells.

[Griswold]

I went back and looked at what the text says exactly again, and I think all of us are wrong.


Each simulacrum has the statistics of Manshoon, with these changes:

The simulacrum has no special equipment. Consequently, it has AC 12 and lacks the Magic Resistance trait and the Staff of Power action option.
It loses all spell slots of 6th level and higher.
It has a challenge rating of 8 (3,900 XP).



I think you just do exactly what it says. Get rid of his spell slots, drop his AC, magic resistance, and staff of power options. This then lowers his challenge rating.

Is this overly simplistic and ignoring all of the fiddly math? Yes. But if the authors were concerned about all of the fiddly math, they'd just print another stat block for the simulacrum.