Successors to Pathfinder

[exelsisxax]

What 3.PF fork projects are in development? I'm looking to jump ship now that my own is slowly sinking. The only big one I can think of is purple duck games' PF 1.2, which is less of a fork and more of a re-release with different classes.

Let's also discriminate between mechanical successors, the 3.875-likes, that are basically just homebrew 3.5, and spiritual successors, which might be classless XP-buy with no levels but still let you do the range of things 3.PF could permit.

[khadgar567]

the only variant I see is porhypra setting and its basically new coat of paint in an inferior copy of one great game no class gave enough oomph and to be frank I continue with the second edition rather than try to sail with log raft in the storm. I don't try to sell pathfinder second edition but it feels greatly improved from two failures of the wizard of the coast

[Morty]

Can't you just keep on playing with the mountain of material that has been released for PF? People left behind by new editions have kept on playing with less.

[exelsisxax]

Can't you just keep on playing with the mountain of material that has been released for PF? People left behind by new editions have kept on playing with less.

The amount of material is the gold hidden in the mess, so i've always been looking for a new game that can have the options without the insane bloat and weight. But I have no local gaming, and i've already seen a downturn in online play, which is all i've got for now. It doesn't matter if the game is playable forever if i can't play it.

I expect that numerous groups will try to take advantage of this opportunity with a new game, and maybe one of them will be a major upgrade.

[ezekielraiden]

In a meaningful sense, 3rd edition is nearly 20 years old. The bloat/cruft of which you speak will appear nearly anywhere the system gets re-instantiated. It's weighed down as much by the faults of the very first book as it is by the most recent (in some ways more, hence PF2e).

Maybe it's time to move on? Try something actually different, rather than continually flensing the same necrotic equine. If you're constantly wanting to move on in order to sift a tiny amount of wheat from a vast amount of chaff, exposing yourself to something genuinely outside your usual fare can give you a lot of fresh perspective, maybe even reveal the goals you're striving for but not quite able to articulate.

I say most of this from personal experience; I used to be a 3.5e only kind of guy, not realizing that my vague sense of dissatisfaction was not because I hadn't found the bits of it to make it great but because the system itself was fighting against what I wanted at the time. Playing other systems--DW, 4e, Labyrinth Lord, DotV, a dab of Shadowrun and Exalted, a glance at Savage Worlds--has hugely helped me understand what I actually *want* from my games, stuff I was simply not aware of beforehand despite the preferences themselves not changing a bit.

I guess what I'm saying is, before you start looking for "Pathfinder continued," it might help you for narrowing down what specifically you *want* to continue by giving a shot at other things. Unless you already have, of course, in which case I fear I have little to offer you.

[Morty]

There's also the fact that any potential candidates to continue the 3.5/PF brand is very unlikely to make major upgrades, because they'd require changes that would drive away potential customers by not being D&D enough anymore. Though if the Purple Duck Games' version, which I know nothing about, is using different classes, they're already going further than most of the potential customer base is willing to swallow.

[exelsisxax]

In a meaningful sense, 3rd edition is nearly 20 years old. The bloat/cruft of which you speak will appear nearly anywhere the system gets re-instantiated. It's weighed down as much by the faults of the very first book as it is by the most recent (in some ways more, hence PF2e).

Maybe it's time to move on? Try something actually different, rather than continually flensing the same necrotic equine. If you're constantly wanting to move on in order to sift a tiny amount of wheat from a vast amount of chaff, exposing yourself to something genuinely outside your usual fare can give you a lot of fresh perspective, maybe even reveal the goals you're striving for but not quite able to articulate.

I say most of this from personal experience; I used to be a 3.5e only kind of guy, not realizing that my vague sense of dissatisfaction was not because I hadn't found the bits of it to make it great but because the system itself was fighting against what I wanted at the time. Playing other systems--DW, 4e, Labyrinth Lord, DotV, a dab of Shadowrun and Exalted, a glance at Savage Worlds--has hugely helped me understand what I actually *want* from my games, stuff I was simply not aware of beforehand despite the preferences themselves not changing a bit.

I guess what I'm saying is, before you start looking for "Pathfinder continued," it might help you for narrowing down what specifically you *want* to continue by giving a shot at other things. Unless you already have, of course, in which case I fear I have little to offer you.

I would indeed prefer a truly new game rather than a 3.5->PF nearly identical game. That's why I talked about the theoretical successor that dropped classes and levels. I want the "any fantasy concept you can think of", i'm not wedded to BaB and getting feats every few levels. I am aware that the base system of 3.PF has a ton of inefficiencies and nonsense.

[ezekielraiden]

I would indeed prefer a truly new game rather than a 3.5->PF nearly identical game. That's why I talked about the theoretical successor that dropped classes and levels. I want the "any fantasy concept you can think of", i'm not wedded to BaB and getting feats every few levels. I am aware that the base system of 3.PF has a ton of inefficiencies and nonsense.

Well, if you're still into crunchy stuff, Savage Worlds, Shadowrun, and 4th edition are all valid directions to consider. 4e is quite nice now because the books' prices, while variable, usually fall to the sub-$20 range on the regular. Savage Worlds is more in the GURPS direction, being more a toolbox than having levels at all, but it can capture a huge swathe of things. I haven't actually played Shadowrun 5e, but I've discussed it with people who have and they seemed to like it (the Harebrained games are not quite the system proper as I understand it.)

Alternatively, you could see if you can find a Dungeon World game. It's heavily designed for relatively quick play, but it's a very low-crunch system, which can feel....confining if you're used to flexibility. I like DMing it because it's sufficiently flexible that I can do most anything I like with it, but as a player you kinda have to start tinkering if you want much crunch (or pick up supplements; the Grim World supplement is excellent for class content, though I don't much care for its fluff 'cause I'm not really into horror).

There's also Dogs in the Vineyard, but that's probably going to be harder to find a game for. It's a fun and super super flexible system, but very niche even for a non-D&D-based TTRPG product. It's also...about as far as you can get from D&D, much more similar to Fate (which is another option, and one that might be easier to find a group for too.)

So yeah. If you want to make a small step, consider 4e--it iterated more in the direction of the Book of Nine Swords than Pathfinder did, and (as I'm sure you've heard) is very well-balanced. "Bloat" in 4e is more "lots of options that are middling," and if you're familiar with PF's rules the shift to 4e's will be relatively small. If you want an intermediate-level change, Savage Worlds or Shadowrun will probably be your speed. Dungeon World will *feel* familiar but *be* pretty different. If you want to go far afield, pretty much any other PbtA game (Powered by the Apocalypse--the system-family to which DW belongs) will do, or you can look into Dogs in the Vineyard or Fate.

[Rynjin]

I would indeed prefer a truly new game rather than a 3.5->PF nearly identical game. That's why I talked about the theoretical successor that dropped classes and levels. I want the "any fantasy concept you can think of", i'm not wedded to BaB and getting feats every few levels. I am aware that the base system of 3.PF has a ton of inefficiencies and nonsense.

I mean, this could be anything, really.

Savage Worlds is my new go-to system for games. Still play a lot of Pathfinder, and use SW mostly for modern/post-apocalyptic games, but it works just as well for fantasy.

For one not already mentioned: Godbound is a really neato class-less system that has a "sky's the limit" attitude on what characters can do.

[exelsisxax]

Well, if you're still into crunchy stuff, Savage Worlds, Shadowrun, and 4th edition are all valid directions to consider. 4e is quite nice now because the books' prices, while variable, usually fall to the sub-$20 range on the regular. Savage Worlds is more in the GURPS direction, being more a toolbox than having levels at all, but it can capture a huge swathe of things. I haven't actually played Shadowrun 5e, but I've discussed it with people who have and they seemed to like it (the Harebrained games are not quite the system proper as I understand it.)

Alternatively, you could see if you can find a Dungeon World game. It's heavily designed for relatively quick play, but it's a very low-crunch system, which can feel....confining if you're used to flexibility. I like DMing it because it's sufficiently flexible that I can do most anything I like with it, but as a player you kinda have to start tinkering if you want much crunch (or pick up supplements; the Grim World supplement is excellent for class content, though I don't much care for its fluff 'cause I'm not really into horror).

There's also Dogs in the Vineyard, but that's probably going to be harder to find a game for. It's a fun and super super flexible system, but very niche even for a non-D&D-based TTRPG product. It's also...about as far as you can get from D&D, much more similar to Fate (which is another option, and one that might be easier to find a group for too.)

So yeah. If you want to make a small step, consider 4e--it iterated more in the direction of the Book of Nine Swords than Pathfinder did, and (as I'm sure you've heard) is very well-balanced. "Bloat" in 4e is more "lots of options that are middling," and if you're familiar with PF's rules the shift to 4e's will be relatively small. If you want an intermediate-level change, Savage Worlds or Shadowrun will probably be your speed. Dungeon World will *feel* familiar but *be* pretty different. If you want to go far afield, pretty much any other PbtA game (Powered by the Apocalypse--the system-family to which DW belongs) will do, or you can look into Dogs in the Vineyard or Fate.

4e doesn't fix anything, it'd just be a sidegrade into a more board gamey style that figured out some balance considerations - but i'm not leaving my sinking boat for a dead system. SW just felt like a chore to me, not really sure how to describe it. Like the whole system was a rube goldberg device for inevitable victory once you figure out how bennies work with everything. DW, and PbtA games are basically the exact opposite of what i'm looking for. There isn't any content or meaningful customization.

I'll look into shadowrun. I was always put off by the 40+ dice and decker problem of older versions, maybe the new is worth a read.


I mean, this could be anything, really.

Savage Worlds is my new go-to system for games. Still play a lot of Pathfinder, and use SW mostly for modern/post-apocalyptic games, but it works just as well for fantasy.

For one not already mentioned: Godbound is a really neato class-less system that has a "sky's the limit" attitude on what characters can do.

I just read a blurb for godbound that made it seem like you're hercules personally holding shut the gates of hades while monsters try to kill you. More insane than my usual fare, but my interest is piqued. What have your experiences with it been?

[Crake]

It's worth noting that based on what you've laid out, it's highly unlikely anything will meet your standards. You want a mechanical system with a wealth of options but without a bunch of bloat, which means that all the options in the system must be at least roughly equally balanced, which is an incredibly hard feat to do, and, as noted in the 3.5 balance thread, not necessarily condusive to a highly flexible game either way. At the same time you want a relatively new system, which is counter-productive with the notion of having a wealth of options, as a new system will invariably have less options.

The only reason pathfinder did so well was because it allowed for the backporting of 3.5 material, taking advantage of the abundant available content of it's predecessor until it had enough content of it's own that people felt comfortable enough playing PF on it's own. If people want to make a new system, they will need to keep that in mind, as no system is going to be able to start with anything close to what 3.5/pf have available.

The other side of the spectrum however, is playing a much more rule's light system, which allows you to make whatever you want not through sheer mechanics, but in fact through lack of mechanics, making the few existing mechanics much more widely appliccable. Fate, d6, numenera/cypher are all decent-ish options for such a game, but you may feel dissatisfied with them if you're looking for the crunchy, meaty experience that is 3.5.

[Jorunkun]

Porphyra (sp?) by Purple Duck is the only announced PF re-tread by a major publisher. Spheres of Magic/Might is the only major built-on PF branch off AFAIK.

If you want 3.X as the basis, you could go with a homebrew like Kirthfinder, or the 3.x homebrews found on this forum. Or take a look at Fantasy Craft or Shadow of the Demon Lord; they don't continue the PF line but are built on 3rd edition, arguably.

Me, I wish someone would do a revised core edition of PF as a E/P6 game, taking into account some of the unchained changes and errata. Nothing fancy, just a nice, cleaned up version of 3rd edition, like Rules Compendium was to BECMI, if you know what I mean.

[khadgar567]

Porphyra (sp?) by Purple Duck is the only announced PF re-tread by a major publisher. Spheres of Magic/Might is the only major built-on PF branch off AFAIK.

If you want 3.X as the basis, you could go with a homebrew like Kirthfinder, or the 3.x homebrews found on this forum. Or take a look at Fantasy Craft or Shadow of the Demon Lord; they don't continue the PF line but are built on 3rd edition, arguably.

Me, I wish someone would do a revised core edition of PF as a E/P6 game, taking into account some of the unchained changes and errata. Nothing fancy, just a nice, cleaned up version of 3rd edition, like Rules Compendium was to BECMI, if you know what I mean.only thing I wish Paizo done before the second edition was unchained wizard turning wizard class back to its book roots but hey man can hope. six spells with nearly no native skills perfect match to fighters power and dream that every sorcerer hates.

[exelsisxax]

It's worth noting that based on what you've laid out, it's highly unlikely anything will meet your standards. You want a mechanical system with a wealth of options but without a bunch of bloat, which means that all the options in the system must be at least roughly equally balanced, which is an incredibly hard feat to do, and, as noted in the 3.5 balance thread, not necessarily condusive to a highly flexible game either way. At the same time you want a relatively new system, which is counter-productive with the notion of having a wealth of options, as a new system will invariably have less options.

The only reason pathfinder did so well was because it allowed for the backporting of 3.5 material, taking advantage of the abundant available content of it's predecessor until it had enough content of it's own that people felt comfortable enough playing PF on it's own. If people want to make a new system, they will need to keep that in mind, as no system is going to be able to start with anything close to what 3.5/pf have available.

The other side of the spectrum however, is playing a much more rule's light system, which allows you to make whatever you want not through sheer mechanics, but in fact through lack of mechanics, making the few existing mechanics much more widely appliccable. Fate, d6, numenera/cypher are all decent-ish options for such a game, but you may feel dissatisfied with them if you're looking for the crunchy, meaty experience that is 3.5.

Yeah, i'm pretty sure nothing has been released that would really satisfy me. But with PF1 on life support people are looking to move into the niche. Projects in development are probably the likely contenders, but it looks like nobody has any more information on possible ongoing designs than I do.

[Particle_Man]

At least pathfinder put more out there on their srd than 3.5 did for its one. It leaves room for someone to try something. We shall see if anything good comes of it.

[Ignimortis]

I'll look into shadowrun. I was always put off by the 40+ dice and decker problem of older versions, maybe the new is worth a read.

The decker problem (as in, the Matrix is a subgame that usually isn't much connected to what the other guys are doing) is mostly a DM problem these days. Automated dice rollers and people knowing what to roll cuts down on the "decker intermissions" quite a bit. 40+ dice stuff is still possible in SR 5e, but mostly for soak rolls for supertanks. Skills are usually from 10 to 20 dice if you're supposed to be good at them, and very few things go beyond 20 dice but soak.

[EldritchWeaver]

Spheres of Magic/Might is the only major built-on PF branch off AFAIK.

FWIW, there are 3PP employing SoP/SoM to base their own stuff on. Probably users of SoP/SoM are willing to switch to some kind of spherefinder, where more stuff is changed in base because some sacred cows have been slaughtered already.

[Pex]

Try the existing third party perhaps. Play a Dreamscarred Press campaign. Everyone is a Dreamscarred Press class.

[Particle_Man]

Everyone is a Dreamscarred Press class.

Even me? :smallsmile:

[Elricaltovilla]

Try the existing third party perhaps. Play a Dreamscarred Press campaign. Everyone is a Dreamscarred Press class.


Even me? :smallsmile:

What about me? :smalltongue:

[zlefin]

Porphyra (sp?) by Purple Duck is the only announced PF re-tread by a major publisher. Spheres of Magic/Might is the only major built-on PF branch off AFAIK.

If you want 3.X as the basis, you could go with a homebrew like Kirthfinder, or the 3.x homebrews found on this forum. Or take a look at Fantasy Craft or Shadow of the Demon Lord; they don't continue the PF line but are built on 3rd edition, arguably.

Me, I wish someone would do a revised core edition of PF as a E/P6 game, taking into account some of the unchained changes and errata. Nothing fancy, just a nice, cleaned up version of 3rd edition, like Rules Compendium was to BECMI, if you know what I mean.

why not make up such a revised core edition yourself?

do none of this forums' homebrews come close to what you want?



re: op
I wonder how many people are interested in classless versions. there's definitely a few classless homebrews around, but nothing beyond that I've heard of.
ofc, classless isn't always all its cracked up to be; often people just build towards a few best build areas in classless systems.

[2D8HP]

What 3.PF fork projects are in development? I'm looking to jump ship now that my own is slowly sinking. The only big one I can think of is purple duck games' PF 1.2, which is less of a fork and more of a re-release with different classes.

Let's also discriminate between mechanical successors, the 3.875-likes, that are basically just homebrew 3.5, and spiritual successors, which might be classless XP-buy with no levels but still let you do the range of things 3.PF could permit.


I would indeed prefer a truly new game rather than a 3.5->PF nearly identical game. That's why I talked about the theoretical successor that dropped classes and levels. I want the "any fantasy concept you can think of", i'm not wedded to BaB and getting feats every few levels. I am aware that the base system of 3.PF has a ton of inefficiencies and nonsense.


I assume that you must want something still close to Pathfinder instead of any of the thousands of Fantasy Role Playing games that don't use D&D-ish Classes and Levels that have been avalible at least since RuneQuest (which is AWESOME!) came out since 1978?

Mutants & Masterminds with the Fantasy supplement probably fits the bill.

You could also try Fantasy HERO or GURPS Dungeon Fantasy among the thousands that are available.

[JMS]

What about me? :smalltongue:

Some build of El’s Utterdark Shield and Brutal Slayer Stalker? You have plenty of stuff

[exelsisxax]

FWIW, there are 3PP employing SoP/SoM to base their own stuff on. Probably users of SoP/SoM are willing to switch to some kind of spherefinder, where more stuff is changed in base because some sacred cows have been slaughtered already.


Try the existing third party perhaps. Play a Dreamscarred Press campaign. Everyone is a Dreamscarred Press class.

3pp is probably the only reason i'm still on pathfinder. Spheres, psionics, PoW, and akashic mysteries are all just so awesome. If DDS comes out with Spherefinder or DSP with something of their own i'll board those trains. But i've heard not even a hint that they are working on full systems.

[Elricaltovilla]

3pp is probably the only reason i'm still on pathfinder. Spheres, psionics, PoW, and akashic mysteries are all just so awesome. If DDS comes out with Spherefinder or DSP with something of their own i'll board those trains. But i've heard not even a hint that they are working on full systems.

I mean for a while there Lord_Gareth was working on a fantasy system based on Mutants and Masterminds and inspired a bit by Exalted and similar game settings. I don't know what became of it though.

Before I started writing for DSP I was working on a d20 "Maneuvers for Everyone" system. Then once I started it I toyed with doing an OGL version of 4e. Later I tried my hand at a d% system that was mostly classless and made it to alpha testing before I had to abandon it due to personal issues. And this thread made me go write a fighter revision and set up the baseline for a much more faithful adaptation of the d20 system as a Pathfinder continuation.

But every time I take a crack at writing my own system, I just find myself wondering why bother? I don't have the money, reputation, clout or personality to make it successful and the market is pretty well saturated with other games. I know Fantasy Flight games is working on a Legend of the 5 Rings RPG since they picked up that IP, and they have a fantasy setting based off of their dice system that was used in Star Wars Edge of the Empire (which I have not checked out but I love the mechanics of that dice system). My point is, there's a million options out there. The market is pretty well flooded, but very few companies have the capital to put out a niche game like this and pay to get its name spread around.

[exelsisxax]

I don't think it's niche, though. 5e has proven that RPGs are not a super niche product, and there is no reason that a new game can't eclipse 5e.

You don't need to lose any meaningful content in order to have a game of similar lightness to 5e. There is nothing at all that is necessarily preventing a game from fully capturing both surface-level roleplayers and hardcore tactical players and chargen addicts.(actually getting them away from 5e is a different thing)

For instance, SoP has more content than the entirety of 5e and is also simpler. The range and depth of possible characters is far greater and there's no one-off rules that 5e is assembled from. An entire game could be made like that, with an open system rather than a hierarchy of silos that can't do anything that doesn't have a subclass designed to do it.

[Rynjin]

I just read a blurb for godbound that made it seem like you're hercules personally holding shut the gates of hades while monsters try to kill you. More insane than my usual fare, but my interest is piqued. What have your experiences with it been?

I have made two characters for Godbound, and played one.

The one I played was Khatef, the Beggar God, a not-Egyptian man that was born sickly, suckered into a gambling scheme for local organized crime, and had one of his hands cut off as punishment for cheating. He awoke to the Words of Deception, Death, and Knowledge, able to move unseen and tell lies even the most skeptical person would believe (the latter is a passive ability ALL Deception Word characters have; only another Deceiver can see through your lies), kill people with just a glance, and know anything that was not kept secret by a hero or Godbound with similar powers.

The second was a more standard character; basically a viking with the Sword, Endurance, and Water words who grew old but was returned to the prime of his life by his Words and went a-raiding again.

Every single Godbound has the ability to casually demolish scrubs (in combat they're called "Fray Dice", you just as a NON-ACTION deal undodgeable, unresistable damage to any nameless peons that catch your ire), and has often unilateral abilities within their chosen spheres of influence. Most Word abilities simply WORK against anyone who is not another Godbound or very powerful mortal hero, like the aforementioned "I could tell you the sky is green and you would believe me unless incontrovertible proof was given to you otherwise" ability of Deception, or the Sword Word's even greater increased combat efficacy over normal Godbound (Fray dice general only hit one or two guys a round, so fighting a mob still takes time, if not effort for most Godbound; Sword Godbound on the other hand can get an ability that basically lets them stroll through a mortal army and unilaterally kill everything in heir path with no dice rolled until they're confronted by another Godbound or Odysseus-adjacent mortal).

It is a very different kind of game, and scratches a very specific kind of itch for a game where you can just chill out, roleplay, and just DO things with your abilities without worrying too much about resources or for example your Enchantment specialized Sorcerer failing to Charm the nameless bouncer at the door to let him into the club and being annoyed.

The number of stories you can tell is also quite wide, and characters can feel freed to have very different, even completely non-combat focused specialties and still be effective and useful in the game. There are even rules for playing mortals, and while you obviously would never approach the raw strength of even the least Godbound, there are a surprising number of options there too, especially if you're able to ascend a little later.

In short: it's a very fun system, and while it wouldn't ever be my new go-to game to play, it is very fun and worth a shot every now and then.

[Morty]

5E is hugely popular because of its brand. No other publisher can even match the WotC's marketing, which is still a blip on the radar compared to Magic: the Gathering. Any such "new Pathfinder" would struggle to get noticed like other games, and it wouldn't even have the benefit of familiarity - because many 3E/PF fans will simply ignore any system that doesn't look similar enough, even if it's flat out better.

[Arutema]

What 3.PF fork projects are in development?....

Starfinder is the biggest one i can think of, though the change in setting to futuristic science fantasy isn't for everyone.