[PF1.0] How to spice up a fighter build?

[genderlich]

So I'm getting bored with my character. It's been about 10 sessions and my level 6 half-orc fighter is kinda falling flat. Not only am I outperformed in combat by the rest of the party, but the roleplaying is not good either. I wrote this great big backstory that I love, but the main motivation I gave her just isn't relevant to most roleplaying situations, so she kinda just becomes "an orc fighter" in roleplaying encounters. She has a personality, but no "hook"; all the other characters have their own unique angles in roleplaying that are helped by their more outlandish races and builds, while I am kind of generic. I brought up these concerns to my GM, and he said I could retrain my build and retcon some of my backstory to help me have more fun with my character instead of switching entirely.

Right now I am kind of a generic two-weapon fighter with some of the Dazzling Display line of feats. I'm always gonna be outdamaged by the ranger and vivisectionist, so I'm not looking to raise my DPS, but I need more to do in combat to have fun. I do want to stay a melee character and keep at least Two-Weapon Fighting as a feat because my pair of longswords are backstory-relevant, but I'm open to changing my class and anything else except my race. I don't really want to "be a spellcaster" but I'd like to pick up a few more supernatural abilities that give me both more options in combat and a bit of extra uniqueness for roleplaying. Then I can adjust my motivations and personality around my new abilities. 3pp is allowed (we are heavily using stuff from Kobold Press, Legendary Games, Everyman Games, Radiance House, and Dreamscarred Press minus Path of War). I was initially an iron caster, but we found out that the fighter fix we were using (Unchained Fighter) wrote that out of existence, so I get to retrain for free. My ability scores are Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 8 if that helps.

[Kurald Galain]

Fighter damage is generally solid; I don't see why you need be outdamaged by a ranger and a viv, of all things. This is probably a matter of better ability scores, more charop on their part, or luck. Or maybe it's because you get a -4/-4 to hit because you're dual-wielding longswords?

Or, well, google turns up at least five different mods each called the "unchained fighter", maybe you're just using one that's bad? The reason Paizo didn't print an U-Fighter is because it wasn't needed; fighters are bland and sorely lacking in skills, but in combat they get the job done.

So anyway, the way to make the fighter interesting is either by taking one or more archetypes (e.g. Eldritch Guardian gives you a familiar, or Mutation Warrior gives you a mutagen), or using maneuvers (take the Dirty Fighting feat and you can use all of them).

[emeraldstreak]

Power Attack - Furious Focus won't hurt a two-handed Fighter.

For roleplay, may I suggest some outside personalization via gear made out of special materials. And no, I don't mean boring stuff like mithral or adamantine, but the rare stuff Pathfinder has. Plus, your character's interest in such gear creates an opportunity for a backstory and a side adventure for the group to obtain it.

Edit: you actually said two-weapon, not two-handed. So PA-FF isn't that high on the feat list. At any rate you can downgrade an exotic weapon to a martial weapon via a cheap-ish ioun stone, and wield something well-statted without spending a feat.

[Efrate]

Since no PoW how about akashic? Gives a ton of options and im sure there is a relevsnt fighter archtype.

[upho]

First, I agree with everything Kurald said. And I definitely think we should be able to bring your character up to par with the other PCs in the party in a way you'll find fun and interesting to play, crunch-wise (at least in combat) as well as fluff-wise. But in order to do so, I think you should first ask yourself what you'd like to focus on in combat, as you can do a whole lot of potentially very powerful stuff with melee other than - or in addition to - hp damage (more below).

Here's a bunch of questions and comments, sorted into lists ('cause it appears I love using that function for some reason :smallwink:):


So I'm getting bored with my character. It's been about 10 sessions and my level 6 half-orc fighter is kinda falling flat. Not only am I outperformed in combat by the rest of the party, but the roleplaying is not good either.I'm not very surprised, actually, since these problems often go hand in hand IME.


I brought up these concerns to my GM, and he said I could retrain my build and retcon some of my backstory to help me have more fun with my character instead of switching entirely.Good. The questions then become:

How much of a mechanical improvement in terms of your combat abilities do you think you need? For example, would you like to have a combat prowess roughly translating into "remove one enemy of CR = level from combat per average round", less, or even more? (Tip: try comparing the values of your existing fighter "build" to the baseline target values in this chart (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BQS6uZh7_bpp3RSwOVfuYd_Eg-4iXlHXTXeWVKksihY/edit?usp=sharing), which gives approximate values for how high a combatant’s most basic numbers should be in order to be viable, at least in less challenging combat. The values are derived from the "average" monster values, used for monster creation guidelines, of monsters of a CR equal to the PC’s level, with excellent values in blue, good in green, and the “passable” minimum in orange, see this article (https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/bench-pressing-character-creation-by-the-numbers/) for details).
How dangerous opponents should you be capable of facing (approximate CR above your level), and is there any particular type(s) of enemy creature you can expect to face especially frequently, such as humanoids, undead or evil outsiders?
Which level do you expect to reach by the end of the campaign/AP, or at which level do you expect to retire your PC?
How difficult can you expect it to be for your PC/party to find/buy/craft specific items?
Can you possibly change any other choice already made for your PC (see below)?
Would you like to continue with combat Intimidation (this can be made fantastically effective)?
Would you like to focus more on melee control/party defense, debuff, or the classic melee single-target damage, or two things about equally? Maybe something more niche as well, such as amazing dispelling power both in and outside of combat? (Either focus can most likely make your PC at least as effective in combat as the other PCs, although damage is most likely going to be the most repetitive and least tactically interesting.)
Do you think you'd prefer relatively simple and quick combat abilities with fewer tactical options, or more complex and versatile combat abilities with many tactical options?


Right now I am kind of a generic two-weapon fighter with some of the Dazzling Display line of feats. I'm always gonna be outdamaged by the ranger and vivisectionist, so I'm not looking to raise my DPS, but I need more to do in combat to have fun. I do want to stay a melee character and keep at least Two-Weapon Fighting as a feat because my pair of longswords are backstory-relevant, but I'm open to changing my class and anything else except my race. /snip/ My ability scores are Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 8 if that helps.OK. I think three things stand out as less than great - or potentially problematic - options from a mechanical optimization PoV:


Dazzling Display is normally a trap due to its terrible action economy, and most likely simply won't cut for the power level of your game unless used with Hero's Display (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hero-s-display-combat-performance/) supported by a metric ton of performance combat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/performance-combat) feats (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/performance-feats/) and related options (which can instead make it hilariously powerful). (Cornugon Smash (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat/) or Enforcer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat/) are otherwise vastly superior choices, especially with multiple attacks per round and Soulless Gaze (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation/) and one other Damnation feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/) (often Fiendskin (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/fiendskin-damnation/)).)
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TWF with two longswords is likewise unfortunately not mechanically viable without at least an effortless lace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/effortless-lace/) or the Prodigious TWF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/feats/prodigious-two-weapon-fighting-combat) feat, which is from PoW. Have your PC been using either of these? In addition, TWF (without one or more shields) is primarily good for damage, and isn't as suitable for control, defense and/or debuff which typically favor maximized reach and different investment priorities.
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Related to TWF or whichever combat style and focus you end up going for, your ability score distribution may very well be a bit off. Although considering how high they are on average (equivalent to 26-point buy if the above includes the floating +2 racial bonus), they're not necessarily problematic. Did you roll these? Do you think it would be possible to for example have two of the scores swap places if the build you'd like to go for would benefit?

Speaking of, it would be great if you could post brief descriptions of the other PCs in the party (such as race and most notable class(es), focus area(s), combat roles/styles etc). That way we can mitigate the risks of redundancies or you waltzing all over someone else's toes, and instead find teamwork synergies between you PC "build" and the rest of the party.


I don't really want to "be a spellcaster" but I'd like to pick up a few more supernatural abilities that give me both more options in combat and a bit of extra uniqueness for roleplaying. Then I can adjust my motivations and personality around my new abilities. 3pp is allowed (we are heavily using stuff from Kobold Press, Legendary Games, Everyman Games, Radiance House, and Dreamscarred Press minus Path of War).There are thankfully an abundance of interesting (Su) abilities for you to choose which won't make you a caster (for example DSP publications such as Akashic Mysteries (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/akashic-mysteries), Bloodforge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/dreamscarred-press/mongrel/) and Lords of (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/dreamscarred-press/shifting-feats/) the Wild (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/dreamscarred-press/formless-master/) offer several very useful, different and fun such options).

Does "minus Path of War" mean it's off the table? If not, PoW does offer everything you seem to be looking for, and more, all quite easily balanced to for example a party ranging from about a "mid-op" bloodrager, via alchemist, to say sorcerer power level. And it comes with a ton of different flavors, plus plenty of interesting (Su) abilities, to help make your PC more interesting.


I was initially an iron caster, but we found out that the fighter fix we were using (Unchained Fighter) wrote that out of existence, so I get to retrain for free.Could you perhaps post a link to this archetype?

Most important questions in summary:

Which "mechanical combat focus(es)/role(s)" do you think you'd find most fun and best suit your character and party?
How effective does your character have to be in combat in order to be about on par with the other PCs?
What are the other PCs in the party focusing on in combat?
Is "TWF with longswords" a requirement?

[Psyren]

"Unchained Fighter" is basically Fighter plus some combination of AWT/AAT and Stamina, all of which it gets (or can get) free of charge. You can then layer on interesting archetypes like Martial Master,Mobile Fighter or Mutation Warrior, plus a Style or two.

[RNightstalker]

I would agree with the above mentioned ability score questions, I'd definitely try to retrain or swap DX and CN. The HP will come in more handy than +1 AC that you may not even get depending on the armor you wear.

The Tempest PrC can help reduce TWF penalties, and there are a few more feats that can reduce them to 0 by letting you consider a longsword in your off-hand as a light weapon. It also has Tempest Defense (+3AC over the five levels) and Two-Weapon Versatility, so in case you come up against something that slashing weapons are ineffective at, you can apply some of your combat feats to whatever you use as long as you've got a weapon in each hand.

There's also the Dervish that will let you take 5-ft. steps in between attacks during a full attack called a "Dervish Dance", which can spice things up and create a lot of flanking opportunities. Investing some ranks in Tumble or creating a magic item for a competence bonus will help avoid AOO's, and you get some bonuses while "dancing" including attack/damage bonuses, cleave, a thousand cuts-which let's you double your number of attacks in a round 1/day. If you do that you'll definitely want to keep your stats as they are because you'll be limited in the armor you can wear to do that. I personally did a Scout/Ranger/Dervish build that I did enjoy.

[upho]

"Unchained Fighter" is basically Fighter plus some combination of AWT/AAT and Stamina, all of which it gets (or can get) free of charge.Seems that could not be possibly be what the OP refers to:
I was initially an iron caster, but we found out that the fighter fix we were using (Unchained Fighter) wrote that out of existence, so I get to retrain for free.The "Unchained Fighter" you're talking about does the opposite of the what the OP's does - your version is what enables "Iron Caster" builds in the first place, "not writes it out of existence".

[Psyren]

Seems that could not be possibly be what the OP refers to:The "Unchained Fighter" you're talking about does the opposite of the what the OP's does - your version is what enables "Iron Caster" builds in the first place, "not writes it out of existence".

My point was that there is no (official) "unchained fighter" - but you can approximate that kind of philosophy by combining all the free patches they've been putting out for the fighter class over the years.

No idea what an "iron caster" is.

[upho]

My point was that there is no (official) "unchained fighter" - but you can approximate that kind of philosophy by combining all the free patches they've been putting out for the fighter class over the years.Well, this is also what I think of when someone says "unchained fighter". But the OP seems to be talking about something else.


No idea what an "iron caster" is.It's a highly unorthodox and fun type of fighter build using Item Mastery feats and Martial Flexibility, Barroom Brawler, Abundant Tactics etc for kinda sorta Con based "casting" by simply wielding a magic weapon (of any kind). Has the potential to greatly increase the fighter's versatility. Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G1oa8hQif08qqRdEyMnDVVFAoBN_53uhNcJc4wArQxs/edit#), have a short guide. :smallsmile: