Why aren't mortals more powerful than gods?

[rferries]

If a 4-colour Snarl is greater than a 1-colour god, then surely a 3-colour mortal is also greater than a 1-colour god?

Even if it's an exponential scale (where the Snarl might be far more powerful than a god, while a mortal is only slightly more powerful), why are the mortals so weak? Is it by design (so they don't rebel), or because they were created harmoniously rather than from divine conflict?

[Fyraltari]

If a 4-colour Snarl is greater than a 1-colour god, then surely a 3-colour mortal is also greater than a 1-colour god?

Even if it's an exponential scale (where the Snarl might be far more powerful than a god, while a mortal is only slightly more powerful), why are the mortals so weak? Is it by design (so they don't rebel), or because they were created harmoniously rather than from divine conflict?

Because level still trumps quiddity. Mortals of the same level as the Gods (50-60ish ?) would be more powerful. But there aren’t such mortals.

[Razade]

Because level still trumps quiddity. Mortals of the same level as the Gods (50-60ish ?) would be more powerful. But there aren’t such mortals.

How do you know the Gods have levels and that they're that high? Maybe Gods just have a high CR rating but no actual Class Levels?

[hroþila]

How do you know the Gods have levels and that they're that high? Maybe Gods just have a high CR rating but no actual Class Levels?
The gods do have levels in 3.5 (they changed it in 4e, I think; there's a joke about this in SSDT). See here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html): "Some have theorized since that gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been."

[KorvinStarmast]

How do you know the Gods have levels
There is some info in the 3.5 SRD on that.
(http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm)

For example

Levels
Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well. These additional character levels beyond an effective character level of 20th follow the rules for epic levels.

Not sure how closely to that Rich adheres; in some campaigns, deities are not a monster / creature that PCs can defeat.

[RatElemental]

Not sure how closely to that Rich adheres; in some campaigns, deities are not a monster / creature that PCs can defeat.

Even in campaigns where deities are statted you'd be hard pressed to actually manage to fight one at all, much less win. Unless you yourself are also a deity.

As far as the original post goes, the way I understand it is that the gods can't just decide to unravel any given mortal into their threads of reality, not without the help of the other three two pantheons. But luckily they don't have to, since they can just fry any uppity mortals they want gone with lightning or something.

Edit: Brain fart

[NoHaxJustPi]

Even in campaigns where deities are statted you'd be hard pressed to actually manage to fight one at all, much less win. Unless you yourself are also a deity.

As far as the original post goes, the way I understand it is that the gods can't just decide to unravel any given mortal into their threads of reality, not without the help of the other three pantheons. But luckily they don't have to, since they can just fry any uppity mortals they want gone with lightning or something.

You mean the other two pantheons. If you're thinking of the Eastern gods, they were killed by the snarl. If you're thinking of The Dark One (goblin gods?), he wasn't involved in this world's creation.

[ijuinkun]

There's also the matter of the sheer amount of energy that goes into a thing. The Snarl for example had energy input from the quarreling of all of the gods (probably sixty to a hundred of them originally), while Mortal races didn't need "all" of the gods, just a bit of each quiddity, and also got a lot less overall energy. We know that energy is important to a god's power level, from the recent issue with Hel and her claiming that the sudden influx of several centuries' worth of Dwarf souls all at once would raise her relative standing.

[deuterio12]

If a 4-colour Snarl is greater than a 1-colour god, then surely a 3-colour mortal is also greater than a 1-colour god?

Even if it's an exponential scale (where the Snarl might be far more powerful than a god, while a mortal is only slightly more powerful), why are the mortals so weak? Is it by design (so they don't rebel), or because they were created harmoniously rather than from divine conflict?

Each mortal type was created by a single god, they're all single-colour.

[Rrmcklin]

Each mortal type was created by a single god, they're all single-colour.

No they, aren't.

[ijuinkun]

Thor specifically said that it requires multiple quiddities in order to produce Mortals (i.e. material beings who are capable of free will and generating the energies that Gods require for sustenance).

[factotum]

Thor specifically said that it requires multiple quiddities in order to produce Mortals (i.e. material beings who are capable of free will and generating the energies that Gods require for sustenance).

Yeah, this--Thor said the Gods had to combine their quiddities to make anything lasting.

[martianmister]

Because level still trumps quiddity. Mortals of the same level as the Gods (50-60ish ?) would be more powerful. But there aren’t such mortals.

For example, Raistlin would be such a mortal.

[zimmerwald1915]

For example, Raistlin would be such a mortal.
OOTS-world is not Krynn.

[martianmister]

OOTS-world is not Krynn.

That's why I said "would be" and not "is."

[Barebarian]

If a 4-colour Snarl is greater than a 1-colour god, then surely a 3-colour mortal is also greater than a 1-colour god?

Even if it's an exponential scale (where the Snarl might be far more powerful than a god, while a mortal is only slightly more powerful), why are the mortals so weak? Is it by design (so they don't rebel), or because they were created harmoniously rather than from divine conflict?

The Snarl isn't greater than a 1-colour god by being 4-colour, it's greater than the gods because it was born of their divine rage and discord, mortals aren't. It just can't be willed into nonexistence by any gods because they have no control over its fourth colour. Same goes for mortals, a god can still kill them with a fireball or lightning bolt, but they can't just will them out of existence.

[Kish]

For example, Raistlin would be such a mortal.
Raistlin has published statistics. They put him at level 20. That's two-zero.

If Raistlin ever showed up in the OotS world, I'm pretty sure he would fare a great deal like Larry Gardener, or Fruit Pie the Sorcerer.

[zimmerwald1915]

Raistlin has published statistics. They put him at level 20. That's two-zero.
By 2005, they were putting out books pegging Raistlin as of his time in Palanthas at level 27 in d20/OGL. Tracy Hickman et al., Dragonlance Campaign Setting Companion: Legends of the Twins 83-84 (2005).


If Raistlin ever showed up in the OotS world, I'm pretty sure he would fare a great deal like Larry Gardener, or Fruit Pie the Sorcerer.
Or Zz'dtri.

[factotum]

It just can't be willed into nonexistence by any gods because they have no control over its fourth colour. Same goes for mortals, a god can still kill them with a fireball or lightning bolt, but they can't just will them out of existence.

I'm not sure either of those follow. The Gods can't will the Snarl out of existence because it's too powerful, not because it's four colours--presumably they would have tried to get rid of it as soon as it attacked the Eastern Gods, but they failed. As for the second point, it isn't the same at all, because all current generation mortals have only three colours, not four--only the mortals from the first planet the Snarl destroyed had four, because the Eastern Gods were included in their creation.

[Dion]

For example, Raistlin would be such a mortal.

Or Elminster! Did anyone say Elminster yet?

Fun fact: you just inadvertently made the same face you make when you smell a fart on the elevator.

[Riftwolf]

Or Elminster! Did anyone say Elminster yet?

Fun fact: you just inadvertently made the same face you make when you smell a fart on the elevator.

I started choking and my eyes watered, but due to an unrelated incident.

[Snails]

If a 4-colour Snarl is greater than a 1-colour god, then surely a 3-colour mortal is also greater than a 1-colour god?

If you read the Scribble Tale very very carefully, you will see that what you wrote is, narrowly speaking, probably true. It says so.

To be explicit and fill in some mechanics details with highly speculative concretes: yes, a 100 HP mortal can stand toe to toe against the Snarl and survive longer than a 10000 HP god. Presumably for the exact reason you said.

But in other respects, no, the >100th level god is more powerful because...power is power and levels are power and levels are levels blah blah blah.

[Riftwolf]

Or Elminster! Did anyone say Elminster yet?

Fun fact: you just inadvertently made the same face you make when you smell a fart on the elevator.

Actually my health is slowly deteriorating after reading that WHAT DID YOU DO

[Dion]

Actually my health is slowly deteriorating after reading that WHAT DID YOU DO

I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to say Elminster!

Oh no! I said Elminster again!

[Riftwolf]

I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to say Elminster!

Oh no! I said Elminster again!

I'm on my phone so can't link images, but if we all imagine that bit from Indiana Jones where the guy drinks from the wrong cup, that's pretty much how things are going down

[Aveline]

I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to say Elminster!

Oh no! I said Elminster again!

I can think of at least two Monty Python sketches this could be.

[zimmerwald1915]

I can think of at least two Monty Python sketches this could be.
So this isn't to do with FR lore? Cause I'll be honest, I'm quite lost.

[Aveline]

So this isn't to do with FR lore? Cause I'll be honest, I'm quite lost.

(FR = Forgotten Realms?)

I was thinking of the Knights Who Say Ni, then a forum-inappropriate sketch about the throwing of stones, then the Knights Who Formerly Said Ni.

[Kish]

So this isn't to do with FR lore? Cause I'll be honest, I'm quite lost.
Some people find the insane, ridiculous, horrendous power-bloat in the Forgotten Realms, which notoriously has bartenders turn out to be high-level retired adventurers, somewhat off-putting for some reason I'm sure I couldn't relate to at all myself.

Elminster, who was level 26 in First Edition and level 45 or so in his (first?) published 3.x stats, is the most egregious example of same.

[ijuinkun]

If you read the Scribble Tale very very carefully, you will see that what you wrote is, narrowly speaking, probably true. It says so.

To be explicit and fill in some mechanics details with highly speculative concretes: yes, a 100 HP mortal can stand toe to toe against the Snarl and survive longer than a 10000 HP god. Presumably for the exact reason you said.

But in other respects, no, the >100th level god is more powerful because...power is power and levels are power and levels are levels blah blah blah.

A mortal would be more resistant to being unmade, but in turn can not deal out enough damage alone to do more than annoy the Snarl. Even all of the potential possible allies of the OOTS fighting together are not going to do more than "hold off the Snarl for a few moments so that the new seal can be formed".

[Snails]

A mortal would be more resistant to being unmade, but in turn can not deal out enough damage alone to do more than annoy the Snarl. Even all of the potential possible allies of the OOTS fighting together are not going to do more than "hold off the Snarl for a few moments so that the new seal can be formed".

Sure.

The Snarl is a McGuffin that is not destined to be solved by direct violence*. Surviving many seconds while standing before the most dangerous company in the universe is not necessarily an advantage to sneeze at.



* Given what we know, it is within the realm of plausible that if several pantheons of other quiddities crossed over to here from somewheres else to gang up on the Snarl maaaaaaybe it could be dispatched. As a single quiddity god could evaporate before a 4 quiddity monster, such a monster might similarly fall if attacked by, say, pantheons of 13 different quiddities acting in unison. Of course, such an effort might well fail, so it would be an absurd risk. Why other pantheons would try or if they could make such a journey, those are not the kinds of questions The Giant's tale is going to answer.

[Zenzis]

Even though a diamond is harder than steel, a tank is more "powerful" than an engagement ring in most senses of the word. Mortals are harder than the gods.

Edit:
To elaborate a little, mortals are weaker than the gods in two major ways. The first is simply a matter of scale. The gods harness so much more raw power than any mortal has. The second is more about natural machinery or mechanics. The gods are able to interact with reality at a fundamental level that mortals cannot. They can directly shape the strings of reality into creation through means that we have seen no mortal able to access. The closest thing is spellcasters like wizards, but even then the mechanisms they use to interact with reality are simply worse than the mechanisms used by even one god. (Thor's creation was "little better (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html)" than what a wizard could have done, and a wizard would have had to research a spell for it, and expend a spell slot.)

[Kish]

Mortals are harder than the gods.
I'll be disappointed if nobody sigs this.

[martianmister]

I'll be disappointed if nobody sigs this.

So, did you?