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Dhavaer
2007-09-29, 12:53 AM
It seems kind of weird to say this, but orcs are pretty nasty enemies to fight at low levels. Defensively they're pretty pathetic, I admit, but offensively they're crazy good. A hit from an orc (average 9 damage) will drop most level 1 characters except for those with large hit dice or very high Con, and they're quite likely to hit, too. Worse, with their falchions they have a very good chance of getting a crit, which will drop anyone who hasn't taken Toughness (and who does?).

In short, orcs are the embodiment of 'the best defence is a good offence'. And if they get into close quarters (and most encounters take place at close quarters) they have a very powerful offence indeed.

Thoughts?

Starsinger
2007-09-29, 01:01 AM
Turn on the lights? :smallwink: But yeah I know what you mean, I've literally saved lives with daze/flare (which is the cantrip that gives -1 to attack rolls?)... simply because you can't afford for an orc to hit you.

Dhavaer
2007-09-29, 01:02 AM
Turn on the lights? :smallwink: But yeah I know what you mean, I've literally saved lives with daze/flare (which is the cantrip that gives -1 to attack rolls?)... simply because you can't afford for an orc to hit you.

It's flare. Daze is the one that makes them dazed. :smallwink:

kjones
2007-09-29, 01:09 AM
This has played out pretty much as you say in my personal DMing experience. My orcs usually aren't armed with book weapons because of this.

It's their weapons that make them "overpowered". Just take away their falchions and give them clubs. Makes more sense flavor-wise, and that 9 average damage becomes 7, which is survivable for a front-line melee-er, as it should be.

The rest of the problem lies with the inherent flaws in 1st level gameplay.

Miraqariftsky
2007-09-29, 01:29 AM
But then, orcs weren't meant for 1st level PCs, were they?

kpenguin
2007-09-29, 01:38 AM
But then, orcs weren't meant for 1st level PCs, were they?

Given the 1/2 challenge rating, yes they were.

Spiritbear
2007-09-29, 01:46 AM
Orcs are not at all dificult for a group of first levels. An orc has many dissadvantages mainly stupidity and there sensitivity to light. But also they are usualy set up for toe to toe confrontation. and that is where things like a longbow and crossbow come into play. and lets not forget the other thrown weapons axes,hammers,daggers,javalins,darts,spears,Orc Shotput, Etc. these are all great to use and hey if they can't reach you they can't hurt you. even if you are first level a little thing like tactics and a battle plan can do a lot of good.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-29, 01:48 AM
With core classes, sure. Anything else, you'll blast 'em. My first char (mr. azerian Kelimon, now Kelrain) cleaned 26 orcs on a single day, alone. Including three leaders who had full plate and were fighters. He was a swordsage who had this stats, in the common order: 18, 16, 16, 16, 18, 16. Burning blade, blistering flourish, and shadow blade tech kill muchos orcos rapido.

kpenguin
2007-09-29, 01:50 AM
With core classes, sure. Anything else, you'll blast 'em. My first char (mr. azerian Kelimon, now Kelrain) cleaned 26 orcs on a single day, alone. Including three leaders who had full plate and were fighters. He was a swordsage who had this stats, in the common order: 18, 16, 16, 16, 18, 16. Burning blade, blistering flourish, and shadow blade tech kill muchos orcos rapido.

ALL of your stats were 16+? What kind of high point buy/lucky rolls were you plugging?!

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-29, 01:57 AM
My second reroll yielded those stats. On organic 3d6. Everyone thought such luck should be banned, but a fellow DM allowed it. And later on, on my 25th reroll at common 4d6, I got those same stats. Lucky me, those stats like me.

Caewil
2007-09-29, 01:59 AM
If you beat their initiative, they're not much of a problem. Especially if you have a ranged character. Javelins vs. Bows...

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-29, 02:02 AM
Funny thing is, I lost initiative half of the time, includin' the battles with the fighter & cohorts, but my AC saved me from being hit even once. 17 at level one, from chain shirt and DEX, and by the time I reached level 2, 21 because of the added WIS bonus.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-29, 02:15 AM
With core classes, sure. Anything else, you'll blast 'em. My first char (mr. azerian Kelimon, now Kelrain) cleaned 26 orcs on a single day, alone. Including three leaders who had full plate and were fighters. He was a swordsage who had this stats, in the common order: 18, 16, 16, 16, 18, 16. Burning blade, blistering flourish, and shadow blade tech kill muchos orcos rapido.

With two 18s and four 16s (in a somewhat MAD class), at the level where attribute bonuses are about the only kind you get, you did really well?

GEE.

Armads
2007-09-29, 02:20 AM
The light sensitivity issue can be solved by sundark goggles. They're dirt cheap anyway (10 gp). A crusader could destroy orcs pretty easily, though. (Delayed Damage Pool and healing strikes).

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-29, 02:20 AM
And the fighter who had 3 18's, 1 17, and 2 15's was crushed after his third fight with an orc warrior. We allowed him to take full plate and one handed katana as martial, and the orc rolled 15 and killed him anyway. After he rolled init 20 naturally.


GEE


Problems is that core sucks unless you cast. The wiz ravaged the orcs he met by convincing them to fight against each other. However, a reasonably good class and good ability selection DID work well.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-29, 03:55 AM
Problems is that core sucks unless you cast. The wiz ravaged the orcs he met by convincing them to fight against each other. However, a reasonably good class and good ability selection DID work well.
At first level... how?


Also, Martial Adept classes are massively more powerful than other melee classes for the first couple levels and your utterly ridiculous stats probably didn't hurt.

Josef
2007-09-29, 03:59 AM
I had an amusing situation where a 2nd level character charged into a room, only to be hit by an orc hiding by the doorway, and promptly criticaled with a great axe for full damage (somewhere in the region of 40). The character should have been completely dead, but it seemed a little unlucky, so I let him survive (just).

Armads
2007-09-29, 04:13 AM
At first level... how?

He doesn't actually do that. He just casts Sleep or Color Spray.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-29, 04:29 AM
This reminds me of Baldur's Gate, or indeed any D&D-based computer game that starts your characters at level one. Your PCs drop like flies. Any random hit has a good chance of taking them down, and you need to do a lot of saving/restoring to get through the first encounters.

Of course, most computer games wisen up and start at level 3 or so. But if you do combat at first level in D&D, you pretty much need luck to survive.

kpenguin
2007-09-29, 05:22 AM
This reminds me of Baldur's Gate, or indeed any D&D-based computer game that starts your characters at level one. Your PCs drop like flies. Any random hit has a good chance of taking them down, and you need to do a lot of saving/restoring to get through the first encounters.

Of course, most computer games wisen up and start at level 3 or so. But if you do combat at first level in D&D, you pretty much need luck to survive.

I wish this rate of fatality carried out through all levels. It is pleasing when the PCs cannot simply solve their problems through combat very easily.

Zincorium
2007-09-29, 05:29 AM
I wish this rate of fatality carried out through all levels. It is pleasing when the PCs cannot simply solve their problems through combat very easily.

Well, the problem is that generally leads to either a revolving door afterlife or the permanent loss of characters the players have grown to like, the middle ground with that is one of the hardest things to maintain I've seen in the game.

At low levels, resurrection is generally not available, NPCs casting it are a stretch of credulity even if done well, and I prefer not to have them. And because I'd like the players to treat their characters as more than 'fighter number 56', I generally present them with challenges that they can overcome with intelligent use of resources, without an unreasonably high chance of death.

In any case, from your post I think you have a profoundly different and probably incompatible style of DMing than myself.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-29, 05:35 AM
Computer games need to give you non-combat quests at the beginning levels just so you don't get whacked right off the bat.

Orcs are about as dangerous as an optimized fighter or barbarian. They are entirely scalable. So, just use the same tactics you would use againt a fighter and you'll be fine.

Kantolin
2007-09-29, 05:58 AM
To be fair, the spike in damage is in large part due to their weapon. Orcs weilding gauntlets are dramatically less threatening, as are orcs with clubs. To compare, a kobold with a greataxe does, while not quite as high damage, rather high damage. Although you're right in that, if taken straight out of the book, orcs are surprisingly well-optimized to walk up and hit someone.

Personally, I look more at kobolds (Of the walk-up-and-hit-you variety, not the more competent trapbuilding variety) for surprisingly more low-level trouble, especially if you shift weapons to one with more damage attached to it. Namely because you get two kobolds, each swinging with a chance of killing or significantly maiming a PC, for the CR-price of one orc. Four swings per round has an irritatingly large chance of gutting someone compared to two swings per round, then kobolds are harder to make go away.

Lycurgus
2007-09-29, 07:34 AM
Yeah I like kobolds and goblins better at the low end. There is always the options that PCs tend to forget....the RTFA defense.:smalltongue:

WhiteHarness
2007-09-29, 07:43 AM
Where did the notion that orcs were huge, hulking creatures with bulging muscles start anyway? It certainly seems to be almost universal in lower-quality fantasy games (video and tabletop alike) nowadays. Tolkien, who gave us the modern fantasy orc, very pointedly depicted them as being smaller than men, not bigger. I reject D&D's orc and substitute my own...

wowy319
2007-09-29, 07:53 AM
given their low HP, poor will saves and weaknesses to the sun (it's rare that a 1st-level party go exploring during the night), I'd say not really. A good use of 0-level spells (or even sleep) will take down an orc with little to no difficulty. -4 to wisdom, charisma and intelligence makes them pretty vulnerable to enchantments and illusions.

Dhavaer
2007-09-29, 07:59 AM
-4 to wisdom, charisma and intelligence makes them pretty vulnerable to enchantments and illusions.

It's -2, not -4. Their light weakness is generally negated by being underground, too.

Matthew
2007-09-29, 08:12 AM
Yeah, 3.0 Orcs had more sensible stats. The 3.5 Orc is a Glass Cannon. they aren't so much overpowered as they are unbalanced.

Morty
2007-09-29, 08:14 AM
How were 3.0 orcish stats different from those in 3.5?
And I don't find orcs overpowered at all. They're melee monsters, but they're easily beaten by spells and are sucky as any casters. And they don't have any special abilities, which means that they're weaker than PC races.

TO_Incognito
2007-09-29, 08:33 AM
I wish this rate of fatality carried out through all levels. It is pleasing when the PCs cannot simply solve their problems through combat very easily.

Obstacles and NPCs often force the players to do something other than fight. Monsters that just flat out kill the PCs don't; they just flat out kill the PCs. I would rather have my players do something other than fight, sure, but I'd rather have them fight than just drop dead because I throw nothing but killer encounters at them specifically so they can't fight.

The only way a pack of killer orcs at level 1 would actually encourage players to do something other than fight if if the DM is into idiotic railroading: "You encounter a monster you can't survive against or escape from, who orders you to solve this puzzle."

Matthew
2007-09-29, 08:49 AM
How were 3.0 orcish stats different from those in 3.5?
And I don't find orcs overpowered at all. They're melee monsters, but they're easily beaten by spells and are sucky as any casters. And they don't have any special abilities, which means that they're weaker than PC races.

3.0 Orc
Strength 15, Dexterity 10, Constitution 11, Intelligence 9, Wisdom 8, Charisma 8,

3.5 Orc
Strength 17, Dexterity 11, Constitution 12, Intelligence 8, Wisdom 7, Charisma 6,

Crow
2007-09-29, 08:56 AM
Problems is that core sucks unless you cast. The wiz ravaged the orcs he met by convincing them to fight against each other. However, a reasonably good class and good ability selection DID work well.

Not to mention the what, +3 level adjustment from your stats alone...

Ganon11
2007-09-29, 09:08 AM
Problems is that core sucks unless you cast.

It shouldn't matter how 'good' the player's characters are; it's the DMs job to present an appropriate encounter.

Lycurgus
2007-09-29, 09:10 AM
Last time I checked, the DM was in control of the monsters and NPCs, therefore in control of whether or not there is any need for "flat out killing." Railroading isn't necessary, you can set the tone of the game and players will generally move toward it. Tweak experience and rewards so they gain more by not killing if that's the kind of game you want.

bugsysservant
2007-09-29, 09:13 AM
Yeah, I usually give orcs a couple of levels of fighter, good armor, a different weaon and make them a low level boss after fighting goblins. The problem with orcs is that with their weapons, they just have a decent chance of dealing massive damage at the expence of defence. Giving them clubs will also fix this problem.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-09-29, 10:42 AM
Where did the notion that orcs were huge, hulking creatures with bulging muscles start anyway? It certainly seems to be almost universal in lower-quality fantasy games (video and tabletop alike) nowadays. Tolkien, who gave us the modern fantasy orc, very pointedly depicted them as being smaller than men, not bigger. I reject D&D's orc and substitute my own...

Moria and Misty Mountain Orcs = Use D&D goblin stats (they are even called goblins in The Hobbit)

Barad-dur Orcs = Use D&D Orcs stats

Uruk-Hai = Use D&D Hobgoblin stats

There, fixed it for you.

Matthew
2007-09-29, 10:45 AM
Moria and Misty Mountain Orcs = Use D&D goblin stats (they are even called goblins in The Hobbit)

Barad-dur Orcs = Use D&D Orcs stats

Uruk-Hai = Use D&D Hobgoblin stats

There, fixed it for you.

No you haven't. You've just tacked on a few misleading or mistaken ideas about how 3e connects with Tolkien.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-29, 10:48 AM
Yeah, I usually give orcs a couple of levels of fighter, good armor, a different weaon and make them a low level boss after fighting goblins. The problem with orcs is that with their weapons, they just have a decent chance of dealing massive damage at the expence of defence. Giving them clubs will also fix this problem.

CR for each PC levels goes up for 1 for the ORc if PC level fighter.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-09-29, 11:51 AM
Funny thing is, I lost initiative half of the time, includin' the battles with the fighter & cohorts, but my AC saved me from being hit even once. 17 at level one, from chain shirt and DEX, and by the time I reached level 2, 21 because of the added WIS bonus.

Pssst... unless there's some Swordsage thing I don't know about (I haven't screwed with ToB much), you don't get Dex to AC if you lose initiative. Not until your first turn. I think Wisdom is similarly dropped. You're flat-footed until your first action in combat.

wowy319
2007-09-29, 11:57 AM
It's -2, not -4. Their light weakness is generally negated by being underground, too.

Well, I'd say that'd be the DM's fault for making their weakness pointless. As far as being underground goes, again, it's the DM's fault. The way you encounter orcs is up to the DM.

And, -2 still means -1 to their will save, which, as a first-level warrior means that they get no class bonus. So, barring extraordinary rolls, a 1st-level, or even 0-level spell is likely to make an orc's life miserable.

Thane
2007-09-29, 04:58 PM
I don't know how orcs are overpowered.

A "challenging" encounter for a group of 4 first level adventurers is 2 orcs.

A "very difficult" encounter for a group of 4 first level adventurers is 4 orcs.

Orcs are 1 hit die, and have -2 will saves. A level 1 mage can drop all of them in one shot with a sleep spell (DC 15 if he's a generalist, DC 17 if he specializes and takes a feat).

Their listen/spot skills are crap, and their hide/move silently are even worse. If you just accidentally end up in melee range with a band of orcs you're taking things way too carelessly :)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-29, 05:11 PM
Well, I'd say that'd be the DM's fault for making their weakness pointless. As far as being underground goes, again, it's the DM's fault. The way you encounter orcs is up to the DM.
Kinda stretches verisimilitude if all the members of an underground dwellign race with a significant disadvantage in bright light would come to the surface during the day with any regularity, doesn't it? Even with their mental stat penalties, Orcs are still smart enough to play to their strengths and minimize the effects of their weaknesses. Light sensitivity should only be coming into play on account of the actions of the players by them setting the proper trap or simply casting the appropriate spell (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsDtoE.html#daylight).

This goes for pretty much any other monster weakness as well. Creatures do not play to their weaknesses.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-09-29, 06:07 PM
At the level PCs end up facing the MM orc, they'll be dropped easily if a hit connects. Heck, this thing exists everywhere in the MM. Yes there are balanced encounters for the CR they have listed, but then there are things like ropers, hydras, assassin vines, and that crustacean who must not be named which will decimate parties unless prepared for.
If players have a good DM, they should not encounter any random CR 9 monster if they are level 9; the encounters should suit the player. Maybe a few challenging ones should be thrown in at time, occasionally an unwinnable one that the party has to run from, but not the aforementioned TPKs for every friggin encounter.
To respond to the orignial question, "Are orcs overpowered?" I will have to say no if the players have a sane DM. If the DM is an idot, a few MM orcs can spell TPK for low level parties.

Kompera
2007-09-29, 10:12 PM
It seems kind of weird to say this, but orcs are pretty nasty enemies to fight at low levels. Defensively they're pretty pathetic, I admit, but offensively they're crazy good. A hit from an orc (average 9 damage) will drop most level 1 characters except for those with large hit dice or very high Con, and they're quite likely to hit, too. Worse, with their falchions they have a very good chance of getting a crit, which will drop anyone who hasn't taken Toughness (and who does?).

In short, orcs are the embodiment of 'the best defence is a good offence'. And if they get into close quarters (and most encounters take place at close quarters) they have a very powerful offence indeed.

Thoughts?As my GM put it when he and I were discussing the damage a few Orcs can do, "This is why you guys are fighting Goblins now". Evil Monks too, but they don't kill players in a single hit either.

Crow
2007-09-29, 10:24 PM
To be completely honest (and I'm surprised nobody else has brought this up), I think orcs were designed to be fought at more medium levels.

They have a low CR so you can toss your group up against large numbers of fodder orcs and maybe some leaders.

Thane
2007-09-29, 11:10 PM
What's funny is, during my adventures, I had way more trouble with goblins than I ever did with orcs.

Goblins use traps and ambushes and are just all around pains in the ass.

I'll take some muscley guy with a sword over some schmuck with a tanglefoot bag and a crossbow any day of the week :)

Dervag
2007-09-29, 11:53 PM
What's funny is, during my adventures, I had way more trouble with goblins than I ever did with orcs.

Goblins use traps and ambushes and are just all around pains in the ass.

I'll take some muscley guy with a sword over some schmuck with a tanglefoot bag and a crossbow any day of the week :)Obviously you don't plan to fight at close quarters.

Querzis
2007-09-30, 04:43 AM
To be completely honest (and I'm surprised nobody else has brought this up), I think orcs were designed to be fought at more medium levels.

They have a low CR so you can toss your group up against large numbers of fodder orcs and maybe some leaders.

Thats usually what my DM do, I never fought any orcs before level 3 in any campaign I played. All the weak evil race like goblins, kobold, orcs, hobs or even troll are almost made to have class levels. Goblins, orcs, hobs or trolls in the monster manual represent what a non-warrior from one of those races can do...they never have warriors or what? You should see people from evil races with class levels as often as you see people from good races with class levels. Even if its NPC class like warrior, many orcs should have class levels and those who dont are just fodders to protect their leaders and their real fighters.

By the way, before even using illusion or something like that, try to talk to them. You ever saw an orc with sense motives? Most of the time its pretty easy to convince them.

Anyway, in one campaign our kingdom was at war with an orc kingdom so even though we also fought lots of other monsters, we fought orcs from level 4 to level 12 and they were still a big threat. Everytimes we got stronger well they did too and they brought more friends with them. At level 9 we almost had a TPK because of a level 11 orc fighter with a level 10 orc druid and lots of low-levels orcs. It was pretty annoying because the druid had lots of rank in sense motives (I guess our DM was tired of us talking our way out of this.)

Dhavaer
2007-09-30, 04:56 AM
Goblins, orcs, hobs or trolls in the monster manual represent what a non-warrior from one of those races can do...they never have warriors or what?

Goblins, hobgoblins and orcs from the Monster Manual are warriors. Anything without racial hit dice is generally a level 1 warrior.

bosssmiley
2007-09-30, 05:04 AM
3.5 Orc
Strength 17, Dexterity 11, Constitution 12, Intelligence 8, Wisdom 7, Charisma 6,

Wow, I'd kinda forgotten just how thick (not primitive, not technologically limited, not socially unreconstructed - thick) D&D Orcs actually were compared to goblinoids. With those mental stats Orcs are only about six inches away from being caricature Warhammer boyz. :smallamused:

That said, like Ogres at CR3, Orcs are Cr1/2 'one trick ponies'. They hit you in the face, hard. Keep out of hacking-to-death range though and they're no more threat than a goblin (probably less). I begin to see why they're standard issue grunt minions for BBEGs.

Crow
2007-09-30, 07:22 AM
Thats usually what my DM do, I never fought any orcs before level 3 in any campaign I played. All the weak evil race like goblins, kobold, orcs, hobs or even troll are almost made to have class levels. Goblins, orcs, hobs or trolls in the monster manual represent what a non-warrior from one of those races can do...they never have warriors or what? You should see people from evil races with class levels as often as you see people from good races with class levels. Even if its NPC class like warrior, many orcs should have class levels and those who dont are just fodders to protect their leaders and their real fighters.

By the way, before even using illusion or something like that, try to talk to them. You ever saw an orc with sense motives? Most of the time its pretty easy to convince them.

Anyway, in one campaign our kingdom was at war with an orc kingdom so even though we also fought lots of other monsters, we fought orcs from level 4 to level 12 and they were still a big threat. Everytimes we got stronger well they did too and they brought more friends with them. At level 9 we almost had a TPK because of a level 11 orc fighter with a level 10 orc druid and lots of low-levels orcs. It was pretty annoying because the druid had lots of rank in sense motives (I guess our DM was tired of us talking our way out of this.)

Throw in an orc wizard to counterspell the fireballs and it gets really hairy!

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-30, 03:45 PM
I've killed a lot of 1-3rd level adventurers with MM orcs. I find that using goblins instead makes for much better adversaries at those low levels.