Broken feats or Divine Metamagic vs Arcane Thesis

[DMluigi]

Hello fellow roleplayers,

Lurked on this very useful forum for some time. Thanks for all the fishes. This is my first post.

Tl;Dr: DMM vs AT? Initiate of Mystra vs Item Familiar?

So I'm about to start my Eberron version of the SCAP from Paizo. My players agreed to try hard mode, that is : play it as written with 28 point-buy. Exception they're only 2 players and never played first tier classes, so to make them learn I made them gestalt cleric and gestalt wizard. I explained to them it is made for 6 PCs so at the beggining they should hire mercenaries and thieves and the sooner they should take Leadership.

To give them a chance (they're not min-maxers or power players), I will also suggest them some cheese, DMM and AT. Do you think they're equivalent?

Since they're going Sovereign Host, should I also suggest them the Initiate of Mystra (Aureon) for the cleric and Item Familiar with Alakast for the wizard (also to make them learn about the wonders of item creation by using the XP to boost their WBL and equip their followers)?

[Kayblis]

They're realy not. It's not just about power, DMM has amazing versatility to it. Applying a costly metamagic feat for free to any spell you can cast more than once a day is a very useful effect, and Arcane Thesis can't compete with that at all. Sure, AT has a higher ceiling, with choosing a very specific spell and picking lots of metamagic feats, but that's the whole build created for a single spell or two(usually Enervation). On the other hand, DMM is one feat invested that gives a lot of versatility and power. Add in items like Nightsticks, Extra Turning domain and the ability to pick it more than once, and you have a powerhouse for not much cost.

It's like comparing a war tank with a very specialized gun that only kills people of a specific nationality. Sure, the latter can be stronger if you're at war with this nation, but in any other case it's subpar at best.

[flappeercraft]

Hello fellow roleplayers,

Lurked on this very useful forum for some time. Thanks for all the fishes. This is my first post.

Tl;Dr: DMM vs AT? Initiate of Mystra vs Item Familiar?

So I'm about to start my Eberron version of the SCAP from Paizo. My players agreed to try hard mode, that is : play it as written with 28 point-buy. Exception they're only 2 players and never played first tier classes, so to make them learn I made them gestalt cleric and gestalt wizard. I explained to them it is made for 6 PCs so at the beggining they should hire mercenaries and thieves and the sooner they should take Leadership.

To give them a chance (they're not min-maxers or power players), I will also suggest them some cheese, DMM and AT. Do you think they're equivalent?

Since they're going Sovereign Host, should I also suggest them the Initiate of Mystra (Aureon) for the cleric and Item Familiar with Alakast for the wizard (also to make them learn about the wonders of item creation by using the XP to boost their WBL and equip their followers)?

Ok, so I can't comment very much on Initiate of Mystra vs Item Familiar since I have never used them or seen them in play except on theorycrafting, however I can on Arcane Thesis and DMM.

Both of these feats while achieving one goal (metamagic reduction), do it it different ways, and as a result are good for different things. DMM uses turn attempts and works for a specific metamagic only. On the other hand arcane thesis focuses on one spell but works for all metamagic. DMM is generally for applying metamagic to a wide variety of spells while Arcane Thesis for building a specialist of a single spell due to it reducing the cost of all metamagic by 1. Not only that but Arcane Thesis also gives a +2 bonus to CL for that spell so even if you don't apply metamagic it still helps. DMM on the other hand uses up limited resources but is generally more versatile as it allows you to apply metamagic on the fly and has the benefit over Arcane Thesis to not modify the spell level at all, however, turn attempts run dry rather quickly if you don't optimize them. So they're about even in power but they help fopr different things.


They're realy not. It's not just about power, DMM has amazing versatility to it. Applying a costly metamagic feat for free to any spell you can cast more than once a day is a very useful effect, and Arcane Thesis can't compete with that at all. Sure, AT has a higher ceiling, with choosing a very specific spell and picking lots of metamagic feats, but that's the whole build created for a single spell or two(usually Enervation). On the other hand, DMM is one feat invested that gives a lot of versatility and power. Add in items like Nightsticks, Extra Turning domain and the ability to pick it more than once, and you have a powerhouse for not much cost.

It's like comparing a war tank with a very specialized gun that only kills people of a specific nationality. Sure, the latter can be stronger if you're at war with this nation, but in any other case it's subpar at best.

While its true that AT is hyperspecialized in comparison to DMM, I differ on the power gap between them. Consider the fact that for DMM to be useful like you say you need to expend WBL, get extra turning and get more turning pools. Arcane Thesis on the other hand does synergize from other feats and items but its not almost necessary to expend WBL or a massive amount of feats to make it viable. In addition AT has the benefit of increasing CL. Plus while DMM can be useful for stuff liek CoDZilla, AT has the benefit of being useful in stuff like the aforementioned enervation builds or orb builds which can get to deal thousands of damage trivially. Its not that DMM is better than AT or the other way around, they are both useful at reducing metamagic, yes, but they work in different ways and as such are most useful for different things.

[Zaq]

Arcane Thesis only really gets nuts if you're applying a kazillion metamagics to one really specific spell. Specialization is strong, yeah, but I still feel like Arcane Thesis cheese is pretty confining if you're not just doing a one-shot. It also takes an absurd number of feats to really make it live up to its full cheese potential, since you have to have all those metamagics. It's the feat you take when you truly want to have "My. Signature. Spell." and not what you use when you want to play a general-purpose high-powered caster. Sure, tack on all the possible bells and whistles to enervation or orb of fire or whatever and it's likely to remove whatever you point it at from the game, but I personally find that to get repetitive after a while. That's why I don't usually play uberchargers.

Is it a bad feat? Nah, that's going too far. I kind of like it on a gish (not that gishes ever have feats to spare) or another similar build that isn't really doing the whole generalist thing. Pick a sufficiently versatile signature spell and it can still feel fresh and interesting (don't even think about what a shadowcraft mage with Arcane Thesis: silent image can accomplish). But it's not usually my jam.

Divine Metamagic is primarily strong for giving you action economy, which is a very powerful option indeed. The two most common choices for it (for good reason!) are Quicken and Persist, either of which has the net effect of "you have this spell active on the field without spending a standard action in combat on it." Just, you know, in different ways. Not the only options, but they're the ones that jump to mind, and there's a reason for that. Action economy is king.

DMM, used well, is going to bring up your general-purpose power level a lot more than AT will. As others have stated, it's generally a winning trade to be able to focus on a favorite metamagic applied to lots of spells rather than on a favorite spell with lots of metamagics tacked on.

The two feats just fundamentally do different jobs, at the end of the day, even if both revolve around reducing metamagic costs. It's actually kind of unusual for me to try to compare them, since I don't usually think of them as both being potentially viable on the same character. It's not usually a choice you'd make in the context of a specific build unless you're going basically all the way back to the drawing board.

Rereading your first post, I feel like it's worth sounding a note of caution here: the "powerful options" you're trying to hand these folks are indeed powerful, but they're the exact opposite of foolproof. They're powerful in the hands of an expert who really gets what they do—what unwritten rules the options break and what written rules the options bend. But they aren't just plug-and-play. They enable wonderful (sometimes too wonderful, i.e., OP) things, but they won't bring those wonderful things to the table without the players trying to do so.

I'm not saying that your friends necessarily wouldn't be able to function with these powerful tools, but the point is that you can't just hand them to someone who doesn't get what they do or why they're cool and expect the coolness to automatically shine through.

[DMluigi]

Mmmmm yeah so like I thought, maybe Arcane Thesis is subpar. Also, since I wanted the players to discover the versatility of first-tier, it seems opposite to what I want to achieve, since that player might end up feeling a sorcerer might have been better at it. Also, it will get in opposition with him learning about item creation.

So what should I suggest him as an equivalent powerful feat as DMM? Item Familiar (from UA you can find it on the SRD)? He's probably going gestalt rogue/wizard so it also boost him as a skill monkey.

[Mike Miller]

Mmmmm yeah so like I thought, maybe Arcane Thesis is subpar. Also, since I wanted the players to discover the versatility of first-tier, it seems opposite to what I want to achieve, since that player might end up feeling a sorcerer might have been better at it. Also, it will get in opposition with him learning about item creation.

So what should I suggest him as an equivalent powerful feat as DMM? Item Familiar (from UA you can find it on the SRD)? He's probably going gestalt rogue/wizard so it also boost him as a skill monkey.

Rogue wizard makes me think spellwarp sniper. Then split ray fun for all the d6s

[Zaq]

Again, it depends. Item Familiar can be powerful, but it's not obviously and immediately powerful if you aren't actively looking to ramp it up. It's not powerful without any input. It opens new doors, but it doesn't do the work for you or even necessarily point you at what new tricks are out there.

Just how much help do you think these folks need, being honest? Do they get how 3.5 optimization works and they just don't have a lot of experience playing prepared casters, or are they not really aware of what makes certain options in this game more useful than others? Wizards may have about the highest optimization ceilings in the game, but they also have one of the lowest optimization floors—basically none of the work is done for you, and a poorly played wizard is really not going to be an asset to the party at all. If they already get why T1 classes are T1 and they just need some experience behind the wheel, then that's fine, but I really get the impression from your posts that these folks aren't really waist-deep in the optimization springs.

If they get how optimization works in the first place, what you're planning is fine. If you're trying to force optimization knowledge upon them, I don't think they're going to get it. Again, the power in the intricate options isn't super obvious if you aren't already in the right mindset. If they don't know how to use the tool, it's not likely that they'll figure it out on their own before it's too late.

Possibly the "easiest" T1 caster is the druid. The druid has the most tricks they can fall back on with no or minimal preparation: spontaneous summoning is a fantastic backup option if you happen to have picked spells poorly for a given scenario, wild shape requires no prep work (and even if finding "the best" option for a given scenario might take some book-diving, finding a simply good option is usually relatively easy), and just picking a non-subpar animal companion gives you out-of-the-box utility and a much-needed fighter analogue. Maybe consider steering them that way? The druid is a lot better about guiding you towards powerful options (even if not always to the most powerful options) just kind of automatically, and they have stronger round-by-round flexibility to take off the pressure of making good day-by-day choices.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Rogue wizard makes me think spellwarp sniper. Then split ray fun for all the d6s

To sneak attack with rays, the spell needs to have a full-round action casting time to get sneak attack more than once (Rules Compendium p42, last bullet point). So Rogue/Sorcerer is actually better, since spontaneously casting a spell with metamagic increases the casting time. You can use Invisible Spell with Scorching Ray to sneak attack on every shot without using a higher level spell slot, or Split Ray Scorching Ray to get an additional sneak attack hit.

For an Item Familiar, keep in mind that it counts as an intelligent item which makes it count as a construct and that it gets actions in combat, and that it can use those actions to activate its own abilities. So make it start as a +1 Ring of Protection (2,000 gp, full price), and upgrade it to a Ring of Invisibility with a +1 deflection bonus to AC added (MIC p234) for 10,000 gp and 800 xp. The ring can ready an action activate its own invisibility effect on the character after they've attacked, so they're invisible until they attack next turn, every round.

[DMluigi]

Druid isn't really fitting in SCAP plus our last campaign was very druidic themed even if it was only NPC (in the Eldeen Reaches were they played a Power Attack Brb/Rog/Ass and archer Ranger).

They get optimisation and can get into it (they certainly did when we were playing Vampire the Masquerade or VtM) but they only played roguish or warrior types in D&D (rogues, barbarians, fighter, paladin, ranger, monk, some PrC).

So now I dont want to confuse them too much by adding weird classes or PrC. I will check spellsniper though. I will give them lots of advice, but let them do the choices and study their spell list too like they did before in VtM. So if I suggest them DMM or Item Familiar, I'll explain them about how to use them (Extra Turning, Persistent and Quicken Spell, no turning sticks though haha; investing XP for extra item creation, invest all skill points for cheesy bonuses, have Spell Use special ability to increase action economy).

[Mike Miller]

Druid isn't really fitting in SCAP plus our last campaign was very druidic themed even if it was only NPC (in the Eldeen Reaches were they played a Power Attack Brb/Rog/Ass and archer Ranger).

They get optimisation and can get into it (they certainly did when we were playing Vampire the Masquerade or VtM) but they only played roguish or warrior types in D&D (rogues, barbarians, fighter, paladin, ranger, monk, some PrC).

So now I dont want to confuse them too much by adding weird classes or PrC. I will check spellsniper though. I will give them lots of advice, but let them do the choices and study their spell list too like they did before in VtM. So if I suggest them DMM or Item Familiar, I'll explain them about how to use them (Extra Turning, Persistent and Quicken Spell, no turning sticks though haha; investing XP for extra item creation, invest all skill points for cheesy bonuses, have Spell Use special ability to increase action economy).

Instead of gestalt, have you considered giving them each 2 characters? That way there are 4 PCs instead of just 2 gestalt. They'll probably be better off that way, given a higher action economy. I am running SCAP right now and am 1/2 way through it. We just finished chapter 6. We've had some scary fights and my group is a decent 6 PC group. I've lost track of how many PCs have died, but it has been a few at this point. I would say at least 5 deaths. I think if you run it as it is written, meaning without concern for your particular PCs, they will have trouble. I always modify modules for my group. I recommend you do the same. IMO, a party of 4 will be better than a party of 2 gestalt.

(my group is an ubercharger, a divine caster, a gish, a psion, a beguiler, and a companion-focused druid)

[DMluigi]

Instead of gestalt, have you considered giving them each 2 characters? That way there are 4 PCs instead of just 2 gestalt. They'll probably be better off that way, given a higher action economy. I am running SCAP right now and am 1/2 way through it. We just finished chapter 6. We've had some scary fights and my group is a decent 6 PC group. I've lost track of how many PCs have died, but it has been a few at this point. I would say at least 5 deaths. I think if you run it as it is written, meaning without concern for your particular PCs, they will have trouble. I always modify modules for my group. I recommend you do the same. IMO, a party of 4 will be better than a party of 2 gestalt.

(my group is an ubercharger, a divine caster, a gish, a psion, a beguiler, and a companion-focused druid)

Wow with a group like that? I guess I should ask them yeah.

Also, how do you deal with traps without trapsense? And how did you roll/buy the stats?

[Eldariel]

Wow with a group like that? I guess I should ask them yeah.

Also, how do you deal with traps without trapsense? And how did you roll/buy the stats?

Trapfinding? Well, first of all, Trapfinding is pretty common. That party has a Beguiler that has it for instance (possibly the divine caster too). Lists of Stuff has the following list:

Barbarian 3, class variant, Dungeonscape, replaces Trap Sense, see text
Rogue 1
Ranger 1, class variant, Dungeonscape, replaces Track
Beguiler 1, Player's Handbook 2
Ninja 1, Complete Adventurer
Scout 1, Complete Adventurer
Spellthief 1, Complete Adventurer
Nightsong Infiltrator 1, ecl 8, Complete Adventurer
Geometer 3, ecl 9, Complete Arcane, Traps based on writing only
Temple Raider of Olidammara 1, ecl 6, Complete Divine
Stoneblessed(Dwarf) 3, ecl 5, Races of Stone, stone traps only
Stonedeath Assassin 1, ecl 6, Races of Stone
Artificer 1, Eberron Campaign Setting, disable traps
Silverkey 1, ecl 4, Eberron: Dragonmarked, called "wardsense", works at range, see text
Factotum 1, Dungeonscape
Disciple of Dispater 2, ecl 8, Book of Vile Darkness, metal only
Kobold domain, Races of the Dragon, web enhancement
Theft Gloves, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum
Hoardstealer 1, ecl 6, Draconomicon

So, pretty much anyone with few feats or a spell or at worst a single level dip can get it. You can also find magic traps with Detect Magic and disable them with Dispel Magic or avoid them. Mechanical traps are rarely that dangerous.

[Mike Miller]

Wow with a group like that? I guess I should ask them yeah.

Also, how do you deal with traps without trapsense? And how did you roll/buy the stats?

There aren't too many traps, but I usually just let anyone who searches have a chance of finding them regardless of the trap. Then they deal with it. There was a sepia snake sigio they didn't find that froze someone underground after they dealt with the enemies. They had to drag him out with rope, it was funny.

We did 30 point buy and/or roll. Those that wanted to roll (which was most of my group), could roll. If rolls we're bad, just do 30 point buy instead.

[Anthrowhale]

DMM is notable since it comes online at level 1. Arcane Thesis is particularly potent on either Silent Image (for Shadowcasters) or (Greater) Arcane Fusion. Otherwise, it's pretty narrow, making it a poor choice compared to DMM.

[Anthrowhale]

For the purpose you have in mind, you might also want to consider Uncanny Forethought. The ability to spontaneously cast any spell known (i.e. in your spellbook) from level 1 is both powerful and forgiving of optimization mistakes.

[magic9mushroom]

Again, it depends. Item Familiar can be powerful, but it's not obviously and immediately powerful if you aren't actively looking to ramp it up. It's not powerful without any input. It opens new doors, but it doesn't do the work for you or even necessarily point you at what new tricks are out there.

Uh, it gives you free XP and gives you a huge boost to one or two skills. The skills might require a little thinking to use to best effect, but the sheer magnitude of the boost makes it powerful even if you're just using it on whatever (it's substantially better than Epic Skill Focus, which isn't the worst feat ever). And, well, name another feat that gives free XP.

And, yeah, there are the abuses of intelligent items, except without the "item fights you" problem, and those take a little work. But it's powerful right out of the box. Whether it's as powerful as Initiate of Mystra... depends on how much you're optimising each of them, how many enemy casters and AMF-users there are, and how many of the enemy casters have anti-AMF tricks available (do remember that AMF still automatically shuts down your magic items, as well as any pre-cast buffs, and that you'll be incentivising enemy casters to use Disjunction).