Help in character creation [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

chakou79

2019-03-10, 08:30 PM

Greetings to all of you.

I'm posting this because i really need your help regarding the character creation for a future game and i'm completely at a loss. First of all let me tell you that my experience in the game, in general, is minimal and in 3.5 ed, in particular, is non-existing. I'd played the role of a DM a couple of times in the past (AD&D 2nd) but even those adventures were not come to an end.
I was asked to participate in a session that will take place in about one month and i really love to do it because i've never played the game properly before, not even once. The proposal made, was me, along with another guy, to participate as guest characters to a session in the middle of an adventure (that sounds a lot like the Red Hand of Doom judging by the description) just before the start of a huge city siege. The idea behind this is that a few more PCs would come in handy for the DM at that point, plus he would give us the opportunity to jump into a game we wanted to be a part of but we were unable to do it from the beginning. The character will enter the game at Level 7 and we have been told that only core books (I assume PHB & DMG) and XPH are allowed. Additionally, I'm under the impression, although not clearly stated, that our DM wants me to keep it as simple as possible (i wouldn't go for something very complicated either) by creating a single class PC like Fighter or Ranger.
So, please i would like to hear your opinions on a character and most importantly on the level progression from 1 to 7,
I personally would only want my character to be interesting, fairly easy and fun to play and to justify his presence in the party (be of some help or pose a threat to the opponents) because there is a possibility to keep the character and continue playing until the end of the adventure. I'm not 100% sure but the existing party consists of a cleric or druid, thief or bard, paladin or fighter and a wizard.

Thank you very much in advance for your time and help.

ColorBlindNinja

2019-03-10, 08:53 PM

How do you feel about playing a Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm)?

With just those sources available, it'll be tricky to make an effective Fighter or Ranger, especially if you don't multiclass.

Psychic Warriors get access to a nice list of psionic powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#psychicWarriorPowers) and they do an excellent job in a melee role.

EDIT: If you're more interested in a caster type character, I'd recommend a Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm).

BowStreetRunner

2019-03-10, 10:12 PM

I'm going to recommend a straight Ranger because it gives you a taste of all of the major parts of the game - combat, skills, spells - without overwhelming you. (I wouldn't recommend getting into a full caster for your first time out - that includes psionic characters.)

Race: Human is the most flexible with a bonus feat and bonus skill point. Out of the core books available, there is no reason to look at any other race at this point.

Focus on ranged attacking. Get a long composite bow as your primary weapon (and probably a longsword in case you end up in melee, but try not to end up in melee). Whatever your strength bonus, make sure your bow has a rating that high to apply the damage bonus. At minimum this should be a +1 bow. If you can afford it, a mithral chain shirt gives decent protection without hampering your hide and move silently checks. Rangers can use wands of spells that are a higher level than they can currently cast, as long as the spell is on their spell list. So a wand of Cure Light Wounds is a great holdout to have in case the party healer goes down.

For your combat style you'll get Rapid Shot and Manyshot. With your other feats you'll want to pick up Point Blank Shot (a bonus for close shots and a prerequisite for Greater Manyshot), Precise Shot (to shoot into melee without having to take a major penalty), Improved Initiative (win initiative and shoot them before they close to melee range, or move to a more defensible spot), and Greater Manyshot (a nice gift from the XPH).

Put max skill ranks in Listen, Spot, Hide, Move Silently, and Survival. Use your stealth abilities to stay out of sight until combat begins and then find a good spot from which to support the party with your ranged attacks. Keep your Listen and Spot high so you don't let anyone sneak up on you. Survival is your tracking skill. With your remaining points you can take 5 ranks each in Search, Knowledge (nature), and Knowledge (dungeoneering) to get synergy bonuses to Survival checks. Any beyond that put them wherever you like.

I would prepare Entangle as the most likely spell from the core books to be useful at this stage. Ready it twice if your Wisdom is high enough for a bonus spell. You can use it to make the terrain between you and the enemy very hostile giving you plenty of time to rain arrows down on them while they try to get to you.

I like the Wolf for animal companion at this level. They can help guard you against melee attackers that try to close with you and their trip attacks can be quite useful in this regard.

Human Ranger
L1 Favored Enemy: Humanoid (goblinoid), Track, Wild Empathy, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
L2 Combat Style: Rapid Shot
L3 Endurance, Improved Initiative
L4 Animal Companion
L5 Favored Enemy: Dragon or Undead
L6 Improved Combat Style: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot (from XPH)
L7 Woodland Stride

With limited source books, this isn't going to be a very OP character, but it will give you something that is useful to the party, survivable, and allows you a chance to get a good feel for the game before diving in too deep.

EDIT: I bolded the recommendation against full casters (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, or any psionic) because, while the Giant in the Playground players all love these for their power and versatility, they are much harder to play and can be a bit overwhelming for someone still trying to get the 3.5 rules down. If you are a power-gamer who is used to handling heavy rules interaction from other systems, feel free to ignore this warning.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2019-03-10, 10:52 PM

So you need to stick to the core books plus XPH, likely no online material (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) like expanded classes (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) alternate class features. You'd like to keep the build simple, i.e. stay single-classed, though I doubt going five levels and taking a prestige class would be out of the question. You want to be useful but not redundant, and the party already has the core four roles covered.

You haven't really given any indication of what you want this character to do. Also let us know what this other new player plans to bring, if possible.

I'd say make a Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) (from the Monster Manual, a core rulebook), which gets Str -2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int +2, but is otherwise identical to a PHB Elf. Go Psion or Wizard, both need intelligence and either one would be useful.

If you can coordinate with or find out more about the party's existing wizard, this could turn out a lot better than you'd think. If he's a specialist wizard, you should specialize in a different school (or even in one of his prohibited schools), and pick different prohibited schools than he chose. This way between the two of you every school is covered. If he's not a specialist, you should still specialize. You should also try to fill out your spellbook in a way that you'll have plenty of spells he doesn't know, so you can copy spells from each other during rest times.

For a Psion, I'd go with a Kineticist since Energy Missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyMissile.htm) is easily one of the best things ever written. They nerfed it in Complete Psionic, but it looks like your group isn't using that book, so you get the un-nerfed DC on both that and Energy Stun. Use Energy Missile to target an opponent's shield, weapon, holy symbol, spell component pouch, and person, it can destroy doors, bridges, the pillars holding up the ceiling, it can even remove an opponent's pants (or just their belt, so their pants fall down around their ankles and trip them up). Time Hop can be used to make that big scary opponent's big scary sword vanish for what's effectively the rest of the fight. Be sure to take Solicit Psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/solicitPsicrystal.htm) so you won't need to spend your own turns concentrating on Control Object or Control Body.

A Psion doesn't have the armor or shield restrictions that a Wizard does. You won't be proficient with either, but if the armor check penalty is zero then there's no drawback for not being proficient with it, think of Frodo and the mithril shirt that can be worn like clothes. A darkwood (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#darkwood) (DMG) heavy shield and mithral chain shirt both have an armor check penalty of zero, and you should make both +1 magical because it's cheap. Other items in the XPH you should consider are Boots of Skating (+15 ft. land speed, no bonus uphill but +30 if going downhill), and later goals should include a Third Eye Sense and Torc of Power Preservation. Otherwise get a ring of sustenance, headband of intellect, cloak of resistance, and probably a masterwork bow and sword since you're an elf.

chakou79

2019-03-12, 05:07 PM

Hello there.

First of all i'd like to thank you all for your answers and please accept my apologies for my late response.

Although tempting, i will not address every point each of you made, but instead i will pick some of your key points and try to say more about the situation which is indeed very restrictive. I think it will be more helpful that way.

So, the rulebooks are the ones mentioned, BUT (as i learned yesterday) because of the setting and the theme/feel the DM is trying to set and due to the fact that we are in the middle of the adventure there are also the following restrains:

The PC must be Human of NG (or maybe LG, LN) alignment. The allowed classes are Ranger, Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Cleric (in order of DM's preference). Dual-classing is also allowed but not recommended (for me or in general i do not know). Prestige classes are not ruled out but it will take some further discussion. The level as said it would be L7. Magic items are rare. Whatever we may think must be found in one of the two major towns.

Now as far as i am concerned, i do not have any particular problem playing anything (psion, psychic warrior etc., to name a few of your recommendations) but i'd rather keep it to what is already somewhat familiar to me. I barely remember the core classes of AD&D, a quick reading of the D&D 3.5 PHB will refresh my memory (i don't believe the classes to be that different) but it would be daunting for me to read a whole new rulebook.
Biffoniacus_Furiou you are absolutely right. It was a big omission by myself not to tell what i would want my character to do. Well, profession-wise, i would like my character to be a hunter with the broad meaning of the word. I mean to be able to track down and catch/retrieve/acquire anyone or anything. As for his physical build, I'm thinking of him as being a ridiculously die-hard person, although within normal boundaries. I'm not talking about anything beyond the real world, nothing supernatural or superhuman. Simply put, someone who, even when it seems that his is doomed, he somehow will be able to stand up again and fight once more. Maybe he is too quick to be hurt or maybe he is just lucky, i really don't know but you get the point.
I realise that everything suggests the Ranger, but honestly I do not have labelled the concept in my mind. Any approach to the above description is equally acceptable and maybe even more interesting. In addition, a problem I always have with archetypical Rangers of the RPGs is that I am not too fond of archery and ranged attacks as well as of the animal companion idea.

Thank you once again.

DMVerdandi

2019-03-12, 05:53 PM

Whelp... Unfortunately it seems you have been shoehorned into a game my friend. I am going to be candid. For the most part, yes 3.5 is a rules heavy game, and has a lot of content, but a half-competent DM should be able to handle all of the player selected content if they can handle that from the players handbook. For the most part, it is the player that really is bogged down with the choice anyways.

From my experience, it isn't a fear or lack of experience that really causes DM's to ban content, but rather a perceived deviation from their ideal world. I have never been a fan of bans like this, because many times, the most balanced and best content comes at the end of the life cycle of a game. See, tome of battle.

I also think it's REALLY kind of lame that the DM has given you HIS preference of classes you should take. If you are going to restrict them to a couple of books, you should be given full advantage of said books, not be forced into picking what the DM wants you to play. I'd rather play a video game than be railroaded into someone's amateur nonsense.

All those things aside, I WOULD steer you into picking the stronger classes rather than weaker ones, because the game is actually backwards in difficulty. The more options you have, the EASIER the game is to learn and to stay alive. Likewise, the more limits you impose on yourself, the harder the game gets, and unless the dm is literally holding your hand, the harder and harder it is to overcome challenges and stay relevant.

Think of it like bicycles. You think having multiple gears on a bike makes it more difficult to ride, but they actually make it easier. The single geared bikes are the ones that are pure hell when getting on difficult terrain.

Now, you said you want to play a character that
1. Is good at hunting things
2. Is resilient
3.Is mundane [Which is completely abnormal in a magical world. It's very special snowflake tbh]

Normally, Ranger would be the class people would point you in the direction in, but out of the PHB, it's not FANTASTIC. It's kind of better than a fighter sort of, but it kind of isn't.
I say you drop the mundane schtick. This isn't the game for that.

I would suggest...
1.Druid
2.Cleric
3.Battle Sorcerer.

Here is my logic.
With the druid, you have native healing, even though it isn't great, so you can heal yourself. Nature based magic, so you could play it up as anything really. "Taoist" alchemy, returning to humanity's original state as ruler of the nature, whatever.
You can turn into animals, you can cast 9th level spells, you have decent HP. It's good.

With cleric, you again have decent HP, Can cast spells, and can heal yourself.

With battle sorcerer, Decent HP, Can cast spells, CANNOT really heal yourself, but is a more hearty sorcerer
Instead of the in book draconic flavoring, this can also be seen as perfection of the human condition. True strike is developing enough insight so that you don't miss an attack. Bull's strength is calling up your inner reserves to lift HUEG. Teleport is... Running really fast >_>

Those three don't just have a little bit of everything, they have a LOT of everything, which is good, because it helps you survive longer, which means you can role-play longer, which means you don't have to keep rebuilding a character, or begging for rule 0 interventionism.
Playing a mundane character is hard-mode, bruv. If you make a mistake with druid or cleric spells, or an animal companion, those can be changed with a night's rest. If you pick stupid feats for your fighter, it's permanent.

If you don't know what something is, Google is your best friend. Spells in 3.5 are not hard to understand at all. If you understand final fantasy 1's mage casting, you understand 3.5.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2019-03-12, 08:19 PM

Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) from the Monster Manual, which gets Str +2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int -2. Go Ranger 3/ Barbarian 2/ Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) 2 starting out. Continue taking more Horizon Walker levels until you get the terrain masteries you want, then continue taking whichever class you prefer.

Terrain mastery from horizon walker should be desert and underground, then pick up plains, Hills, and Forest, and your planar terrain masteries should definitely include Shifting and Cavernous before you stop taking levels in it. Your favored enemy should be goblinoids or giants, whichever you prefer. Your ranger combat style should be archery to get rapid shot for when you need to make ranged attacks, but you'll want power attack and combat reflexes and use a glaive as your primary weapon. Your last feat can be your choice of Diehard, Cleave, Improved Initiative, or whatever else you think you'll want.

You can use wands of any ranger spells with even a single level in the class, so get a wand of cure light wounds for healing up between encounters. Otherwise +1 mithral breastplate and a +1 weapon, with a ring of protection and cloak of resistance, should be available and within your budget. A 7th level character should have 19,000 gp worth of gear and cash, after all.

I've realized this is surprisingly similar to the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) build, but a wood elf probably doesn't have the Int for combat expertise.

rrwoods

2019-03-13, 11:17 AM

I second the recommendation not to pay a game where the DM is choosing five classes and banning all the rest.

Now, to be fair to the DM, he probably doesn’t see it as banning 100+ classes, but that’s what’s happening. He’s chosen less than half the classes from just the Players Handbook! Not to mention the restriction on multiclassing and prestige classing (the latter is technically optional but it’s such a huge portion of what makes the game fun).

Try to find another game, if you can. Sucks that your first exposure is so awful, but No Game Is Better Than A Bad Game.

bean illus

2019-03-13, 12:55 PM

About the restrictions: I would cooperate fully.
Anybody can grab a module and roll the dice. Sometimes a DM can have a lot of work and time into a story, plot, and setting. I would enjoy seeing all that work, and be willing to collaborate on something interesting.

I don't really enjoy playing ball, but I would play ball at almost any opportunity. But I'm not great at ball, and if it became too competitive I wouldn't enjoy it. some people only want to play competitive ball, but I like all my friends to play, and not all my friends are good at ball.

I AM good at chess, but rarely play to win. I could beat 80% of people 50 games in a row, but prefer to offer them chess lessons instead. Then I openly discuss my strategy, and point out the counter move they should employ.

The point is; that I choose the people that I want to enjoy my time with, and accept them for who they are, while hoping they accept me for who I am.

About the character: The difficulties are real. At 7th level and above the need for Magic becomes increasingly imperative in the mechanics of 3.5. Ranger is a great choice for all the above reasons.

But as I've mentioned repeatedly on this board, cleric is easy to fluff and build as a physical character. It is short on skills, but even that can be dabbled with through spells, etc.
Since you're new to 3.5, I'll go into a little more detail about what I mean, and how to accomplish it.

This works even better with another cleric in the party (who maintains max DCs), because the first thing is minimizing your casting stat.
In this case you would want to cast 4th level spells, or 5th if the game continues. Throw a 14 in wis (with level ups to 15), and be done with it, then you're free to build to str/dex/con (or whatever).
You'll be forced to avoid spells that have DCs. If there's another cleric, he can do the healing while you heal only yourself, and fluff it as a hit point recovery mechanic.

All of a sudden you're a fighter, but with less feats and more options. Level 7 is crucial because you get the spell divine power, which raises your Bab to character level, which lets you melee as well as the fighter.

Str 16, your fighting.
Dex 12, an AC boost, but your wearing armor.
Con 14, HP for your holy fighter.
Int 14, skill points for fun?
Wiz 14, minimum magic?
Cha 8, let the other cleric turn undead.

... or just go ranger ...

The Kool

2019-03-13, 01:06 PM

Pay no mind to anyone telling to buck this DM and his rules. The DM knows you, knows your familiarity level with the system, knows his party, knows his world, and if he has a recommendation then there's a good reason for it. Trust is a major factor at the table, I always vote to trust until shown you shouldn't. On the subject of content, you should not feel like you need to optimize, based on what he has recommended. Some may suggest variant races that are from the Monster Manual or such, but it sounds like you'll do just fine if you build straight out of the PHB. Ranger is a very real and very good choice for reasons given above. If you love playing a brute force melee type, then go Barbarian. If you love delving into the complexities of the system (not a stretch... you did go to the internet for help, after all) then dive headfirst into the Cleric and don't look back.

zlefin

2019-03-13, 02:14 PM

The Kool

2019-03-13, 02:29 PM

forcing core-only mundanes can def cause problems though.

This is true. However, we've know that we have a player brand new to the system who sounds a bit overwhelmed (though I could be wrong), so I would do the exact same of recommending they stick to core. If it's forced conformation, on the other hand, that's a different story. Ultimately, the DM is allowed to lay out what the restriction for his group are (especially if it's already an established group), and if you aren't going to enjoy playing within those rules then you can move on. But if you are, then it isn't forced, and there's nothing wrong with it.

chakou79

2019-03-13, 02:56 PM

Well, i think "The Kool" said it all for me. I'm sure that there is absolutely no bad intention behind the restrictions our DM has set for us. He is experienced, the world is totally home-brewed and very low in magic maybe even some of the mechanics are borrowed from other systems (i don't know that for sure) and the game is in progress. So i wouldn't be too suspicious about him. I'm OK with the idea to have only those handful of classes at my disposal and i'm sure that he won't have a problem either if i eventually choose to go for class mixing or be interested in using a prestige class later. My main concern is should i throw in some levels of more than one of the given class or choose one class and keep it throughout the 7 levels? will the advantages of multi-classing outweigh the penalties? Is it worth multi-classing if the max achievable level in the end (of the adventure/campaign) isn't that high?

By the way, my stats are 18, 15, 14, 14, 14 & 13 (unassigned) if that helps.

Is any of those classes harder to role-play than others?

"Biffoniacus_Furiou" i can't really understand the concept of the horizon tripper (your version or whatever version for that matter).

The Kool

2019-03-13, 03:05 PM

If you choose to play a full casting class such as cleric, do not multiclass. Multiclassing may provide some neat immediate benefit, or some cool abilities, but if you're playing a caster the game expects you to have access to spells at a certain level. If you hold yourself back from that, you will feel it. If you're playing a martial character, adding 2 levels of Fighter can really help a build get on it's featfeet, but only if you have something you're trying to do with it that needs a lot of feats. I'd recommend staying with one class, but I also don't know as much about it as some others do so it might be pointed out that I'm missing something blatant.

BowStreetRunner

2019-03-13, 03:17 PM

Human Barbarian
- can definitely be a hunter. Survival is a class skill and Track can be picked up with one of your open feats.
- fits your description as physically tough through d12 HD and even has Damage Reduction 1/- already.
- the whole stand up and fight when doomed can be accomplished with the Rage ability you can do 2/day already.

Troacctid

2019-03-13, 03:20 PM

The thing with Horizon Walker is that the martial classes in the PHB have a tendency to be frontloaded. You get some good stuff at the early levels and then it goes downhill real fast from there. As a result, you're strongly incentivized to hop into a prestige class that will provide you with some actual good abilities at higher levels, rather than the dead or mostly-dead levels you'd get from your base class. Assassin, blackguard, dragon disciple, horizon walker, and shadowdancer can all fill this role. Horizon walker is most notable for its planar terrain mastery, particularly shifting, which is a super awesome ability; it's a good choice if you're expecting the game to go beyond level 10.

chakou79

2019-03-13, 03:25 PM

So, based on what you said "Kool" in the case of Cleric is better to go Cleric 7, but with the other four classes it might be beneficial to mix some of them, right?
Is there any difference to choose let's say "Ranger 3/Barbarian 2" (as mentioned) over "Barbarian 2/ Ranger 3" or even "Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Ranger 1" etc when multi-classing?

Troacctid

2019-03-13, 03:34 PM

Ranger 3 gives you Endurance as a bonus feat, which you need for Horizon Walker. Barbarian doesn't actually have any class features at 3rd level, so there's no point even taking the 3rd level if you're not planning to continue in it any further.

ColorBlindNinja

2019-03-13, 03:36 PM

Barbarian doesn't actually have any class features at 3rd level, so there's no point even taking the 3rd level if you're not planning to continue in it any further.

What about Greater Rage at level 11?

EDIT: Never mind, I thought you meant Barbarians don't get any class features past level 3. :smallredface:

chakou79

2019-03-13, 05:40 PM

Troacctid

2019-03-13, 05:47 PM

"Troadctid" thanks for the clarification and please excuse my ignorance, but even with Barbarian 2/Ranger 3 you get the feat at the third ranger level, don't you? After all you will pick the HW at level 6 and the prerequisites will have been met right? So, is there any reason to start with the ranger class?

Hmm, maybe next time i should do more reading before posting and bothering you with novice questions.
At 1st level, you get quadruple the normal skill points, and your hit die is maximized. So it's beneficial to put the class with more skill points and/or a larger hit die at level 1 in order to take advantage. In this case, if you put ranger first, you get an extra 8 skill points; if you put barbarian first, you get an extra 2 hit points (on average). Usually the skill points are more valuable, so I would put ranger first.

Albions_Angel

2019-03-13, 06:06 PM

Im with Kool as well. We dont know WHY the DM restricted it to those classes, but maybe its a low op game and everyone is a poorly constructed squishy caster and the party really needs beat sticks or melee damage dealers? He could be an ass too. But as we dont know, we have to respect that.

For me, barbarian is the way to go here. All the way. Those d12 hitdice are super nice, and by level 7, barbarian is a single target power house. Its very easy to build one. Classic two handed style, power attack, cleave, etc.

One thing you might want to ask the DM is why he is suggesting just those classes. Tell him you arnt trying to argue, you just want to know if he is:

Restricting you to easy classes to play for your benefit
Plugging holes in a party that desperately needs help
Preserving a story point he considers very important
Some other reason

The top option is good to know because it shuts us up, and stops the playground arguing.
The second option is helpful to us. If he turns round and goes "yeah, they need a beatstick", we know they need a barbarian or a cleric, for example.
Option 3, well, the playground will bicker about that, but you have to respect it.
Some other reason might raise alarm bells but they have to be raised inside you, not coming from us.

Its also worth asking if online content is allowed, and also asking about the SRD. Nearly all games allow the SRD even if they say Core, because the two terms are nearly interchangeable. But one big difference is Core doesnt included Unearthed Arcana, while SRD does. And if UA is in play, then so are the barbarian variants that are a little different, even if they arnt more powerful.

The Kool

2019-03-14, 07:50 AM

Haha, I would think point 1 on your list would be one of the most hotly contended points here. "Tell him to stuff it because you can totally handle this... just follow my advice!"

UA is a tricky beast. It's not exactly balanced and many DMs won't allow it, but he's right that if it's on the SRD then it's worth asking about. Boar in particular if you want to be very tanky, though it really starts to show at level 7 and above.

As a general question, why does no one ever seem to go straight barbarian? DR increases and improved rage stats are actually halfway decent.

BowStreetRunner

2019-03-14, 08:41 AM

As a general question, why does no one ever seem to go straight barbarian? DR increases and improved rage stats are actually halfway decent.At most tables where I've played, they do. In the Playground however everyone is so into Optimization that they always tend to go straight for the full-caster classes. I keep seeing threads where the original poster is like "hi, I've never played a RPG before of any kind and these rules are all too complex for me to sort out, can you help build a character for me that would be easy to play?" and the Playground replies with "wizard 5/cloistered cleric 1/incantatrix 3/dweomerkeeper 4/initiate of the seven fold veil 7 FTW!!!"

The Kool

2019-03-14, 08:50 AM

You're... not wrong. But there's also something to be said for the potential of anyone who goes to forums for help.

bean illus

2019-03-14, 10:00 AM

At most tables where I've played, they do. In the Playground however everyone is so into Optimization that they always tend to go straight for the full-caster classes. I keep seeing threads where the original poster is like "hi, I've never played a RPG before of any kind and these rules are all too complex for me to sort out, can you help build a character for me that would be easy to play?" and the Playground replies with "wizard 5/cloistered cleric 1/incantatrix 3/dweomerkeeper 4/initiate of the seven fold veil 7 FTW!!!"

Lol. So true. Multiple times for every asking.

TalonOfAnathrax

2019-03-14, 11:43 AM

As a general question, why does no one ever seem to go straight barbarian? DR increases and improved rage stats are actually halfway decent.
I have never seen anyone go straight barbarian for long, typically for character or power reasons.

Character reasons: Every barbarian I've seen had fluff that could also fit ranger. Players got sick of being a barbarian but not being good at things like "dealing with animals" or "having decent skill points", and so tend to take a few ranger levels for Wild Empathy and various Alernative Ranger combat styles. They rarely go far enough to get spellcasting (if their character wanted spellcasting they'd have taken Druid instead!) so on my tables I often see Ranger/Babarian multiclasses. Often racial paragon classes go in with Barbarian, because "I wanted a dwarf barbarian, make my barbarian dwarfier!"
This is usually a poor choice mechanically (although Ranger Alternate Class Features can be interesting, and sometimes having backup archery feats is nice) but if it's what the player wants and everyone isn't playing full casters...

Power reasons: Melee feats are cool. Melee players want them. Therefore I see a lot of barbarians taking Fighter levels.
For similar reasons, Warblade dips are common enough. I'm not a huge fan of that, but then I'm not a fan of barbarians either. To each their own.

Honestly though, once Extra Rage becomes available at a table I see lots of players dumping Barbarian after level 1 or 2 and then going into other melee classes, spending feats to get more Rages per day. Why not?

Eldariel

2019-03-14, 11:46 AM

There's one way to go that I think serves both ends and that would be the Cleric. Now, yes, Cleric is a full caster but that does not necessarily entail "complex". It means you have multiple options, yes, but a Cleric built for raw numbers can be very efficient, a savior in a pinch and quite simple to play. Focus on simple spells that pump your numbers and keep stats for buffed and non-buffed state. To that end, the simplest would be a warrior Cleric, perhaps of Heironeous or Hextor. Pick up the War-domain, use their favoured weapon, go to town. You could easily be a Hunter of Hextor seeking the greatest game or Blood Knight-style seeking to challenge the greatest of enemies in a fair fight. The only downside to this would be that you would be restricted to channeling negative energy, which basically won't be of much use unless you put your mind to it, but it shouldn't really matter; when playing it simple, turning/rebuking undead is simply not something you do anyways.

Hextor has the advantage of allowing evil spells. Thus, my idea for a build that has all-day buffs (thus minimising the need for bookkeeping and complex spells in battle while still getting respectable numbers). Play a hunter, sacrifice your game to power your spells. Cast Death Knell (on e.g. something from Summon Monster I or something you've hunted) every morning: this increases your caster level by +1. Then just cast Magic Vestment on your armor and shield (granting them both +2 enchantment bonus) and Greater Magic Weapon on your weapon. This is good for significant AC and to hit bonuses.

That said, you had your own idea. With your theme, I'd recommend a Cleric of Fharlanghn or simply a Cleric of an ideal (that is, one that doesn't worship a deity but an ideal instead). Fharlanghn offers the Travel-domain and Luck is a great second pick. Travel-domain gives you the "Survival"-skill to hunt. Alternatively, simple Cleric of Hunt picking Travel and Trickery-domains to open up the skills Survival and Hide. If you go this route, pick up either Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency as a feat (Spiked Chain is the classic option but you could also go for martial weapons like Glaive, Greatsword or company; Longbow wouldn't be a bad pick either), wield that and keep a backup ranged weapon (a thrown weapon unless you're proficient in Longbows).

Assign stats as:
18 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
14 Int
15 Wis
13 Cha

Characters get bonus attributes on level-up every 4 levels, so raise your Wisdom from 15 to 16. Then craft/purchase a Periapt of Wisdom +2. This puts your Wisdom at 18. Now then, Clerics get 4+1, 3+1, 2+1, and 1+1 spells. 18 Wis gives you a bonus spell on each level.

Cast all-day buffs in the morning. Your spells could look like:
1. Summon Monster I (for sacrifice), Divine Favor, Divine Favor, Divine Favor, Divine Favor, Domain Slot
2. Resist Energy, Resist Energy, Spiritual Weapon, Death Knell, Domain Slot
3. Magic Vestment, Magic Vestment, Dispel Magic, Domain Slot
4. Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Power, Divine Power [War Domain]

This way you enter a fight, and cast Divine Power if it looks like the enemies aren't pushovers. If they look like pushovers, Divine Favor will suffice. If you have extra time, cast both. You've got:
+2 weapon
+2 armor
+2 shield (if you're wielding a shield; you could also get Craft Magic Arms and Armor and try and craft an animated shield; it's affordable if expensive at 9000gp)

With 18 Strength, 14 Dex, 14 Con you're a fairly buff guy in combat. Your BAB is +5, your strength is additional +4 and your weapon +2 for a total of +11. If you cast Divine Power, you get additional +6 strength and your BAB goes up to 7/2; this means you attack at +16 and a second time at +11. Your weapon does...assuming Greatsword for example, 2d6+6 Strength+2 Weapon = 2d6+8 damage. If you cast Divine Power, this goes up to 2d6+10+2 = 2d6+12. You can further pick up Power Attack; when you cast buffs you can afford to lower your attack bonus and still have a decent shot at hitting.

You could actually also learn to trip but that's a bit complex so perhaps just focus on hitting hard for now. If you want, you could go for mounted combat and just take Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge and pick up Lance as your weapon if you want to hit hard; a lancer could mounted charge for (1d10+8)x3 = 3d10+24 with Spirited Charge even without using buff spells. Hell, if you have Hextor as your patron, you could Lesser Planar Ally (one day service should suffice) for a Nightmare to have a badass flying horse whose hooves shoot fire (ignore its other abilities, just keep it stylish and fast flying). Other patrons have less awesome options. You could also just buy a Hippogriff to ride (they go for 4000gp to buy and train). That would take up your feats but would make for impressive numbers without too much complexity (admittedly having a second creature to keep a track of could be too complex though, but as you ride it, it should mostly just serve as your movement speed). Alternatively, a simple mount of any kind would serve with you just casting Air Walk on it when needed (you'd probably want to keep a Scroll of Air Walk around too).

Of course, just going on foot is also a fine alternative. It means you've got some open feats floating, but Power Attack and MWP/EWP are fine options and then you can pick up like Craft feats or something. On this level, metamagic isn't that interesting yet and as you don't offensively cast, Spell Penetration isn't very useful. Dodge is just a bad feat. You could always pick up Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot if you wanted to go archery; Combat Expertise and Improved Trip would be fine if you felt like learning that. You can also pick up Track. You should be decent at it even without Survival but if you picked Travel-domain, you could also max out Survival for extra tracking prowess. You of course have spells that aid in that too (such as Locate Object; if you land an arrow or whatever, you can hunt your target to the ends of the earth).

In short:
Clerics are awesome and can do anything. Clerics can also be kept simple if you focus on self-buffing and just attacking. Thus I recommend a Cleric. Never hurts the party to have one more and it's a great chassis on its own. Compared to Ranger, you are less dependent on the skills subsystem, which I frankly find more complex than spells at least at first. Thus, Cleric gets you a light touch on the skill system (you can e.g. get Hide and Survival to go with Concentration, Spellcraft and perhaps Knowledge: Nature) while allowing you to pick up the choice spells to try that system (Clerics are nice in that they simply know all their spells and can pick whatever so you don't need to worry; just pick what you want and try).

You get enough feats to get basic fighting proficiency and then:
- Crafting
- Mounted Combat
- Tripping

as the best options. Crafting is of course nice in that the numbers are already included in your character; thus less complexity in combat. But go down whichever route you'd prefer. But yeah, given these parameters, I think the happy medium that allows you to get acquainted with everything in the game while also being respectably powerful and useful would be Cleric. I think the DM doesn't want you bogging down the combat so keep it simple: cast a buff spell and go to town. Keep a separate cheat sheet with your stats with the key buffs (Divine Favor, Divine Power) on and off and the rest should fall in place nicely. Resist Energy is probably nice to have and it doesn't really take extra bookkeeping; just cast it if you run into Dragons or whatever rolling an elemental attack at you.

EDIT: Barbarian would definitely be my second pick. Straight Barbarian is fine in Core, certainly the best single-classed non-caster build (and Barbarian/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple gets the best numbers if multiclassing) simply because Str bonuses allow interacting with the combat maneuvers, which are one of the few things non-casters can be rather good at in a Core game. However, I feel Cleric offers you a bit more to get into the play, it's hard to go wrong with one and if you do continue, it remains strong throughout with spells to solve the most common problems.

rrwoods

2019-03-14, 01:27 PM

and the Playground replies with "wizard 5/cloistered cleric 1/incantatrix 3/dweomerkeeper 4/initiate of the seven fold veil 7 FTW!!!"
No, no they really don’t. No one ever ever does this. For as much of a reputation the optimization community has for always suggesting the most powerful possible option, it happens basically never.

chakou79

2019-03-14, 06:00 PM

"Albions_Angel" to answer your question i would say it's a bit of all of the reasons you mentioned.
The main reason according to the DM is the setting itself (what would be realistic and at what frequency) and the fact that i will get into a campaign that is already in progress.
The reason he puts the ranger first (among the five given classes) is because he feels it will suit to the game better based of the fixed party* (he insists not to let this statement force me to choose this class, in any way).
The reason the barbarian and cleric come last to his list is that he thinks they will be difficult to role-play them (further discussion must be made).
For me it's not worth paying that much of attention to the reasoning behind those restrictions; they simply are there and i'm trying to deal with it. I trust the DM and it's enough for me the fact that he constantly tells me that if i feel very limited or i already have a concept in my mind that cannot be supported by these limitations he is surely open for discussion and willing to help me out.

* Existing party info: Two warriors with quite different characteristics (one human, the other halfling), one scout (halfling), a human with strange powers (obviously a caster of some kind), one wealthy human merchant with not so clear role carrying a crossbow (bard?) and a dwarf warrior with healing powers (most likely cleric... maybe druid? Nah!). Oh! one of them is a NPC; i'm guessing that would be the crossbow guy.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see that many proposals/ideas were thrown to the table so far... I really thank you for that!
To summarize, I see that you propose...

1) Cleric 7 (i wouldn't have thought to put 18 in STR and not in WIS "Eldariel")
2) Barbarian 7
3) Even Ranger 7 (by "BowStreetRunner") although if I get it right most of you would do two or three levels of ranger and then something else instead.
4) Nothing about fighter or rogue as a starting class (i suppose they could be used for multi-class though)

To be honest spells (spell system in general) are overwhelming to me, but on the other hand the Ranger path is confusing too (where do i assign my stats? should i go straight to L7? - probably not as explained - What class to choose next? Archery or melee?).

I told you what i don't like about the ranger. If i could eliminate those few things (trade the animal companion for something else) and manage to transform the character from a "jack of all trades master of none" to "Jack ... master of one" then i would definitely go for it as somehow I feel more comfortable to role-play something like that.

Eldariel

2019-03-15, 12:59 AM

I see that many proposals/ideas were thrown to the table so far... I really thank you for that!
To summarize, I see that you propose...

1) Cleric 7 (i wouldn't have thought to put 18 in STR and not in WIS "Eldariel")
2) Barbarian 7
3) Even Ranger 7 (by "BowStreetRunner") although if I get it right most of you would do two or three levels of ranger and then something else instead.
4) Nothing about fighter or rogue as a starting class (i suppose they could be used for multi-class though)

To be honest spells (spell system in general) are overwhelming to me, but on the other hand the Ranger path is confusing too (where do i assign my stats? should i go straight to L7? - probably not as explained - What class to choose next? Archery or melee?).

I told you what i don't like about the ranger. If i could eliminate those few things (trade the animal companion for something else) and manage to transform the character from a "jack of all trades master of none" to "Jack ... master of one" then i would definitely go for it as somehow I feel more comfortable to role-play something like that.

Roleplay options aren't really that hard as long as you fluff what you want. Ranger, Barbarian and Cleric, for instance, can have the exact same fluff here. Any of those classes can be built as the master of the wilderness, the hunter (of the weak/the wicked/the strong/whatever strikes your fancy), the wilderness guy, etc. Every one of them has access to Survival, a decent number of skill points, and martial prowess. Your class doesn't determine your character, after all. You can roleplay it as you wish. You can be a guy who can let loose in combat becoming frighteningly strong (can be a Cleric casting Divine Power or a Barbarian using Rage), you can be a hunter and a master of the wilderness (could be a Cleric, a Barbarian or a Ranger), you can be pretty much anything.

I wouldn't normally suggest going Strength over Wisdom on a Cleric but in the effort to keep things simple for you, I suggest just focusing on smashing face and using spells to augment that. With the loadout I gave you, your spells aren't that different from Barbarian's Rage. That's one of the reasons I think Cleric would be a great class too: once you have the hang of the general gist of the things given to you here, you can switch your daily spell loadout as you feel like. This allows you to experiment and slowly get acclimated to the spells. This versatility is one of the reasons I recommend the Cleric: skills and feats can't be traded around but you can switch your spell loadout daily allowing you to experiment with e.g. summoning, offensive spellcasting, support spells, planar calling and the self-buffing style I recommended. You can stick to this for however long you want and just jump to the different subcategories when you feel like exploring (even just one spell of each can help).

Actually, one more option exists: putting that 18 into Dexterity and going Archer Cleric. This way you'd still be pretty strong in melee but also at range. That would take your feats:

MWP: Longbow
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Track/Precise Shot (depending on whether you want to be able to Track in spite of it not probably being featured in this campaign at this point; and to track, you can always use e.g. Planar Ally to call something with scent)

18 Dex this way. That would not be bad either though you'd be more reliant on Dex-boosters and perhaps Dex-boosting spells. Your damage would come mostly from your spells (Divine Favor and again, Divine Power; you need two different bows, one for Divine Power use and one for Divine Favor but that's okay as you can Greater Magic Weapon the arrows instead and use them with either).

With Ranger, I feel the following problem:
- Favored Enemy is a lot to keep track of and really random in whether it will be relevant in the campaign or not.
- Your spells are mostly offensive/utility in nature. There's no easy backroute to "self-buffing caster" in Core.
- You rely a lot on your skills. Remembering to use skills and figuring out what you need is not simple especially since you don't have a shot at reworking those later.
- The Animal Companion is kind of a drag.

I can help you with the rest though: definitely pick up Archery combat style and just use two-handed weapon if you wanna melee. Two-weapon fighting is pretty weak unless you're a Rogue and even there, you need to hit boosters. This is one of the reasons I wouldn't recommend the Rogue, btw. The skill system is a lot to take in and they rely on it fully, and their biggest strength is Use Magic Device, which is perhaps the single most complex aspect of the game. It's also hard to play a melee character with d6 HD and who relies on flanking/surprise to deal damage (and their ranged prowess is limited to 30' and restricted by enemy types).

In short, I think both Ranger and Rogue are a tad too complex for a starter. I'd definitely say they're advanced classes. Fighter, on the other hand, is a tad samey and really, there's no reason to run a Fighter in Core if you can run a Barbarian instead. Barbarian does the same, better, while also giving you the skill points and skills for the theme you're suggesting. Again, work with the DM and tell him you'd like to roleplay the character as you would regardless of the class. Ranger, Cleric or Barb can pray to their god/ideal/whatever for luck on the hunt just the same.

bean illus

2019-03-15, 11:37 AM

Actually, one more option exists: putting that 18 into Dexterity and going Archer Cleric. This way you'd still be pretty strong in melee but also at range. That would take your feats:

MWP: Longbow
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Track/Precise Shot (depending on whether you want to be able to Track in spite of it not probably being featured in this campaign at this point; and to track, you can always use e.g. Planar Ally to call something with scent)

Iirc, a wood elf gets +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int. Limits the 'skilled cleric' somewhat, but gets mwp long bow, longsword, while elf domain gives PBS.

With Ranger, I feel the following problem:
- <snip>
- You rely a lot on your skills. Remembering to use skills and figuring out what you need is not simple especially since you don't have a shot at reworking those later.
- The Animal Companion is kind of a drag.

<snip>
. Two-weapon fighting is pretty weak unless you're a Rogue and even there, you need to hit boosters. This is one of the reasons I wouldn't recommend the Rogue, btw. The skill system is a lot to take in and they rely on it fully, and their biggest strength is Use Magic Device, which is perhaps the single most complex aspect of the game. It's also hard to play a melee character with d6 HD and who relies on flanking/surprise to deal damage (and their ranged prowess is limited to 30' and restricted by enemy types).

It's true that skill use needs a busy, creative, attentive mind. The best skill monkeys have that as a personality trait.
Whereas, as a beginner, it's easy to understand that a +2 buff spell, or a -2 debuff on the opponent, is a useful thing to do.

Rogue is also tactical, as is pointed out. A full understanding of flanking, feinting, twf, skills, and even spells/umd are needed. It's almost a bit deceptive in that it's easily more complex than say, a barbarian, fighter, or a self buffing cleric Archer.

In short, I think both Ranger and Rogue are a tad too complex for a starter. <snip>

. Again, work with the DM and tell him you'd like to roleplay the character as you would regardless of the class. Ranger, Cleric or Barb can pray to their god/ideal/whatever for luck on the hunt just the same.

Remember this. Start at what you want, and build to it. Ask yourself;

1. Do I want ranged melee first, and close-quarters melee second? Or vice versa?
2. Do I want to take part in each and every conversation with NPCs (social skills) and never ever get left out of non-combat encounters? Or would I rather not have to memorize the DMs Encyclopedia of Lore?
3. Am I going to be comfortable trading hit points with the bad guys when my companions start falling at my side? Or would I rather be rummaging through my toolbox, and tossing things over the front liners at the bad guys (while keeping invisibility tucked under my elbow for retreat).

Honestly, I still recommend building a minimum wisdom cleric. If you haven't read the spells "Divine Power" and "Divine Favor", do so now.

Assign stats as: Wood elf
14 Str +2 = 16
18 Dex +2 =20
14 Con -2 =12 (you heal & have great AC)
14 Int -2 = 12 (spells give skill boost)
15 Wis +0=15 (+ level ups, +2 item)= enough
13 Cha -2 = 11 (turn undead for the other cleric)

Get long bow and longsword for free. Elf domain is point blank shot for free. War is Weapon Focus for free (why not).

Rapid shot, greater manyshot, etc. You're an A+ bowman, a B grade swordsman, hard to hit, self healer with great saves.

Or ... go ranger?

Eldariel

2019-03-15, 12:15 PM

Iirc, a wood elf gets +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int. Limits the 'skilled cleric' somewhat, but gets mwp long bow, longsword, while elf domain gives PBS.

He said Core-only Human only though. Elf domain isn't on the table and neither is Wood Elf. Not that it matters too much since in Core, the value of each individual feat goes way down so taking some weaker feats isn't that big of a deal. I realise much of the information he gave on the character creation rules is spread across multiple replies and in somewhat hard-to-find locations so I collected all of it here:

The character will enter the game at Level 7 and we have been told that only core books (I assume PHB & DMG) and XPH are allowed. Additionally, I'm under the impression, although not clearly stated, that our DM wants me to keep it as simple as possible (i wouldn't go for something very complicated either) by creating a single class PC like Fighter or Ranger.

So, the rulebooks are the ones mentioned, BUT (as i learned yesterday) because of the setting and the theme/feel the DM is trying to set and due to the fact that we are in the middle of the adventure there are also the following restrains:

The PC must be Human of NG (or maybe LG, LN) alignment. The allowed classes are Ranger, Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Cleric (in order of DM's preference). Dual-classing is also allowed but not recommended (for me or in general i do not know). Prestige classes are not ruled out but it will take some further discussion. The level as said it would be L7. Magic items are rare. Whatever we may think must be found in one of the two major towns.

Now as far as i am concerned, i do not have any particular problem playing anything (psion, psychic warrior etc., to name a few of your recommendations) but i'd rather keep it to what is already somewhat familiar to me. I barely remember the core classes of AD&D, a quick reading of the D&D 3.5 PHB will refresh my memory (i don't believe the classes to be that different) but it would be daunting for me to read a whole new rulebook.
Biffoniacus_Furiou you are absolutely right. It was a big omission by myself not to tell what i would want my character to do. Well, profession-wise, i would like my character to be a hunter with the broad meaning of the word. I mean to be able to track down and catch/retrieve/acquire anyone or anything. As for his physical build, I'm thinking of him as being a ridiculously die-hard person, although within normal boundaries. I'm not talking about anything beyond the real world, nothing supernatural or superhuman. Simply put, someone who, even when it seems that his is doomed, he somehow will be able to stand up again and fight once more. Maybe he is too quick to be hurt or maybe he is just lucky, i really don't know but you get the point.
I realise that everything suggests the Ranger, but honestly I do not have labelled the concept in my mind. Any approach to the above description is equally acceptable and maybe even more interesting. In addition, a problem I always have with archetypical Rangers of the RPGs is that I am not too fond of archery and ranged attacks as well as of the animal companion idea.

My main concern is should i throw in some levels of more than one of the given class or choose one class and keep it throughout the 7 levels? will the advantages of multi-classing outweigh the penalties? Is it worth multi-classing if the max achievable level in the end (of the adventure/campaign) isn't that high?

By the way, my stats are 18, 15, 14, 14, 14 & 13 (unassigned) if that helps.

Is any of those classes harder to role-play than others?

Quertus

2019-03-15, 05:59 PM

The PC must be Human of NG (or maybe LG, LN) alignment. The allowed classes are Ranger, Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Cleric (in order of DM's preference). Dual-classing is also allowed but not recommended (for me or in general i do not know). Prestige classes are not ruled out but it will take some further discussion. The level as said it would be L7. Magic items are rare.

I also think it's REALLY kind of lame that the DM has given you HIS preference of classes you should take. If you are going to restrict them to a couple of books, you should be given full advantage of said books, not be forced into picking what the DM wants you to play. I'd rather play a video game than be railroaded into someone's amateur nonsense.

Playing a mundane character is hard-mode, bruv. If you make a mistake with druid or cleric spells, or an animal companion, those can be changed with a night's rest. If you pick stupid feats for your fighter, it's permanent.

So...

There are people in your party who have classes outside this list. GM sounds like a ****.

The world is low magic, and GM encourages mundanes? GM sounds like a noob (or possibly a ****), and probably a control freak.

This GM says "core only"? This GM sounds like a noob with trust issues & control issues.

All of the above, and GM made you a preferences class list, heavy on muggles? I'm hearing rails.

This GM throws lots and lots of red flags. You've been warned.

That said, I would recommend,

1) Cleric
2) Ranger
3) Wizard/Druid/Psion (ie, something not on the GM's list)

In that order.

Cleric can actually manage a low-wealth campaign better than those other choices. Also, if the GM takes away your casting, you know to bail and blacklist that GM.

Ranger, as had been said, is versatile. It's a great first character. Be better with items, though. (Also, there was a cool Ranger/Barb/prestige build that sounded fun).

Things off the preferences list? It's to see what the GM will do when you ignore his blatant rails. Might be best to get it out of the way early.

Good luck!

Eldariel

2019-03-16, 04:06 PM

Okay, let's see now... I'll give you one idea for how you could approach this:

LN Human Cleric Archer of the Hunt (ideal, not a God)

14 Str
18 Dex
14 Con
14 Int
15 Wis
13 Cha

Pick Turn Undead (spontaneously cast Cures; they're useful for less effort than the spontaneous Inflicts and Undead you could get with Rebuking)
Domains: Travel, Trickery (seems pretty appropriate for "a Hunter")

Skill ranks:
10 Concentration
10 Bluff
8 Diplomacy
10 Hide
8 Survival
1 Knowledge: Religion
1 Knowledge: Arcane
1 Knowledge: The Planes
½ Knowledge: Nature

Feats:
1. Track
B. MWP: Longbow
3. Point Blank Shot
6. Rapid Shot

Equipment:
Mw. Longspear
Mw. Composite Longbow (+2 Str)
Mw. Composite Longbow (+5 Str)
Mithril Breastplate
Usual adventuring stuff

If you can get magic items, Periapt of Wisdom +2 and Necklace of Dex +2 are the priority ones and you can get stuff like Animated Shield or such if you have extra cash. You could replace Track with Craft Wondrous Items if needed to acquire the key items; they're worth more and you can always summon something to follow tracks for you if you end up needing it. The spell loadout I listed earlier is probably fine:

1. Summon Monster I (for sacrifice), Divine Favor, Divine Favor, Divine Favor, Divine Favor, Disguise Self
2. Resist Energy, Resist Energy, Spiritual Weapon, Death Knell, Invisibility
3. Magic Vestment, Magic Circle Against Evil, Dispel Magic, Fly
4. Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Power, Dimension Door

This assumes 18 Wisdom; you need to drop a 4th level spell (probably just Greater Magic Weapon for now as you can't drop domain spells) if you have to make do with less.

Not numerically nearly as impressive as a Strength-build (1d8+6-1d8+7 damage even with buffs instead of 2d6+10-2d6+12 and Divine Power doesn't pump "to hit" here) but still certainly workably decent overall.

bean illus

2019-03-16, 06:53 PM

I don't catch how your getting ranks in survival, hide, etc. Is there a cleric of the hunt variant i missed?

Eldariel

2019-03-17, 12:57 AM

I don't catch how your getting ranks in survival, hide, etc. Is there a cleric of the hunt variant i missed?

Travel and Trickery domains open up a number of skills. Travel most saliently opens up Survival, while Trickery opens up Hide, Bluff and Disguise. The principal reason I suggested picking up both. Well, somewhere I read Travel adds Knowledge: Nature too but as both SRD and PHB disagree with me, we'll just go with it being a different edition thing.

EDIT: Ah, I probably misread the Cleric class description; Plant and Animal grant Knowledge: Nature, but Travel only grants Survival.

Malphegor

2019-03-18, 05:53 AM

Haven't fully read the thread but looking at the classes you have available, I'd recommend Rogue or Cleric.

Rogues are pretty simple- hide, stabbity, do a d4 in knife damage, but then real fun comes in their sneak attack damage, where you do a gajillion d6 in damage, rivalling low level fireballs, and there's ways to improve that. If you wanted to look at prestige classes for it later, Arcane Trickster is a fun one. Rogues tend to be Dex-based, and there's a lot of fun ways you can go.

Clerics are easily one of the easiest classes to play as casters go imo (no spell research required, a cleric just prays for whatever they can access at their level and they get it. It is amazing.) and also one of the 3 most powerful classes in the game. I suspect your DM's trying to avoid arcane casters for a story reason, which is cool, you can still work with that to be absurdly overpowered, lol. Clerics are (normally) Wisdom based casters.

Consider asking if you could play a Cloistered Cleric- it was an Unearthed Arcana (I think) class variant for more studious that was basically a cleric with less melee options but an extra domain (Knowledge, independant of whatever your god normally offers) and was less 'kung fu vicar' imo. Is fun if you have a character concept that doesn't involve the usual knight templar deus vult crusading cleric. I believe you also get all knowledge skills as class skills, which is handy.

On Rangers, whilst it isn't great (you're a divine caster as a ranger, and most of your spells are to do with your arrows), you get a decent chunk of utility stuff for living in the wilderness. Depends on your campaign, if you've got no druid, Rangers are that weird inbetween druids and fighters. There's an animal companion, you've got some nature abilities, but your main thing is going to be buffing yourself and shooting arrows whilst your animal companion does some mild attacks here and there as far as I know. (Drizzt was one of these somewhere in his piles of different classes I think)

Barbarians, now they're interesting. In terms of dead levels (levels where you have nothing interesting going on beyond number increases), barbarians are beautiful as there is always something new each level. Depending on your race, there may be substitution levels and stuff to make a barbarian better than stock, but to be honest a standard PHB barbarian from 1 to 20 is a lot of fun. If you enjoy playing the Hulk, Barbs are fun.

bean illus

2019-03-18, 11:25 AM

Travel and Trickery domains open up a number of skills. Travel most saliently opens up Survival, while Trickery opens up Hide, Bluff and Disguise.

EDIT: Ah, I probably misread the Cleric class description; Plant and Animal grant Knowledge: Nature, but Travel only grants Survival.

Thanks for your patience. I knew all that,and did read the character limitations ... maybe i was tired both times. Lol

Particle_Man

2019-03-18, 05:17 PM

I've realized this is surprisingly similar to the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) build, but a wood elf probably doesn't have the Int for combat expertise.

In fact, the Horizon Tripper Build (Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 2 more/Horizon Walker (prestige class) 2 for a 7th level character) is what I would recommend for this character. It is a nice meelee core option and gives you something cool to try at low levels and some teleportation and resistance to nasty alignent based stuff at high levels. You have wonderful stats for it. Human giving you the extra feat is great for it too.

chakou79

2019-03-18, 07:37 PM

In fact, the Horizon Tripper Build (Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 2 more/Horizon Walker (prestige class) 2 for a 7th level character) is what I would recommend for this character. It is a nice meelee core option and gives you something cool to try at low levels and some teleportation and resistance to nasty alignent based stuff at high levels. You have wonderful stats for it. Human giving you the extra feat is great for it too.

It's interesting indeed, but i have to ask again:

1) Supposing that you're starting with the Ranger class, does it matter if it's R1/F1/B1/R2 or R3/F1/B1 or R3/B1/F1 etc?
2) Both Fighter and Barbarian classes must be used or it will also work if it's R1/B2/R2 or R1/F2/R2?
3) How about spending two more levels in total as B & F (R3/F2/B2...) before stacking levels in HW PrC, or it's not worth doing so?
4) Would this build make sense without the HW PrC (in case PrCs are eliminated as well)?
5) Could you please elaborate more on the progression (skills, feats, combat style...)? I understand that archery is not recommended for this build, right? What if i'm not fond of TWF is there any other option?

Quertus

2019-03-18, 08:02 PM

bean illus

2019-03-18, 08:53 PM

It's interesting indeed, but i have to ask again:

1) Supposing that you're starting with the Ranger class, does it matter if it's R1/F1/B1/R2 or R3/F1/B1 or R3/B1/F1 etc?
2) Both Fighter and Barbarian classes must be used or it will also work if it's R1/B2/R2 or R1/F2/R2?
3) How about spending two more levels in total as B & F (R3/F2/B2...) before stacking levels in HW PrC, or it's not worth doing so?
4) Would this build make sense without the HW PrC (in case PrCs are eliminated as well)?
5) Could you please elaborate more on the progression (skills, feats, combat style...)? I understand that archery is not recommended for this build, right? What if i'm not fond of TWF is there any other option?

That's the standard Horizon Tripper.

1. If you've started at 7, the only real question is R1 for skill points, or B1 for hit points. R1 is standard, and more so if starting after level 2. Other than that is makes little difference which order.
2. B1 is wanted for +10' speed. F1 can be traded for B2, the difference being uncanny dodge or fighter feat.
3. It's generally accepted that prc is better. There's some good things in those base class levels, but you would have to decide. Level 7 HW is the prize, and you may not get there.
4. Yes, though at that point R1/B1/R5 gives better spell access and improved combat style. Perhaps R1/B2/F2 could work ... less skills but more martial?
5. Combat style is inconsequential to this build. I would choose archery since you'll be tripping at close range (twf doesn't do trip).

There's small options to put something else in there, but the build is a full bab build, so ...
Rogue 1/B2/Ra1/Ro+1(2)/HW2 is short 1 bab, but gets mad skills, evasion, uncanny dodge, and clw wand use.
Without HW ... Ro1/B2/Ro+1(2)/R1/F2 ?

You should read the Horizon Tripper build. It's linked 2-3 post above this one. Ask your dm about spiked chain, and Martial Rogue (trade sneak attack for fighter feats = 2 feats, one each at levels 1 and 2).

Particle_Man

2019-03-18, 09:09 PM

Here is the link to the horizon tripper build. It should answer some of your questions:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)

Eldariel

2019-03-19, 02:10 AM

Frankly though, if you don't think Tripping is too complex for starting off, you could just make a Tripper Cleric to much the same effect (go 18 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 15 Wis, 13 Cha like before and just pick up feats Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiiency: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip - this is probably the strongest feat line-up for this level). You could then take the Strength-domain and cast Enlarge Person on yourself (or Magic-domain and use Wand of Enlarge Person if you can access the spell) when you wanna turbocharge your Tripping and area control. It makes you Large so you threaten twice the normal area, do increased damage and get additional +4 on Trip-checks. But size increases are another relatively complex thing so I'm not certain that's the best way to go here. Unless you, the OP, feel like you are able to calculate varying bonuses.

The previous builds I outlined were written with the idea that there would only be two-three things to keep a track of: tripping would add a few more. Of course this can be a very effective "Hunter" again in certain senses of the word; you can trap anyone within your threat radius and make it nigh' impossible for them to escape.

Incidentally, the earlier build I set up so that you'd also be well-equipped for finding and taking down your target; Diplomacy and Bluff allow for you to find your target in a more social settings and Track allows for it in a more natural one (and spells complement either). You can stalk, you even have the Silence- and Invisibility-spells if need be to sneak and you can take them down. Again, you can pick your combat style. Taking Strength over Dex and going melee is also a valid option (as is going "dual-style" with Str > Dex and just picking up Longbow proficiency).

bean illus

2019-03-19, 10:01 AM

... you could just make a Tripper Cleric to much the same effect (go 18 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 15 Wis, 13 Cha like before and just pick up feats Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiiency: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip - this is probably the strongest feat line-up for this level). You could then take the Strength-domain and cast Enlarge Person on yourself (or Magic-domain and use Wand of Enlarge Person if you can access the spell) when you wanna turbocharge your Tripping and area control. It makes you Large so you threaten twice the normal area, do increased damage and get additional +4 on Trip-checks.

This build will possibly test your dms patience. Ask first about spiked chain. But it would be near as good with a pole arm, and would free up a feat.

Level 7 is a power boost to cleric. A level 7 tripper cleric is formidable with this games limitations.

Again, spell choice and descriptive fluff/story makes this character nearly whatever you want.

Eldariel

2019-03-19, 11:57 AM

This build will possibly test your dms patience. Ask first about spiked chain. But it would be near as good with a pole arm, and would free up a feat.

Level 7 is a power boost to cleric. A level 7 tripper cleric is formidable with this games limitations.

Again, spell choice and descriptive fluff/story makes this character nearly whatever you want.

True, it's a very annoying build especially with these stats; enough Dex to guarantee two AoOs a turn and enough Strength to trip nigh' anything with spells just further boosting it; getting attacks as non-actions while buffing self is pretty nice place to be as a caster. However, a tripper is a tripper; I'd assume either kind of tripper would be annoying for the DM with this setup.

My bigger gripe with the build is that tripping adds an extra layer of complexity to combat where we're already talking about a player, who's jumping in on level 7 into an unfamiliar system. I think it would be optimal to minimise the amount of situational bonuses (e.g. Favored Enemy, Prone, etc.) the character regularly has to deal with as it makes turns take longer (something the DM seems to worry about given the restrictions he's set out) and places an extra burden on memory. Static bonuses like Divine Favor or Rage are easier in that they have a set duration and they're either on or off, applying to all actions taken while the ability is active. It's easy enough to list two sets of stuff, one with the bonuses and one without. It takes much more effort to cross-reference two tables simultaneously, one for enemies against whom a bonus applies and one for those against whom it doesn't, let alone when you add buffs from other characters on top of it.

Well, i think "The Kool" said it all for me. I'm sure that there is absolutely no bad intention behind the restrictions our DM has set for us. He is experienced, the world is totally home-brewed and very low in magic maybe even some of the mechanics are borrowed from other systems (i don't know that for sure) and the game is in progress. So i wouldn't be too suspicious about him.

I realise some of these questions were never covered in-depth, so I'll try to rectify that at least for my part:

Re: Low magic. Spellcasters are always better than non-casters in low magic games.

Explanation: Non-casters rely on magic items and spellcasters to get basic effects (+X weapons, +X armor, Haste, Flight, See Invisibility, Invisibility, etc.) that multiply their efficiency. In a low magic game, such effects are harder to come by but spellcasters have them natively (Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, See Invisibility/Invisibility Purge, Fly/Air Walk, etc.). Thus, if the game is low magic, there are even more incentives for playing a full caster. Furthermore, crafting magic items, which is about the only way to acquire useful items in many low magic games, is a spellcaster only thing.

I'm OK with the idea to have only those handful of classes at my disposal and i'm sure that he won't have a problem either if i eventually choose to go for class mixing or be interested in using a prestige class later. My main concern is should i throw in some levels of more than one of the given class or choose one class and keep it throughout the 7 levels? will the advantages of multi-classing outweigh the penalties? Is it worth multi-classing if the max achievable level in the end (of the adventure/campaign) isn't that high?

Re: Multiclassing. Multiclassing is worth it for warrior classes as a rule.

Explanation: Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Monk are all very frontloaded classes where they get their most powerful and useful abilities on the first level or the first few levels of the class. As such, a character with one-two levels of each tends to be more powerful than a single-classed character. The most powerful single-classed non-caster of these is definitely the Barbarian, simply because Rage is really good and getting to use it every fight and even getting improvements to it is nice. Ranger and Paladin get spells, which are about the only important thing they offer down the road. Most of the important improvements for warriors come from feats that anyone can take (Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Spirited Charge in Core) - class features only augment these.

Spellcasters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, kinda Bard) on the other hand get quadratic scaling from their class levels: higher caster level (and thus more duration/casting range/damage/spell resistance penetration/dispel resistance), higher level spells, more spells of the old level, and often even class features out of their class levels. Thus spellcasters almost never benefit of multiclassing as much as taking levels in a single class. Rogue Sneak Attack scaling and skills are important enough that you don't really want to multiclass with them either but it isn't as important for them as for spellcasters.

TL;DR: If you take a spellcasting class, don't multiclass. If you take a warrior class, do multiclass if you want.

Re: Max achievable level. Level 7 is already high enough for this to be true.

Explanation: Max achievable level doesn't really matter. Casters want more caster levels from the start, warriors get more out of cherry-picking classes from the start. You miss out on the option of taking some prestige classes (for example, Archmage can only be taken in the teens) but mostly, this doesn't affect the reality of any of these statements.

Is any of those classes harder to role-play than others?

Re: Roleplaying. You don't roleplay classes. You roleplay characters.

Explanation: I kinda covered this already, but to reiterate: classes are not characters. A Ranger can be a cruel hunter, a protector of the innocent, a warlord, an animal keeper, a guard, a Druid (the character archetype, not the class), or whatever for example. Same goes for basically every class. Classes are sets of abilities. Characters are personalities, webs of social relationships, agents, actors. The same set of abilities can belong to many different kinds of characters. Thus, your class build doesn't necessarily inform much of your character's personality, goals, desires, weaknesses, abilities, etc. In this case, it's sensible to build a mechanically robust character with the kind of personality you might want.

A Cleric for example doesn't necessarily need to be a preacher. A Cleric of the Hunt might offer a prayer to whatever greater power lies out there before going on a hunt, and any Cleric needs to pray for their spells but the form of said prayer as well as the content there-of is completely up to the player. Same with their behaviour; you can be a brash hotshot, a cunning scoundrel, a hardy warrior, a devout believer, a crusader, a cultist, a mercenary, whatever regardless of your class. This bears emphasizing; classes are at most approximations of the character abilities and e.g. Cleric can be built to be about anything (as I hope I showcased with the "Cleric of the Hunt"-build above).

Thus, pick the character classes that best suit your fancy and needs, pick the character archetype you want and craft a personality from there. You don't need to be a Ranger to be a hunter nor a Cleric to be a priest. Indeed, a Ranger or a Fighter might be a priest while a Cleric might be a mage or a hunter, for example. Make the classes suit your needs, don't try and suit the classes because the classes are generic enough to be about anything (with some exceptions: Druid and Paladin are pretty fluff-heavy mechanically for example).

chakou79

2019-03-22, 12:16 PM

The Kool

2019-03-22, 12:21 PM

Eldariel

2019-03-22, 01:30 PM

In the tripper build i'd say that i'm convinced that taking the first class/Level as ranger is probably the best thing to do. The dilemas come after that. So, what about the penalty in XP when a class has more than one lvl difference than the other (e.g. R3 and B1 & F1)? Does this apply to the prestige classes as well?If that is true then when HW would be at L5 then the character will be awarded with only the 40% of the total XP, right?

Of course i'm not referring to the cleric tripper character (which by the way "Eldariel", i assume you meant that it would be pure cleric - not multi-classing character - using the tripping method for combat, correct?).

Correct, Cleric with these stats can make for quite possibly the best trippers in the game, and tripping is the strongest melee tactic by a fair bit (a very powerful debuff that you can rather easily apply combined with your usual damage). It's doubly beneficial since much of the benefit of tripping is free action out of your turn ("attack of opportunity" provoked by an enemy moving from a square you threaten; you threaten maximal amount of space by being Large and having a reach weapon, threatening 20' around you so enemies provoke a lot) and you can thus cast buff spells on your turn and then trip out of turn. As I stated previously, casters don't want to multiclass so you'd naturally want to go Cleric 7. Perhaps take Trickery and Magic domains, use Wand/Scrolls of Enlarge Person and go from there. Or just take Strength domain coupled with either Trickery or Travel and cast the Enlarge Person yourself.

Far as Horizon Tripper goes, since you'd be forced to be Human your Favored Class would be the class with the largest number of levels. In this case Ranger. Prestige Classes do not count towards Favored Class penalties, meaning the build has no penalties at any point. As for your question, the penalties from multiple classes would stack normally making it possible to make leveling entirely impossible if you multiclass too much. Those rules are rather poorly implemented though and eschewed from many games as a result. But yeah, in this build with Human such problems do not occur in any case.