How rough is it to play a non optimized caster?

[Pagrek]

I’m finishing up the campaign I’m currently DM’ing and my friend offered me a place in the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign he’ll start when we finish.

I'm building my character and I originally wanted to run a cavalier, so I made a backstory for a half-orc fighter. However, as time goes by I’ve grown more and more unsure of playing a martial. I’ve thought about changing characters, but I’ve fallen in love with my backstory and that requires me to play a Half-Orc. The DM is also enthusiastic about the backstory which cements my decision to keep it.

Still, I’m not locked into any particular class and I’m now thinking about a College of Swords or Valour Bard. The problem is we’re using point buy for stats and as a Half-Orc the casting stat of any caster I pick will be lower than it would otherwise. Now I know I can pick spells that don’t use an attack roll or save, but a lot of the really good debuffs and generally fun combat spells do. How much am I hobbling myself by not taking a race that supplements my class?

Also does anyone have a suggestion for stat distribution? Anything I come up with is terribly MAD and the only way I can think of to alleviate this is to beg my DM for Heavy armor proficiency, (I have a plan that might work).

Additionally does anyone have good suggestions for a Half-Orc gish? Or maybe want to convince me that a martial can be fun for 15 levels? I’m at early character creation, things are fluid right now.

[Great Dragon]

I'm still getting the hang of 5e, so bear with me.

The only real things affected by a Low Prime Casting Stat are Save DC and Spell To Hit.
But, as long as you don't go Negative, these are usually a minimum of a 12 DC and +2 Hit.
If you are focused more on the RP of the Character, placing those every 4 levels Ability Score Increases into the Prime Stat can show growth in the Casting Power of the Character.

As for playing a Martial, if you want to be more gish - go for Fighter: Eldritch Knight.
This gives you all the Fighter's Base power (Extra Attack at 5th, etc) and puts some Spell Power for Kick.

Pure Paladins can be very scary with their Smite Spell and Smite Ability combinations, and scale as you gain Levels! Just remember to save these for the Main Boss Fight.

I've not seen (or played) the Ranger: Monster Slayer, but it looked rather potent
- especially against Spellcasters and Creatures with any kind of Teleporting ability.


Also does anyone have a suggestion for stat distribution?

If you're using AL Point Buy, you get 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8.

Other allowed combinations are three 15s and three 8s.
(not a really great option; but a Wizard that has 8 Str, 8 Dex, and 8 Cha might work for your Character Idea)

and three 13s and three 12s. (Most likely your best option for the gish with the +2 Str [15]
and +1 Con [14] from Half-Orc)


I’m now thinking about a College of Swords or Valour Bard.
I'm not experienced with either of these yet, and so can't offer much advice. Sorry.

Valour Bard's ability to allow other PCs to add the Bardic Inspiration Die to their damage seems ok.

Sword Bard's Flourish ability is versatile, but applies only to themselves.


----
So, I suppose that it depends on the Character Idea that you have for this Character.

[OverLordOcelot]

Still, I’m not locked into any particular class and I’m now thinking about a College of Swords or Valour Bard. The problem is we’re using point buy for stats and as a Half-Orc the casting stat of any caster I pick will be lower than it would otherwise. Now I know I can pick spells that don’t use an attack roll or save, but a lot of the really good debuffs and generally fun combat spells do. How much am I hobbling myself by not taking a race that supplements my class?

You end up with a starting DC for your spells of 12 instead of 13, and a starting to-hit of +4 instead of +5. It's not crippling, but it's less mathematically effective. In the long run you're basically giving up a feat/ASI to take the race you want instead of a race that would start your stat higher.


Also does anyone have a suggestion for stat distribution? Anything I come up with is terribly MAD and the only way I can think of to alleviate this is to beg my DM for Heavy armor proficiency, (I have a plan that might work).

10 14 16 10 10 14 seems like good set of stats, fight with dex when that happens, once you get your college you start wearing medium armor.


Additionally does anyone have good suggestions for a Half-Orc gish? Or maybe want to convince me that a martial can be fun for 15 levels? I’m at early character creation, things are fluid right now.

What exactly do you mean by a 'gish'? You're not ever going to be as good at melee as the pure martials or as good at casting as the pure casters when you try to do both, you're going to end up specializing in one or the other. Figure out what balance of abilities you like better and people can probably point you to specific builds that work.

[Pagrek]

The reason I’m asking for stat advice is because I want to focus on Strength for weapon damage. I know there are a plethora of reasons to use Dex, but I want to be able to use expertise in athletics to grapple a foe into a Cloud of Daggers and hold him there and other Strength based shenanigans.

What I want with this character is to be able to maybe cast a buff or debuff and engage in melee on round 2, throwing a healing word as needed, saving my spells for out of combat situations and utility.

[EternalPrime]

I'm currently playing Dragon Heist with a Life Cleric who has a Wisdom of 10.
At the start of combat, I either cast Bless on myself and two others, or Shield of Faith on the paladin. Neither spell has a mechanic based on Wisdom, and my Constitution is high so Concentration is less of a problem for me than it is the party wizard.
My limited number of spells prepared means I only keep essentials like Protection from Evil and Good, Aid, and (soon) Protection from Energy, none of which are affected by Wisdom. There are plenty of spells that don't rely on spell attacks or saving throws. So far, I've never cursed myself for not having prepared something we "really needed."
But what about Healing?
I may not be able to dish out the healing as well as an optimized Life Cleric, but the bonus from Disciple of Life means I don't heal any WORSE than any other cleric.
So far I'm happy with this build.

If you need to be convinced that playing a martial character long-term can be fun, then you probably can't be convinced. One of my first two PCs in 5e was the Human Champion Fighter pregen from LMoP. I got him up to tier 4 in AL play.

As for a Half-Orc Gish, depending on your definition of "Gish," I had plenty of fun playing a Half-Orc paladin through CoS.

[Toadkiller]

It will make a little bit of difference, but not so much. The die roll is still going to be the biggest factor.

I played a pure wizard who had a sword. Despite a sub-par melee stat she could still hit things the few times she needed to do so. Would a cantrip have been better? Sure. But I wanted a character that swung a blade from time to time. So I did that and it was fine.

I think playing the character you want to play is more fun than playing the one you “should” want to play. If you have a DM that’s down with that then you’re in a good spot to give it a try.

[sophontteks]

I think you'll be just fine.

You'll have to go valor because you need the medium armor and shield when going strength.
For stats 16 str, 14 dex, 14 con, and 14 charisma.
You'll have an AC of 17 with a chain shirt, not bad for a full caster.

For spells. The AOE spells are still no-brainers. Faerie dust and fear are going to be strong openers for you. Fear is too risky for most bards, not you though. Enhance ability will be nice. Just avoid the single-target spells for the most part until mid game.

You can take expertise in athletics, and be quite a mean grappler. There are probably spells that can enhance this, but I didn't look that deep.

[Crucius]

If UA is allowed I can recommend the Stone Sorcerer. It has quickly become one of my favorite (sub)classes and could do well with a half-orc; relies heavily on Con for defense, needs a primary melee stat to gish (which could easily be Str since Dex no longer factors in AC) and gets some wonderful spells that augment melee combat without forcing it as the only way to play (the level 6 'extra attack' is off-turn so it offers the flexibility of casting in your action AND making a semi-reliable melee attack in your round).

It is UA tho, and people discussing this subclass (correctly) state that it is a bit overtweaked.

[Mordaedil]

I'm still getting the hang of 5e, so bear with me.

The only real things affected by a Low Prime Casting Stat are Save DC and Spell To Hit.
But, as long as you don't go Negative, these are usually a minimum of a 12 DC and +2 Hit.

DC is calculated at 8 + proficiency + ability score in 5e, so the minimum DC without a negative score is 10 at early levels. Everything else is correct.

[Nhorianscum]

Minus 1 to your spell save DC from cl1-12 compared to an optimal choice, but your secondary stats and defenses are supercharged.

IE not bad at all, go for it. Depending on magic item drops you may wind up better than a 16cha bard. Because those exist.

[CTurbo]

What exactly is it about martials that have you second guessing?

[Germelia]

As long as you have fun and the party is balanced you should be fine.

I'm currently in a (awesome!) PotA game and have just added a cleric level to my 5th level half-orc barbarian (very sub-optimal with a lowish wis, but it made sense roleplay-wise).

[Great Dragon]

DC is calculated at 8 + proficiency + ability score in 5e, so the minimum DC without a negative score is 10 at early levels. Everything else is correct.

Thanks for the catch. Still used to doing 3x Save DC calculations in my head.

Also gone are the Prestige Classes for the "Classic Gish" (Fighter/Mage).

My calculations for The Paladin's Damage Per Day (by DPR) is in the "counterspell" thread.


EternalPrime
If you need to be convinced that playing a martial character long-term can be fun, then you probably can't be convinced.

This is most likely correct. It looks like the OP is looking for a "Do Everything" Character.
Strong on Melee Attacks, but still able to Buff/Debuff in combat and have some Utility abilities.

For that, sophontteks' suggestion is your best bet.

[Pex]

The math of the game matters. Monster ability scores and proficiency increase as the levels progress. If you don't increase both as well falling behind will matter. A -1 difference won't matter so much, but it will become a -2 which does. Fortunately at low level where you usually have the -1 difference the effect is minimal. You might notice it against the BBEG of the combat, but only for that one round where having that extra +1 would have made a difference. By 8th level you need the 18 in your prime. Starting 14 at 1st level is fine for a 16 at 4th then 18 at 8th. It means not having a feat. If you want a feat it should be really important to you. A feat you know you will use a lot, be very happy you have to make up for falling behind in the math. If you can start with 15 in your Prime at 1st level to take a feat that gives +1 in it at 4th level that's good too.

It's not a tragedy not having an 18 at 8th level. There are lots of things your character can do and not everything is dependent on your Prime. You will notice missing your attack or the monster making its saving throw, and it will sting, but you can still meaningfully contribute presuming of course you have a 16. Your Prime is your Prime for a reason. If you ignore it it will hurt you. The game math will force it.

[MThurston]

You don't have to play one at all. But also don't put yourself in a hole.

Example of this your main stat. You can be a fighter with a 16 Dex and 8 Str. You can even be a fighter with 16 Str and 8 Dex.

However, you can't play a fighter with a 10 Str and an 8 Dex.

Likewise if you are a spell caster that your spell DC is based on Wis, then your Wis should be one of your higher scores.

As for abilities and spells you should take things that you like, not just things that are expected. Want to play a War Cleric that doesn't have healing spells? Go ahead.

[nickl_2000]

Another possibility to consider since it is point buy if to go level 1 in Fighter, then the rest in Bard. This will only put you 1 level behind in overall spell casting, but will give you constitution saves, shields, a fighting style, and heavy armor.

This allows you to mix it up pretty heavily in melee as a strength based caster, tank dex completely, and still be able to be a bard it up. Although, to be honest, bard does suffer a little bit more than others from lack of high charisma since their inspiration is based on your cha mod. Still, you can make it work pretty easily.

[Crgaston]

Another possibility to consider since it is point buy if to go level 1 in Fighter, then the rest in Bard. This will only put you 1 level behind in overall spell casting, but will give you constitution saves, shields, a fighting style, and heavy armor.

This allows you to mix it up pretty heavily in melee as a strength based caster, tank dex completely, and still be able to be a bard it up. Although, to be honest, bard does suffer a little bit more than others from lack of high charisma since their inspiration is based on your cha mod. Still, you can make it work pretty easily.

This.

You can point buy 17/10/14/8/10/15, take +1 Str/Cha at CL 5, +2 Cha at CL 9 for 18’s in both which is totally playable.

You can wear heavy armor and hit stuff with a great axe while shouting encouragement to your allies.

Or you could go straight Paladin with those stats.

[nickl_2000]

This.

You can point buy 17/10/14/8/10/15, take +1 Str/Cha at CL 5, +2 Cha at CL 9 for 18’s in both which is totally playable.

You can wear heavy armor and hit stuff with a great axe while shouting encouragement to your allies.

Or you could go straight Paladin with those stats.

Plus, who doesn't like the idea of flourishing with a great axe!

[jdolch]

I would go Half-Orc Sorcadin. Take 6 Levels of Paladin and then switch to Sorcerer. Like THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass).

Usually Sword and Board but can easily be Build for 2-handed weapons (if you really want that classical 'Orc with Battle Axe' Feeling) and also doesn't have to be a goody two shoes. If you want to be more mean, you can go Conquest Paladin for example or even Oathbreaker. (And then Shadowsorcerer after that if you want to be really dark.)

You go STR build with Half-Orc. Use your Spellslots mostly for Smites with a bit of Paladin Casting thrown is and then from Level 7 you become a Sorcerer. You get even more Slots for Smites, full Sorcerer Casting on top. (And with it things like Booming Blade, Shield, etc. which really take the Paladin over the top) So you are mainly a Melee Character but if you want you can Cast with the best of 'em.

You can build this no problem with point buy:

Half Orc gets you to

STR(17) DEX(8) CON(16) INT(8) WIS(8) CHA(15)

then you take +1STR +1CHA at your first ASI (or second ASI if you want to go Sword and Board, then you need Warcaster on your first ASI) and that gets you to

STR(18) DEX(8) CON(16) INT(8) WIS(8) CHA(16)

And yes, that looks optimized but DEX, INT and WIS are really, really useless for a Sorcadin and the other 3 are really, really awesome so ... yeah.

Of course there is always the Hexblade Option but that doesn't work so good with Half Orc and Point-Buy.

P.S. The Idea of combining Half-Orc with Bard makes me gag, but to each their own.

[Crgaston]

Plus, who doesn't like the idea of flourishing with a great axe!

Nah, I'm totally in the Valor>Swords camp :)

[sophontteks]

Taking 1 level in fighter only puts you 1 level behind in abilities, and spells.
The only problem is that being 1 level behind in abilities and spells is painful.
Not getting a second attack until level 7 on a gish? Just for heavy armor? No thanks.

[Pagrek]

What exactly is it about martials that have you second guessing?

I just worry about not having enough to do out of combat. Spells, especially at later levels, have a lot of great roleplaying and exploration potential and if I go straight martial I worry I'll regret not being able to do stuff like, fly or cast plant growth which are both great spells for both pillars outside of combat. Basically I worry that a martial, particularly the fighter, is too focused on one pillar of play to the exclusion of others.

[NaughtyTiger]

I have played a few non-op casters:
gnome paladin at level 7, 14 Cha
mountain dwarf wizard at level 5, 16 Int.

I am "behind" my peers at the table, but only by +1.
So my wiz has a DC 13, the others at the table have DC14. 5% difference in die rolls.
by level 12 we will be all be maxed at 20.

[Willie the Duck]

A bard has plenty of support spells that don't use attack rolls or enemy saves. If you focus on those spells (much like a low-int EK focusing on shield/absorb elements/magic missile), your biggest problem will actually be your lower than average number of bardic inspirations.

Mind you, a Str-based valor bard has a little trouble in that they want a mid-to-high stat in Str, Dex, Con, and Cha (14 for Dex). That's a little hard to pull off, and you'll probably not be getting both your attack stat and casting stat to 20 by endgame (which is fine).

[NaughtyTiger]

A bard has plenty of support spells that don't use attack rolls or enemy saves. If you focus on those spells (much like a low-int EK focusing on shield/absorb elements/magic missile), your biggest problem will actually be your lower than average number of bardic inspirations.

Mind you, a Str-based valor bard has a little trouble in that they want a mid-to-high stat in Str, Dex, Con, and Cha (14 for Dex). That's a little hard to pull off, and you'll probably not be getting both your attack stat and casting stat to 20 by endgame (which is fine).

this is very true.
and "lower than average" means 1 less use.

[Willie the Duck]

this is very true.
and "lower than average" means 1 less use.

1 less use per short rest eventually, so it is significant. However, the whole thing is quite doable.
I would think (if point buy) one might go:
Str 14(7)+2 =16
Dex 14(7)
Con 13(5)+1 = 14
Cha 14 (7)
Int or Wis 9(1)

For array, probably:

Str 12+2
Dex 14
Con 13+1
Cha 15
Int and Wis 8&10

Although switching Str and Cha and just going full-bore in the 'no-save or spell-attack' mode would be interesting.

[guachi]

Casters suffer less from having a non-optimized main ability score than a martial character does.

Martials have a multiplicative effect with their ability scores as they usually add their ability score the the attack and damage roll. If you you hit 10% less often and do 10% less damage you'll do .9 x .9 = .81 = 81% of the damage you otherwise would. A spell often only uses the ability score to determine if it effects the target (attack or save) so it'd do 90% of the damage. And then there are spells that don't even care about your ability score.

[Laserlight]

How much am I hobbling myself by not taking a race that supplements my class?

The actual questions that matter are "How combat-optimized are the other PCs" (because if you all do the same kind of thing, then you're on a level playing field) and "How tough is the DM?" (because if you're worried about TPKs in half the fights, combat optimization will matter more than if your DM doesn't really threaten you).

[CTurbo]

I just worry about not having enough to do out of combat. Spells, especially at later levels, have a lot of great roleplaying and exploration potential and if I go straight martial I worry I'll regret not being able to do stuff like, fly or cast plant growth which are both great spells for both pillars outside of combat. Basically I worry that a martial, particularly the fighter, is too focused on one pillar of play to the exclusion of others.

I agree with you about Fighters lacking stuff to do outside of combat and that is exactly why I think Ritual Caster is an excellent feat for Fighters and Barbarians. You get extra feats anyway. Toss in Magic Initiate at higher levels and you'll never be without something to do. Choosing the right background can help too, and roleplaying can fill in the gaps.

So go with your original idea and be a Cavalier and take Ritual Caster. A single level of Cleric would add a lot of utility and you want a somewhat decent Wis anyway. Start with 13 and take Res(Wis) later or just start with 14 and forget it. Clerics are ritual casters too so combined with the feat you'd be able to cast rituals from 2 different classes. Cleric gives you some cantrips and some really good spells to concentrate on as well as some extra healing.

War gets you a limited bonus attack.
Tempest gets you a fun reaction ability.
Light gets you a fun reaction ability.
Forge gets you extra AC.

[Aquillion]

Keep in mind that base stats max out at 20. So if you start with 15 Charisma, you'll eventually get it to 20 if you put two and half ASIs in it. (Or start with 14 and put three in it, either way.) That's a lot - you won't be done until level 12 - but it's not like your casting stats will be ruined forever.

Until you do, missing the +2 Charisma from a Charisma-focused race is like 10% more failure chance on your spells that require saves. It's not the end of the world. Also, Valor Bards often focus on self-buffing and on similar spells where the saves don't matter - and as far as your out-of-combat spells go, it's similar; you can use illusions, say, where your Charisma is unimportant.

But if it's going to bother you a lot, there's another option - just ask your DM if you can play a variant Half-Orc that trades its +2 Strength for +2 Charisma. I mean... why not? It's not unbalanced or anything, and the purpose is to have fun, so if you're going to be bothered by your low Charisma, you can fix it. Point out that Charisma also represents force of personality and that a half-Orc is also half-human, so you'd expect some variation.


I agree with you about Fighters lacking stuff to do outside of combat and that is exactly why I think Ritual Caster is an excellent feat for Fighters and Barbarians. You get extra feats anyway. Toss in Magic Initiate at higher levels and you'll never be without something to do. Choosing the right background can help too, and roleplaying can fill in the gaps.Magic Initiate for Minor Illusion, Hex, and one other cantrip (perhaps Prestidigitation or Mage Hand) is never a bad choice for a fighter. Minor Illusion adds a ton of out-of-combat utility, while Hex is both out-of-combat utility and a straightforward combat bonus - more valuable to you than most people because it doesn't have to compete with anything else for your Concentration. Plus, few things resist Hex's necrotic damage, so it gives you a bit of reliable damage when your weapon is resisted.

If you already have a wizard, I would prioritize Magic Initiate over Ritual Caster, though. You don't really need more than one person casting rituals most of the time, whereas having multiple people casting Minor Illusion can be much more effective (eg. two halves of a ten-foot wall.)