[3.5] Level 1 sorcerer spells for a Gish?

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm not sure what spells would be good at this spell level.

The principle is to spend as little time as possible casting spells in combat.

That means spells with Swift casting time, or with hour/level durations, are preferred. If they can be discharged for an additional effect as a swift action, that is also cool.

I've got a few already but the lowest levels are proving a but trickier because hardly any of them have those parameters and at mid levels they are not likely to be worth spending an action on in combat. Any suggestions?

[tiercel]

If you want +(numbers) as a swift action, there are blades of fire or critical strike (both Spell Compendium); if you prefer swift-action defense or cheap battlefield control, instant diversion (mini-mirror image, Races of the Dragon) or blockade (wham, heavy 5’ cube, Complete Scoundrel).

[rel]

What character levels will your build be limited to 1st level spells for?

[Mr Adventurer]

Great suggestions so far guys, thanks!

I didn't initially want to put more specific character stuff because it seemed like a distraction, but, to answer your question rel: none. The character would come in around 10th level with access to 5th level spells.

[Malphegor]

Grease is always something I recommend. You can slap it on the floor, on yourself, on your enemy. An enemy without a weapon scrambling to pick up their weapon over and over is probably useful to a Gish.

[noce]

The fact you're a gish doesn't mean you can't make use of the occasional standard action spell to resolve an encounter.

At low levels, Color Spray is everything you need.
At all levels, Grease is a great 1st level spell known. Ray of Enfeeblement, too, 1d6+5 str damage is a good debuff.

There are a couple utility spells worth the 1st level spell known, at higher levels.
For example, Charm Person is always useful against town guards and the like.
Silent Image is another good example of out of combat spell known for when you're higher level.

[Vizzerdrix]

Nerveskitter.

[emeraldstreak]

Detect Magic, if no one else has it.

[rel]

Stand, summon component and a spell that grants a weapon are all either indispensable or useless depending on your GM's style

True strike / true cast are better for full on casters not gishes but are worth remembering.

If your gm doesn't allow safewing emblems and the like featherfall is often necessary

Unseen servant is great utility and really increases your mystique if you care for that

Blades of fire from SPC adds fire damage for the round and is a swift action cast.

If you are using sneak attack for bonus damage then distract assailant is a good swift action debuff

Shield is okay, but stacking AC is less reliable at LVL 10

Nerveskitter is always solid but I find the loss of a swift action annoying a lot of the time

If you go the size stacking route mighty wallop is 1st level

[Eldariel]

I don't get how Benign Transposition hasn't been mentioned yet. You'll have Quicken Spell and Rapid Metamagic probably anyways (or at the very least Circlet of Rapid Casting) and that means it's essentially an extra 5th level spell known and an awesome one at that: if you're a martial type, swapping places with the caster the enemy bumrushed both gets them to safety and you in the frontline and allows you to full attack. Also a perfect "Get out of Grapple for free"-card (replace yourself with a random thing like a summoned elephant or whatever) for yourself or allies, and great for crossing chasms (summon something or send an Unseen Servant over or whatever and swap places) and for ferrying others across as well. It's obviously great with a flying familiar as well as Phantom Steed and such. The only reason you might not want to pick it up is if you already know Baleful Transposition (it's a 2nd level version that can also target enemies), but Benign has fewer restrictions than Baleful (Baleful requires both subjects being connected by the ground, a rope or whatever; whether "air" counts as a connecting thing is arguable - Benign has no restrictions) and you just so happen to be on the level where you can Quicken Benign anyways.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Benign Transposition can be used to instantly reposition yourself and another character, or two other characters. If someone has a flying or climbing familiar you can use this spell to get the party to someplace that would be otherwise difficult to reach. It only has a verbal component, and the early levels of a gish are often spent wearing armor and/or using a shield, so it won't suffer an arcane spell failure chance since it has no somatic components. This spell is useful to have at all levels, unlike many 1st level spells that you'd want to replace at a later level.

[Falontani]

Fist of stone?
Amazing boost to strength, nabs a decent natural attack, and is a fairly long lasting buff iirc

[ericgrau]

Really? I never have enough spells known / spell slots for everything I want.

Try:

swift expeditious retreat (SpC). A little redundant if you have swift fly though.
+1 to nerveskitter. Borderline broken spell. Get your DM ok or just skip it if your group doesn't optimize well.
unseen servant
mage armor
feather fall



Also try to apply metamagic to:

(empower) ray of enfeeblement
(empower/quicken) magic missile
(quicken) true strike
+1 to (quicken) benign transposition. Try your familiar. If you need to sacrifice the swapped creature, try a mount spell which is another level 1 you can keep active for 24 hours a day. Those are better than spending an action on a summon.



You'll need the right feats or etc. to use quicken as a sorcerer. The damage of magic missile may not keep up at all but it's great for reliably finishing off nearly dead foes or reaching hard to hit or resistant foes.

I also tend to get every single level 1 utility spell on a scroll, 1-4 copies. To cast between combats. Try looking through the PHB and SpC at minimum and taking practically everything non-combat or otherwise useful between combat. Get caster level 3 where beneficial, like tenser's floating disk.

I agree not to bother with the standard action level 1 stuff except maybe at low level, or boosted by metamagic.

[Anthrowhale]

If you take a level or two of Silver Pyromancer (losing a level of spell advancement), you gain access to Paladin spells (many are gishy) and can take Battle Blessing to autoquicken all Paladin spells.

[Eldariel]

+1 to (quicken) benign transposition. Try your familiar. If you need to sacrifice the swapped creature, try a mount spell which is another level 1 you can keep active for 24 hours a day. Those are better than spending an action on a summon.

If this was in response to my suggestion, I'll expand on my intent: use the party resources. Got a Druid or a summoner Cleric/Wizard? Much of their stuff would be all to happy to be grappling, so you double up on the utility by moving the non-grappler out and the grappler into the battle. Got a necromancer or a golem master or whatever? Their weaker stuff probably is good for sacrifice. Then, yeah, Mount and Unseen Servant are nice options if you have said spells known. Phantom Steed/Shadow Conjuration works if you need something that flies.

The awesome of the spell is that its average case use "Get X to A" is already very strong for a 1st level spell, but at its best, it gets X AND Y exactly where they want to be, thus achieving two actions' worth of effect with a single (swift) action. All the damage in the world isn't worth anything if the character isn't in position to deliver it, after all.

[Hackulator]

If you take a level or two of Silver Pyromancer (losing a level of spell advancement), you gain access to Paladin spells (many are gishy) and can take Battle Blessing to autoquicken all Paladin spells.

I think it's questionable as to whether that works because the reason you can cast them is that they are being treated as spells from your arcane class, I'd definitely check with my DM before building that into my character.

[Anthrowhale]

I think it's questionable as to whether that works because the reason you can cast them is that they are being treated as spells from your arcane class, I'd definitely check with my DM before building that into my character.

I hadn't realized this was controversial. The exact wording is:

...you can treat spells from the paladin spell list as though they were arcane spells on the [sorcerer] spell list ...
... so you are casting them as sorcerer spells. But a paladin spell is still a paladin spell if it's cast by a sorcerer. You can test by asking yourself: Is this spell on the standard paladin list or not?

[noce]

I hadn't realized this was controversial. The exact wording is:

... so you are casting them as sorcerer spells. But a paladin spell is still a paladin spell if it's cast by a sorcerer. You can test by asking yourself: Is this spell on the standard paladin list or not?

So a cleric can take Battle Blessing and automatically quicken any spell on his list that just happens to be on the paladin spell list?

[Hackulator]

I hadn't realized this was controversial. The exact wording is:

... so you are casting them as sorcerer spells. But a paladin spell is still a paladin spell if it's cast by a sorcerer. You can test by asking yourself: Is this spell on the standard paladin list or not?

I'm not really looking to argue it, I guarantee you there are people who interpret it both ways which is why I just suggested you should ask the DM first.

[Anthrowhale]

So a cleric can take Battle Blessing and automatically quicken any spell on his list that just happens to be on the paladin spell list?

Yes? This is how a cleric/prestige paladin uses Battle Blessing.


I'm not really looking to argue it, I guarantee you there are people who interpret it both ways which is why I just suggested you should ask the DM first.

Ok, thanks.

[Mr Adventurer]

Some great suggestions in here, thanks. Would people like more detailed feedback, or to see the build?

[Eldariel]

Some great suggestions in here, thanks. Would people like more detailed feedback, or to see the build?

The build is always relevant as are your build-specific wants and needs. Benign Transposition gets much better if you have the means to Quicken it and need a way to get into melee for full attacking for instance. I'd say it's more about what you want than what we do, however; you are the OP asking for ideas so if you're sated, I do believe the purpose of the thread is fulfilled.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yep. I didn't want to ask people to work out what would be best for my character - I can do that myself. I just wanted a poll of what people thought is good on the basis of the parameters I set. So, this would be more just for interest, or of someone wanted to see the information to give different advice.