Magic Duels: ideas and talks

[Unoriginal]

From ancient myths to recent blockbuster movies, the idea of two magic users clashing in a duel to show off their might and ingenuity has lead to many impressive and memorable scenes, especially as it usually allows the authors to demonstrate the range of powers the magic (or appropriate substitute) characters have, as well as their respective different approaches.


Thing is, D&D magic does not work like it often does in other fictions. It is not Harry Potter, where wizards young and old have an effectively unlimited ammount of magic to use and only their knowledge and skills determining what they can do, nor is it the Elder Scrolls, where each spell costs a bit of the mana bar, which replenishes as soon as you stop casting for a bit.

D&D magic, or at least the typical Weavecraft, is limited both by the casters having to choose a few spells they have access to (either daily or as they gain levels) and by the number of daily uses of said spells. Which would make any attempt at magic dueling far less "let's do anything" than the usual depiction.

In addition to that, there is the issue of spell components, trump cards like Silence or Counterspell that would easily be go-to responses, and the significant number of spells that are just straightforward ways to kill.

So, assuming that the two casters just want to show who's the best and not simply try to murder each other in a socially acceptable context (and contest), here are a few ideas of mine on how that kind of challenges could go:

1. Cantrip Competition

The two duelists must out-do each other using only their at-will powers. Not only it shows the casters' relative power and skills, it rewards imagination and creativity with a narrow toolset.

2. Two Casters, One Spell, One Master

The two duelists must cast the same spell, and the one who manages to do the most with it wins.

3. Two Casters, One Effect, One Master

The two duelists must produce one effect (ex: create acid). The one who does the most potent effect wins.

4. Two Casters, One Task, One Master

The two duelists must accomplish the same task (ex: go on the other side of a wall, destroy a letter that's in one of the audience members' pocket, etc). The one who manages it the quickest, using as few and as low-level spell slots as possible wins.

5. Looks At What I Can Do

Each duelist casts their spell they think the most impressive. The one who impresses the judges the most wins.

6. Can You Handle This?

Each duelist takes turns casting non-lethal spells on the other. The one who is affected the less/ handles being affected the best wins

7. The Judge's Ear

Each duelist must make the judge give them the win, one way or another, as long as the way is using magic.

8. World Wrestling Esoterism

Everyone knows there is correlation between how powerful a caster you are, how good you are at punching, and how much punishment you can take. So, obviously, the best way to show off how you're a better mage than any half-baked hacks not worth the stars on their pointy hats is to pummel them with your bare hands, without even using magic. The fight is to non-lethal K.O.

What do you think? What are your ideas?

[Grey Watcher]

I think that Can You Handle This most closely models what I think of when I think of a Wizards' duel. You trap me in a forcecage? I teleport out. I try to wrap you on vines? You burn them away with a firey aura. Quest for Glory and Heroine's Quest have this kind of duel and it's pretty cool.

The downside is that it can turn into initiative winner attacks, loser counters round after round. In a one on one duel, maybe reroll initiative periodically. It just take turns I attack, you defend, you attack, I defend in that order, repeat until one side can't defend.

Judge's Ear is my least favorite, because it makes Dominate Person an Instant Win button.

[WeaselGuy]

I seem to recall one of the 3.5 books having information on spell duels. Probably Complete Arcane. Regardless, I remember it involving basically a duel to the death, but contained within a large globe that protected those outside the dueling area, and converting all damage to non-lethal. First one to hit zero HP falls unconscious, and is declared the loser. Obviously, in 3.5e, you have issues with the higher your level, the more nested contingencies, better defensives, more counterspells, etc. Wouldn't be as much of a problem in 5e. I also like the idea of either rolling for new initiative each round, or alternating who gets to cast first. Otherwise, it turns into a contest of "I win initiative. I cast Hold Person. Opponent casts Counterspell. Repeat until opponent runs out of higher spell slots. Then Cantrip them to death."

[Unoriginal]

I think that Can You Handle This most closely models what I think of when I think of a Wizards' duel. You trap me in a forcecage? I teleport out. I try to wrap you on vines? You burn them away with a firey aura. Quest for Glory and Heroine's Quest have this kind of duel and it's pretty cool.

The downside is that it can turn into initiative winner attacks, loser counters round after round. In a one on one duel, maybe reroll initiative periodically. It just take turns I attack, you defend, you attack, I defend in that order, repeat until one side can't defend.

The idea is: Duelist A casts spell, Duelist B handles it. Then Duelist B casts spell, Duelist A handles it.

It's not a fight and Initiative wouldn't be rolled.

Edited OP for clarity.



Judge's Ear is my least favorite, because it makes Dominate Person an Instant Win button.

Assuming both the judge and the other opponent let it work.

[Mith]

I think that Can You Handle This most closely models what I think of when I think of a Wizards' duel. You trap me in a forcecage? I teleport out. I try to wrap you on vines? You burn them away with a firey aura. Quest for Glory and Heroine's Quest have this kind of duel and it's pretty cool.

The downside is that it can turn into initiative winner attacks, loser counters round after round. In a one on one duel, maybe reroll initiative periodically. It just take turns I attack, you defend, you attack, I defend in that order, repeat until one side can't defend.

Judge's Ear is my least favorite, because it makes Dominate Person an Instant Win button.

If you have casting times depend on spell level, this could be mitigated. Granted, to balance out Saving Throw spam, you may need to bring back scaling spell save DC.

To try and keep this within bounded accuracy (max DC 19), perhaps 11+mod+rounddown(spell level/3). This puts a high level caster with maxed stat a cantrip (the fastest spell to cast) have a DC of 11+5+0 = 16. At 9th spell level this gives a DC of 11+5+3 = 19.

While this doesn't take caster level like the original formula (no proficiency), caster level can be seen to show up in the spells one can cast in both quantity and quality.

I also like the idea that if you want to pull off skill beyond the standard spell (the descriptive style), I can see a "casting skill" (essentially casting stat + proficiency) that allows one to add flair for a chance to pull off a stunt similar to the martial skill + attack.

[Max_Killjoy]

Given that counter-magic isn't much of a thing in D&D, I'm betting spell duels look a lot like rocket-tag.

[Unoriginal]

If you have casting times depend on spell level, this could be mitigated. Granted, to balance out Saving Throw spam, you may need to bring back scaling spell save DC.

To try and keep this within bounded accuracy (max DC 19), perhaps 11+mod+rounddown(spell level/3). This puts a high level caster with maxed stat a cantrip (the fastest spell to cast) have a DC of 11+5+0 = 16. At 9th spell level this gives a DC of 11+5+3 = 19.

While this doesn't take caster level like the original formula (no proficiency), caster level can be seen to show up in the spells one can cast in both quantity and quality.

I don't see how doing any of this would improve the experience. Bringing additional scaling for the spell save DCs would just make it impractical and annoying to use, in the 5e framework. And spells' casting speed isn't determined by their levels (which anyone who like Counterspell can thanks the gods for).



I also like the idea that if you want to pull off skill beyond the standard spell (the descriptive style), I can see a "casting skill" (essentially casting stat + proficiency) that allows one to add flair for a chance to pull off a stunt similar to the martial skill + attack.

I'm not sure what you mean. What martial skill + attack stunts?


Given that counter-magic isn't much of a thing in D&D, I'm betting spell duels look a lot like rocket-tag.

Which is what this thread is about avoiding.

[Mith]

Given that counter-magic isn't much of a thing in D&D, I'm betting spell duels look a lot like rocket-tag.

I wonder if allowing Shield to give advantage on saving throw for Physical saves (Fireball and Lightningbolt for example) would help mitigate this. So you can use Shield to try and put some resistance to a binding to try and give you a chance to escape. The spell casters that do not get Shield should have other spells that allow for a spell with a similar function.

It's not perfect. I personally would like the idea of going more Psionics style where your basic spells are represented in Cantrips, and spell points are used to modify the spell to do what you want.

Wizards and Clerics can switch out cantrips as they wish (with Domains and Schools granting bonus Cantrips), and Ritual (Notes or Prayers) to help conserve resources.

Sorcerers are given greater reserves to have more flexibility with their spells, plus potentially some short rest recall on mana. Warlocks are pure short rest with a lot of at will/ X per day spells.

Paladin and Bards get Conviction and Songs that allow them to do their various things. Perhaps Bards learn themes and are able to weave multiple themes together (essentially Concentration on multiple lower level spells, probably two maximum with some limitations)

Just spit-balling here.

[Unoriginal]

I wonder if allowing Shield to give advantage on saving throw for Physical saves (Fireball and Lightningbolt for example) would help mitigate this.

Overpowering the Shield spell would not help mitigate anything.



An actual fight to the death between two casters is going to be quick, flashy and rely on the casters making the right call to subdue their opponents before they themselves are, which fits both the game and the tropes associated with the casters perfectly. But this thread isn't about fights to the death, since those are already extensively covered in the 5e books.

[Mith]

I don't see how doing any of this would improve the experience. Bringing additional scaling for the spell save DCs would just make it impractical and annoying to use, in the 5e framework. And spells' casting speed isn't determined by their levels (which anyone who like Counterspell can thanks the gods for).



I'm not sure what you mean. What martial skill + attack stunts?



Which is what this thread is about avoiding.

This is an alternative rule set, not a status quo suggestion. As written, you have either alternating turns, or roll every time to potentially allow for switch up. Otherwise, I do not that think that standard 5e D&D has an easy way to model the more creative mage duels in stories.

What I am trying to do is develop tactics that have either pull off a big spell that takes a while to cast, or potentially switch to something faster to disrupt your opponent and get an upper hand. See the other caster trying to hit you with a Firebolt. Hit them with acid arrow a few times to try and break their Concentration. However, if this is the style of game, there needs to be a way to prevent high DC spam from cantrip spells. Hence scaling cantrips. Not ideal though

Counterspell would have to be a different under this style of game. Potentially Reaction spells allow you to immediately allot reserves, where regular spells cost more time.

As far as martial stunts, I think of Shoving Prone for Advantage, or Grapple. Which is a skill contest followed by an attack.

EDIT: Obviously I've just missed the entire point of this thread. I guess the only thing of value of anything I've thrown out here is potentially the idea of a "spell caster check" to represent skill that one brings to their casting beyond attack for targeting and the amount of power they can bring to bear. Otherwise, it's entirely assuming that the DM likes your description, since the spells as written don't really allow for one to "score" a spell cast, outside damage or level of effect.

Anyways, I'll drop out for now until the coffee kicks in at least.