Why doesn't V have Contingency?

[heavyfuel]

Seems weird considering V's an Evocation specialist. We know that both Miron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html)and Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)have the spell, so the spell exists in the OOTS universe and wasn't houseruled away or anything.

Now, sure, V doesn't have Teleport, but even something simple like Contingency + Bear's Endurance, Contingency + Stone Skin, Contingency + Invisibility, or even Contingency + Fly would be much better than not having the Contingency. Hell, twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1059.html)in the same week (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html)has V had an Overland Flight spell dispelled. Surely Contingency Fly wound be on their mind by now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They got unlucky with their booster packs.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

They got unlucky with their booster packs.

Grey Wolf

Speaking as a DM, the whole "spell assignment via booster pack" is an absolutely brilliant approach. It makes no sense from an economic standpoint, but its really convenient when it comes to game-play.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It makes no sense from an economic standpoint

I don't know about that. WotC seems to have made a significant amount of cash out of the approach. Why charge your customers only for new spells, when you can charge them for buying spells they already own? While tapping onto the gambling lever in their brains? Immoral, maybe, but economically senseless? No.

Grey Wolf

[heavyfuel]

They got unlucky with their booster packs.

Grey Wolf

Jokes aside, that was specific for that one magic shop. 39 comics later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html) V mentions buying a specific spell from a different shop (albeit with a strange interaction).

[Crusher]

I don't know about that. WotC seems to have made a significant amount of cash out of the approach. Why charge your customers only for new spells, when you can charge them for buying spells they already own? While tapping onto the gambling lever in their brains? Immoral, maybe, but economically senseless? No.

Grey Wolf

Huh. You know, that's a really good point.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Jokes aside, that was specific for that one magic shop. 39 comics later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html) V mentions buying a specific spell from a different shop (albeit with a strange interaction).

Jokes aside? Even easier: because Rich doesn't want V to have it.

Grey Wolf

[heavyfuel]

Jokes aside? Even easier: because Rich doesn't want V to have it.

Grey Wolf

Well, duh.

Rich can make anything, but it seems extremely out of character for V to not have it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, duh.

Rich can make anything, but it seems extremely out of character for V to not have it.

OK, now we are just going in circles: V doesn't have it because in canon it turns out to be extremely difficult for them to buy the spells they want. Because of, yes, joke reasons. But reasons nonetheless.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

Chances are V never found a mage who had contingency they could buy the spell from.

[heavyfuel]

OK, now we are just going in circles: V doesn't have it because in canon it turns out to be extremely difficult for them to buy the spells they want. Because of, yes, joke reasons. But reasons nonetheless.

Grey Wolf

Chances are V never found a mage who had contingency they could buy the spell from.

This shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of how V obtains most of their spells. Only a few are purchased or copied, the vast majority are personal research, in fact, two for every level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm). V could have gotten Contingency for 6 levels now. That's 12 spells with no need to buy them elsewhere. And yet, V chose not to pick an extremely versatile and powerful spell that happens to coincide with their specialization choice.

It's odd in the least

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of how V obtains most of their spells. Only a select few are purchased, the vast majority are personal research, in fact, two for every level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm). V could have gotten Contingency for 6 levels now. That's 12 spells with no need to buy them elsewhere. And yet, V chose not to pick an extremely versatile and powerful spell that happens to coincide with their specialization choice.

It's odd in the least

She chose instead other spells, such as the amazingly versatile (adjective) hand spells.

I'm still unsure what you are going on about: V doesn't have the spell because they don't want it as their free level up spell, and they can't buy it.

That you think it would be more optimal for them to have it than the spell they do have is irrelevant, because you are not V. So no, I don't find it at all odd.

Grey Wolf

[heavyfuel]

She chose instead other spells, such as the amazingly versatile (adjective) hand spells.

I'm still unsure what you are going on about: V doesn't have the spell because they don't want it as their free level up spell, and they can't buy it.

That you think it would be more optimal for them to have it than the spell they do have is irrelevant, because you are not V. So no, I don't find it at all odd.

Grey Wolf

It's not about being more optimal. It's about it being out of character for someone who prides themselves in being prepared.

[Aveline]

It's not about being more optimal. It's about it being out of character for someone who prides themselves in being prepared.

Priding oneself for being prepared is a much different thing from making preparations.

Arrogance has long been one of Vaarsuvius's core character traits, recent developments notwithstanding.

[Jasdoif]

I don't know about that. WotC seems to have made a significant amount of cash out of the approach. Why charge your customers only for new spells, when you can charge them for buying spells they already own? While tapping onto the gambling lever in their brains? Immoral, maybe, but economically senseless? No.The key difference is that spells can be duplicated cheaply and legitimately, from other spellbooks and from scrolls. Maintaining market control would require rooting out and crushing independent resellers...potentially every wizard who wants money. And would need to be done in-house, as an independent agent would be in position to ransack the spellbooks of the other wizards and break the system anyway.

Besides, this would be way easier to model for sorcerers anyway; sorcerers already learn spells of specific spell levels at level up, and there are already random tables for that for scrolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm).


Now, if the setting removes the ease of spell duplication and introduces a booster pack system that only one organization can offer; well, that's almost a campaign by itself!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's not about being more optimal. It's about it being out of character for someone who prides themselves in being prepared.

Until the current moment, V prided herself in being prepared for anything because they believed that there was no problem that couldn't be solved by sufficient amount of firepower. Contingency doesn't increase firepower, so it would not have been a priority for old V.

The new and improved V might consider contingency a higher priority... but on the other hand, they might not. I don't see how one specific spell is "out of character" given I know that similar pitches about "this is the most important spell for a wizard to prepare" can and have been made.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

It's not about being more optimal. It's about it being out of character for someone who prides themselves in being prepared.

V doesn't pride themselves on being prepared. V is not a Batman Wizard, they're a Blaster Wizard. They don't pride themselves on preparation, they pride themselves on possessing a level of overwhelming force, such that no enemy can stand against it. Sadly, this means V has very few options against an enemy they CAN'T instantly reduce to a pile of gently-glowing ash, but V has never claimed to be a great tactician. That's Sir Greenhilt's job, if anyone's. Their job is to crush enemies beneath the ruthless might of arcane force, a way of thinking they've paid dearly for recently. Plus, even the Batman Wizard strategy has its weaknesses. Batman is relatively unlikely to die because he bummed a Reflex save: a Batman Wizard cannot generally claim the same.

[Kish]

Yes, this thread is striking me as a lot like the recurring "why did Dorukan lose to Xykon? Tiers! Wizards always prepared for anything by definition!" threads.

Ultimately, perhaps the best answer to the question "why doesn't Vaarsuvius have X spell?" is simply:

Because Vaarsuvius is not Batman.

[Peelee]

It's not about being more optimal. It's about it being out of character for someone who prides themselves in being prepared.

All other arguments aside, it could easily be explained as a logistical problem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html).

And even then, V famously doesn't prepare to lose, which Contingency explicitly is. Even when V was soul spliced, they didn't bother to put a contingency on themself. So we have in-comic evidence that, no, using Contingency is not at all out of character for V.

[Quild]

And even then, V famously doesn't prepare to lose, which Contingency explicitly is. Even when V was soul spliced, they didn't bother to put a contingency on themself. So we have in-comic evidence that, no, using Contingency is not at all out of character for V.

I believe that The Giant once replied to why Malack didn't prepare "word of recall" by saying that if toi prepare spells for when you might lose the fight, you actually increases your chances of losing.
Because you have less slots available for a more winning strategy.

Maybe V thinks the same.

[Peelee]

I believe that The Giant once replied to why Malack didn't prepare "word of recall" by saying that if toi prepare spells for when you might lose the fight, you actually increases your chances of losing.
Because you have less slots available for a more winning strategy.

Maybe V thinks the same.

True; after all, Miron prepared for a loss with his Contingency, and he did end up losing specifically because of that.

Of course, he also lived where Malack didn't, so there's something to be said for safety nets in any event. :smallwink:

[heavyfuel]

All other arguments aside, it could easily be explained as a logistical problem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html).

And even then, V famously doesn't prepare to lose, which Contingency explicitly is. Even when V was soul spliced, they didn't bother to put a contingency on themself. So we have in-comic evidence that, no, using Contingency is not at all out of character for V.


I believe that The Giant once replied to why Malack didn't prepare "word of recall" by saying that if toi prepare spells for when you might lose the fight, you actually increases your chances of losing.
Because you have less slots available for a more winning strategy.

Maybe V thinks the same.

These are actually well thought out responses that don't rely on "because not". I hadn't thought of of it this way, especially in regards to the Soul Splices.

Do you happen to have a link to the Mallak Word of Recall thread?

[Jasdoif]

Do you happen to have a link to the Mallak Word of Recall thread?Perhaps you're looking for these?




But it can't work that way. At some point, a character decides that he is protected enough, and that he needs some offensive weapons/spells if he is to go against dangerous enemies. Since he already has "backdoors into spells he helps design, studying grappling as a means of immobilizing a caster protected from his energy/blood drain, researching and double preparing a spell to protect against his biggest weakness and keeping ~50 charges of it on a staff", why would he need to waste yet another spell slot on this? I.e. when, according to you, is it enough? Because it sounds like if you were Malack, you wouldn't get out of bed without filling every 6th level spell slot with WoR and similar.
As others noted, I find it entirely in keeping with what we know of Malack that there is a limit to his precautions. Being a vampire already gives you quite a few more "last layers of defense" compared to a regular human and Malack's low number of spells means that there is a point where he absolutely can't be killed, but it coincides with the point where he stops being useful for any mission but "Don't get killed".
Which is why he prepares *two* castings of Protection from Daylight and also has the spell locked in to his staff. Is that not crazy enough prepared for you? There comes a point where even the most cautious character has to say, "If I prepare any more corner case or defensive spells I won't have anything left to attack with!", and in Malack's case this was where he drew the line.
Sixth level slots may well be Malack's highest level spell slot. It's easiest to say that he should 'always' memorize word of recall, but there's other spells competing for that slot and competing hard.All of this.

Also, I would point out that Malack was being expected by Tarquin to fulfill the traditional role of the cleric in this party: healing. Since he's an Evil cleric, that means he has to actually prepare his healing spells in advance. So in addition to the Harm and Greater Dispel Magic spells he already cast, he had at least one Heal spell prepared.

At what point did he feel confident that his amazing supernatural abilities, custom magic items, and defensive spells prepared were going to be enough? This point. Being wrong does not make him a fool.

Thinking about it more, I would also suggest that being a cleric of Death and Destruction would have played a part in where Malack drew the line at preparedness. I feel like at a certain point, Malack would have said to himself, "If I take all of these many and varied precautions and am still destroyed, then it is Nergal's unholy will."

Of course, he felt somewhat differently when he was actually being destroyed.

To paraphrase an old joke: Do you accept the story premise that Nale was more prepared, more capable, and more driven to kill Malack than Malack himself was expecting?

Yes?

Then we're just haggling over price.

And if you don't accept that, if you think Malack deserved to win, then no amount of wasted panels showing spells and countermeasures would have changed that opinion. If I had put in a Word of Recall followed by Z counterspelling it or something, then there would have been some other strategy that you would have hung your hat on to say, "Why didn't Malack do this??" If you don't accept that Nale was already aware of all of Malack's defenses and had a means to counter them, then nothing will change that. If you do accept it, then it doesn't matter how much of it I show.

And if I had wasted Malacks one round with a Word of Recall, I would have lost the much-more-dramatically-impactful moment of Malack deciding to spend his one action trying to kill Nale back. I assure you that if the D&D rules gave vampires 3 rounds before sun-death, I would have spent one of those rounds on a Word of Recall attempt that was stopped by Z somehow. But when I only had one round, I chose to use it showing that Malack wanted to kill Nale just as much as Nale wanted to kill Malack. Because as I've said before, I care more about the emotional content of the story than I do about plausibility. I would rather have a story that felt right and was riddled with logical errors than a story that was logically flawless but repetitive and dull.

If you can get through the all-caps style, I recommend Film Crit Hulk's (very long) essay on plot-holes and logic (http://badassdigest.com/2012/10/30/film-crit-hulk-smash-hulk-vs.-plot-holes-and-movie-logic/). It's geared more toward movies than comics, but a lot of the same points apply.

[Goblin_Priest]

Until the current moment, V prided herself in being prepared for anything because they believed that there was no problem that couldn't be solved by sufficient amount of firepower. Contingency doesn't increase firepower, so it would not have been a priority for old V.

The new and improved V might consider contingency a higher priority... but on the other hand, they might not. I don't see how one specific spell is "out of character" given I know that similar pitches about "this is the most important spell for a wizard to prepare" can and have been made.

Grey Wolf

Contingency is a villain spell, plot-wise. Or NPC. It's pretty anti-dramatic if the PCs start using it, imo.

That said, sure contingency could increase firepower. "Contingency: cast scorching ray on the next enemy I attack".

[Riftwolf]

You can only have one contingency running at a time, and only specific events trigger it. Could be V has been running contingency off-panel for half the comic, but s/he's terrible at guessing what the right event should be.
Contingency->sending might come up next time V gets yanked to Hell, just to give Roy a heads up. That'd be the more dramatically useful way to use the spell, imo, rather than a glorified 'run away!' button.

[heavyfuel]

Perhaps you're looking for these?






Pretty sure it is. Thanks!


Contingency is a villain spell, plot-wise. Or NPC. It's pretty anti-dramatic if the PCs start using it, imo.

That said, sure contingency could increase firepower. "Contingency: cast scorching ray on the next enemy I attack".

Not sure I agree. Good drama can exist regardless and creating dramatic situations even with the Contingency spell is totally possible. Plus, not everything has to be dramatic.

Contingency must have a companion spell that affect the caster. Having Scorching Ray as a Contingent spell just means you'll deal a bunch of fire damage to yourself lol


You can only have one contingency running at a time, and only specific events trigger it. Could be V has been running contingency off-panel for half the comic, but s/he's terrible at guessing what the right event should be.
Contingency->sending might come up next time V gets yanked to Hell, just to give Roy a heads up. That'd be the more dramatically useful way to use the spell, imo, rather than a glorified 'run away!' button.

The right event can simply be "When someone targets me with a weapon attack, cast stoneskin". Something simple that is bound to happen and will save your life someday.

Sending isn't a viable candidate for the Contingency spell. Well, it is, but you'll Send a message to yourself. Not terribly useful

[Resileaf]

The right event can simply be "When someone targets me with a weapon attack, cast stoneskin". Something simple that is bound to happen and will save your life someday.


V had cast stoneskin before the battle started. Why would they have a contingency to cast stoneskin on themselves in that case?

[Aeson]

The key difference is that spells can be duplicated cheaply and legitimately, from other spellbooks and from scrolls. Maintaining market control would require rooting out and crushing independent resellers...potentially every wizard who wants money. And would need to be done in-house, as an independent agent would be in position to ransack the spellbooks of the other wizards and break the system anyway.
"By opening this package, you, hereafter referred to as the USER..."
- Sentence fragment from the back of the discarded wrapper of a Spell Booster Pack.


Sending isn't a viable candidate for the Contingency spell. Well, it is, but you'll Send a message to yourself. Not terribly useful
As long as you can set the contents of the message when you cast the Contingency spell, I could see that as being reasonably useful. It's basically a way to give yourself a reminder. Know you're going into the Lost Woods later and get directions on how to pass through successfully from somebody? Contingency: If: About to enter Lost Woods, Send: "[Instructions for navigating Lost Woods.]"

[Maryring]

Because like the rest of the order, they're not allowed to be competent so that most fights can be won by deus ex machinas.

[woweedd]

Because like the rest of the order, they're not allowed to be competent so that most fights can be won by deus ex machinas.
A. Not what Deus Ex Machina means.
B. Have your read the comic? The Order's incompetence, both individually and as a group, is one of their most notable traits. as Elan put it, "We mostly run away or have mixed victories.".

[Lacuna Caster]

This shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of how V obtains most of their spells. Only a few are purchased or copied, the vast majority are personal research, in fact, two for every level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm). V could have gotten Contingency for 6 levels now. That's 12 spells with no need to buy them elsewhere. And yet, V chose not to pick an extremely versatile and powerful spell that happens to coincide with their specialization choice.

It's odd in the least
Heavyfuel is right and everyone disagreeing is wrong: V not having Contingency is dumb and doesn't make sense. (This is particularly true post-soul-splice, when 'not wielding arcane power like a cudgel' was supposed to be their baseline minimum takeaway.)


Because like the rest of the order, they're not allowed to be competent so that most fights can be won by deus ex machinas.
Also, this.

[Goblin_Priest]

Pretty sure it is. Thanks!



Not sure I agree. Good drama can exist regardless and creating dramatic situations even with the Contingency spell is totally possible. Plus, not everything has to be dramatic.

Contingency must have a companion spell that affect the caster. Having Scorching Ray as a Contingent spell just means you'll deal a bunch of fire damage to yourself lol



The right event can simply be "When someone targets me with a weapon attack, cast stoneskin". Something simple that is bound to happen and will save your life someday.

Sending isn't a viable candidate for the Contingency spell. Well, it is, but you'll Send a message to yourself. Not terribly useful

Oh right, contingency is a "self" target only, right? Can you do a "Contingency: fireball self if cast protection from fire"? Too lazy to look it up. I never really played wizards much. :P

There are multiple issues, story-wise, with putting contigency on your heroes. One is redudancy. Typically, we see the heroes cast most of their buffs, we know what they are doing. Are we going to be shown contingency being cast all the time? Sure, it could potentially just be left as a surprise and not shown, that's plausible, just doesn't seem likely to me. How would it bring the story forward to show us a contingency spell being triggered? If it's brought in, it should be for a reason. And if that's the case, then the paired spell should be of particular importance, as should the trigger. "Stoneskin if attacked" makes sense, to a certain degree, but contributes nothing to the plot.

Furthermore, it would then inevitably bring endless discussions about what should be contingencied. Using it on a buff that triggers on the first battle is not particularily spectacular, as you've wasted two spell slots to cast one spell (of level no greater than 6, depending on your level, and probably 5 in V's case). Otherwise, the spell is fairly powerful, and open-ended, and just doesn't feel like the kind of power that makes for a better hero story. Contingency to make an NPC retreat is one thing, but where would V retreat to (if she could), and what would that imply for the rest of the party? I wouldn't expect V to willingly abandon the rest of the Order, at this point.

[Grey Watcher]

I don't see what's so controversial about "V never had the opportunity to get the spell into his spellbook". One of the few disadvantages specific to being a Wizard (as opposed to a Cleric or Sorcerer) is that you have almost no control over what spells you even have the opportunity to learn. Clerics have them all (as long as they don't cheese off their deity too much) and Sorcerer's just pick what they know from the whole list (but are confined to those choices thereafter). But apart from a few from leveling up, Wizards are at the mercy of what the world gives them the opportunity to learn. And I guess there were spells that V (wisely or not) deemed to be higher up on the must-have list to spend the few "learn from leveling" opportunities on.

Yeah, the details of why V never gets access to Contingency are much more whimsical and absurd than usual because its a parody comic. But it boils down to the same issue: V can only learn those spells that the author/DM/Powers That Be allow.

(Yes, Shojo's library probably had Contingency somewhere in it, but V was still in full "blast it until it stops being a problem" mode and therefore, once again (probably foolishly) prioritized other spells over it.)

[Zenzis]

Rich can make anything, but it seems extremely out of character for V to not have it.

During which part of V's character development is it in character for them to use a high level spell slot on a safety measure for themselves? The part where they feel like brute force arcane power can overcome any situation and go in blasting magic everywhere up front? Or the part where they feel extreme guilt over running away during the battle for Azure City and are rethinking, focusing on how they can use their spells to better support their team?

[Peelee]

Heavyfuel is right and everyone disagreeing is wrong: V not having Contingency is dumb and doesn't make sense.

https://media.giphy.com/media/26BRrSvJUa0crqw4E/giphy.gif

[Aveline]

I've been misquoting The Big Lebowski this whole time?!

I could have sworn it began "Yeah, well, you know, that's just..."

[Peelee]

I've been misquoting The Big Lebowski this whole time?!

I could have sworn it began "Yeah, well, you know, that's just..."

The dude would abide. :smallsmile:

[zimmerwald1915]

Heavyfuel is right and everyone disagreeing is wrong: V not having Contingency is dumb and doesn't make sense.
Nah. Vaarsuvius not having contingency is dumb and thus makes complete sense. You basically can't have a D&D wizard on the heroes' side in your story and maintain the tension, without having the wizard make bad decisions.

[snowblizz]

(Yes, Shojo's library probably had Contingency somewhere in it, but V was still in full "blast it until it stops being a problem" mode and therefore, once again (probably foolishly) prioritized other spells over it.)

And I bet the next 6 pages after Power Word : Stun (or whatever it was) in V's spellbook were going to be for Contingency. But that's not how the laws of the universe lets you do things apparently.

[woweedd]

Heavyfuel is right and everyone disagreeing is wrong: V not having Contingency is dumb and doesn't make sense. (This is particularly true post-soul-splice, when 'not wielding arcane power like a cudgel' was supposed to be their baseline minimum takeaway.)


Also, this.
A. Yeah, because V is not the type of Wizard who prepares for the possibility of loss, and, post-Soul Splice, it’s entirely possible they haven’t had the opportunity.

B. Yeah. As I said, the comic has been pretty clear that The Order are a bunch of incompet yahoos who have only really had one unambiguous victory, and whose main asset is their willingness to keep fighting despite these facts.

[Goblin_Priest]

Nah. Vaarsuvius not having contingency is dumb and thus makes complete sense. You basically can't have a D&D wizard on the heroes' side in your story and maintain the tension, without having the wizard make bad decisions.

Agreed.

Just like V's choice of barred schools. Being unoptimal is part of who those characters are.

Heck, Roy doesn't even have a ranged weapon, and until recently, couldn't do any ranged attack. Also relied on a single weapon without backups, which, again until recently, was especially dumb.

Elan said he'd keep his new spell slot for Neutralize Poison, which is not really a very good choice for the party bard if you ask me (though, story-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if it was made to matter).

V not having contingency is not really a huge shock, all other things considered.

[woweedd]

Agreed.

Just like V's choice of barred schools. Being unoptimal is part of who those characters are.

Heck, Roy doesn't even have a ranged weapon, and until recently, couldn't do any ranged attack. Also relied on a single weapon without backups, which, again until recently, was especially dumb.

Elan said he'd keep his new spell slot for Neutralize Poison, which is not really a very good choice for the party bard if you ask me (though, story-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if it was made to matter).

V not having contingency is not really a huge shock, all other things considered.
Plus, like V, they have chartization reasons behind it. I’ve never been one the people who considers optimization and rilleplaying opposed, but this is why.

[zimmerwald1915]

Elan said he'd keep his new spell slot for Neutralize Poison, which is not really a very good choice for the party bard if you ask me (though, story-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if it was made to matter).
He used it on Vaarsuvius when he, she, and Haley were first captured by Ganjii and Enor.

[Goblin_Priest]

He used it on Vaarsuvius when he, she, and Haley were first captured by Ganjii and Enor.

Heh, I didn't remember that. Looking at the strip, it did not really look meaningful, though. It didn't make it look like V was in huge immediate peril, and it didn't seemingly help them win the fight. Nothing that couldn't have been handled differently with minor adjustements, anyways, story-wise.

[Quild]

Elan said he'd keep his new spell slot for Neutralize Poison, which is not really a very good choice for the party bard if you ask me (though, story-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if it was made to matter).

Even if the spell had not being used and was never to be used, I think it would matter story-wise nonetheless.

[tyckspoon]

V doesn't have Contingency because The Giant, in His vast wisdom, has decided to spare us thousands of posts arguing about what the Contingency is, whether or not it should have gone off in a certain situation, and which spell V should have attached to it and what trigger condition to use instead of whatever was depicted. For this pre-emptive destruction of hundreds of utterly pointless threads and thousands of wasted hours, we are thankful. :smalltongue:

[Reboot]

And I bet the next 6 pages after Power Word : Stun (or whatever it was) in V's spellbook were going to be for Contingency. But that's not how the laws of the universe lets you do things apparently.

Well, Rich was removing the urine a bit there - whatever the components at casting time, every spell in a wizard's spellbook is meant to require lots of detail and memorisation every day, hence why their casting stat is INT. It doesn't take much intelligence to memorise a single word.

[Peelee]

Well, Rich was removing the urine a bit there

It took a minute to realize you were rephrasing British slang.

[Morty]

Once again, it amazes me that people argue for worse, more boring storytelling that gets bogged down in details for the sake of faithfulness to a ruleset that barely works on a good day. Not even to the ruleset, really. Just a particularly annoying and resilient approach to it. What would actually change if Vaarsuvius used Contingency? Besides wasting some panels on showing its effects?

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, Rich was removing the urine a bit there - whatever the components at casting time, every spell in a wizard's spellbook is meant to require lots of detail and memorisation every day, hence why their casting stat is INT. It doesn't take much intelligence to memorise a single word.

That depends on the length of the word.

I'd say, it's pretty hard to memorize a 6 page long word. ;)

[zimmerwald1915]

It took a minute to realize you were rephrasing British slang.
Badly. It should be "appropriating the urine."

[Prinygod]

V had cast stoneskin before the battle started. Why would they have a contingency to cast stoneskin on themselves in that case?

The beauty of contingency is it very flexible, and efficient as preparation. V could cast contingent stone skin to trigger an event they can control such as "next time i say purple banana out loud". The spell lasts for 1day/level, this allows them to prepare other spells in those slots on subsequent days. In addition they would be able to trigger the spell as a free action as talking is. This method is even better for something they don't cast all the time but prepare just in case, like invisibility. This isn't including all the other uses of contingency.

[georgie_leech]

The beauty of contingency is it very flexible, and efficient as preparation. V could cast contingent stone skin to trigger an event they can control such as "next time i say purple banana out loud". The spell lasts for 1day/level, this allows them to prepare other spells in those slots on subsequent days. In addition they would be able to trigger the spell as a free action as talking is. This method is even better for something they don't cast all the time but prepare just in case, like invisibility. This isn't including all the other uses of contingency.

I think it might actually take longer for V to say "purple banana" than it would to say "Stoneskin." Not that verbosity has ever stopped V in the past :smallwink:

But that would mean taking in-comic time to explain that V is setting up Contingency to enable them to say a word to protect themselves from physical attacks, enabling a scenario where they can be depicted saying a word to protect themselves from attack. Without it, V can be depicted... saying a word to protect themselves from attack anyway :smalltongue:

Contingency may make V more versatile, if you follow the rules involved carefully, but using it would make The Giant less flexible in what he can or can't portray.

[Zenzis]

It doesn't take much intelligence to memorise a single word.

Does the fact I can never spell restaraunt right on the first try say something about me then?

[Prinygod]

I think it might actually take longer for V to say "purple banana" than it would to say "Stoneskin." Not that verbosity has ever stopped V in the past :smallwink:

But that would mean taking in-comic time to explain that V is setting up Contingency to enable them to say a word to protect themselves from physical attacks, enabling a scenario where they can be depicted saying a word to protect themselves from attack. Without it, V can be depicted... saying a word to protect themselves from attack anyway :smalltongue:

Contingency may make V more versatile, if you follow the rules involved carefully, but using it would make The Giant less flexible in what he can or can't portray.

I was responding to a post asking why v would want contingent stone skin, when they could just cast it before battle like they did. I was not suggesting that V not using it is some sort of story telling flaw. Please don't put words in my mouth.

The length of the word is irrelevant, spell casting is more involved than saying the magic word. Its why spells take actions, and can be interrupted, where as talking does not.

[Goblin_Priest]

The beauty of contingency is it very flexible, and efficient as preparation. V could cast contingent stone skin to trigger an event they can control such as "next time i say purple banana out loud". The spell lasts for 1day/level, this allows them to prepare other spells in those slots on subsequent days. In addition they would be able to trigger the spell as a free action as talking is. This method is even better for something they don't cast all the time but prepare just in case, like invisibility. This isn't including all the other uses of contingency.

Sure, you can cheese out Contingency, that's really just more reasons not to give it to your protagonists in the story.

If you want a headcanon explanation, just tell yourself that "spell-using creature's eyelashes" are hard for V to come by. It's also kinda creepy.

[Lacuna Caster]

V doesn't have Contingency because The Giant, in His vast wisdom, has decided to spare us thousands of posts arguing about what the Contingency is, whether or not it should have gone off in a certain situation, and which spell V should have attached to it and what trigger condition to use instead of whatever was depicted. For this pre-emptive destruction of hundreds of utterly pointless threads and thousands of wasted hours, we are thankful. :smalltongue:

Contingency may make V more versatile, if you follow the rules involved carefully, but using it would make The Giant less flexible in what he can or can't portray.
If you want to argue there are meta-reasons X, Y and Z for why having Contingency on V's spell list would impose additional bookkeeping burdens on the author and/or that the vast majority of readers will neither notice nor care, and/or that dumb or irrational behaviour on the Order's part is more the norm than the exception, I can't say that you're wrong. But if we were talking about what a real person with V's real INT score and V's ostensible character development would almost certainly do given the opportunity, learning Contingency is on that list.

[Goblin_Priest]

If you want to argue there are meta-reasons X, Y and Z for why having Contingency on V's spell list would impose additional bookkeeping burdens on the author and/or that the vast majority of readers will neither notice nor care, and/or that dumb or irrational behaviour on the Order's part is more the norm than the exception, I can't say that you're wrong. But if we were talking about what a real person with V's real INT score and V's ostensible character development would almost certainly do given the opportunity, learning Contingency is on that list.

No wizard in their right mind would bar conjuration. And all wizards are very intelligent, right?

So, why did V bar it?

Because Rich considered giving conjuration to the protagonists story-breaking.

It's totally meta, but it's also totally reasonable. "Not learning Contingency", in the grand schemes of things, seems less stupid than "barring conjuration", so I have no qualms with V not having Contingency.

[Morty]

When V decided to use magic in a more intelligent and subtle way, some readers seem to have taken it to mean that they would finally act like a proper optimized Batman wizard from Internet forums. And they've been grievously disappointed ever since.

[Goblin_Priest]

When V decided to use magic in a more intelligent and subtle way, some readers seem to have taken it to mean that they would finally act like a proper optimized Batman wizard from Internet forums. And they've been grievously disappointed ever since.

Also worth pointing out that they didn't have all that much downtime since that happened, so V's largely just using the tools already selected before the epiphany in better ways.

[Lacuna Caster]

No wizard in their right mind would bar conjuration. And all wizards are very intelligent, right?

So, why did V bar it?
Because the laws of the universe were revised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) since then. (As it happens, I don't think there is anything inherently story-breaking about teleportation magic- it's used all the time in major franchises like Harry Potter or Star Wars (via the hyperdrive)- but that's another discussion.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Because the laws of the universe were revised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) since then. (As it happens, I don't think there is anything inherently story-breaking about teleportation magic- it's used all the time in major franchises like Harry Potter or Star Wars (via the hyperdrive)- but that's another discussion.)
I struggle to imagine Conjuration without teleportation, and I haven't read the 3.0 spell lists. But it seems to me that Vaarsuvius initially banned the schools that were most associated with creating minions. This would fit nicely with her character, as invoked by Zz'drti - if I summon an outsider or create an undead to solve my problems, then I didn't really solve my problems, did I?

[Riftwolf]

I struggle to imagine Conjuration without teleportation, and I haven't read the 3.0 spell lists. But it seems to me that Vaarsuvius initially banned the schools that were most associated with creating minions. This would fit nicely with her character, as invoked by Zz'drti - if I summon an outsider or create an undead to solve my problems, then I didn't really solve my problems, did I?

I think Teleport can fit under Transmutation if you think of it as manipulating space-time, which is a bit neater than 'summoning myself to one of three alternate dimensions then summoning myself back by a variety of methods to travel between two points' (my take on conjure-porting) (not canon AFAIK)

[Kish]

Harry Potter established as soon as it introduced teleportation at all that the site of most of the books' action was the equivalent of dimensionally locked.

[woweedd]

Harry Potter established as soon as it introduced teleportation at all that the site of most of the books' action was the equivalent of dimensionally locked.
Thank you, Kish.

[Snails]

Until the current moment, V prided herself in being prepared for anything because they believed that there was no problem that couldn't be solved by sufficient amount of firepower. Contingency doesn't increase firepower, so it would not have been a priority for old V.

Exactly this.

Younger V's definition of being "smarter and better" is believing that magic crudely and forcefully applied would solve anything.

It is perfectly in character for V to have neither DDoor/Teleport nor Contingency. To argue otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand who V was.

That V's definition of being "smarter and better" does not match most Readers' definition is not a flaw in the story, but a very purposeful choice by the author. OotS is, among other things, a melodrama. The real drama is in how characters with obvious flaws struggle and grow (or do not grow) when challenged by their own failings.

[zimmerwald1915]

OotS is, among other things, a melodrama. The real drama is in how characters with obvious flaws struggle and grow (or do not grow) when challenged by their own failings.
That is not melodrama. Melodrama, more than anything else, is a style, emphasizing theatricality (read: over-the-topness). What you are describing is tragedy, which can certainly be played melodramatically, but which can also be played realistically or in many other styles.

[Snails]

That is not melodrama. Melodrama, more than anything else, is a style, emphasizing theatricality (read: over-the-topness). What you are describing is tragedy, which can certainly be played melodramatically, but which can also be played realistically or in many other styles.

Fair enough. The stage has been set with mostly melodramatic characters, and there has been no particular effort to make the flaws of those characters subtle or necessarily "realistic" (whatever that means).

V's tale is a tragedy told in the style of melodrama with comedic decorations.

[zimmerwald1915]

"realistic" (whatever that means).
Realism in the sense of the recurrent artistic movement/style. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_(arts))

OOTS, being fantastical, is pretty clearly not realistic.

[Snails]

OOTS, being fantastical, is pretty clearly not realistic.

Yet some Readers seem to have expectations that they think of as "realistic", presumably informed by their experience at the gaming table.

So, this is another reasonable definition of "realistic", one that should not be applied.

[Kish]

I don't think "realistic" is quite the right word for the recurring "the characters aren't optimizing properly Burlew will be hearing from my lawyer about having a wizard not be Batman" complaints.

[Prinygod]

Exactly this.

Younger V's definition of being "smarter and better" is believing that magic crudely and forcefully applied would solve anything.

It is perfectly in character for V to have neither DDoor/Teleport nor Contingency. To argue otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand who V was.

That V's definition of being "smarter and better" does not match most Readers' definition is not a flaw in the story, but a very purposeful choice by the author. OotS is, among other things, a melodrama. The real drama is in how characters with obvious flaws struggle and grow (or do not grow) when challenged by their own failings.

V believes in the superiority of magical might in general. Please point to them dismissing the more subtle uses of magic. This is a person who would spend spell slots and spell pages on spells like explosive runes, invisibility, dispell magic, suggestion, owl wisdom, (which won't help their spellcasting). I have no issue with them not having contingency, but do take issue with your descriptions of V.

[Goblin_Priest]

Because the laws of the universe were revised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) since then. (As it happens, I don't think there is anything inherently story-breaking about teleportation magic- it's used all the time in major franchises like Harry Potter or Star Wars (via the hyperdrive)- but that's another discussion.)


I struggle to imagine Conjuration without teleportation, and I haven't read the 3.0 spell lists. But it seems to me that Vaarsuvius initially banned the schools that were most associated with creating minions. This would fit nicely with her character, as invoked by Zz'drti - if I summon an outsider or create an undead to solve my problems, then I didn't really solve my problems, did I?

Yea, same. I really don't remember 3.0 well enough, but even without teleportation in it, I don't think it's a school that many would have barred.


Harry Potter established as soon as it introduced teleportation at all that the site of most of the books' action was the equivalent of dimensionally locked.

Yea, basically every story that introduces such mechanics, like teleportation, or invisibility, then automatically need to give reasons for it never to work again, or rarely work again, if they don't outright just forget about it forever.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yea, basically every story that introduces such mechanics, like teleportation, or invisibility, then automatically need to give reasons for it never to work again, or rarely work again, if they don't outright just forget about it forever.
The equivalent to teleport and wind-walk spells are used frequently in Harry Potter, particularly during the later books. There can be both mouses and mouse-traps, of course, and it's quite fair to imagine that the one would prompt the other, but this idea that instant transport will negate all drama or suspense is mostly nonsense.

[Fyraltari]

The equivalent to teleport and wind-walk spells are used frequently in Harry Potter, particularly during the later books. There can be both mouses and mouse-traps, of course, and it's quite fair to imagine that the one would prompt the other, but this idea that instant transport will negate all drama or suspense is mostly nonsense.

There's stransport and transport. In he case of OOTS, having Teleportation available would eliminate most of the plot.

[Morty]

The equivalent to teleport and wind-walk spells are used frequently in Harry Potter, particularly during the later books. There can be both mouses and mouse-traps, of course, and it's quite fair to imagine that the one would prompt the other, but this idea that instant transport will negate all drama or suspense is mostly nonsense.

Which is presumably why no one has ever said that it'll negate all drama. But it doesn't need to do it in order to be far more trouble than it's worth for this particular story.

[zimmerwald1915]

Which is presumably why no one has ever said that it'll negate all drama. But it doesn't need to do it in order to be far more trouble than it's worth for this particular story.
"No one," you say?


Yea, basically every story that introduces such mechanics, like teleportation, or invisibility, then automatically need to give reasons for it never to work again, or rarely work again, if they don't outright just forget about it forever.
It may very well be that teleportation would undermine much of the plot of The Order of the Stick. I believe Mr. Burlew has said as much (summon banana IX). But people have indeed taken that statement out of context, and possibly conflated it with Mr. Burlew's statements about true resurrection, to make the much more sweeping claim that it is a bad device for all stories in all places and times.

[Jasdoif]

I believe Mr. Burlew has said as much (summon banana IX).You mean these?




Is there any particular part of the D&D 3e rules that "gets in the way" of your story more consistently than others? I mean, it doesn't really get in the way because it's swept aside the moment it becomes inconvenient, but I hope the question makes sense.True Resurrection, without a doubt. It's literally impossible for a mortal character to ever be completely out of the story because of its existence. Actually, all forms of resurrection are kind of a pain in the ass, though the other versions have roadblocks you can throw in the path. But because True Resurrection exists, every character death is met with, "Well, they could still come back!" forever.

Also, Teleport. Characters who blip right to their end destination do not for an engaging journey make.


There was also no switch to Conjuration as a barred school, so much as I didn't decide what V's barred school was until later when I needed to eliminate teleportation as a possible plot-killer and forgot about the spiked tentacles. However, if you really need it to all fit together smoothly, just assume that anytime V is seen casting a Conjuration spell in the early part of the strip, he/she is actually casting Shadow Conjuration and everyone around her/him is failing their saving throw.



Can you list all the material you created for the 3.5 books that you contributed too? IIRC the acid shark is one, but I don't know of any others specifically.I'm not going to dig up the books and list off the contents, no. I wrote half of Dungeonscape, half of the Eberron Explorer's Handbook, about 15 monsters for Monster Manual III, and a dozen illusion spells for Dragon Magazine that got picked up into the Spell Compendium.(I bring this one up because Explorer's Handbook has a little section on "ways for the DM to ensure that the teleport spell does not allow player characters to bypass an adventure"; the relevance thereof is an exercise left to the reader)While there's no direct mention of teleportation that I saw in my quick review, I will note that the book's original idea was exploring "What would happen if Roy suddenly left?" That required keeping Roy dead long enough to explore the ramifications, and the method chose for that was keeping Roy's body separated from the person who could cast raise dead and resurrection....Which, naturally, teleportation would negate in short order.

[Snails]

Yea, basically every story that introduces such mechanics, like teleportation, or invisibility, then automatically need to give reasons for it never to work again, or rarely work again, if they don't outright just forget about it forever.

Now that you mention it, it has been established that Xykon is surprisingly incapable of dealing with Invisibility, but it was handled in a manner such that he might not realize from his encounter with V how dangerous a weakness that could be.

I would bet a large pile of Quatloos that facet will make a significant appearance in the final showdown, even if it is more likely to save the skin of a beloved PC rather than actually decide the result.

[zimmerwald1915]

Now that you mention it, it has been established that Xykon is surprisingly incapable of dealing with Invisibility
It established no such thing. "Right now, power takes the form of a +8 racial bonus to Listen checks."

Xykon may not have true seeing, mind, but that is by no means the only way to detect an invisible character. Nor is detecting the character necessary to neutralize the threat they pose - you can, for example, fill a room with enough fire to kill everything besides your fire-immune self.

[Peelee]

It established no such thing. "Right now, power takes the form of a +8 racial bonus to Listen checks."

And power for V could have taken the form of a 3rd level Fly spell, if they'd still had it.

[woweedd]

The equivalent to teleport and wind-walk spells are used frequently in Harry Potter, particularly during the later books. There can be both mouses and mouse-traps, of course, and it's quite fair to imagine that the one would prompt the other, but this idea that instant transport will negate all drama or suspense is mostly nonsense.

As has been noted:


Harry Potter established as soon as it introduced teleportation at all that the site of most of the books' action was the equivalent of dimensionally locked.

Also, i'd note that Harry Potter, with one exception in the last book, unlike OOTS, is not a journey narrative. Most of the plot centers around Hogwarts, and excursions outside are rare, so Apportion is used to get to them. OOTS, on the other hand, is a story heavily centered around the travel from Gate to Gate, and the trouble our protagonists run into in the process. in most cases, and, thus, the protagonists having the ability to skip the travel time would drastically affect the plot. Not to mention, they literally centered a whole book around the main characters being unable to contact each other.

[Rack]

Counterpoint: V does have a Contingency set up but it hasn’t triggered yet. Contingency is a great way to make a dramatic turnaround for the players ONCE. After that it potentially kills drama as soon as V gets a chance to refresh it because every bad situation needs to show a contingency being fired before people take it seriously. V will have a contingency fire right near the end of the story.

[Snails]

It established no such thing. "Right now, power takes the form of a +8 racial bonus to Listen checks."

Xykon may not have true seeing, mind, but that is by no means the only way to detect an invisible character. Nor is detecting the character necessary to neutralize the threat they pose - you can, for example, fill a room with enough fire to kill everything besides your fire-immune self.

Obviously, Xykon is not completely incapable, because he has a sufficient fig leaf of mitigation strategies that he is not absurdly stupid for choosing not to learn his lesson. That is, in fact, a facet of my point.

With a significant bit of luck added in, your "no such thing" allowed a sequence of events that resulted in both Durkon and V escaping. If only Xykon's "no such thing" sucked a bit less, that would be two less powerful characters to show up at the finale. That is likely to matter.

Applying Bardic (meta) Knowledge, at the end of the day, "no such thing" will probably help save the world. Which makes "no such thing" different from "Snails is a genius and 100% right here, as usual" in no way that matters.

[Snails]

Also, i'd note that Harry Potter, with one exception in the last book, unlike OOTS, is not a journey narrative. Most of the plot centers around Hogwarts, and excursions outside are rare, so Apportion is used to get to them. OOTS, on the other hand, is a story heavily centered around the travel from Gate to Gate, and the trouble our protagonists run into in the process. in most cases, and, thus, the protagonists having the ability to skip the travel time would drastically affect the plot. Not to mention, they literally centered a whole book around the main characters being unable to contact each other.

As a practical matter, if not for the travel adventuring, it could be a series of dungeon races, where the Order is trying to find the Gate before some opposing team.

But that gets old quickly, and has the significant downside to the author of not having organic reasons to show off his campaign world.

[Lord Torath]

Does the fact I can never spell restaraunt right on the first try say something about me then?Heh. Yeah, that's because it's restaurant, not restaraunt. You want to rant about the lack of rest you got at the restaurant. :smallamused:

[Kantaki]

With a significant bit of luck added in, your "no such thing" allowed a sequence of events that resulted in both Durkon and V escaping. If only Xykon's "no such thing" sucked a bit less, that would be two less powerful characters to show up at the finale. That is likely to matter.

Durkon?
I don't recall him being present for that sequence.
Do you mean O-Chul?
I mean, mixing them up is understandable- they do look almost the same after all.
Bald, bearded, wear armor, use a melee weapon...
Yup. Basically the same character.

Also, they didn't escape because X wasn't prepared for invisibility*.
If the Great Beast in Shadows hadn't surprised everyone with the „Escape”-trick V and O-Chul would literally have eaten his Meteor Swarm.

*Part of that was V being not sufficiently prepared though.

[Mightymosy]

"No one," you say?


It may very well be that teleportation would undermine much of the plot of The Order of the Stick. I believe Mr. Burlew has said as much (summon banana IX). But people have indeed taken that statement out of context, and possibly conflated it with Mr. Burlew's statements about true resurrection, to make the much more sweeping claim that it is a bad device for all stories in all places and times.

Actually, I will second this as well.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Teleportation downright ruins any story it is in completely, but it has a plot destroying power that needs to be looked at carefully.

In fact, HP is a good example of this as well. Of course, I read HP mainly with the heart, not with the brain. I don't think it is to be disected with pedantic thoughts, otherwise it would surely fall apart. Quickly.

As Kish said, all important places were immediately warded against Teleportation, just so that the story doesn't fall apart IMMEDIATELY.
HP experts may voice their opinion, but I remember thinking a couple times "Well, wouldn't it be better to Teleport now?" when I read the books.

For example, when they fly and use the Harry doppelgangers. Why don't they teleport again?
Also, why did no one build a room that is ONLY accessible by Teleport? Would be a good idea to hide something from curious eyes, wouldn't you think? Like, I don't know, a Horkrux, maybe?

My point is the following: If a society has access to Teleport-at-will, and you honestly try to follow that through, a lot of things would be really different.

Why have any mondane transportation left, at all?
For example, the Magic train station in London. Why risk having Muggles run through that wall by accident? When you can just have the teachers collect all the children with Teleport when semesters start?
Why ride on brooms you can fall down from?

I enjoyed HP. Really. And I'll admit that Rowling did an actual nice job patching the holes Teleportation magic tends to cause. But I wouldn't bet on it holding up logically in all cases (but again, not an HP expert).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Mightymosy, let me preface that I understand that you are not intending to criticise HP for its handling of the issue, that you see how it works, but you did ask questions about canon, and I can't not answer them.


For example, when they fly and use the Harry doppelgangers. Why don't they teleport again?
At the time, the MoM and Voldemort were not quite merged together. The safe places of the order where still being allowed and empowered by the MoM, and they needed to stay on the right side of the law. If Harry had aparated out of his uncle's house, he would have broken the law, which would have had immediate consequences (as it was, the MoM was taken not long after, but while not surprising, the Order was still working to delay and avoid it).

(One of Voldemort's Imperius'ed MoM employees had been the one to shut down magical transportation out of Harry's uncle's house, but at the time that was all Voldemort was able to do)


Also, why did no one build a room that is ONLY accessible by Teleport? Would be a good idea to hide something from curious eyes, wouldn't you think? Like, I don't know, a Horkrux, maybe?
I'm guessing you are thinking "they can't teleport into it if they haven't been there"? I mean, it makes logical sense, but unfortunately, there are plenty of examples of teleporting to a location you know of even if you haven't been there, and indeed the apparition test involves teleporting somewhere you haven't been based on the description of the examiner, IIRC. If Voldemort had used such a trick, all it would take is for Dumbledore to hear about it to be able to apparate into the place.

In general, security through obscurity is the weakest form of security anyway.


Why have any mondane transportation left, at all?
HP answers that by showing that apparition is limited by your abilities as a wizard, dangerous, less than confortable and cannot take the kids. It's the motorbike vs car debate, sort of.

(also, it takes significant amount of dark magic to make you fall from a broom - they are enchanted to keep you on, canonically, IIRC)

Grey Wolf

[Mightymosy]

Mightymosy, let me preface that I understand that you are not intending to criticise HP for its handling of the issue, that you see how it works, but you did ask questions about canon, and I can't not answer them.
Grey Wolf
You're welcome. Interesting details are always interesting.



At the time, the MoM and Voldemort were not quite merged together. The safe places of the order where still being allowed and empowered by the MoM, and they needed to stay on the right side of the law. If Harry had aparated out of his uncle's house, he would have broken the law, which would have had immediate consequences (as it was, the MoM was taken not long after, but while not surprising, the Order was still working to delay and avoid it).

(One of Voldemort's Imperius'ed MoM employees had been the one to shut down magical transportation out of Harry's uncle's house, but at the time that was all Voldemort was able to do)
Grey Wolf
MoM = Ministery of Magic, and not mother, I presume?

I am talking about the sequence where Harry's owl eventually gets murdered on flight.
The Phoenix Order people collect Harry and friends from some place, drink doppelganger juice (don't know the English name) and all fly with their brooms to some destination, in different groups. I think Hedwig and maybe some Order person is killed on that flight, if I remember correctly.

If you say that teleporting out of HP's uncle's house is forbidden, fine. Walk out, walk a mile, then teleport from a mile away or something.

Why risk going the whole distance on brooms? Maybe brooms take some dark magic to shoot people off from, but the Deatheaters DO pack some lots of dark magic!

Also, why not port away as soon as the Deatheaters fire at your squad?
Better TRY to port to safety than die, is my idea of life.



I'm guessing you are thinking "they can't teleport into it if they haven't been there"? I mean, it makes logical sense, but unfortunately, there are plenty of examples of teleporting to a location you know of even if you haven't been there, and indeed the apparition test involves teleporting somewhere you haven't been based on the description of the examiner, IIRC. If Voldemort had used such a trick, all it would take is for Dumbledore to hear about it to be able to apparate into the place.

In general, security through obscurity is the weakest form of security anyway.
Grey Wolf

1. I meant it as a safety against muggles first and foremost. Why have a train - any train, even magical - lead to Hogwarts when you can make it accessible through teleport ONLY, i.e. sealed under ground?
Or pocket dimension, place in the clouds, Atlantis redux, you name it...

2. Yes, secrecy alone is not a good measure to hide something, but why NOT use it?
Why is there an entrance to the horkrux cave? The one at the coast where DD eventually gets poisoned.
I mean, yes, DD could port there if he KNEW there was a room, but Vm could create some cave somewhere on earth, without entrance, and never tell anyone it even exists.
And he could STILL install all the other safety measures there.

YES, you could then tell a story where Wizards ALSO have magical ultrasound to find subterrain caves with, and et cetera et cetera, but that's what I was talking about: Having teleport-at-will opens up holes. Holes you have to carefully consider as an author if you want them available in your story.

Again, I don't fault Rowling. Teleport is a magic staple, it makes sense having it in your magic story (aimed primarily at kinds anyway who give more leeway to stuff like that, I think). And it's okay if you choose to pay the price that things aren't 100% logical in your story. What I am saying is that there IS a price.



HP answers that by showing that apparition is limited by your abilities as a wizard, dangerous, less than confortable and cannot take the kids. It's the motorbike vs car debate, sort of.
Grey Wolf

Really? I think I remember DD taking Harry with him 'porting, am I wrong?

Also, I remember people SAY it can be dangerous - but then again, they do it all the time anyway, so I think that argument is not carrying much weight in the books.

Teleporter accidents = 0.0
;-)





(also, it takes significant amount of dark magic to make you fall from a broom - they are enchanted to keep you on, canonically, IIRC)

Grey Wolf

Nice to know! I've always wondered, especially when watchin the Quidditch in the movies. Makes sense.

[georgie_leech]

2. Yes, secrecy alone is not a good measure to hide something, but why NOT use it?
Why is there an entrance to the horkrux cave? The one at the coast where DD eventually gets poisoned.
I mean, yes, DD could port there if he KNEW there was a room, but Vm could create some cave somewhere on earth, without entrance, and never tell anyone it even exists.
And he could STILL install all the other safety measures there.



IIRC, Voldy's horcruxes wouldn't do much good without people having some way of getting them and being possessed and whatnot. Hard to possess the back of Quirrel's head if Quirrel never shows up, you know? So Voldy needs to have his horcruxes in places where he can exert some influence on the world, or at least have ways of directing his followers to extract later.

[Fyraltari]

Also, I remember people SAY it can be dangerous - but then again, they do it all the time anyway, so I think that argument is not carrying much weight in the books.

Teleporter accidents = 0.0

I think I remeber a student losing a leg when learning to apparate. They put it back on, though.

[Mightymosy]

IIRC, Voldy's horcruxes wouldn't do much good without people having some way of getting them and being possessed and whatnot. Hard to possess the back of Quirrel's head if Quirrel never shows up, you know? So Voldy needs to have his horcruxes in places where he can exert some influence on the world, or at least have ways of directing his followers to extract later.

Really? I thought he can spawn from it, like Xykon from his phylactery.

The cave at the coast isn't very good for attracting people to be possessed, is it?

The story suggests that it IS meant as a good HIDING place for the Horkrux, if I remember correctly.
If so, why not hide it REALLY well, in an inaccessible cave?

[Fyraltari]

Really? I thought he can spawn from it, like Xykon from his phylactery.
No, he needs a complex ritual for that. I'm not really sure how he got into contact with Quirrel and Wormtongue though.

If so, why not hide it REALLY well, in an inaccessible cave?

The cave was the first place he ever used dark magic (possibly any magic), it was important to him.

[Mightymosy]

Oh look, another reason to 'port into an inaccesible room: Practice forbidden dark magic without anyone looking!

I think especially evil elitist people like Malfoy's and company, would likely build mansions without doors, so that muggles and other people unworthy of real magic can't disturb them.

While we are at Malfoy's, what about the house elves? They can epic-port anyhwere they want, right? And no one really cares until HP and friends use that to their advantage? Reaaaallly? Ehem.


How about rooms for adults only (hint, school, hint). Just build rooms without doors so kids can't 'port into, but adults can. Wouldn't that make sense?

Oooh, and what about treasure chambers?? How come those have doors at Gringott's?
I would pay extra if mine didn't have a door, but maybe that's just me.:smallsmile:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

MoM = Ministery of Magic, and not mother, I presume?
Yes.


I am talking about the sequence where Harry's owl eventually gets murdered on flight.
Yes, so am I. By that point, all forms of magical transport in and out of Harry's house were blocked/forbidden "for his protection" (unnecessarily so, but put in place by a Voldemort-controlled official)


Walk out, walk a mile, then teleport from a mile away or something.
... Or better, take a broom, which is much faster?


Why risk going the whole distance on brooms?

Because if you try to teleport into a secure location from an open one someone catches up and grabs on to you, you take them in, and that breaks the protection (as indeed, it happens later on to Team Harry).


2. Yes, secrecy alone is not a good measure to hide something, but why NOT use it?
When you die, you go to one of your horcruxes. If it is in a room with no exits, you're stuck there - you can't teleport without a wand, and you can't hold a wand in "meaner than a ghost" mode. Not my idea of how to spend eternity, to be honest.


Really? I think I remember DD taking Harry with him 'porting, am I wrong?
Yes, but "what Dumbledore can do easily" and "what the average wizard can do" are miles apart.


Also, I remember people SAY it can be dangerous - but then again, they do it all the time anyway, so I think that argument is not carrying much weight in the books.
Ron almost dies due to a botched side-along apparition in book 7.


Teleporter accidents = 0.0
Actually, teleport accidents in the books (or told of) is something like 5 or 6, including Ron's above and the girl that lost a leg (or the guy that split himself in half), but also minor things like losing an eyebrow or a fingernail.

Grey Wolf

[Reboot]

Oooh, and what about treasure chambers?? How come those have doors at Gringott's?
I would pay extra if mine didn't have a door, but maybe that's just me.:smallsmile:

I would be inclined to think the reverse - dimensional anchor the heck outta the vault with every anti-teleport (and anti-intangibility. And anti-Bag of Holding) spell going and have a well-defined, defensible means of physical-only access.

[goodpeople25]

The security through secrecy thing in regards to horucruxes was brought up in the books in regards to what objects were used as horucruxes. Been a long time since I last read the books but suffice to say I believe the practicality train left platform 9&3/4 a long time ago.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The security through secrecy thing in regards to horucruxes was brought up in the books in regards to what objects were used as horucruxes. Been a long time since I last read the books but suffice to say I believe the practicality train left platform 9&3/4 a long time ago.

It was only discussed with reference to Voldemort, who was too damn arrogant to use anything other than trophies, including 1000 year old items.

That said, the book establishes that a horcrux's presence can be felt, and that magic leaves traces, so I suspect the "pick a pebble and put it in a beach" approach would be like trying to hide a radioactive needle in a haystack.

Grey Wolf

[Mightymosy]

Yes.


Yes, so am I. By that point, all forms of magical transport in and out of Harry's house were blocked/forbidden "for his protection" (unnecessarily so, but put in place by a Voldemort-controlled official)


... Or better, take a broom, which is much faster?



Because if you try to teleport into a secure location from an open one someone catches up and grabs on to you, you take them in, and that breaks the protection (as indeed, it happens later on to Team Harry).Grey Wolf

Ride the broom JUST outside the "non-teleport-zone", teleport JUST outside the destination's "non-teleport-zone"?

Or, as I said, at least teleport away when under immediate attack.

Might have saved Hedwig's life, but maybe I am too sentimental to pets, I don't know.




When you die, you go to one of your horcruxes. If it is in a room with no exits, you're stuck there - you can't teleport without a wand, and you can't hold a wand in "meaner than a ghost" mode. Not my idea of how to spend eternity, to be honest.Grey Wolf

Leave a portkey in the hidden cave without doors?


Also, that still leaves things like treasure chambers.
Or rooms for forbidden rituals and the likes. Heck, even bed chambers, for less-than-forbidden-stuff adventures :smallwink:




Yes, but "what Dumbledore can do easily" and "what the average wizard can do" are miles apart.Grey Wolf

So is DD the only Wizard who can take people with him when teleporting? I don't remember - I thought Ron's elder brothers also take Harry with them, but I might misremember, and they only tell him to try it himself or something.



Ron almost dies due to a botched side-along apparition in book 7.


Actually, teleport accidents in the books (or told of) is something like 5 or 6, including Ron's above and the girl that lost a leg (or the guy that split himself in half), but also minor things like losing an eyebrow or a fingernail.

Grey Wolf

Good to know. Still people teleport all the time. Because losing limbs is appearantly not much of a concern, given the dangerous stuff they let school children do (What was that curse the Halfblood-Prince used to be fond of? Sectum sempra? Yikes! In a kids' school!)

[Fyraltari]

What was that curse the Halfblood-Prince used to be fond of? Sectum sempra? Yikes! In a kids' school!

That was utterly illegal. Snape came up with it (or found about it somehow) and wrote it in his book, it was never supposed to be anywhere near students.

EDIT: You know, unlike the rape-drug.

[Mightymosy]

What rape-drug?

Didn't one of the protagonists use the highly-illegal Sectum Sempra and get away with it regardless?

[Fyraltari]

What rape-drug?
Love potions. They sell that stuff to children.


Didn't one of the protagonists use the highly-illegal Sectum Sempra and get away with it regardless?
The guy who invented that spell covered his ass, didn't he? That incident was never reported through the proper channels.

[Peelee]

Love potions. They sell that stuff to children.

And have entire sub-plots on how effective they are.

[Mightymosy]

Love potions. They sell that stuff to children.


The guy who invented that spell covered his ass, didn't he? That incident was never reported through the proper channels.

1. Ah, Love potions, I see. For some reason I thought you had written rape drug :smalltongue:

So, we agree shady stuff going on in Hogwarts regarding child safety? :smallwink:

2. I don't know. I only remember it being used (in a toilet duel, wasn't it?), and someone finding and healing the victim (wasn't it Draco? Now I think it must have been Harry attacking Draco).

[Fyraltari]

1. Ah, Love potions, I see. For some reason I thought you had written rape drug :smalltongue:
You're right, rape-drugs don't deserve to be equated with something as vile as love potions.
They sell rape-brainwashers to kids.


So, we agree shady stuff going on in Hogwarts regarding child safety? :smallwink:
Oh yes, most definitely. This place should barely have any kid survive seven years.


2. I don't know. I only remember it being used (in a toilet duel, wasn't it?), and someone finding and healing the victim (wasn't it Draco? Now I think it must have been Harry attacking Draco).
That's about right, the person who healed Draco however was Snape, who recognized his spell
and understood how Harry could know it but decided to cover the whole thing up. After all he couldn't do his part if he was sent to Azkaban for practicing the Dark Arts.

[Mightymosy]

Love potions are also a fantasy staple, so I don't exactly blame Rowling for using them, just as I don't really blame her for using Teleportation magic.

I don't remember who used love potions on whom, though......was it handled well?
Probably not, because I DO slightly remember a forum discussion about how badly it was handled, I think even in this forum :-)



I even had one question back to the topic:

I do agree that Contigency sounds like a neat spell.
But without Teleport, I don't really see a usage that is sooo OP that V would be silly not using it.

With Teleport, I basically would never leave Home without Contingency->Teleport Home, like Tarquin's wizard ally did.

But V doesn't have Teleport.


So, with the spells I have seen V use, I actually have trouble imagining a super use even if V does have Contingency...

Does someone want to enlighten me with their enhanced D&D strats on how V could rule the campaign if they used Contingency together with their spell list?
I like to read that stuff, even though I don't play the game :smallsmile:

[Fyraltari]

Love potions are also a fantasy staple, so I don't exactly blame Rowling for using them, just as I don't really blame her for using Teleportation magic.
That's completely different. Teleportation does not carry moral issues.


I don't remember who used love potions on whom, though......was it handled well?
Probably not, because I DO slightly remember a forum discussion about how badly it was handled, I think even in this forum :-)
A girl (Lavender Brown?) gave Harry chocolates laced with the stuf but Ron ended up eating them instead. Also Voldemort's mom used it to get his father to live with her. Once she was pegnant she stopped feeding him that filfth either because she had deluded herself into thinking his love was genuine or because she thought he'd stay for the baby. as soon as he got his free-will back he high-tailed it out of there.

I have to give Rowling's credit that that subplot means this whole "rape angle" was probably intentional on her part.

Magic that take away somebody's freedom is wrong, simple as. Why should love potions get a pass when Imperio doesn't?

[Mightymosy]

It shouldn't, and I don't put it morally on the same page as Teleportation magic. I think it is understandable Rowling wants to use them, though. Of course there is a difference on how you can and should use either in a story.

So she basically showed how awful love potions are when taken seriously, with Voldemort's mom as an example?

[eilandesq]

This has been a fascinating discussion, but after a decade and a half of noting V.'s spell choice philosophy, it's pretty obvious that the reason that V. has never bothered to obtain Contingency--even with temporary access to the entire spell library of Azure City--was that it would take up a perfectly good sixth level spell slot (specialty or regular) that could be used to rack Chain Lightning, Freezing Sphere, Forceful Hand, or Disintegrate.

#mysterysolved

[GrayGriffin]

Oh look, another reason to 'port into an inaccesible room: Practice forbidden dark magic without anyone looking!

I think especially evil elitist people like Malfoy's and company, would likely build mansions without doors, so that muggles and other people unworthy of real magic can't disturb them.

While we are at Malfoy's, what about the house elves? They can epic-port anyhwere they want, right? And no one really cares until HP and friends use that to their advantage? Reaaaallly? Ehem.


How about rooms for adults only (hint, school, hint). Just build rooms without doors so kids can't 'port into, but adults can. Wouldn't that make sense?

Oooh, and what about treasure chambers?? How come those have doors at Gringott's?
I would pay extra if mine didn't have a door, but maybe that's just me.:smallsmile:
I'm pretty sure the house elf thing is precisely because no one cares to think about them. Their magical abilities are literally attributed to whatever wizards are in the same place at the time.

[Quebbster]

A girl (Lavender Brown?) gave Harry chocolates laced with the stuf but Ron ended up eating them instead.
Not that it really matters, but it was Romilda Vane. Ron was dating Lavender at the time, that's why Harry got confused when he suddenly got obsessed with Romilda.

[Prinygod]

This has been a fascinating discussion, but after a decade and a half of noting V.'s spell choice philosophy, it's pretty obvious that the reason that V. has never bothered to obtain Contingency--even with temporary access to the entire spell library of Azure City--was that it would take up a perfectly good sixth level spell slot (specialty or regular) that could be used to rack Chain Lightning, Freezing Sphere, Forceful Hand, or Disintegrate.

#mysterysolved

It only requires a spell slot once in every (caster level)(days). So long as you do not see combat on the day you have to recast contingency you gain extra combat potential. If you are in a position where you might see combat you are able to choose not to prepare contingency, and you would be no worse off if you don't not have the spell at all. In exchange you will gain in effect an extra 1-6th level spell, on the other days.

[Prinygod]

Love potions are also a fantasy staple, so I don't exactly blame Rowling for using them, just as I don't really blame her for using Teleportation magic.

I don't remember who used love potions on whom, though......was it handled well?
Probably not, because I DO slightly remember a forum discussion about how badly it was handled, I think even in this forum :-)



I even had one question back to the topic:

I do agree that Contigency sounds like a neat spell.
But without Teleport, I don't really see a usage that is sooo OP that V would be silly not using it.

With Teleport, I basically would never leave Home without Contingency->Teleport Home, like Tarquin's wizard ally did.

But V doesn't have Teleport.


So, with the spells I have seen V use, I actually have trouble imagining a super use even if V does have Contingency...

Does someone want to enlighten me with their enhanced D&D strats on how V could rule the campaign if they used Contingency together with their spell list?
I like to read that stuff, even though I don't play the game :smallsmile:

It opens up the spell list that is often too niche to prepat normally. Like contingency detect scrying. When Z scryed on the party, not only would v know they were scryed on but with a caster level check they would be on the look out for an ambush after all "If you at least match the scrier’s result, you get a visual image of the scrier and an accurate sense of his or her direction and distance from you. "

Of course v could still cast detect scrying, but they would have to use a 4th level slot every day.

Another idea is Mnemonic Enhancer. Normally a worthless spell, trading a 4th level and 10 minute casting time for a 3rd level spell. With contingency and one word you can regain a 3rd or lower spell slot, say gain an extra casting of fire ball or invisibility.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe the incident with the kobolds, in On the Origin of PCs, made V wary of automatic actions?

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure the house elf thing is precisely because no one cares to think about them. Their magical abilities are literally attributed to whatever wizards are in the same place at the time.
Indeed. This is another case of Mightymosy ignoring a key series theme--in this case, that the villains are characterized by their complete disregard for anything but human wizards and witches--because he's looking for optimization.

[Marcotix]

My explanation? V was too arrogant to have the spell before the soul splice. Now he/she has it, but due to alimony payments, can't spare the 1500 gp carved elephant ivory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) statuette.

Or he/ she finds the ivory trade distasteful.

[Mightymosy]

Indeed. This is another case of Mightymosy ignoring a key series theme--in this case, that the villains are characterized by their complete disregard for anything but human wizards and witches--because he's looking for optimization.

Yet another? OMG what beast am I??

Now now, I don't usually look too hard into optimisation, really. But having a subordinate who can teleport whenever he wishes and wherever he wishes is a safety concern I think most people would have, even if they consider said subordinates merely stupid slaves who are not important.
To each their own. At least I am important enough to get the condescending Kish treatment. I might feel humiliated, but then again I feel special being adressed in such a personal tone.

[Fyraltari]

Yet another? OMG what beast am I??

Now now, I don't usually look too hard into optimisation, really. But having a subordinate who can teleport whenever he wishes and wherever he wishes is a safety concern I think most people would have, even if they consider said subordinates merely stupid slaves who are not important.
To each their own. At least I am important enough to get the condescending Kish treatment. I might feel humiliated, but then again I feel special being adressed in such a personal tone.

I'm pretty sure anime fans have a word for that kind of behaviour, most likely ending in dere.

[Mightymosy]

Sorry, this reference I don't get.

[Fyraltari]

Sorry, this reference I don't get.

It's not a reference to something in particular, just an educated guess.

[Kish]

I'm sure it's not that Mightymosy likes me or anything. (Baka.)

Actually, upon further reflection, "optimization" is probably not the right word. I mean ignoring all revealed information about personality to instead focus on mechanics. It's a good way for every conflict-based story I would consider worthwhile to leave you going "but I don't understand, the villain wasn't properly outpowered but only lost because of some stupid personality thing, why are other people acting like this is a feature rather than a bug!"

[Lacuna Caster]

The notion of Kish-tsundere for some reason makes me deeply uncomfortable.

[Peelee]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/992/401/e37.png

[Fyraltari]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/992/401/e37.png

Basically there are a lot of japanese words for the different ways somebody (doesn't) show their infatuation toward someone. These terms are often used by non-japanese speaking anime fans to discuss characters since their native tongues don't have equivalents. The most well-known is the tsundere (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere), who hides their feeling behind a layer of contempt and anger at the loved one. Mosy stating Kish humiliating him personally makes him feel important reminded me of the kind of obsessive behaviour some anime characters can show, hence my speculating that there's probably a word for that.

There, frog cut and ready to be served.

Oh, and the first sentence in Kish's last post is a meme (see under the picture on the page I linked to).

[Mightymosy]

i'm with Peelee on this one

[GrayGriffin]

Yet another? OMG what beast am I??

Now now, I don't usually look too hard into optimisation, really. But having a subordinate who can teleport whenever he wishes and wherever he wishes is a safety concern I think most people would have, even if they consider said subordinates merely stupid slaves who are not important.
To each their own. At least I am important enough to get the condescending Kish treatment. I might feel humiliated, but then again I feel special being adressed in such a personal tone.

Why would you care what a dumb slave does in his spare time? Obviously they're not smart enough to actually serve as a threat to you. Their powers are obviously all for your own convenience.

[Mightymosy]

If said slave had the capability to teleport into your treasure vault, your weapon arsenal and your wife's/husband's bed chamber, you WOULD care, would be my assumption.

[Goblin_Priest]

Why would you care what a dumb slave does in his spare time? Obviously they're not smart enough to actually serve as a threat to you. Their powers are obviously all for your own convenience.

Well, if we look at history...

[Roderick_BR]

Priding oneself for being prepared is a much different thing from making preparations.

Arrogance has long been one of Vaarsuvius's core character traits, recent developments notwithstanding.
^^^This.
He(she/it/attackcopter/whatever) just didn't think about it. It's not out of character to not think about every single bit of planning all the time (except for Batman). V's not optimized at all, that's not how they've been treating their arcane studies.

Why would it be out of character to not get one spell, even if a very good one?
V usually focus on the more flashy spells. Not getting the most number-intensive ones would be out of character for them.

[Aveline]

I'm glad you agree, but please, using the words "it" and "attack copter" to demean a nonbinary gender is very hurtful.

[Fish]

Easy.

1. If Rich shows the casting of Contigency its effect is not a surprise.
2. If Rich doesn’t show the casting of Contingency, then people will cry “deus ex machina.”

[Lvl45DM!]

Almost any in-character failure can be summarized thusly

They didnt think to/want to.


I'm glad you agree, but please, using the words "it" and "attack copter" to demean a nonbinary gender is very hurtful.

Not to mention literally dehumanizing. :smallmad:

[Prinygod]

Almost any in-character failure can be summarized thusly

They didnt think to/want to.



Not to mention literally dehumanizing. :smallmad:

Don't you mean de-elvenizing? :)

[5crownik007]

Forgetting to do something is lazy writing, especially for such a useful spell.
However, Roderick makes the point that V might not want the spell, which is very different from forgetting to do something. If V believes they don't need the spell, with the reasoning being something along the lines of, 'Why would I need this? If I'm in a situation where i need [x] spell, I can just cast it'.
Faulty logic, but V has made regrettable decisions in the past, e.g. familicide.

I haven't seen anyone mention Material Components or the Focus, probably because I'm fairly certain no one cares about Material Components for spells. Plus it's likely that V has such items anyway. Still, something to consider. Possibly lacking in the requisite stuff to cast it.


Not to mention literally dehumanizing. :smallmad:
Let's not go there. Not a V gender thread, not a get mad thread either.

[Morty]

Being a useful spell to cast in a game of D&D and being a useful spell to depict being cast in a comic strip using a framework of D&D rules are two very different things. And I feel like it should be obvious by now that OotS is the latter and not the former.

[snowblizz]

I haven't seen anyone mention Material Components or the Focus, probably because I'm fairly certain no one cares about Material Components for spells. Plus it's likely that V has such items anyway. Still, something to consider. Possibly lacking in the requisite stuff to cast it.

When it's funny.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0220.html


Or when it's dramatic. (All the times they need diamonds or diamond dust to cast spells, ie Durkon's raisings for example).

[Goblin_Priest]

Forgetting to do something is lazy writing, especially for such a useful spell.
However, Roderick makes the point that V might not want the spell, which is very different from forgetting to do something. If V believes they don't need the spell, with the reasoning being something along the lines of, 'Why would I need this? If I'm in a situation where i need [x] spell, I can just cast it'.
Faulty logic, but V has made regrettable decisions in the past, e.g. familicide.

I haven't seen anyone mention Material Components or the Focus, probably because I'm fairly certain no one cares about Material Components for spells. Plus it's likely that V has such items anyway. Still, something to consider. Possibly lacking in the requisite stuff to cast it.

Aktchually...


Sure, you can cheese out Contingency, that's really just more reasons not to give it to your protagonists in the story.

If you want a headcanon explanation, just tell yourself that "spell-using creature's eyelashes" are hard for V to come by. It's also kinda creepy.

[Darth Paul]

If you want a headcanon explanation, just tell yourself that "spell-using creature's eyelashes" are hard for V to come by. It's also kinda creepy.

Well.... couldn't V just use their own? :smallconfused:

[NoHaxJustPi]

That would be annoying, painful, and limited-use. Also kinda weird

[Faramir]

You can only have one contingency running at a time, and only specific events trigger it. Could be V has been running contingency off-panel for half the comic, but s/he's terrible at guessing what the right event should be.
Contingency->sending might come up next time V gets yanked to Hell, just to give Roy a heads up. That'd be the more dramatically useful way to use the spell, imo, rather than a glorified 'run away!' button.

I like the idea that V has had contingency for a long time and we just haven't noticed.

Perhaps previously he had:
Cast Silence whenever Elan talks for more than 2 minutes running.

Now that he's more self aware:
Cast sending "Wrap it up Varsuvius" whenever I talk for more than 30 minutes running.

[CriticalFailure]

You can only have one contingency running at a time, and only specific events trigger it. Could be V has been running contingency off-panel for half the comic, but s/he's terrible at guessing what the right event should be.
Contingency->sending might come up next time V gets yanked to Hell, just to give Roy a heads up. That'd be the more dramatically useful way to use the spell, imo, rather than a glorified 'run away!' button.

That would make so much sense.

[Morty]

It's probably worth remembering that the one time Contingency was actually used in the comic, it was to the detriment of the caster's side of the fight.

[Mightymosy]

Yes, but it was very good for the caster himself.

[georgie_leech]

Yes, but it was very good for the caster himself.

Old V believed they could handle everything personally with no difficulties; New V is trying to be a team player.

[Mightymosy]

Dead wizard is not good team wizard either.

[Goblin_Priest]

It's probably worth remembering that the one time Contingency was actually used in the comic, it was to the detriment of the caster's side of the fight.

As Mightymosy said, he wouldn't have been much more useful dead.

[zimmerwald1915]

As Mightymosy said, he wouldn't have been much more useful dead.
I dunno, Malack was mighty useful dead.

[snowblizz]

I dunno, Malack was mighty useful dead.

Ah! But Malck wasn't a wizard! :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

Ah! But Malck wasn't a wizard! :smallbiggrin:

Thats because he wasn't hairy.

[Goblin_Priest]

I dunno, Malack was mighty useful dead.

Dunno, that pile of dust didn't really help the Vector Legion achieve much. ;)

[Peelee]

Dunno, that pile of dust didn't really help the Vector Legion achieve much. ;)

That's destroyed, not dead.

[Fyraltari]

Dunno, that pile of dust didn't really help the Vector Legion achieve much. ;)

It got them to kill Nale.

[georgie_leech]

It got them to kill Nale.

Getting his decisions out of command is probably the best thing for them.

[ijuinkun]

Dunno, that pile of dust didn't really help the Vector Legion achieve much. ;)

"Dead" as in "undead"--Malack was dead for two hundred years before the OOTS even met him. Therefore, just about everything he did onscreen was done while he was dead.

[zimmerwald1915]

"Dead" as in "undead"--Malack was dead for two hundred years before the OOTS even met him. Therefore, just about everything he did onscreen was done while he was dead.
Do you like cutting frogs apart? Does it give you some kind of pleasure? Is it of the visceral or erotic kind?

[Peelee]

Do you like cutting frogs apart? Does it give you some kind of pleasure? Is it of the visceral or erotic kind?

I still appreciated it. The dead snake, not the dead frog.

[ijuinkun]

Do you like cutting frogs apart? Does it give you some kind of pleasure? Is it of the visceral or erotic kind?

This is an internet forum whose main theme is critiquing a webcomic. We dissect everything here as a matter of course.

[snowblizz]

"Dead" as in "undead"--Malack was dead for two hundred years before the OOTS even met him. Therefore, just about everything he did onscreen was done while he was dead.

Since the scalpels are out. Malack wasn't dead hundreds of years before. Malack has never been alive at all. Malack is a negative energyspirit created by Nergal. The unnamed shaman whose mortal coil Malack used has not been controlled by the original soul for 200 years however.


So insofar a negative energy spirit manifesting on the prime material plane can be said to be "alive" Malack was in fact "alive" for most of the screen time. In a manner of speaking.

[Peelee]

So insofar a negative energy spirit manifesting on the prime material plane can be said to be "alive"

Which is to say, not at all. :smalltongue:

[magic9mushroom]

I don't see what's so controversial about "V never had the opportunity to get the spell into his spellbook". One of the few disadvantages specific to being a Wizard (as opposed to a Cleric or Sorcerer) is that you have almost no control over what spells you even have the opportunity to learn. Clerics have them all (as long as they don't cheese off their deity too much) and Sorcerer's just pick what they know from the whole list (but are confined to those choices thereafter). But apart from a few from leveling up, Wizards are at the mercy of what the world gives them the opportunity to learn. And I guess there were spells that V (wisely or not) deemed to be higher up on the must-have list to spend the few "learn from leveling" opportunities on.

Since nobody else has pointed it out...

Wizards get more spells from levelling up than sorcerers get Spells Known. It's 41+(Int modifier at level 1) vs. 34. Not counting cantrips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) (which, for the record, are 19 for the wizard and 9 for the sorcerer).

So, uh, yeah. A wizard has more chosen spells than a sorcerer (and can get a lot more with certain feats and ACFs). They just also can buy a heap of other spells subject to availability. It's entirely fair to say it's a worse deal than cleric (and a lot of people forget about this when they say archivist's better than cleric)... but wizards are still strictly better than sorcerers here.

[Resileaf]

A wizard still is limited by how many spells they can fit in their spellbook (or if they have multiple spellbooks, how many they can carry at a time).

[Prinygod]

A wizard still is limited by how many spells they can fit in their spellbook (or if they have multiple spellbooks, how many they can carry at a time).

Lol

Wizard "I want to learn wish, but where the heck am I suppose to get 17 gp to buy a spell book and a back pack? Free my ass I'll stick with magic missile!"

[CriticalFailure]

When you want to learn wish but then you remember you dumped str and another spellbook will put you over your encumbrance limit

[zimmerwald1915]

When you want to learn wish but then you remember you dumped str and another spellbook will put you over your encumbrance limit
When you remember that wish can be used to gain inherent bonuses to ability scores, including Strength.

[Reboot]

When you want to learn wish but then you remember you dumped str and another spellbook will put you over your encumbrance limit

When you remember you have to be 17th level to learn wish, and by that point a bag of holding is chump change.

[Aeson]

When you remember you have to be 17th level to learn wish, and by that point a bag of holding is chump change.
Have you accounted for the gold that the wizard has to expend on Spell Booster Packs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) to expand his, her, or its library of spells, though?

[Goblin_Priest]

That's destroyed, not dead.

Re-dead, I'd say.

[Squire Doodad]

Re-dead, I'd say.

"...he's still dead, just not, you know, DEAD-dead." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html)