Can you Magic Jar into a Clone?

[Damon_Tor]

Okay, so here's the setup: a barbarian king has conquered 1/4 of the world and he's absurdly competent, a level 20 barbarian, and he's got a perfect 24/20/24 in physical stats. But he's reaching the end of his natural life, and looking for immortality, has reached out to my wizard for help.

My wizard agrees to set up an array of clones for him on one condition: I get a clone for myself to use as my own body. He agrees.

So is there any reason my wizard can't use Magic Jar to transfer his soul into the clone?

Seems like a victimless way to get what I want. It's obviously evil to kidnap some dude, chain him up, and try to steal his body every 24 hours, but making a deal with him for access to his stats seems like a win/win.


All the other problems with Magic Jar

Yes, yes I've considered this. My real body will be kept on my person at all time, sealed in a "minimus containment" Imprisonment spell to prevent accidental death via anti-magic shenanigans. The imprisonment is set to end if my soul returns to my body, so even if someone gets a dispel magic through to me all that happens is the cloned body flops catatonic to the floor and my real body is standing there, still a level 20 wizard.

[DrKerosene]

I feel like the part about a Clone being inert means it counts as an object and not a valid humanoid target for Magic Jar.

Edit: Can you still do that thing where you Astral Project out from a Demiplane in a timeless plane, back into the Prime in 5e?

[Galithar]

I see no reason why not.

An inert clone is still a 'living' humanoid. It just lacks a soul. Therefore I would argue that it has no means of resisting the Magic Jar spell.

I personally would say that the Barbarian capstone that gives him 24/20/24 is a class feature that you wouldn't benefit from. That would still give you 20/20/20 in your physical stats though as well as hit die of a level 20 barbarian (I would give you whatever the NPC has for HP -40 to account for lost Con). If their health was set accurately based on class levels. Otherwise I'd probably have you use whatever method the game had used for health gain for all 20 levels the Barbarian had. So either 19d12+(12 for level 1)+(100 for Con mod) or the same but replace 19d12 with the average gain per level (7 I believe?)

Edit: all is opinion, not claiming RAW anywhere.

[Great Dragon]

One thing that I can see the DM doing - is that you get the 20/20/20 Physical Stats, plus whatever Mental Stats you already have - but, you only get Wizard 1d6 HD + 5 Con per level.

Everything else is based on your Wizard Class - Proficiency with Saves, Skills, etc.
Plus the Wizard's original Background for bonus Skills/Tools/Languages.

This is what I would most likely do when DM-ing something like this.

Also not claiming RAW.

[Galithar]

One thing that I can see the DM doing - is that you get the 20/20/20 Physical Stats, plus whatever Mental Stats you already have - but, you only get Wizard 1d6 HD + 5 Con per level.

Everything else is based on your Wizard Class - Proficiency with Saves, Skills, etc.
Plus the Wizard's original Background for bonus Skills/Tools/Languages.

This is what I would most likely do when DM-ing something like this.

Also not claiming RAW.

Why would say they get the physical stats, but not the HP of the Barbarian? I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious about your reasoning.

[Great Dragon]

Why would say they get the physical stats, but not the HP of the Barbarian? I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious about your reasoning.

Mainly because while the body is a physical duplicate, the Barbarian gains HD and all other features from his Class Levels.

I could also see someone cursing the Barbarian to be inside the Wizard's Body, and get stuck with an 8 Str, 14 Dex and 12 Con, but still get 1d12 + 1 Con hp/Lv.

[Galithar]

Mainly because while the body is a physical duplicate, the Barbarian gains HD and all other features from his Class Levels.

I could also see someone cursing the Barbarian to be inside the Wizard's Body, and get stuck with an 8 Str, 14 Dex and 12 Con, but still get 1d12 + 1 Con hp/Lv.

Good points. Probably more accurate to RAW that way. I wasn't thinking of HP as a class feature, but it most certainly is.

I amend my answer to have your Wizard keep the d6 hit die lol

[Great Dragon]

Good points. I amend my answer to have your Wizard keep the d6 hit die lol

:cool:

But then, I'm also the kind of DM that will give the Wizard-in-Barbarian Body (and reverse) a Mental Quirk/Flaw.

Maybe the Wizard has trouble keeping his temper, especially in Social situations (like with Nobles and Royalty).
And the temptation to just Firebolt/Fireball annoying creatures is very strong.

Maybe the Barbarian gains a fascination with collecting magical items.

[Galithar]

:cool:

But then, I'm also the kind of DM that will give the Wizard-in-Barbarian Body (and reverse) a Mental Quirk/Flaw.

Maybe the Wizard has trouble keeping his temper, especially in Social situations (like with Nobles and Royalty).
And the temptation to just Firebolt/Fireball annoying creatures is very strong.

Maybe the Barbarian gains a fascination with collecting magical items.

See now I agree with you there too haha

Now that is obviously not RAW, but it adds a lot of flavor to the situation.

[JackPhoenix]

Mainly because while the body is a physical duplicate, the Barbarian gains HD and all other features from his Class Levels.

I could also see someone cursing the Barbarian to be inside the Wizard's Body, and get stuck with an 8 Str, 14 Dex and 12 Con, but still get 1d12 + 1 Con hp/Lv.

There's a thing with this line of reasoning: ASI are *also* class features, so by the same logic, you would get the physical stats of the barbarian from back when he was level 1.

[Great Dragon]

There's a thing with this line of reasoning: ASI are *also* class features, so by the same logic, you would get the physical stats of the barbarian from back when he was level 1.

This is an option for the DM - if they either already have those Original Stats handy, or don't mind subtracting the ASI from the 20s, but they should still allow the PC to spend their Class ASI (and everyone gets them at the same Class levels, IiRC - so only multi-classing PCs need worry) to increase abilities up to their maximum allowed level.

But I was going off the 'conditioned body' for the Original Barbarian Body - thus allowing the 20s to be available for physical stats; and the fact that the 'maxed' Original Wizard Body would most likely have those Physical Stats listed above, since the Wizard spent most of his ASI on Mental Stats, with maybe an ASI into Dex and another into Con.

So, yes, the cursed 20th level Barbarian could indeed spend all his ASI to increase either Str or Con.
Placing all ASI into Str would increase it to 18; and placing all ASI into Con would make that 22 - which is allowed with his Class Capstone ability.

Now, Mental Stats I could see remaining with the PC, regardless of Body - since these are very personal.

Now, I can see the DM limiting the W-B to either spending those ASI on Physical or Mental and being stuck with the Original Physical Stats of the Barbarian. Since the Wiz did not change his physical stats much, the B-W might not change any with his new Physical stats, then modified by his applied ASI.

[Galithar]

There's a thing with this line of reasoning: ASI are *also* class features, so by the same logic, you would get the physical stats of the barbarian from back when he was level 1.

You are assuming this Barbarian has ASIs. It's entirely possible for an NPC (even one with class levels) to be given their stats as "natural" and any ASI granted by the class be taken as feats. But as Great Dragon said that is entirely within the realm of reason for a DM to do, though only if they have a full workup on the character from level one and can show where each ASI went, in my opinion.

[Great Dragon]

I had indeed started with the thought that both Barbarian and Wizard were PCs.

How this would apply for the original Barbarian being an NPC is entirely up to the DM.

On a side note - a creative DM does not have a problem dealing with a Player that comes up with an unusual means to gain Stat Boosts. (This was actually a neat idea, and the fact that the PC has to keep track of - and protect - his Original body has Plot Hook written all over it!)

The real question is how the DM uses these against the Character.

The 8 Str Barbarian is an obvious solution.

But the 20 Str Wizard could have new problems with constantly crushing his spell components when his Spell Focus won't work - like any materials that have a monetary value, or the materials are consumed by the spell.
So, yeah - constantly crushing your 50 gp diamond for Chromatic Orb would be both expensive and annoying!

And yes, I'm aware that lots of people will argue that a diamond is 'indestructible'.
But, even IRL, they aren't - there are ways to break, shatter and crush diamonds.

We have problems imagining Stats above about 16. Even the best Athletes in the world rarely go above that, even in their Prime Focus. And anything 20+ is ..... awesome!

The Wiz could also find that social interactions are very hard, since he's both 'faster' due to Dex and has to worry about knocking people down with his Str. Since he's not used to being so strong that a 'light bump' can cause a person to fall.

Again - Not RAW. But strongly implied within the Rules.

[Chronos]

I don't think a Clone is alive until the original dies. It's an inert lump of matter. "Inert", if it means anything, includes "not living".

[Great Dragon]

CLONE
8th-level necromancy
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Components: V, 5, M (a diamond worth at least 1,000 gp and at least I cubic inch of flesh of the creature
that is to be cloned, which the spell consumes, and a vessel worth at least 2,000 gp that has a sealable lid
and is large enough to hold a Medium creature, such as a huge urn, coffin, mud-filled cyst in the ground, ar
crystal container filled with salt water)
Duration: Instantaneous
This spell grows an inert duplicate of a living creature as a safeguard against death. This clone forms inside a sealed vessel and grows to full size and maturity after 120 days; you can also choose to have the clone be a younger version of the same creature. lt remains inert and endures indefinitely, as long as its vessel remains undisturbed.
At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return. The clone is physically identical to the original and has the same personality, memories, and abilities, but none of the original's equipment. The original creature's physical remains, if they still exist, become inert and can't thereafter be restored to life, since the creature's soul is elsewhere.


MAGIC JAR
6th level necromancy
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Self
Components: V,S, M (a gem, crystal, reliquary, or some other ornamental container worth at least 500 gp)
Duration: Until dispelled
Your body falls into a catatonic state as your soul leaves it and enters the container you used for the spell's
material component. While your soul inhabits the container, you are aware of your surroundings as if you
were in the container's space. Vou can't move or use reactions. The only action you can take is to project your
soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoids body.
You can attempt to possess any humanoid within 100 feet of you that you can see (creatures warded by a
protection from evil and good or magic circle spell can't be possessed). The target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failure, your soul moves into the target's body, and the target's soul becomes trapped in the container. On a success, the target resists your efforts to possess it, and you can't attempt to possess it again for 24 hours. Once you possess a creature's body, you control it.
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature, though you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class features. If the target has any class levels, you can't use any of its class features.
Meanwhile, the possessed creature's soul can perceive from the container using its own senses, but it
can't move or take actions at all. While possessing a body, you can use your action to return from the host body to the container if it is within 100 feet of you, returning the host creature's soul to
its body. If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies, and you must make a Charisma saving
throw against your own spellcasting DC. On a success, you return to the container if it is within 100 feet of you. Otherwise, you die. If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die. If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet. Otherwise, that creature dies. When the spell ends, the container is destroyed.

Bold and Italic are my addition for emphasis.
The Bold indicates that the DM can go either way - 20/20/20 or Lv 1 Stats.
The Italic indicates that my Idea was right on the mark.
The Underline gives lots of conditions for the Wizard and Target Creature to suffer insta-death.

@Chronos
So, I suppose that if the DM wanted, upon the death of the Old Barbarian, all the clones that were not somehow shielded would 'wake up' - like Manshoon from the Forgotten Realms - and the Wizard would have to cast his Magic Jar spell afterwards, and the Target Clone would get a Charisma Save to resist for 24 hours.

Now, assuming the Wizard is as maxed out in Int as the Barbarian was in Str, he could have a 24 Int max. 20 normal Cap + 2 Tome of Thought increases to 22, and the lucky draw from the Deck of Many Things granting another +2, to a maximum of 24: 8 + 6 Proficiency + 7 Int = 21 Save DC.
So, for the 'new' Barbarian: no Proficiency in Charisma and a maximum of +5 (without Tome/DoMT\Wish), means a not much of a chance of success.

Now the New Barbarian Clone's soul that the Wizard possessed is still around, and able to see everything the Wizard does through it's body's senses from the Magic Jar. Which means that the DM can use various Extra-Planar Beings (From Celestials, to Fiends, to Gods) willing to grant 'him' freedom and/or Power so as to be able to exact "Revenge" on the Wizard.

Also, the other Clone (now possessed by the Old King's 'true soul') might fall to the Clone Curse, and hate the Wizard on sight, since all he sees is a Copy of himself, and "There can only be one"!!

Damon_Tor indicated his solution for the Magic Jar Problem.

IMPRISONMENT
9th-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 30 feel
Components: V, 5, M (a vellum depiction or a carved statuette in the likeness of the target, and a special component that varies according to the version of the spell you choose, worth at least 500 gp per Hit Die of the target)
Duration: Until dispelled
You create a magical restraint to hold a creature that you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be bound by the spell; if it succeeds, it is immune lo this spell if you cast it again.
While affected by this spell, the creature doesn't need to breathe, eat, or drink, and it doesn't age. Divination
spells can't locate or perceive the target. When you cast the spell, you choose one of the following forms of imprisonment.

Burial. The target is entombed far beneath the earth in a sphere of magical force that is just large enough to
contain the target. Nothing can pass through the sphere, nor can any creature teleport or use planar travel to get
into or out of it. The special component for this version of the spell is a small mithral orb.

Chaining. Heavy chains, firmly rooted in the ground, hold the target in place. The target is restrained until
the spell ends, and it can't move or be moved by any means until then.
The special component for this version of the spell is a fine chain of precious metal.

Hedged Prison. The spell transports the target into a tiny demiplane that is warded against teleportation and planar travel. The demiplane can be a labyrinth, a cage, a tower, or any similar confined structure or area of your choice. The special component for this version of the spell is a miniature representation of the prison made from jade.

Minimus Containment. The target shrinks to a height of 1 inch and is imprisoned inside a gemstone or similar

[Vorpalchicken]

I agree with the notion upthread that it is not a valid target, since it is an inert body and therefore an object. If I were to permit this though, this is how I'd rule it:

The wizard indeed gets the hp, stats and all the physical traits of the barbarian, as per the Magic Jar spell

You have a defense prepared versus Dispel Magic- and that would be a pretty big inconvenience but should work

An Anti-magic Field or a Beholder on the other hand could be lethal to you since none of your apparatus would function.

Also, not sure I would permit serial clones of the same creature to exist simultaneously, at least not with that spell. Maybe if you brought pizza.

[Great Dragon]

@Vorpalchicken
Since all the Anti-magic effect does is suppress other magic - not negates it like Dispel Magic - I could see the Wizard being killed while under the A-M effect would permanently cause his death. Since the Magic Jar is not available to allow him to escape.

[Chronos]

Now, assuming the Wizard is as maxed out in Int as the Barbarian was in Str, he could have a 24 Int max. 20 normal Cap + 2 Tome of Thought increases to 22, and the lucky draw from the Deck of Many Things granting another +2, to a maximum of 24:
No, the barbarian could likewise also have a manual and a lucky draw... but he doesn't. So the wizard who's as maxed out as the barbarian also wouldn't have those things, and so would only be at 20. And if we're talking about what the wizard could have (but probably doesn't), he could have five Tomes of Clear Thought for 30 Int, and the ioun stone that increases your proficiency bonus, and a Wand of the War Mage.

[Great Dragon]

<snip>.

Well, the DM has control over what Magical Items are available, and when.
Once used - each Manual/Tome then loses its magic, but regains it in a century.

True, these Books are only Very Rare items, worth up to 50,000 gp each.
So, there could be 5 of each type in the World, but getting even the first Book could be an Epic Quest - now x5 per book/stat type. And the max for everyone is 30, by whatever means.

(I'd also rule that Manuals/Tome/DoMT, etc transfer with the individual they were used for.)

The Ioun Stone and Wand might be available for a 20th level Wizard.
But then I'm sure that the Barbarian has a Legendary +3 Weapon at 20th level.
But, even High Tier PCs should have to spend some effort to get those Powerful/Legendary Items.

My main goal was to point out that magic items can be used to help a Person Solve an otherwise impossible Challenge - like Stats being over 20.

- I've already posted my position for the non-magically-modified Body-Swap.


Edit - got thread mixed up due to too many Tabs open at once. Sorry.

Thanks for the debate. It gave me something to think about for my Games.

[Sigreid]

I would say no because the clone doesn't have a soul to swap.

[Galithar]

I would say no because the clone doesn't have a soul to swap.

It is a "...duplicate of a living creature..."
It's lack of soul just means there is nothing there to resist your possession attempt. And consequently no soul in the jar after you possess it.

And because I know it will be the first argument, I snipped the word inert from my quote.

Inert - lacking the ability or strength to move.
Nothing about that makes me think that it somehow is not a creature because it can't move (due to having a soul presumably)

Now this is all subject to DM approval, not RAW. But "I don't like it, it seems like it would be too strong" would in my mind be a much better reason for a DM to not allow it then the 'reasons' given here.

[Sigreid]

It is a "...duplicate of a living creature..."
It's lack of soul just means there is nothing there to resist your possession attempt. And consequently no soul in the jar after you possess it.

And because I know it will be the first argument, I snipped the word inert from my quote.

Inert - lacking the ability or strength to move.
Nothing about that makes me think that it somehow is not a creature because it can't move (due to having a soul presumably)

Now this is all subject to DM approval, not RAW. But "I don't like it, it seems like it would be too strong" would in my mind be a much better reason for a DM to not allow it then the 'reasons' given here.

The way I currently interpret the spell, you have two swap with a currently inhabiting soul. Just my take on it.

[JackPhoenix]

@Vorpalchicken
Since all the Anti-magic effect does is suppress other magic - not negates it like Dispel Magic - I could see the Wizard being killed while under the A-M effect would permanently cause his death. Since the Magic Jar is not available to allow him to escape.

Suppressed magic may be enough. Magic Jar is the only reason the wizard can control the body, and it would be suppressed in AM field, so the now-soulless body would collapse and propably die on its own (as it is outside the container), leaving the wizard with nothing to return to after the antimagic effect ends. Arguably, as the magic that allows the wizard's soul to exist outside his proper body would be suppressed, the wizard would instantly die too if it's out of range of its original body.