Revenant Blade, is it balanced?

[Rukelnikov]

I sometimes see people saying this feat is "OP" and, while its clearly a superior option to TWF, I think its still below PAM.

*Value after slash is accounting for GWF Style.

Double Scimitar attacks deal 2d4(5/6), BA DS attack is 2d4(5/6), typical 2 att action + Baction deals 15/18

Glaive/Halberd deals 1d10(5.5/6.3), PAM BA attack 1d4(2.5/3), 2 att + ba is 13.5/15.6

Revenant Blade Pros/Cons:

1.5/2.4 extra damage
+1 AC
+1 Str/Dex
Elf Only


Glaive/Halberd Pros/Cons:

10 ft. reach
AoO on enemies entering reach


Consider a generic PAM Glaive/Halberd attack at lvl 6 deals 1d10+4 (9.5/10.3) this means as long as PAM gets us 1 extra attack from incoming enemies every 6/4 rounds its dealing even more damage, and will increase when factoring GWM and magical weapons, making PAM more damaging just by getting 1 extra AoO every 10 rounds. Also not being restricted to elves means we can start with an extra feat or with a +2 Str race.

Am I missing something that makes RB too good?

[AttilatheYeon]

Balanced? With a blade on both ends, probably the same size and weight, with i wide enough grip, i bet it is balanced. I'd really have to swing one around to be 100% tho 🤣

[Rukelnikov]

Balanced? With a blade on both ends, probably the same size and weight, with i wide enough grip, i bet it is balanced. I'd really have to swing one around to be 100% tho 🤣

Ahahahahaha should've seen that coming :smalltongue:

[GlenSmash!]

I don't have much problem with Revenant Blade. It's the Double Scimitar itself that bothers me.

[Foxhound438]

I don't have much problem with Revenant Blade. It's the Double Scimitar itself that bothers me.

isn't it something to the effect of your weapon has a built in bonus action attack that gets modifier to damage? I remember it being something like that, and if I'm right it's definitely at the peak of power creep. Yes, a revenant blade user has the same number of attacks as a PAM user, but skipping the feat you get the biggest benefit of PAM without a feat at all. That's where it's broken, not in the feat.

Correct me if I'm wrong on what the weapon does though, it's been a while since I've looked at it.

[GlenSmash!]

isn't it something to the effect of your weapon has a built in bonus action attack that gets modifier to damage? I remember it being something like that, and if I'm right it's definitely at the peak of power creep. Yes, a revenant blade user has the same number of attacks as a PAM user, but skipping the feat you get the biggest benefit of PAM without a feat at all. That's where it's broken, not in the feat.

Correct me if I'm wrong on what the weapon does though, it's been a while since I've looked at it.

Yup that's what I dislike about it. One, count it one, weapon gets a bonus action attack just by using it, while other bonus attacks all come from class abilities, feats, or spells.

Even if only featless paladins are using it for another crit-smite chance, or featless Barbarians for more rage damage it still irks me.

[jaappleton]

My issue is that it gives a stat boost. Otherwise, I think it’s fine.

I compare it to TWF and PAM. It enhances a BA Attack and gives +1 to AC. That itself should be fine.

But a stat boost on top of it? Starts to get a bit cheesy.

.......Now, as a PLAYER? Gimme that ****, I wanna wreck faces.

[Rukelnikov]

isn't it something to the effect of your weapon has a built in bonus action attack that gets modifier to damage? I remember it being something like that, and if I'm right it's definitely at the peak of power creep. Yes, a revenant blade user has the same number of attacks as a PAM user, but skipping the feat you get the biggest benefit of PAM without a feat at all. That's where it's broken, not in the feat.

Correct me if I'm wrong on what the weapon does though, it's been a while since I've looked at it.


Yup that's what I dislike about it. One, count it one, weapon gets a bonus action attack just by using it, while other bonus attacks all come from class abilities, feats, or spells.

Even if only featless paladins are using it for another crit-smite chance, or featless Barbarians for more rage damage it still irks me.


My issue is that it gives a stat boost. Otherwise, I think it’s fine.

I compare it to TWF and PAM. It enhances a BA Attack and gives +1 to AC. That itself should be fine.

But a stat boost on top of it? Starts to get a bit cheesy.

.......Now, as a PLAYER? Gimme that ****, I wanna wreck faces.

I understand that Double Scimitar is far and away the best option for dual weilding, but if even accounting that, it is still below PAM builds, why is DS frowned upon?

EDIT: Oh I get it now, what you are saying is, DS is better because it doesn't really need a feat to get that 1d4+Str BA attack? In that case, yeah... but its still below PAM builds, and every player I know plays with feats :S

[Snowbluff]

I'd like to kindly point out that the DS also lets you get that bonus action attack for free, and unlike TWF you have a hand free for casting spells, so you also don't need warcaster...

[Misterwhisper]

I understand that Double Scimitar is far and away the best option for dual weilding, but if even accounting that, it is still below PAM builds, why is DS frowned upon?

EDIT: Oh I get it now, what you are saying is, DS is better because it doesn't really need a feat to get that 1d4+Str BA attack? In that case, yeah... but its still below PAM builds, and every player I know plays with feats :S

For the price of 1 feat Pam gives you:

A bonus action 1d4 +str attack
And
A reaction attack when they close.

For 1 feat the double scimitar gives:

+ 1 stat
Makes the weapon finesse
A bonus action 2d4 + str or dex
+ 1 ac

For no feat at all it is a 2d4 weapon that comes with a free 1d4 bonus attack.

It made dual wielding the fighting style and dual wielder the feat useless all at the same time.

[Rukelnikov]

I'd like to kindly point out that the DS also lets you get that bonus action attack for free, and unlike TWF you have a hand free for casting spells, so you also don't need warcaster...

The free hand is interesting, hadn't considered that. However, that is comparing DS to TWF, which IMO is the wrong comparison, since TWF is the weakest combat style in the game, which I think DS/RB fixes, and that's why I compare it to PAM, one of the strongest styles.

[Foxhound438]

but its still below PAM builds, and every player I know plays with feats :S

I mean, sure by a tiny, tiny fraction, but now you also get another different feat as a Vuman. Something like sentinel to get your reaction attack, lucky to have better accuracy, inspiring leader on paladins to be tankier, and so on. Yes, the PAM build can get any of those too, but they're a full 4 levels slower to get their feats online. Alternatively, if you don't want the extra feat and you want to boost stats, both can have a bonus action attack at level 1 and max two stats by level 16, but the DBS guy gets to also have sentinel or whichever other one the entire time. It's blatantly better in that case.

[thoroughlyS]

Yes, a revenant blade user has the same number of attacks as a PAM user, but skipping the feat you get the biggest benefit of PAM without a feat at all.
From a different perspective, it does basically the same thing as two-weapon fighting. Don't get me wrong, it has a nice set of benefits that two-weapon fighting doesn't (e.g. free hand when not attacking) but it also lacks the benefits of a glaive with Polearm Master (e.g. reach).

Yup that's what I dislike about it. One, count it one, weapon gets a bonus action attack just by using it, while other bonus attacks all come from class abilities, feats, or spells.
... or using two weapons. Honestly, it is still a little bit of power creep, but only relative to the fighting style widely regarded as the worst. Fun fact: a double-bladed scimitar is ineligible for the damage boost from Great Weapon Master, as it lacks the heavy property.

[Rukelnikov]

I mean, sure by a tiny, tiny fraction, but now you also get another different feat as a Vuman. Something like sentinel to get your reaction attack, lucky to have better accuracy, inspiring leader on paladins to be tankier, and so on. Yes, the PAM build can get any of those too, but they're a full 4 levels slower to get their feats online. Alternatively, if you don't want the extra feat and you want to boost stats, both can have a bonus action attack at level 1 and max two stats by level 16, but the DBS guy gets to also have sentinel or whichever other one the entire time. It's blatantly better in that case.

I see that, maybe I'm rating reach too highly.

[Foxhound438]

I see that, maybe I'm rating reach too highly.

I mean, unless you're specifically building to abuse it, IE fear spam or combining with sentinel, they just take one step and you're in the same old damage race like nothing's changed. And while PAM+sentinel is strong in its own ways, it's not a guarantee that you even hit that opportunity attack, and sometimes enemies also have ranged attacks that match their melee options anyways. A lot of larger enemies have longer reach too, so the difference of having an extra 5' yourself is entirely defeated in those cases. And on top of it all, a PAM+sentinel build is now 2 feats behind a vanilla DBS.

[stoutstien]

Do you factor that the revenant blade feat user can now be Dex based?

[Rukelnikov]

I mean, unless you're specifically building to abuse it, IE fear spam or combining with sentinel, they just take one step and you're in the same old damage race like nothing's changed. And while PAM+sentinel is strong in its own ways, it's not a guarantee that you even hit that opportunity attack, and sometimes enemies also have ranged attacks that match their melee options anyways. A lot of larger enemies have longer reach too, so the difference of having an extra 5' yourself is entirely defeated in those cases. And on top of it all, a PAM+sentinel build is now 2 feats behind a vanilla DBS.

I wasn't thinking of Sentinel but of close in, attack, back off, if they wanna attack me they gotta provoke. Its only a first turn strat and it does have diminishing returns in late, since as you say, more and more of the enemies have 10 ft or greater reach by then.

[Mjolnirbear]

I'd like to kindly point out that the DS also lets you get that bonus action attack for free, and unlike TWF you have a hand free for casting spells, so you also don't need warcaster...

Not entirely. They can use their object interaction to sheath their weapon, allowing somatic components, and their focus if it's an amulet or component pouch. Then next turn they can simply draw the weapon. Having a second weapon does not affect reaction attacks in any way, so there's no loss here in most spellcasting cases.

It gets more complicated when you need a hand for something else that requires an object interaction, forcing you to drop your weapon.

I'm totally against the feat and weapon as is and have completely rewritten my TWF rules and feats. But even though I hate the current RAW your particular argument isn't really an issue IMO.

[Snowbluff]

Not entirely. They can use their object interaction to sheath their weapon, allowing somatic components, and their focus if it's an amulet or component pouch. Then next turn they can simply draw the weapon. Having a second weapon does not affect reaction attacks in any way, so there's no loss here in most spellcasting cases.

It gets more complicated when you need a hand for something else that requires an object interaction, forcing you to drop your weapon.

I'm totally against the feat and weapon as is and have completely rewritten my TWF rules and feats. But even though I hate the current RAW your particular argument isn't really an issue IMO.

Oh, you are the rare caster who doesn't know Shield or the rare gish who weapons that care passive effects that require being held. Carry on.

[JackPhoenix]

Fun fact: a double-bladed scimitar is ineligible for the damage boost from Great Weapon Master, as it lacks the heavy property.

It is, however, compatible with Great Weapon FIGHTING STYLE (requires melee weapon used in two hands), and it works better than with any other weapon there, as you get 50% chance of reroll on every die.

[Mjolnirbear]

Oh, you are the rare caster who doesn't know Shield or the rare gish who weapons that care passive effects that require being held. Carry on.

I mean, you could drop your weapon to cast Shield during a reaction...

Also what weapon has passive effects? Unless you mean magic weapons, and those are rarely so common that you can snag two right away. I have games with actual magic marts and only the barbarian has a magic weapon so far.

But as I implied in my post using the words "not entirely" there are sure to be circumstances where dropping a weapon or sheathing it interferes with your ability to gish or the minor inconvenience of dropping a weapon becomes major, such as someone kicking it away from you. What I was saying is that the problem that you describe isn't really that much of a problem in most circumstances, and there at least three ways to cast with your hands full: holy symbol, ruby of the war mage, and improved pact weapon. Taking War Caster solely to bypass hands-full technicalities is a convenience at best. It's the opportunity attack casting and the advantage on concentration checks that are the real reasons one wants War Caster.

My problem with is that the weapon grants you a bonus action attack, with ability mod bonus to damage, without the use of a feat and duplicating a fighting style. The feat itself is not that big a deal. They made TWF obsolete in a game where TWF is the least effective and most obstructive combat style already, which is simply adding insult to injury.

Or it would, had I not already rewritten TWF rules. Mod to offhand attack is base; fighting style allows larger weapons; feat makes the offhand attack not cost a bonus action and grants à reaction attack if à melee attack misses you.