Dealing with a Mostly Chaotic &/or Evil Party

[HoodedHero007]

So, in my campaign, there is literally only one good character, a CG Fighter/Warlock/Wizard, and all the other characters are TN at best, and CE at worst. They're not necessarily Murderhobos... yet, but they nearly always go the "Messed Up" route. When encountered with 7 possessed children, 3 were murdered before the CG character secretly saved the other 4. It is, if nothing else, incredibly frustrating, and I need to find a way to get them to be at least decent people beyond "The Enemy is Even Worse."

Suggestions?

[Admael]

Report their actions to the local constabulary. This will OOC let the other player's know that your character won't let theirs get away with nonsense like evil for evil's sake.

[Sigreid]

Tell them the kind of game you want to run and Pont out this isn't it.

Likely, what you are running into is people fantasizing about what it would be like to be callous in a way they would never dream of in real life.

[HoodedHero007]

Tell them the kind of game you want to run and Pont out this isn't it.

Likely, what you are running into is people fantasizing about what it would be like to be callous in a way they would never dream of in real life.
It's closer to "I'm Bored. Let's take an Assassination Contract for some extra cash!"

[Man_Over_Game]

So, in my campaign, there is literally only one good character, a CG Fighter/Warlock/Wizard, and all the other characters are TN at best, and CE at worst. They're not necessarily Murderhobos... yet, but they nearly always go the "Messed Up" route. When encountered with 7 possessed children, 3 were murdered before the CG character secretly saved the other 4. It is, if nothing else, incredibly frustrating, and I need to find a way to get them to be at least decent people beyond "The Enemy is Even Worse."

Suggestions?

A deity has cursed them, causing all Redcaps to be hunting them. Judging by how much they kill people, there will be a lot coming after them. In the middle of the night, maybe? Perhaps 1-2 stacks of Exhaustion will be enough incentive for them to find alternate methods of dealing with problems rather than bloodshed first.

You could also Geas them, but that is a douche move if I ever seen one.

You could also just provide ample incentives for their good deeds. Maybe a "taskmaster" is assigned to watch over them and provide missions and support to them, and rewards them for accomplishing good goals, when the Taskmaster is actually tasked with watching over them and killing them if they do not change. The group is particularly powerful in regards to fate, and a higher power wants to make sure that they assist in the Entity's interests. It's not necessarily "good", but masked as such (because if they continue to be Evil, they ruin a part of the Entity's plan).



You can't just force them to not be violent and care about your world, because that might not be what they're wanting to do at your table. It sounds like they want to kill things. Now, you can fight that and make yourself and everyone else miserable because you all want different things, or you can just adjust things so that they get what they want while doing good in your world.
So use their murderous habits for good. Perhaps a noble hears of them and offers jobs that involve lots of violence for the good reasons. Save a village from an army of goblins, assist a temple in shutting away a dark terror, that kind of stuff. If you provide the violence for them, they'll have no reason to look for it and make bad choices.

[Rukelnikov]

So, in my campaign, there is literally only one good character, a CG Fighter/Warlock/Wizard, and all the other characters are TN at best, and CE at worst. They're not necessarily Murderhobos... yet, but they nearly always go the "Messed Up" route. When encountered with 7 possessed children, 3 were murdered before the CG character secretly saved the other 4. It is, if nothing else, incredibly frustrating, and I need to find a way to get them to be at least decent people beyond "The Enemy is Even Worse."

Suggestions?

It'll be pretty hard/impossible to get them to become "decent" ppl by in game situations. You could:

A- Have the big bad take them under his wing so he can betray them later on, that way they'll still be dealing with the big bad.
B- Have some real good guys take on them AFTER spreading the word of their misdeeds all over the country, remarking time and again during the encounter that killing them would only prove them right. After this they either go on trial (where penance could be any quest you want), or become full outlaws.

[MilkmanDanimal]

End your campaign, start a new one with a session 0 where everybody agrees on theme, and explicitly say if they want to run that kind of game you don't want to DM it.

[Sigreid]

It's closer to "I'm Bored. Let's take an Assassination Contract for some extra cash!"

Then maybe figure out how to address the "I'm bored" portion of that statement. Whatever you do, I'd advise against the suggestions to arbitrarily punish the characters. That's unlikely to lead to a long running enjoyable group.

Still think your best course is to tell them straight up what kind of campaign you're willing to run.

[GlenSmash!]

End your campaign, start a new one with a session 0 where everybody agrees on theme, and explicitly say if they want to run that kind of game you don't want to DM it.

This goes along way to stemming the PCs as sociopaths problem. If you lay out the kind of game you enjoy running and the kind of game you don't at the begging, you are much more likely to have players steer from behavior you find unfun.

I establish a couple of things with my players in sessions 0s. I don't DM pvp and the table needs to agree on the tone of the game. I'll DM for a deliberately evil group, but not a Chaotic Stupid group. But if a player is not fine with the dark side, we'll all need to work something out.

[airless_wing]

I started a campaign with my family, and haflway through the first session I realized that most of the characters were evil. So I had them begin working for a Beholder, who functions as a paranoid mob-boss style of character. They can then go on morally-grey adventures; the Beholder wants to expand his power, and he can give the players power and money in return for tasks they do for him; such as consolidate power by causing trouble with a rival thieves guild, or steal rare items from other people's castles and keeps.

This allows them to go adventuring and do fun things, but still touch upon a bit of the "evils" tropes that they seem to want.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

I started a campaign with my family, and haflway through the first session I realized that most of the characters were evil. So I had them begin working for a Beholder, who functions as a paranoid mob-boss style of character. They can then go on morally-grey adventures; the Beholder wants to expand his power, and he can give the players power and money in return for tasks they do for him; such as consolidate power by causing trouble with a rival thieves guild, or steal rare items from other people's castles and keeps.

This allows them to go adventuring and do fun things, but still touch upon a bit of the "evils" tropes that they seem to want.

I'd go with something like this.

I think it depends how rigid the vision you have for your universe is. If you already had a complete hero plot set up, then it could be frustrating, yeah. If it wasn't that developed to begin with, I'd just say embrace it and land the party somewhere where they can be evil. Give them a secret base, henchman, and have competing evil powers either vying for their power or trying to align with them. Have your dragon fights be against Metallic Dragons instead of the normal Chromatic.

I think the only issue is your CG guy. If everyone was evil or neutral, then it could work, but your one CG guy wrecks the dynamic in the same way a CE guy would in a normal heroes party. Maybe have his Warlock patron stick him with a "the ends justify the means" style mission for the greater good that aligns with the missions the evil guys are being sent on.

[Nhorianscum]

So, in my campaign, there is literally only one good character, a CG Fighter/Warlock/Wizard, and all the other characters are TN at best, and CE at worst. They're not necessarily Murderhobos... yet, but they nearly always go the "Messed Up" route. When encountered with 7 possessed children, 3 were murdered before the CG character secretly saved the other 4. It is, if nothing else, incredibly frustrating, and I need to find a way to get them to be at least decent people beyond "The Enemy is Even Worse."

Suggestions?

You really can't force it in game, hold a session zero next time and just roll with the chaos this playthrough.

Also talk with your players.

[Aquillion]

So, in my campaign, there is literally only one good character, a CG Fighter/Warlock/Wizard, and all the other characters are TN at best, and CE at worst. They're not necessarily Murderhobos... yet, but they nearly always go the "Messed Up" route. When encountered with 7 possessed children, 3 were murdered before the CG character secretly saved the other 4. It is, if nothing else, incredibly frustrating, and I need to find a way to get them to be at least decent people beyond "The Enemy is Even Worse."

Suggestions?This is an out-of-character issue, not an in-character issue.

First, decide what sort of game you want to run. You're unclear about why you find this frustrating - if they want to be evil, and you are otherwise all right with them being evil, then there's no problem. If the CG character is having fun being the token good teammate, then it's fine.

However, if the issue is that you don't want to run an evil game, then that's different. In that case you should talk to the players about what sort of game you want to run and about your limits in terms of the evilness you're willing to have at your table. You might also consider the tone you want the game to have beyond that - ie. is their evil supposed to be cartoonish and unrealistic, or should it be grim and gritty, with the consequences of their evil deeds addressed at length? This will affect how you describe it, and you might be more willing to do an evil game if it's cartoonish rather than approached realistically.

But it's unclear to me why you want them to be decent people, and you need to pause and answer that question first, since they certainly don't seem to want to be decent people (after all, a lot of them wrote "evil" on their character sheet.)

Also, as people said above, in the future it's a good idea to sit down with everyone and have a "what sort of game do we want?" discussion even before they make their characters.


It's closer to "I'm Bored. Let's take an Assassination Contract for some extra cash!" You might also want to consider whether they're bored in-character or out-of-character, and if so, what they want out of the game beyond just good and evil. It's possible that they're looking for more of a "kick down the door, kill things, acquire loot" campaign than you're aiming for - the sort of thing you're describing feels like the players are trying to push the game in terms of "fight things and get money", anyway. If that's the issue you could alternatively address that by putting more of those things in the main story (fights and obvious opportunities for loot, that is.)

[OmSwaOperations]

Honestly think the constabulary option is the best one.

Have their evil, twisted actions result in serious bad consequences, and then watch them moderate their behaviour.

If they don't, they're probably going to end up hunted as outlaws/cast into the criminal underworld; and then that might be a really fascinating plotline in itself...

[Mjolnirbear]

In future, make team player a requirement for characters. Or say 'no evil' or 'no pvp'.

For this game, I like the beholder idea. It can channel the chaos and focus their attention in a constructive way, and bad guys as bosses are à lot less lenient and have a lot more ways to punish those who stray.

[rlc]

If they're evil characters, then they're obviously the villains of the story, not the heroes. Maybe somebody more evil can use them to do stuff, but they obviously need the actual heroes to get involved.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Evil in D&D seems to attract folks who don't have patience.

I love the old chaotic evil does not equal chaotic stupid line. Every so often I like dropping in a probably evil NPC who is actually out to help the party. Someone who doesn't mind doing good if it helps raise their status or in exchange for an artifact or coin.

[sophontteks]

Kill them all and purge the evil from this land.

[Kyutaru]

This may be without merit but could it be that the problem is with the people? If they're roleplaying sociopaths, maybe that says something about their own inner demons. Convincing them to act like decent human beings would first require that they themselves are decent human beings capable of acting the part.

Evil in gaming is a seductive lure for people with deeper emotional issues. It's a safe environment to act out what they crave on the inside.

[zinycor]

Being evil is a legit way to play the game, they aren't doing anything wrong and have no reason to feel bad about playing horrible monsters.

My suggestion is to be open with them and tell them that this isn't the sort of game you want to run, and ask them to restart a new campaign with characters you would feel better running.

[zinycor]

On the other hand, what is the deal with these people commenting on people playing evil characters like they having issues? Isn't the whole hobby about scapism and doing things you don't do in real life? Why would you judge people based on the characters they play on a private game?

[Potato_Priest]

So, in my campaign, there is literally only one good character, a CG Fighter/Warlock/Wizard, and all the other characters are TN at best, and CE at worst. They're not necessarily Murderhobos... yet, but they nearly always go the "Messed Up" route. When encountered with 7 possessed children, 3 were murdered before the CG character secretly saved the other 4. It is, if nothing else, incredibly frustrating, and I need to find a way to get them to be at least decent people beyond "The Enemy is Even Worse."

Suggestions?

I'd encourage you, if you've never run an evil/murderhobo game before, to give it a try. It really can be quite fun to GM, once you get the hang of it.

Still obviously talk to your group, since the players and GM sharing expectations about the game is important, but if you've never tried running an evil game, you might as well give it a shot since it's what your players seem to want.

Also, if you'd like any guidance, feel free to PM me. My players have been murderhoboing pretty exclusively for a couple years now, so I have a bit of experience with how to make things fun. I'd be happy to discuss encounter design and other issues with a DM who has a group of players with similar tastes, so that we can share our experiences with what I think is a fairly underrepresented subset of gamers on these forums.

[sophontteks]

On the other hand, what is the deal with these people commenting on people playing evil characters like they having issues? Isn't the whole hobby about scapism and doing things you don't do in real life? Why would you judge people based on the characters they play on a private game?
You say that, but you'd probably judge me based on my characters. :smallbiggrin:

[MarkVIIIMarc]

This may be without merit but could it be that the problem is with the people? If they're roleplaying sociopaths, maybe that says something about their own inner demons. Convincing them to act like decent human beings would first require that they themselves are decent human beings capable of acting the part.

Evil in gaming is a seductive lure for people with deeper emotional issues. It's a safe environment to act out what they crave on the inside.

Agree and disagree.

If folks are playing semi intelligent evil bankrobbers who know not to kill guards in the open so be it.

Or the classic group of thugs out together for a suicide mission. Sure they cross the line sometimes and maybe they just want to be freed but there is some PLAN to their evil.

We sometimes root for them folks in movies even.

[Wildarm]

So, in my campaign, there is literally only one good character, a CG Fighter/Warlock/Wizard, and all the other characters are TN at best, and CE at worst. They're not necessarily Murderhobos... yet, but they nearly always go the "Messed Up" route. When encountered with 7 possessed children, 3 were murdered before the CG character secretly saved the other 4. It is, if nothing else, incredibly frustrating, and I need to find a way to get them to be at least decent people beyond "The Enemy is Even Worse."

Suggestions?

It's your campaign, if players are making it un-enjoyable for you then talk to them. If you don't want LE/NE/CE players(or actions) be explicit about that. As a DM I usually give a BIG warning before any flagrant offense like murdering innocents. I also usually let players subdue enemies without difficulty. Running out of HP is them giving up or being knocked unconscious. Of all the evil alignments, LE is often the most palatable so I occasionally allow it if I know the player can pull it off without causing issues with other players in the party. He's basically working within the rules of law to better himself with little regard for the welfare of others. Plenty of people like that IRL.

If they fail to heed your request, well, evildoers are often brought to justice for crimes. Even without witnesses, magic makes it very easy to find out who killed someone and where they are located in D&D. No problem to send high level bounty hunters, adventurers or officers to bring a (mass)murderer to justice. That's literally the plot hook for so many adventures.

[Zhorn]

Stopping players from being... well... players is difficult.

I remember quite a few conversations I had with my players during character creation backstory discussions. Half the party, after I had already outlined the game I was aiming to run was going to be heroic fantasy/save-the-day style adventuring, were emailing me "I would stab my friends in the back for a few gold", "I'll betray everyone for power", "I'm an assassin who would kill anyone for the right price", "I'll kill anyone that gets in my way, even my own family", "I aspire to be a crime lord", and here I am thinking "Whoa, pump the brakes, that is NOT the game I've been planning for".
There have been a few back and forths over many character details, because while I want the players to have characters they own, I had to make it very clear numerous times that I had no interest in running an evil campaign.
Compromises had to be made on my end also. It can't be a one sided discussion.
I've been tweaking things in the adventure so far to enable the players to do thing with their characters that they've been wanting to do from the start, BUT re-framed into not being evil characters, or at least actively trying to not be evil any more.
Assassinations are played out as eliminating corrupt leaders
Robberies as recovering stole goods
Murder plots are instead eliminating someone who's out to get them in turn

Backstories are nudged into a more 'reasonable' format
Think like The Family (2013), A History of Violence (2005), or as a more friendly example Atlantis the Lost Empire (2001)

Vinny : "We done a lot of things we're not proud of. Robbing graves, eh, plundering tombs, double parking. But, nobody got hurt. Well, maybe somebody got hurt, but nobody we knew."

[Malifice]

So, in my campaign, there is literally only one good character, a CG Fighter/Warlock/Wizard, and all the other characters are TN at best, and CE at worst. They're not necessarily Murderhobos... yet, but they nearly always go the "Messed Up" route. When encountered with 7 possessed children, 3 were murdered before the CG character secretly saved the other 4. It is, if nothing else, incredibly frustrating, and I need to find a way to get them to be at least decent people beyond "The Enemy is Even Worse."

Suggestions?

It's your campaign and you need suggestions?

Talk to your players as adults, ban evil alignments, or reward Good acts with bonus XP or all three.

If that fails, have the PCs hung for murder.

[Keravath]

There are some good suggestions already. Here are some more ..

1) Some folks have fun playing evil characters. One key element is to try to ensure that evil characters in a party does not cause intra-party conflict. The characters must have an in-game reason for adventuring together. Something that ties them into a group. Conflicting alignments can lead to intra-party conflict and the resultant explosion and fall out often isn't pretty. You need to have an out of character conversation with the players to see what direction they plan to take their characters and what they plan to do. In many cases, players tend more towards chaos and not respecting laws rather than actual evil but it varies.

2) Playing evil characters is not a sign of some innate real life character flaw or hidden personal out of game agenda or living some evil fantasy. Anyone, who reads a bunch of psychological overtones into character and role play choices is taking a role playing game way too far. Personally, I am not comfortable playing evil characters so I don't. Really evil characters just don't work for most parties. On the other hand, the definition of "evil" varies from individual to individual and a lot of the time folks who play "evil" characters aren't really very "evil".

Is killing possessed children evil? Is killing possessed adults evil? Does it depend on whether the possession is permanent or not? Does it depend on whether the creature possessing them is also killed by the action or not? (I am clearly not discussing the real world here, it is a fantasy game world that operates under different rules, there are different religions and different mores and cultures).

3) If your party goes off the rails, killing innocents, attacking villages, robbing, running some sort of criminal organization, then think about it a bit since for some of the NPCs in your game world THEY have become the villains. THEY might be the BBEG. Forces in the game world will be mobilized to deal with them if they make themselves too noticeable or behave too "evil". Some of those forces may well be sufficient to defeat the party. Try to impress upon the party members that their actions in the game world WILL cause responses and reactions from the NPCs. In a typical D&D campaign, the PCs usually have to deal with some antagonist and in many cases good will triumph over evil since that is the kind of story most folks prefer. The PCs should be made aware that most of the world is typically neutral to good, that evil forces won't tend to band together (they tend to fall apart when one element sees a clear advantage to back stabbing another), and that if they behave openly evil (sociopath/psychopath) all the time then they are likely on the losing side of the campaign in the long run.

On the other hand, the party can probably slip under the radar if they choose to run a criminal organization or gang and are evil with a lower case 'e' :). The choice is up to the DM how to handle it. However, whether the party is good, evil, neutral or something else, their actions should have consequences which is generally the key to keeping things under control assuming the players are invested in the characters. On the other hand, if a player wants to suicide their character by over the top role playing, there isn't much the DM can or should do to prevent it except remind the player that there will be consequences to actions and the authorities can be very powerful.

[Kurt Kurageous]

End your campaign, start a new one with a session 0 where everybody agrees on theme, and explicitly say if they want to run that kind of game you don't want to DM it.

Agreed.

The mistake was made in session zero and can only be corrected in session zero.

I have two rules. No PVP, and this is not GTA5 Medieval Setting. Don't want that? Find another DM, cause I won't enjoy it.

Alignments mean nothing, actions everything. Act like a bunch of gnolls, get treated like a bunch of gnolls.

I also have a definition of evil/good that is an attitude towards the communities of the races that match the general alignments. They don't sound like my evil, they sound like homicidal mainiacs and sadists. Nobody hires that.

[sithlordnergal]

So, first thing's first: Is their evil behavior causing large issues and is it disruptive? Do you have reason to believe it will become disruptive in the future?

If both answers are "No", then I wouldn't worry about it. They can have a reputation of getting the job done no matter the cost. It makes them more like Bounty Hunters then actual heroes. People know they can hire the PC's and get the job done, but it won't exactly be clean. You can have some forces of law out to get them if you like, and that would add some reality to it. But unless they've turned it into a scorched earth type of game, then I wouldn't worry too much.

As for your example...did you make any clear options for dealing with said possessed children? Sure, they may be kids, but if its easier to kill little Regan and her friends instead of exorcising the Demon, then some parties may decide to kill them.

[Shuruke]

End your campaign, start a new one with a session 0 where everybody agrees on theme, and explicitly say if they want to run that kind of game you don't want to DM it.

This, if your players want to be that way there is no way to change how they are going to play

The only way would be either hard reset like above


Or sit down with them as players and make it clear this isnt fun for you and something needs to change whether new characters, new personalities or whatever.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's your campaign and you need suggestions?

Talk to your players as adults, ban evil alignments, or reward Good acts with bonus XP or all three.

If that fails, have the PCs hung for murder. Hanged. :smallcool:

[CTurbo]

Out of game, talk to your players about what you want and/or expect from your games. Address any other issues/concerns you or the players have. If it is decided that they are going to continue down the evil path, explain to them that their actions will have consequences.

In game, build a NPC Paladin at a level 3 times higher than the party's level. Maybe toss in a NPC Life Cleric and a couple generic NPC Champion Fighters. This will be the NPC "hero" party that is hunting the player's party. The Paladin will lead this party and will benefit from plot armor when necessary. Keep them hot on the heels of the party so any little mistake will lead to a battle the party won't be able to win.


Most importantly, as DM, you are in control. Don't allow the party to play evil if you don't want them to. If you choose to allow it, it CAN be fun if played correctly. Just explain to your players that an evil campaign is going to be a very hard campaign. Punish their actions as necessary until they get the point.

[GreyBlack]

A group of paladins has begun tracking this group of neerdowells and now the party has to fight for their lives on the run from this group. As such, it's kill or be killed and now the party has to find a way to succeed or die trying.

[Teagana]

I've been in a party like this. A party of three, my character was probably neutral evil, another character was good or neutral, and my brother's character was definitely chaotic evil.

The CE character had a generally bad influence on mine, he took roleplay of his bloodthirsty and mean hindrances maybe a little too far, and his evilness eventually led the other player to leave the party. My personal commitment to the party was the only thing that kept my character from slitting his throat in his sleep.

Finally, after he killed a random merchant on the side of the road in front of a carriage driver for no reason, the GM acted. When we came into a town a while later, we found a wanted poster of ourselves. Extremely dangerous, do not approach, etc. The neutral character wanted to turn us all in to the guards and beg for leniency, I wanted to flee the country. We eventually decided to turn ourselves in, and the GM ret-conned it if we promised to be less brazenly evil (lesson learned: leave no witnesses).

My brother later decided he wanted his Saturdays back, so his character left the party, and the other player joined again. His character won't be welcome back.

This feels a like an overlong response, but you can either punish their crime in-game by bringing the law down on them, other adventurers come to try to take them out, or, if that's not the game you want to run, you can talk to the players out of the game. As a first-time DM, I flatly forbid evil alignments, because I had experienced it and did not want to deal with it.

This video on ways to deal with murderhobos may be useful, the presenter is not the most engaging, but his info is pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMpVxtTWqbc

[jjordan]

Spectres, revenants, ghosts. Haunted dreams that prevent healing. Reward posters. People afraid to do business with them. Scavengers following them. Dark powers seeking them out to offer employment. Features becoming bestial. Adventurers coming into town to try and arrest them. Kill them.

[jjordan]

Oh, and a night hag or two.

[darknite]

Sounds like it's time for a powerful demon to take note of these malefactors. Make them offers they can't refuse, with powerful incentives and unforgiving penalties. Or a paladin order has become aware that a new force for evil has become unleashed upon the land and strike team in dispatched to eradicate it. Somewhere in here offer a source of redemption. In the end they can be a less sociopathic but independent adventuring group, powerful but enslaved demon thralls or public enemy number one with a price on their head, or the last two together.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I grew up with westerns. This is a party of black hats.

Every person who wants to make a name for themselves challenges them. Every single newly 3rd level assassin...sharpshooter bowman...spell sniper...in every town...until they are dead dead dead.

This is what being declared "outlaw" meant. You were outside the law, anyone could do anything to you. Your property was forfeit to whoever claimed it. Your life was for the taking.

So maybe the first time, the NPCs blunder by talking too loud in the tavern, giving the party a heads up. Do they slaughter their would be bushwhackers? Or slink out of town and rethink their life.

Either way, this movie has got to end.