Monk's Patient Defense

[Tzun]

The Monk class can certainly be very defensive at higher levels with missile catching and proficiency in all saves, but in the first tier of play with limited Ki points, I find them to be very squishy. They're usually meant to be played as skimisher types rather than frontline combatants, but more often than not, they seem to be caught out in the open or in the back ranks of the enemy without enough speed to make it back to safety and with their d8 hit dice and mediocre AC, they're usually the first to get KO'ed.

Their Patient Defense ability is supposed to help mitigate their squishiness, but given the limited amount of ki early on and the fact that it competes with flurry of blows and martial arts for bonus action use, this does not work very well IMO especially since I think monks need all the help they can get offensively.

So I'm thinking about a house rule where monks would use Patient Defense as a Reaction rather than a bonus action. This would work like the shield spell where if you get hit, expend your reaction to take the Dodge action and the attacker would have to roll again. This benefit lasts until the end of the round. This solves the issue with competing with flurry and martial arts and also you only need to spend the ki on Patient Defense when you actually need it so your limited ki points can last longer.

What do you guys think? Too much?

[Man_Over_Game]

The Monk class can certainly be very defensive at higher levels with missile catching and proficiency in all saves, but in the first tier of play with limited Ki points, I find them to be very squishy. They're usually meant to be played as skimisher types rather than frontline combatants, but more often than not, they seem to be caught out in the open or in the back ranks of the enemy without enough speed to make it back to safety and with their d8 hit dice and mediocre AC, they're usually the first to get KO'ed.

Their Patient Defense ability is supposed to help mitigate their squishiness, but given the limited amount of ki early on and the fact that it competes with flurry of blows and martial arts for bonus action use, this does not work very well IMO especially since I think monks need all the help they can get offensively.

So I'm thinking about a house rule where monks would use Patient Defense as a Reaction rather than a bonus action. This would work like the shield spell where if you get hit, expend your reaction to take the Dodge action and the attacker would have to roll again. This benefit lasts until the end of the round. This solves the issue with competing with flurry and martial arts and also you only need to spend the ki on Patient Defense when you actually need it so your limited ki points can last longer.

What do you guys think? Too much?

It's probably a little too good. Competing with the fact that you get +1-+2 attacks more than everyone else was part of the design goal, I think.

If you make it as a Reaction, there has to be a reason as to why you wouldn't want to use it all the time. 1 Ki point is too accessible, but what about 2? I think that sounds like a fair tradeoff.

[Galithar]

I've seen Monk's in play and I think of you are getting caught horribly out of position and going down you aren't using your resources correctly. If you need patient defense to stay alive you need to be 'patient'. Meaning let the fight take a little longer and use openings to make your flurry strikes. Letting it be used on a reaction just let's them have better offense, and better defense.

I'm a huge fan of the Monk and at risk of sounding rude if you struggle with playing them there is something wrong. Either with encounter difficulty, your build, or your usage of resources. They are a class of tactics in my opinion. You're not a Barbarian who just goes in swinging. You need to use your extra speed (maybe even supplement it with things like Mobile) to get to the good spots and then when you're in the clear burst some Ki damage.

Wait until the enemy is engaged with your melee line (use your first round for ranged attacks if needed) then move in once most combatants would risk OA to come at you. Get next to 1 or 2 enemies and Nova your Ki. Flurry of Blows with 4 stunning strikes has had my level 5 Monk player stun the entire encounter in one turn. Now that was a full Nova, but he simply requested the party let him catch his breath (in character request for short rest) and then moved on.

You don't need to Nova like that, but when you DO it can be incredibly effective. As a Monk you don't need to be to one dealing damage. Setting up others for dealing damage is just as good. Move in, stunning Strike one person and walk away. Ki point step of the wind of patient defense if you really need to get out of Dodge. If you don't THEN you make that unarmed strike before backing up.


Tl;DR I don't think the Monk needs a change like this. It increases their power where I don't see it as needed.

[Rukelnikov]

The Monk class can certainly be very defensive at higher levels with missile catching and proficiency in all saves, but in the first tier of play with limited Ki points, I find them to be very squishy. They're usually meant to be played as skimisher types rather than frontline combatants, but more often than not, they seem to be caught out in the open or in the back ranks of the enemy without enough speed to make it back to safety and with their d8 hit dice and mediocre AC, they're usually the first to get KO'ed.

Their Patient Defense ability is supposed to help mitigate their squishiness, but given the limited amount of ki early on and the fact that it competes with flurry of blows and martial arts for bonus action use, this does not work very well IMO especially since I think monks need all the help they can get offensively.

So I'm thinking about a house rule where monks would use Patient Defense as a Reaction rather than a bonus action. This would work like the shield spell where if you get hit, expend your reaction to take the Dodge action and the attacker would have to roll again. This benefit lasts until the end of the round. This solves the issue with competing with flurry and martial arts and also you only need to spend the ki on Patient Defense when you actually need it so your limited ki points can last longer.

What do you guys think? Too much?

The Monk should try not to put himself in a position where he needs Patient Defense to survive, but in case that something unexpected happens, or that he needs to take the front line for a round or two he can trade damage for defense.

If you wanna make it as a reaction I'd do it something like this:

"When attacked the monk can choose to spend 1 ki point and impose disadvantage on attacks against him from attackers he can see for the remainder of the turn."

[NaughtyTiger]

Feels too strong.

On the other hand, you burn through your ki 2x as fast...

Other monks i have seen in t1 play dont have the same problem. Consider short bow until t2..


If you wanna make it as a reaction I'd do it something like this:

"When attacked the monk can choose to spend 1 ki point and impose disadvantage on attacks against him from attackers he can see for the remainder of the turn."

Since that is what the OP proposed, i take it you agree with him...

[Rukelnikov]

I made it so there's no roll involved as with Dodge and also it lasts only until the end of the turn.

I don't think it should be changed, but if it was...

[Galithar]

Feels too strong.

On the other hand, you burn through your ki 2x as fast...

Other monks i have seen in t1 play dont have the same problem. Consider short bow until t2..



Since that is what the OP proposed, i take it you agree with him...

Technically OP proposed till the beginning of your next turn and he proposed till the end of the turn. Which while he may have meant the same thing he did actually make a different proposition. End of turn only effects the creature currently attacking. The next creatures turn would be the end if the effect by my understanding. Though I may be nitpicking wording here.

[stoutstien]

At low lvs monks can work just fine with a short bow if it is a risk of being caught in a pickle

[MaxWilson]

The Monk class can certainly be very defensive at higher levels with missile catching and proficiency in all saves, but in the first tier of play with limited Ki points, I find them to be very squishy. They're usually meant to be played as skimisher types rather than frontline combatants, but more often than not, they seem to be caught out in the open or in the back ranks of the enemy without enough speed to make it back to safety and with their d8 hit dice and mediocre AC, they're usually the first to get KO'ed.

Their Patient Defense ability is supposed to help mitigate their squishiness, but given the limited amount of ki early on and the fact that it competes with flurry of blows and martial arts for bonus action use, this does not work very well IMO especially since I think monks need all the help they can get offensively.

So I'm thinking about a house rule where monks would use Patient Defense as a Reaction rather than a bonus action. This would work like the shield spell where if you get hit, expend your reaction to take the Dodge action and the attacker would have to roll again. This benefit lasts until the end of the round. This solves the issue with competing with flurry and martial arts and also you only need to spend the ki on Patient Defense when you actually need it so your limited ki points can last longer.

What do you guys think? Too much?

I think the monks at your table must be doing something wrong. Monks are not tanks, even if you roll good stats. They are skirmishers and disablers. They should be avoiding getting ganged up on, darting in and out of the fray, chucking darts and other missile weapons, and occasionally using plain old Dodge instead of Patient Defense. (Once Stunning Strike comes online, they have a punishing opportunity attack available to them which encourages enemies to not risk bypassing them.)

Stillness of Mind, however, should indeed be a reaction. What good is the ability to spend your reaction to overcome fear or charm, if the fear or charm effect (like Hypnotic Pattern or Fear) is preventing you from spending your actions in the first place?

[Galithar]

I think the monks at your table must be doing something wrong. Monks are not tanks, even if you roll good stats. They are skirmishers and disablers. They should be avoiding getting ganged up on, darting in and out of the fray, chucking darts and other missile weapons, and occasionally using plain old Dodge instead of Patient Defense. (Once Stunning Strike comes online, they have a punishing opportunity attack available to them which encourages enemies to not risk bypassing them.)

Stillness of Mind, however, should indeed be a reaction. What good is the ability to spend your reaction to overcome fear or charm, if the fear or charm effect (like Hypnotic Pattern or Fear) is preventing you from spending your actions in the first place?

Also you can become susceptible to most of those in your next turn when breaking them with Stillness if Mind.

Example: Dragons fear aura. You become immune for 24 hours if you succeeded on your saving throw. By using Stillness of Mind to break it you used your action to break the effect without making the saving throw and as such are still not immune to bring affected next turn. So you gain just a little bit less even when it is usable.

[Tzun]

I played a long death Monk up to level 5 and I found that having mobile feat helped a lot but it was still hard to stay out of trouble. The temp HP from long death was very situational. Maybe I was playing too aggressively but I tell you, monks ranged damage is mediocre at best. He had a short bow (was human and didn't have long bow prof) so 1d6+4 at 4th level was pretty low damage. It was too tempting to go melee with either martial arts or flurry which didn't leave much for patient defense or step of wind to get out of trouble. I can't imagine how much worse it would have been if he didn't have mobile feat.

Since there were some questions, to clarify and somewhat amend how I would change the way patient defense works is: spend 1 ki point to take Dodge action as Reaction when you are successfully hit. This would cause the instigating hit to be rerolled due to disadvantage. As in the original ability you would be Dodging until the start of your next turn.

[NaughtyTiger]

I played a long death Monk up to level 5 and I found that having mobile feat helped a lot but it was still hard to stay out of trouble. The temp HP from long death was very situational. Maybe I was playing too aggressively but I tell you, monks ranged damage is mediocre at best. He had a short bow (was human and didn't have long bow prof) so 1d6+4 at 4th level was pretty low damage. It was too tempting to go melee with either martial arts or flurry which didn't leave much for patient defense or step of wind to get out of trouble. I can't imagine how much worse it would have been if he didn't have mobile feat.

Since there were some questions, to clarify and somewhat amend how I would change the way patient defense works is: spend 1 ki point to take Dodge action as Reaction when you are successfully hit. This would cause the instigating hit to be rerolled due to disadvantage. As in the original ability you would be Dodging until the start of your next turn.

Again I don't think it needs to be changed based on stuff at my tables.
But how about this minor tweak

"spend 1 ki point to take Dodge action as Reaction when you are attacked."

[Galithar]

I would stipulate the reaction should be made when the attack is declared, before any dice are rolled. This should not be an ability that allows you to react to something you know will hit even if you do want to buff it. Otherwise it acts like a luck reroll when you get hit, plus disadvantage to all other attacks. And it gets even worse if you actually mean to have them reroll the attack.
By that I mean the bad guy rolls a 16 and you know that will hit, don't let them then use Patient Defense and roll another d20 to make it at disadvantage. And DEFINITELY don't reroll the first 16.

It should go more like this.
DM:Goblin 1 is going to attack Joe
Joe: I use my reaction to spend a Ki point and use patient defense to take the Dodge action
DM: Rolls to hit at disadvantage for the Goblin

Edit: Credit to Naughty Tiger because he said the same thing I just used more words to do it haha

[Pex]

I'm playing a Kensei Monk with Tough feat and not having problems. Good versatility on offense and defense as I need. Ki coming back on a short rest is a big deal. The trick is knowing when to spend ki and when not. There's no rule of thumb but playing the game you'll figure out what is best for you.

[NaughtyTiger]

I'm playing a Kensei Monk with Tough feat and not having problems. Good versatility on offense and defense as I need. Ki coming back on a short rest is a big deal. The trick is knowing when to spend ki and when not. There's no rule of thumb but playing the game you'll figure out what is best for you.

this. i have seen (open hand) monks in play, and they don't have issues if they aren't playing tank.
level 2, even a dwarf has 35ft speed.
level 3, if you hit with flurry, you can auto-kill reactions and walk back.


IEdit: Credit to Naughty Tiger because he said the same thing I just used more words to do it haha

ah, but you said it with eloquence and the silver tongue of a story teller.

[Citan]

The Monk class can certainly be very defensive at higher levels with missile catching and proficiency in all saves, but in the first tier of play with limited Ki points, I find them to be very squishy. They're usually meant to be played as skimisher types rather than frontline combatants, but more often than not, they seem to be caught out in the open or in the back ranks of the enemy without enough speed to make it back to safety and with their d8 hit dice and mediocre AC, they're usually the first to get KO'ed.

Their Patient Defense ability is supposed to help mitigate their squishiness, but given the limited amount of ki early on and the fact that it competes with flurry of blows and martial arts for bonus action use, this does not work very well IMO especially since I think monks need all the help they can get offensively.

So I'm thinking about a house rule where monks would use Patient Defense as a Reaction rather than a bonus action. This would work like the shield spell where if you get hit, expend your reaction to take the Dodge action and the attacker would have to roll again. This benefit lasts until the end of the round. This solves the issue with competing with flurry and martial arts and also you only need to spend the ki on Patient Defense when you actually need it so your limited ki points can last longer.

What do you guys think? Too much?
Hi!

First, as others, I hope it won't sound too judgemental, but I'd say there is something troubling in how class fares that does not come from design. Maybe your players are playing too agressively, maybe there is just a definite lack of control/tank in party that forces them to be heated more than they'd like, or maybe the encounter design makes it a bad fit for them.

But it's the same kind of problem than with people complaining that their Barbarian's rage is ending early too often. The problem lies not in the class, it lies in the context.

In that regard, the change you suggest seems too powerful to me. It's basically a Shield (except better since you can also change a crit into a miss) for one Ki. Imagine an Eldircht Knight of level 5 in direct comparison. With a single short rest, Monk can have EK's cake (Shield) while still having largely enough resources to use other abilities.

On the other hand, making it affect just one attack would be a big nerf: Monk might as well just grab Defensive Duelist instead which does not consume any resource.

So if you really want to make a "quality of life houserule", I'd go for the middle ground someone suggested: gain the benefit of Dodge for the current turn: better than DD (you get better defense against Multiattack and potentially Readied attacks) but still lesser than Shield/Dodge (lasts full round).
As a consequence, i'd actually make it a dedicated ability that you get at the same time of the regular Patient Defense: that way, player can still go "full defense" when needed.


I played a long death Monk up to level 5 and I found that having mobile feat helped a lot but it was still hard to stay out of trouble. The temp HP from long death was very situational. Maybe I was playing too aggressively but I tell you, monks ranged damage is mediocre at best. He had a short bow (was human and didn't have long bow prof) so 1d6+4 at 4th level was pretty low damage. It was too tempting to go melee with either martial arts or flurry which didn't leave much for patient defense or step of wind to get out of trouble. I can't imagine how much worse it would have been if he didn't have mobile feat.

Since there were some questions, to clarify and somewhat amend how I would change the way patient defense works is: spend 1 ki point to take Dodge action as Reaction when you are successfully hit. This would cause the instigating hit to be rerolled due to disadvantage. As in the original ability you would be Dodging until the start of your next turn.
I really don't see where the trouble is with the shortbow, you're just dealing 1 less average than many other martials using a longbow, and nobody has ranged attack as bonus action when using a ranged weapon unless specific Crossbow Expert case.
In other words, you're totally in the expected power range for the level (it's not for nothing that people tell how important getting Extra Attack is ^^).

Also, if you really want to avoid trouble but still deal damage, use daggers/light hammers instead. Thrown attack with melee light weapon triggers bonus action of dual-wielding, so it's (1d6+4) + (1d6). As long as you retrieve weaponry at the end of the fight, and mix this tactic with regular simple thrown and bonus action on something else, should be good enough.

[Man_Over_Game]

Agreeing with Citan on this one. Monks are useful ONLY when Versatility is useful.

If you're fighting a horde of melee attacking goblins or orcs, a Paladin, Barbarian or Fighter is going to be doing much better than any Monk. However, if you're fighting a mix of archers, warriors and a mage, the Monk can easily slip past the front line after the initial engage and put a lot of threat on their back line. Nobody runs faster than a Monk, and that might be relevant when dealing with Difficult Terrain.

But if you aren't needing to use the Monk's mobility, their adaptability, or their high burst damage, then you're just looking at a fancy fighter with none of the armor.

[MaxWilson]

Agreeing with Citan on this one. Monks are useful ONLY when Versatility is useful.

If you're fighting a horde of melee attacking goblins or orcs, a Paladin, Barbarian or Fighter is going to be doing much better than any Monk. However, if you're fighting a mix of archers, warriors and a mage, the Monk can easily slip past the front line after the initial engage and put a lot of threat on their back line. Nobody runs faster than a Monk, and that might be relevant when dealing with Difficult Terrain.

But if you aren't needing to use the Monk's mobility, their adaptability, or their high burst damage, then you're just looking at a fancy fighter with none of the armor.

IMO monks shine brightest in situations where weapons and armor are conspicuous and frowned upon, so they make great diplomats and spies. A 11th level monk masquerading as a mousy little librarian, dressed plainly and holding nothing but a book, is still a deadly warrior--but an 11th level Sharpshooter Fighter dressed plainly and holding a book is, well, unarmed and almost useless unless he's got a hidden dagger. (He'll be AC 15ish and punching for something like 3x +4 to hit for 1 damage per hit.)

Eldritch Knights make great spies for similar reasons, since they are never truly unarmed unless you've already destroyed their bonded weapons.


I played a long death Monk up to level 5 and I found that having mobile feat helped a lot but it was still hard to stay out of trouble. The temp HP from long death was very situational. Maybe I was playing too aggressively but I tell you, monks ranged damage is mediocre at best. He had a short bow (was human and didn't have long bow prof) so 1d6+4 at 4th level was pretty low damage. It was too tempting to go melee with either martial arts or flurry which didn't leave much for patient defense or step of wind to get out of trouble. I can't imagine how much worse it would have been if he didn't have mobile feat.


The Monk class can certainly be very defensive at higher levels with missile catching and proficiency in all saves, but in the first tier of play with limited Ki points, I find them to be very squishy. They're usually meant to be played as skimisher types rather than frontline combatants, but more often than not, they seem to be caught out in the open or in the back ranks of the enemy without enough speed to make it back to safety and with their d8 hit dice and mediocre AC, they're usually the first to get KO'ed.

I understand the temptation, but if you're a monk who gives in to temptation and attempts to tank, and then you wind up being the first one to get KO'ed, well, you know who to blame, right? Someone's going to be the first to get KO'ed, and at least in this case we all know it is "someone who did something he knew he shouldn't have."

BTW if you do want to be a low-level monk who tanks, I recommend going Shadow Monk as a human with the Alert feat. Darkness + Alert = disadvantage to enemy attacks, but you've still got your bonus action free for Martial Arts or whatnot. I had a blind Shadow Monk PC at my table who used Darkness + Alert to compensate for her blindness, turning a weakness into a strength. It was pretty awesome.

[CorporateSlave]

Stillness of Mind, however, should indeed be a reaction. What good is the ability to spend your reaction to overcome fear or charm, if the fear or charm effect (like Hypnotic Pattern or Fear) is preventing you from spending your actions in the first place?

This makes me wonder if there is an official ruling on this in regards to the "specific trumps general" philosophy of 5e. Would Stillness of Mind as a specific Monk ability take precedence over the general effect of the Fear spell (must use action to Dash) or Hypnotic Pattern (Incapacitated, therefore cannot use Actions or Reactions) as they generally apply to everyone? Or would the specific effect of the Fear spell (must use action to Dash) take precedence over the general effects of the Frightened condition (which places few limits on Actions)?

Personally, if I was the DM I would probably rule that the Monk ability takes precedence in these cases if for no better reason than Stillness of Mind is a 7th level ability, vs two 3rd level spells accessible at 5th level for a Wizard. I would have little problem giving the edge to the 7th level class ability as the "specific" trumping the "general" in the spell descriptions in these cases. (perhaps in a similar way that 7th level Evasion trumps the wording of the consequences of a Dex save vs 3rd level Fireball - although certainly this is more clear cut given the description).

And to the OP, I got some of the best use ever out of Patient Defense at levels 3 - 4. Held off large groups of low level adds for 3-4 rounds to allow the rest of the party to finish the other enemies off...sometimes without even taking a hit. Patient Defense dodge can be big; +5 effective AC and "Crit Insurance" for 1 Ki? I agree with the others here who say the issue probably isn't the game mechanics as much as how they are being put to use in specific combats in your campaign.

[Man_Over_Game]

BTW if you do want to be a low-level monk who tanks, I recommend going Shadow Monk as a human with the Alert feat. Darkness + Alert = disadvantage to enemy attacks, but you've still got your bonus action free for Martial Arts or whatnot. I had a blind Shadow Monk PC at my table who used Darkness + Alert to compensate for her blindness, turning a weakness into a strength. It was pretty awesome.

That is a great idea. Solid find!

[MaxWilson]

That is a great idea. Solid find!

Just keep in mind that you won't get any opportunity attacks, because opportunity attacks require seeing your target.

[Vogie]

What you're talking about is a feature, not a bug. That's all part of the power of it.

Early on, most of your Ki points will be either Step of the Wind or Patient defense to keep you alive, as you are bouncing in and out of melee range. It's a meaningful choice you make, offense vs defense.

Once you have more than a handful of ki points, then you have more options to nova. Are you using Stunning Strike on Both hits this turn, or just using one? Are you following up with a flurry, or disengaging? Or should you use the BA dodge because you're staying in place? Will using this ASI for higher Dex (damage & AC) or higher Wis (AC & DC), or grabbing the Mobile Feat?

Rogues have a similar decision chain. Do I use a Bonus action attack to have a second attempt to sneak attack with my other dagger/hand crossbow? Or do I use the cunning action to scoot out of the way? At higher levels when you've got that higher to-hit bonus, you'll get more use out of the Cunning action as you use single-shot weapons.

[Tzun]

I'm playing a Kensei Monk with Tough feat and not having problems. Good versatility on offense and defense as I need. Ki coming back on a short rest is a big deal. The trick is knowing when to spend ki and when not. There's no rule of thumb but playing the game you'll figure out what is best for you.
I think Kensei along with sun soul are one of the better traditions for ranged damage for monks.


...

I really don't see where the trouble is with the shortbow, you're just dealing 1 less average than many other martials using a longbow, and nobody has ranged attack as bonus action when using a ranged weapon unless specific Crossbow Expert case.
In other words, you're totally in the expected power range for the level (it's not for nothing that people tell how important getting Extra Attack is ^^).

Also, if you really want to avoid trouble but still deal damage, use daggers/light hammers instead. Thrown attack with melee light weapon triggers bonus action of dual-wielding, so it's (1d6+4) + (1d6). As long as you retrieve weaponry at the end of the fight, and mix this tactic with regular simple thrown and bonus action on something else, should be good enough.
At least in the early game (levels 1 - 4) I feel their range damage is sub par compared to other martial classes. If you look at a fighter and ranger they can have archery fighting style which is a nice boost to accuracy and maybe even sharpshooter. Even rogues are going to be better with sneak attack. This makes range style subpar compared to melee IMO, but when they get in melee they need to hit and run or have better defense, but their defense is pretty lackluster because of mediocre hd and AC. They can spend a ki to help with that but then you sacrifice your potential damage which is pretty average to begin with. But it seems like this is not how most people see the situation so maybe I need to rework my strategy and/or thinking on this.

[Man_Over_Game]

At least in the early game (levels 1 - 4) I feel their range damage is sub par compared to other martial classes. If you look at a fighter and ranger they can have archery fighting style which is a nice boost to accuracy and maybe even sharpshooter. Even rogues are going to be better with sneak attack. This makes range style subpar compared to melee IMO, but when they get in melee they need to hit and run or have better defense, but their defense is pretty lackluster because of mediocre hd and AC. They can spend a ki to help with that but then you sacrifice your potential damage which is pretty average to begin with. But it seems like this is not how most people see the situation so maybe I need to rework my strategy and/or thinking on this.

The Archery Fighting Style provides +2 to hit. The Kensei's Bonus Action shot deals an additional 2.5 average damage.

The Archery Fighting Style was likely designed to counter the fact that all creatures count as 1/2 Cover (which is a -2 to hit), however the Kensei is less impacted by Cover due to their higher movement speed, bonus action dash/disengage, and their ability to run across water/walls.

But the main thing is, you can't think of the Kensei as an archer. You can't think of it as a melee warrior.

You have to think of it as strictly both. It's worse at archery than a specialized archers, and it's worse at melee than specialized warriors, but it excels in melee compared to an archer and it excels at range compared to a warrior. You gotta learn what the Kensei can uniquely do.

Sometimes, that means taking a shot, to hear that the DM says the target is almost dead, before deciding to run up and Flurry of Blows the thing rather than getting just the BA +2.5 damage on the shot. Sometimes it means flanking around the enemy team, pelting them with shots while you stay out of range with your 35+ speed, only to dash up and punch the lights out of their mage when they stop paying attention to you.

You can dodge as a bonus action, you can shoot arrows, you can equip a shield in melee combat as needed, you move further than anyone, you can barrage the enemy in 4 attacks when they can only pull off half as many. You are a ranged combatant when the enemy doesn't want you to be one, and you're a melee combatant every other time.

[MaxWilson]

You can dodge as a bonus action, you can shoot arrows, you can equip a shield in melee combat as needed, you move further than anyone, you can barrage the enemy in 4 attacks when they can only pull off half as many. You are a ranged combatant when the enemy doesn't want you to be one, and you're a melee combatant every other time.

You can shoot arrows, you can catch arrows even after they've already "hit" you, you can lie prone to avoid counterfire but still move quickly enough to stay out of melee... even a bog-standard Wood Elf Shadow Monk is surprisingly good at winning archery duels, IME. They aren't high-damage archers, but archers aren't high-damage against them so they win via attrition.

At least, that's true up through 10th level or so. At 11th level when everybody starts getting third attacks and tier 3 cantrip scaling, the Shadow Monk's archery starts to feel a bit more anemic. But this thread is about low-level monks.

[djreynolds]

Off topic....

I wonder what the KI cost would be if one had the shield spell?
rush of the gale spirits(gust of wind) is worth 2KI
shatter is 3KI
fireball and fly and gaseous form are 4KI

IMO, for a monk to get a 20 AC could literally be 16th or 20th level, that is a long ways off. I like the idea and the other idea of upping the cost to 2ki

At around 5th level, its possible for a fighter to have a 21AC, with full plate, shield, and defensive style. And an EK can toss in the shield spell and the blur spell

But there strength of patient defense is that it is a bonus action and you can use it beforehand, and you still have your reaction. And you are going to get this back on a short rest. Patient defense isn't bad

Also, if you are playing a monk and for some odd reason do not have at least a short bow or long bow, I hope it has to do with concept. Otherwise you are not getting what a skirmisher does in game or IRL, you are basically the hounds forcing the prey to the hunters. It your job and the rangers job to force the enemy into the fighter or barbarian or paladin. Having a short bow basically allows you with your big speed to hit anyone on the battlefield. And doing so forces the enemy to take cover.

Now sometimes a monk has to tank, when you do... you have patient defense. And you still have your reaction

[Tzun]

....

But there strength of patient defense is that it is a bonus action and you can use it beforehand, and you still have your reaction. And you are going to get this back on a short rest. Patient defense isn't bad

Also, if you are playing a monk and for some odd reason do not have at least a short bow or long bow, I hope it has to do with concept. Otherwise you are not getting what a skirmisher does in game or IRL, you are basically the hounds forcing the prey to the hunters. It your job and the rangers job to force the enemy into the fighter or barbarian or paladin. Having a short bow basically allows you with your big speed to hit anyone on the battlefield. And doing so forces the enemy to take cover.

Now sometimes a monk has to tank, when you do... you have patient defense. And you still have your reaction
That's true but I don't see the Monk using their reaction very much anyway (at least before the arrow catching ability and even then it's circumstantial). Making patient defense a bonus action just makes it so that it's competing with the one way to improve your already very mediocre offense. And if you're using your reaction for OA, well the monster is doing the Monk a huge favor because it's probably the Monk that would have wanted to get out of there in the first place ;)

IMO, times when a Monk would be using a bow should be circumstantial because your damage is subpar not only compared to your own melee damage but to most other martial classes range damage. I see the Monk play style as hit and run, you get in hit hard then get out. The problem is that the way their abilities are structured, you can either get in and get out, or you can hit hard, but you can't do both. I don't know maybe they need to make step of the wind a Reaction, lol.

[CorporateSlave]

That's true but I don't see the Monk using their reaction very much anyway (at least before the arrow catching ability and even then it's circumstantial). Making patient defense a bonus action just makes it so that it's competing with the one way to improve your already very mediocre offense. And if you're using your reaction for OA, well the monster is doing the Monk a huge favor because it's probably the Monk that would have wanted to get out of there in the first place ;)

IMO, times when a Monk would be using a bow should be circumstantial because your damage is subpar not only compared to your own melee damage but to most other martial classes range damage. I see the Monk play style as hit and run, you get in hit hard then get out. The problem is that the way their abilities are structured, you can either get in and get out, or you can hit hard, but you can't do both. I don't know maybe they need to make step of the wind a Reaction, lol.

First of all, it's your house, if you want to house rule it then you go right ahead!

Most classes don't use their Reaction very much, particularly without a Feat or two to give it some additional uses. On the surface I fully agree that Monks routinely have to make a "Devil's Choice" when it comes to their Bonus Action...but I don't see that as making any of those Bonus Action abilities underpowered. Making Patient Defense a Reaction would certainly be a significant power and efficiency boost. Not having to spend your Bonus Action plus only spending the Patient Defense Ki when you are actually being attacked, two big wins for the Monk. Having played a Monk through level 10, I just don't think the low level Monk needs any power or efficiency boost.

Some classes just have a lot of Bonus Action decisions to make; a Rogue's Cunning Action is amazing, but certainly presents an issue when it comes to the action economy...especially since most Rogue sub-classes have even more and cool uses of Bonus Action. I'm sure any Ranger will tell you it's disappointing they can't Hunter's Mark (case or move) and make an off-hand attack on the same turn. The class itself (starting equipment) pushes you towards dual wielding, and Hunter's Mark is the signature Ranger combat spell...yet the two are not very compatible and inefficient together. But if you think that's the issue with the PBH Ranger, well... In any case, Monk's are just one of those classes. They have a lot of great Bonus Action (and Reaction for that matter) abilities. But just the one each per round.

I think you're right that a Monk is generally a "hit and run" combat play style; but that doesn't always mean get in, hit stuff, then get out all in one turn. It might...say if you boost the crap out of your movement with Wood Elf and Mobile, especially at later levels and/or with magic items/spells that increase movement (Boots of Speed) or make you harder to hit (Cloak of Displacement) or both (someone casts Haste spell on you). But it might be more like, get past the melee "line" to the archers/casters, take them out (or just out of the mix for a while via Stunning Strike) over a couple of turns, then break back through the line to your allies before their buddies can isolate and hammer you. The concept of a one turn "in-smash-out" is actually very challenging to pull off. Also, remember that like every plan...even with all the positioning, magic support, and class features on your side it still might not work every time you try it. That's not a flaw, that's the way it goes. Sometimes the dice just get you.

All of this is also somewhat based on circumstances. Some combat may not feature any casters or raged enemies in the first place! Or they may be too far away even for a Monk to quickly reach (or flying!). One of the Monk's main strengths (at least in my view) is their versatility. Don't get married to one play style just because the PHB says Monk's are get in and get out. The class gives you a lot of options to choose from, but yeah, you do have to choose.

I think you will also find that as you progress in levels, new options begin to develop. (Two attacks with a Stunning Strike landed is "hitting hard" in many ways more so than landing an extra attack or two) Just always remember there is more to a Monk than just brute force*!

*you know, "if it isn't working then you aren't using enough."

[Citan]

That's true but I don't see the Monk using their reaction very much anyway (at least before the arrow catching ability and even then it's circumstantial). Making patient defense a bonus action just makes it so that it's competing with the one way to improve your already very mediocre offense. And if you're using your reaction for OA, well the monster is doing the Monk a huge favor because it's probably the Monk that would have wanted to get out of there in the first place ;)

IMO, times when a Monk would be using a bow should be circumstantial because your damage is subpar not only compared to your own melee damage but to most other martial classes range damage. I see the Monk play style as hit and run, you get in hit hard then get out. The problem is that the way their abilities are structured, you can either get in and get out, or you can hit hard, but you can't do both. I don't know maybe they need to make step of the wind a Reaction, lol.
IMO that's perfectly fair.
After all, Monk is the only one that can get 2 attacks from level 2 onwards without having to limit to specific choice of weapons or taking a feat.
I wouldn't call that "very mediocre offense".

It's also the only one that can get decent AC whatever kind of situation he's in, even in prison, and can boost that further on a short-rest basis.
I wouldn't call that "very mediocre defense" either. :)

Finally, if you feel like Monk players don't have enough chance to use arrow-catching, then maybe there is just an unbalance in enemy composition, or maybe they just go/stay in melee too often. Monk can throw Javelins or light hammers, and should do so as his primary way of attacking whenever he feels going into melee may be life-threatening (which is mostly always before level 4 unless you rolled stats good ^^).

Considering how powerful Monk get from level 5 onwards, I feel suffering a bit more than others at start is a perfectly acceptable trade-off. Personal opinion of course. :)

[blackjack50]

I've seen Monk's in play and I think of you are getting caught horribly out of position and going down you aren't using your resources correctly. If you need patient defense to stay alive you need to be 'patient'. Meaning let the fight take a little longer and use openings to make your flurry strikes. Letting it be used on a reaction just let's them have better offense, and better defense.

I'm a huge fan of the Monk and at risk of sounding rude if you struggle with playing them there is something wrong. Either with encounter difficulty, your build, or your usage of resources. They are a class of tactics in my opinion. You're not a Barbarian who just goes in swinging. You need to use your extra speed (maybe even supplement it with things like Mobile) to get to the good spots and then when you're in the clear burst some Ki damage.

Wait until the enemy is engaged with your melee line (use your first round for ranged attacks if needed) then move in once most combatants would risk OA to come at you. Get next to 1 or 2 enemies and Nova your Ki. Flurry of Blows with 4 stunning strikes has had my level 5 Monk player stun the entire encounter in one turn. Now that was a full Nova, but he simply requested the party let him catch his breath (in character request for short rest) and then moved on.

You don't need to Nova like that, but when you DO it can be incredibly effective. As a Monk you don't need to be to one dealing damage. Setting up others for dealing damage is just as good. Move in, stunning Strike one person and walk away. Ki point step of the wind of patient defense if you really need to get out of Dodge. If you don't THEN you make that unarmed strike before backing up.


Tl;DR I don't think the Monk needs a change like this. It increases their power where I don't see it as needed.

I have to agree. I’m playing my first official campaign as a monk. I saw many people suggest to not do them as the first go. But they are very simple. My first round of combat “my flight had a stopover on the brain slug planet.” I can’t rememher the creature, but it nearly killed me. After that? I found that letting another player get involved in combat helps. A skirmish character is absolutely the best way to phrase it. Move in and hit a target fast and hard and then leave.

[blackjack50]

That's true but I don't see the Monk using their reaction very much anyway (at least before the arrow catching ability and even then it's circumstantial). Making patient defense a bonus action just makes it so that it's competing with the one way to improve your already very mediocre offense. And if you're using your reaction for OA, well the monster is doing the Monk a huge favor because it's probably the Monk that would have wanted to get out of there in the first place ;)

IMO, times when a Monk would be using a bow should be circumstantial because your damage is subpar not only compared to your own melee damage but to most other martial classes range damage. I see the Monk play style as hit and run, you get in hit hard then get out. The problem is that the way their abilities are structured, you can either get in and get out, or you can hit hard, but you can't do both. I don't know maybe they need to make step of the wind a Reaction, lol.

I think that is the point for sure. They don’t want you to do both. And that makes sense. If you get in to melee range, that is a risk. That even mimics reality. Look at it like point fighting in karate. You want to come in and take the risk of getting hit. Then you want to leave. Timing is everything. It works well in conjunction with a tank player (using them as your meat shield).

[MaxWilson]

It's worth mentioning in passing that even if you don't have the Mobile feat--even if you're not a monk at all--it can be sometimes be better to eat an opportunity attack than a full Multiattack sequence, if you're fast enough that the monster won't be able to catch up without Dashing and Attack you, and if there isn't another PC they could attack instead.

Normally you have to combine this with a good ranged attack just in case the monster opts not to Dash after you--you don't want a standoff where neither you nor the monster is willing to chase the other.

But every monk has a good ranged attack and good movement. And you also have a good response available if the enemy (e.g. a hill giant) switches to its secondary, weaker attack (throwing rocks) and attempts an archery duel, because you can weaken that attack even more with your reaction.

[sophontteks]

Monks have the HP and defenses to get hit a round. They can get in, hit hard, and get out next round.

It sounds like the OP is looking for the drunken fist monk though. Their flurry of blows gives +10 movement and disengage for free.

[djreynolds]

The shield spell, uncanny dodge, defensive duelist, parry maneuver, absorb elements are all reaction (even protection style)

So you can see the discussions main theme, why are monks different... maybe patient defense should be a reaction. And 1KI is probably equivalent to a 1st level spell

But lets look at this another way, casting blur is an action but it is level 2 spell that can last 1 minute, though it is concentration

I honestly don't see why you could not allow patient defense as a reaction, the reality is using patient defense as a bonus action actually forces a monk to save on blowing KI.

[NaughtyTiger]

The shield spell, uncanny dodge, defensive duelist, parry maneuver, absorb elements are all reaction (even protection style)

So you can see the discussions main theme, why are monks different... maybe patient defense should be a reaction. And 1KI is probably equivalent to a 1st level spell

But lets look at this another way, casting blur is an action but it is level 2 spell that can last 1 minute, though it is concentration

I honestly don't see why you could not allow patient defense as a reaction, the reality is using patient defense as a bonus action actually forces a monk to save on blowing KI.

2 sorc points = level 1 spell.
sorc points are similar to Ki (1 per level)
Ki recharge per short rest.
monk also gets martial abilities (so is prolly a 1/3 caster)
4E monk - level 1 spell is 2 Ki
--- so I disagree that 1Ki is level 1 spell.

Protection requires a fighting style, shield, and adjacent ally
Defensive duelist requires a whole feat
uncanny dodge replaces extra attack

the reality is that patient defense as bonus action forces a monk to trade off between offense and defense

[Galithar]

The shield spell, uncanny dodge, defensive duelist, parry maneuver, absorb elements are all reaction (even protection style)

So you can see the discussions main theme, why are monks different... maybe patient defense should be a reaction. And 1KI is probably equivalent to a 1st level spell

But lets look at this another way, casting blur is an action but it is level 2 spell that can last 1 minute, though it is concentration

I honestly don't see why you could not allow patient defense as a reaction, the reality is using patient defense as a bonus action actually forces a monk to save on blowing KI.

Most of those abilities listed as reactions only apply to a single enemy attack, not a full round or even full multiattack. Please correct me on any that apply to multiple attacks and/or the full round.

Shield stands out as the only one I know off the top of my head that is full round. It is compensated by being accessible to classes that are generally easier to hit, and fueled by a lower volume long rest resource versus the Monk's short rest Ki.

That being said a modification of the ability to impose disadvantage to a single attack sounds reasonable. Or used as a bonus action on your turn to actually take a full Dodge Action. Make the decision between using it now, or having to pay the same cost for less benefit if I wait until I HAVE to have it.

Also to note I'm fully opposed to any change in this ability as the Monk in my game (Kensei level 5) has had no problems with knowing when to use this versus when he can take his unarmed strike or flurry.

[NaughtyTiger]

Shield stands out as the only one I know off the top of my head that is full round.
absorb elements as well.

[Galithar]

absorb elements as well.

So the same boat as Shield. It's based on a long rest resource that is generally available to the already squishy characters.

I think a better solution to the low level squishy Monk is to not change any abilities, but rather just give them a d10 hit die. I've always thought the d8 on a fully martial character to be off. They shouldn't be taking every hit, but they SHOULD be able to take some. I think giving them a reactionary dodge is going to give you one of to problems. That player of just going to complain about constantly running out of Ki because now they are bonus action dashing/flurrying AND taking the Dodge action every time they get attacked. Or at high levels everything is constantly attacking then at disadvantage and they feel more powerful as tanks then intended.

[Man_Over_Game]

So the same boat as Shield. It's based on a long rest resource that is generally available to the already squishy characters.

I think a better solution to the low level squishy Monk is to not change any abilities, but rather just give them a d10 hit die. I've always thought the d8 on a fully martial character to be off. They shouldn't be taking every hit, but they SHOULD be able to take some. I think giving them a reactionary dodge is going to give you one of to problems. That player of just going to complain about constantly running out of Ki because more they are bonus action dashing/flurrying AND taking the Dodge action every time they get attacked. Or at high levels everything is constantly attacking then at disadvantage and they feel more powerful as tanks then intended.

That's not a terrible solution. I don't think it's needed, as the Monk has a plethora of ways of dealing with Saving Throws, when other classes don't, but the effective +1 HP per level should be enough to calm any fears that the Monk lacks defenses.

[Galithar]

That's not a terrible solution. I don't think it's needed, as the Monk has a plethora of ways of dealing with Saving Throws, when other classes don't, but the effective +1 HP per level should be enough to calm any fears that the Monk lacks defenses.

I want it to have a d10 because even the half casters get that. The other d8s are Warlock (a short rest full caster) and the Rogue (ranged/sneaky but I can see the argument for the classes being of similar powerstyles) and I just don't feel that a combat oriented martial adept should have lower hit die then a Ranger!

[djreynolds]

Most of those abilities listed as reactions only apply to a single enemy attack, not a full round or even full multiattack. Please correct me on any that apply to multiple attacks and/or the full round.

Shield stands out as the only one I know off the top of my head that is full round. It is compensated by being accessible to classes that are generally easier to hit, and fueled by a lower volume long rest resource versus the Monk's short rest Ki.

That being said a modification of the ability to impose disadvantage to a single attack sounds reasonable. Or used as a bonus action on your turn to actually take a full Dodge Action. Make the decision between using it now, or having to pay the same cost for less benefit if I wait until I HAVE to have it.

Also to note I'm fully opposed to any change in this ability as the Monk in my game (Kensei level 5) has had no problems with knowing when to use this versus when he can take his unarmed strike or flurry.

Galithar has a good point, This is a good discussion, we forget that when game is designed that multiclassing is not "expected" to be done and neither are feats.

But using patient defense as a bonus action will make players save on KI points.

If patient defense was a reaction, honestly you could blow through all your KI point in round..

So being able to dodge as a BA, might be actually fair between standard classes such as a wizard and the shield spell, or a battlemaster's parry

Also you know you are going to dodge, which is very powerful. A wizard might cast shield as his reaction and he cannot counterspell, the monk knows when dodges he cannot use FoB

But in defense of the OP, I actually never see patient defense used, 90% of the monks I DM, are using FOB regardless of the danger and if they survive will end up taking the mobile feat. Patient defense as a reaction would at least get some use

[Tzun]

Galithar has a good point, This is a good discussion, we forget that when game is designed that multiclassing is not "expected" to be done and neither are feats.

But using patient defense as a bonus action will make players save on KI points.

If patient defense was a reaction, honestly you could blow through all your KI point in round..

So being able to dodge as a BA, might be actually fair between standard classes such as a wizard and the shield spell, or a battlemaster's parry

Also you know you are going to dodge, which is very powerful. A wizard might cast shield as his reaction and he cannot counterspell, the monk knows when dodges he cannot use FoB

But in defense of the OP, I actually never see patient defense used, 90% of the monks I DM, are using FOB regardless of the danger and if they survive will end up taking the mobile feat. Patient defense as a reaction would at least get some use
My intent for making Patient Defense a Reaction was to save ki because you use it only when necessary, but I see your point that if you use it with flurry of blows you'll burn through your ki very quickly. However, I would counter that if I used my reaction on Patient Defense, I would just use martial arts bonus attack without the flurry. With the bonus action attack, I would say the monk's offense is pretty good. Without it, it's pretty subpar compared to other martials (fighting styles, rage, smites, etc). So my strategy would be, if I'm not attacked, I could use a ki to flurry giving me very good offense or just save my ki. If I'm attacked and have to use a ki on defense, then I would definitely just go with martial arts bonus attack.

[djreynolds]

It definitely not game breaking

[Lunali]

Example: Dragons fear aura. You become immune for 24 hours if you succeeded on your saving throw. By using Stillness of Mind to break it you used your action to break the effect without making the saving throw and as such are still not immune to bring affected next turn. So you gain just a little bit less even when it is usable.

You also become immune if the effect ends for any reason.

[ThePlanarDM]

Also important here is not just the mechanical aspect of how patient defense works, but how it reflects a narrative element of what we think monks should be doing and are able to do. The monk, in the Heat of battle, shifting his weight onto his back foot and taking a defensive stance, waiting for enemies to come at him, seems like something that should be chosen on his turn or her turn. Turning it into a reaction jumbles it together with the monks other ability, catching arrows, and dilutes the overall narrative flavor of the class.

[MrStabby]

The monk class has some issues but I don't think this is one of them. At low levels the monk has a pretty good damage output - being able to rattle off three attacks per turn is good. Even unarmoured defence is good when the party is not able to buy or has not yet found expensive heavy armour.

Adding to monks power at this level seems a bit risky.

I also don't buy the comparison with shield. Shield is awesome. Shield is a stand out great spell. Complaining that one part of one ability is not as efficient as one of the best spells in the game is just greedy. Also classes and abilities are different. It is like getting to level five and thinking "Ok, so effects that have controlling riders are not free in terms of actions. Grapple sacrifices an attack, ensnaring strike and the smite spells all require a bonus action... obviously, by comparison, stunning strike should require a bonus action as well.

Some classes are better than others at some things. That's kind of the point of different classes. A low level monk stands out through mobility, a low level paladin through ability to do burst damage and a barbarian through tankyness. To complain you can't tank like a barbarian is only fair if the barbarian can also match the monks mobility. To bemoan lack of damage compared to a paladin is similar.

I do get that the ability isn't often used. I actually have some sympathy with that. The monk core is pretty poorly balanced with respect to uses of Ki. Some abilities are just more attractive than others. Just making stuff better on a class that is really solid at those levels is not the way to go.

I also get that at low levels Ki feels really short and burning a Ki point hurts. Just compare it to an enemy making a save on one of a casters four spell slots for the day - that should make you feel a bit better.

[stoutstien]

Monks are is a strange place mostly due to they way they shift roles as they gain new features. Wizards do more wizardry but monks completely change roles.
They go from a mobile striker, to control (arguably the best at it), and as they gain upper level features they become a tough tank.
I do agree some of the kids costs are off especially with the subclasses that don't get free add for features that are used alot like on like open fist or drunken

[Sahe]

I could see changing the Ki Features to "Stances".

Cost Ki to activate, require concentration and last one minute or until another stance is activated.

Change Ki to a long rest resource for balance and compensate for longer duration.

[NaughtyTiger]

I could see changing the Ki Features to "Stances".

Cost Ki to activate, require concentration and last one minute or until another stance is activated.

Change Ki to a long rest resource for balance and compensate for longer duration.

I do like this mechanic, I might rig something with my DM for his next campaign. (I like 4E monk, so I don't know how/if Fangs or water whip would work with stances)