The Dark One or Redcloak?

[Rrmcklin]

Since we've been told Thor's plan, chances are they won't be how the Snarl situation is actually resolved. In which case, which side do you think is more likely to not budge, the Dark One, or Redcloak himself?

[Peelee]

Since we've been told Thor's plan, chances are they won't be how the Snarl situation is actually resolved. In which case, which side do you think is more likely to not budge, the Dark One, or Redcloak himself?

I think Reddie won't give in, and he won't get spells the next time he asks.

[thelivingmonkey]

Personally I think they will both agree, but some other external factor will create an obstacle.

Probably wrong but that's my two cents lol

[Mariele]

I'm inclined to say Redcloak, just because we know he has to keep convincing himself the Plan is worth it to make up for his actions... and if someone tells him, hey, the Plan actually isn't worth it, I don't think he'd be willing to give in, no matter how persuasive the argument.
He did kill his little brother, the most important person in his life, to keep the Plan going, after all.

From what we've seen, the Dark One seems pretty stubborn himself. I don't think he's any more likely to believe the arguments--it's awfully convenient that the Dark One will die when the world gets unmade if he doesn't follow their plan, that sort of thinking. But I think it's slightly more likely that the Dark One will be the one to accept. We've spent so much time building up Redcloak's dedication to the Plan that I'm honestly expecting him to have some sort of a breakdown and try to finish it at any cost, even if it means going against the Dark One's wishes. Maybe Jirix and/or some sort of appearance of Right-Eye will help turn the tide. But I'm just spitballing here.

[Goblin_Priest]

Since we've been told Thor's plan, chances are they won't be how the Snarl situation is actually resolved. In which case, which side do you think is more likely to not budge, the Dark One, or Redcloak himself?

If the NewPlan required lvl 9 purple quiddity divine magic, then it requires Redcloak to work. No one else can do it, mortal or otherwise. Redcloak is the single individual in all of existence who can perform this feat.

It does raise the question of:


Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

Can Redcloak use a lvl 9 spell slot to violate the Plan without the Dark One's consent? Or would he only lose his cleric powers after the fact?

[Fyraltari]

If the NewPlan required lvl 9 purple quiddity divine magic, then it requires Redcloak to work. No one else can do it, mortal or otherwise. Redcloak is the single individual in all of existence who can perform this feat.
That's not quite what Thor said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html), he said that all that is needed is a one-drop of violet quiddity and that one 9-th level spell slot would be enough. Working with Redcloak is their plan because they can't reach the Dark One, but if they could that would be the plan.

[hroþila]

I have no idea. I could see Redcloak finally seeing the light after the true nature of the Dark One is revealed to him, and I could also see the Dark One being confirmed as a more or less reasonable guy but Redcloak refusing to cooperate as part of his broader refusal of redemption (think Sauron at the end of the First Age: there was a moment when everything hung in the balance and repentance was a serious possibility, but ultimately he couldn't bear to face justice or admit he was wrong, so he rejected that possibility and fell even further instead).

[Morty]

At the end of the day, we know extremely little about the Dark One. Our only source of information is Redcloak, who is not a reliable source for a variety of reasons. He clearly approves of what Redcloak is doing enough to still grant him spells, but that's about it.

I also suspect that by the time Durkon could actually appeal to Redcloak the way Thor told him to, there will have been more revelations and the situation will have changed further. So Thor's plan will indeed likely not work the way he expect it to, but not necessarily because TDO or Redcloak will say "no". After all, the gods seem to have no clue about the world in the rifts and Thor didn't say anything about why the Dark One became a god.

[KrankenWagon]

I think given Redcloak's previous embraces of sunk-cost fallacy, he's going to be very hesitant to switch horses in the middle of the race, especially when the finish line is in sight.

[Goblin_Priest]

That's not quite what Thor said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html), he said that all that is needed is a one-drop of violet quiddity and that one 9-th level spell slot would be enough. Working with Redcloak is their plan because they can't reach the Dark One, but if they could that would be the plan.

"We need him to channel his god's purple quiddity into the process of closing the rifts." The following statement, in my eyes, elaborates the means in which this can be achieved, rather than present alternatives.

I was under the impression that mortals needed to build the gates, that's how the previous ones were made, but I'm not sure how to interpret the "we'll handle the rest" statement.

[Peelee]

"We need him to channel his god's purple quiddity into the process of closing the rifts." The following statement, in my eyes, elaborates the means in which this can be achieved, rather than present alternatives.

Seems like he's saying "since TDO is incommunicado, we'll need to work through his intermediary."

[Fyraltari]

"We need him to channel his god's purple quiddity into the process of closing the rifts." The following statement, in my eyes, elaborates the means in which this can be achieved, rather than present alternatives.
Yes, that is the way redcloak can help, because Thor already established that they can't get the Dark One to help. Not because it's impossible for him to, but because neither the gods nor Durkon can reach him.


I was under the impression that mortals needed to build the rifts, that's how the previous ones were made, but I'm not sure how to interpret the "we'll handle the rest" statement.
You mean the Gates, right? The Rifts are made by the Snarl. Why would you assume the mortals are needed to make those? The Gods did not make them because they already made the world and they know that the Gates made by the Order of the Scribble can't hold anyway because they're three colored at best. Thor's statement is pretty clear, as soon as Redcloak gives them acces to a fourth quiddity the gods can handle the rest: patching up the Rifts.

[factotum]

Thor said that all they needed was the power of one ninth level spell. I don't think it's specified that the power has to be given willingly, so an Implosion targeted at a member of the Order may well be sufficient for the Gods to do what the need!

[Kish]

I think most likely both Redcloak and the Dark One will be, separately, resistant to the proposal.

I think there is no chance whatsoever it will turn out to be "actually, just trick him into casting a ninth-level spell, we don't need his cooperation."

[thereaper]

Personally, I don't think the Dark One cares if he lives or dies. I don't think he plans to try and negotiate concessions at all. I think he wants to release the Snarl on the Outer Planes and watch it destroy everything as revenge against the other gods.

[Goblin_Priest]

You mean the Gates, right? The Rifts are made by the Snarl. Why would you assume the mortals are needed to make those? The Gods did not make them because they already made the world and they know that the Gates made by the Order of the Scribble can't hold anyway because they're three colored at best. Thor's statement is pretty clear, as soon as Redcloak gives them acces to a fourth quiddity the gods can handle the rest: patching up the Rifts.

Yes, I meant that.

Why would they not patch the rifts if they could? They let the Order of the Scribble do it. And the Order of the Scribble's work's undoing is the reason they now want to destroy the world.

They don't seem able, to me, to patch up an ongoing world, else they could just continuously patch them up until this Dark One plan pans out.


Thor said that all they needed was the power of one ninth level spell. I don't think it's specified that the power has to be given willingly, so an Implosion targeted at a member of the Order may well be sufficient for the Gods to do what the need!

I don't think that would work. Probably Redcloak would need to burn a 9th level spell slot as part of some ritual, and not just happen to cast a 9th level spell close to the Order.


I think most likely both Redcloak and the Dark One will be, separately, resistant to the proposal.

I think there is no chance whatsoever it will turn out to be "actually, just trick him into casting a ninth-level spell, we don't need his cooperation."

Agreed.

[Rrmcklin]

Goblin_Priest, the argument you seem to be making, which amounts to "Even though we need the Dark One's power to help, but the Dark One himself can't actually do it, it has to be channeled through a cleric." is a very strange one.

And agreed with everyone else, Thor made it very clear that the Dark One is flat out refusing to communicate with any of the other gods, so they can't talk to him directly. Hence, the need for cleric to cleric communication.

[Kish]

I agree with Goblin_Priest.

All other considerations aside, if the Dark One could simply personally help with the construction of the new and improved unbreakable Gates, no one casting a ninth level spell necessary, then "kill Redcloak, stop the Dark One's current plan cold, then tell him he can have goblinoid equality if he helps build the Gates when there's no other way he could get it" is an option I would be very surprised Thor didn't at least acknowledge.

[johnbragg]

I agree with Goblin_Priest.

All other considerations aside, if the Dark One could simply personally help with the construction of the new and improved unbreakable Gates, no one casting a ninth level spell necessary, then "kill Redcloak, stop the Dark One's current plan cold, then tell him he can have goblinoid equality if he helps build the Gates when there's no other way he could get it" is an option I would be very surprised Thor didn't at least acknowledge.

This may be a topic for a separate thread, but is Durkon "familiar" with Redcloak, for purposes of the Sending spell?

[zimmerwald1915]

This may be a topic for a separate thread, but is Durkon "familiar" with Redcloak, for purposes of the Sending spell?
Even if he isn't, Haley is, and can give Durkon better instructions wrt Redcloak than she gave the cleric of Loki in Greysky City wrt Durkon.

[johnbragg]

I agree with Goblin_Priest.

All other considerations aside, if the Dark One could simply personally help with the construction of the new and improved unbreakable Gates, no one casting a ninth level spell necessary, then "kill Redcloak, stop the Dark One's current plan cold, then tell him he can have goblinoid equality if he helps build the Gates when there's no other way he could get it" is an option I would be very surprised Thor didn't at least acknowledge.

How do you "tell him" anything when he isn't accepting contact?

The whole point of Thor's plan is that Durkon can talk to Redcloak (as an equal, even), who can talk to TDO. IF you just cast Epic Anti-Magic Shell A Mile Wide on a tarrasque, drop it on the last Gate area and have it eat Xykon and Redcloak, that doesn't open communications with TDO.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, I meant that.

Why would they not patch the rifts if they could? They let the Order of the Scribble do it. And the Order of the Scribble's work's undoing is the reason they now want to destroy the world.

They don't seem able, to me, to patch up an ongoing world, else they could just continuously patch them up until this Dark One plan pans out.
Because as Thor explained three-color barriers can’t hold a four-color Snarl. Until the quiddity reveal we had assumed that the Gates could theoretically hold the Snarl indefinitely when it actually would have gotten out anyway. There is no point in the Gods continuously fixing the Gates the Scribblers made.


I agree with Goblin_Priest.

All other considerations aside, if the Dark One could simply personally help with the construction of the new and improved unbreakable Gates, no one casting a ninth level spell necessary, then "kill Redcloak, stop the Dark One's current plan cold, then tell him he can have goblinoid equality if he helps build the Gates when there's no other way he could get it" is an option I would be very surprised Thor didn't at least acknowledge.
The problem is that if our heroes attack Redcloak they may end up dead. Or damage the Gate. Or the Snarl May break out the last Gate on its own in the time it takes another Goblin to get high level enough to try. And as Thor as said there is a great risk that the Dark One, and with him the violet essence, will not make it after that.

They can’t try to negotiate with him because he is killing their messengers and dropping by his place would almost certainly result in another Snarl.

[The Pilgrim]

The question proposed by the OP is interesting. However, it should be important to point out that, from a narrative perspective, the Main Villiain of this story is not the Dark One. It is Xykon. The Dark One isn't even the secondary villain, that's Redcloak's role as main henchman of Xykon. So the important thing for the story is not the interaction between The Dark One and Redcloak, but the interaction between Xykon and Redcloak, as Main Villian and Main Henchman.

As main henchmain, Redcloak is bound to betray his master. And, as we all know by now, he did in fact betray Xykon from the very begining, as the Plan doesn't works like he told Xykon it does (those who read SoD know it since SoD got released. Those who didn't, know it since Tsukiko's death scene). Redcloak is expecting to finish the plan, give command of the Snarl to the Dark One, and have his God unceremoniously dispose of Xykon. But it would be preposterous at this point to believe that Xykon isn't seeing it coming.

Xykon has already provided strong evidence that he doesn't trusts Redcloak neither the Plan. As poven, if nothing else, by the fact that the Lich gave Tsukiko the assignment of studying the Ritual. So there is zero chance that Xykon is going to carry out the Plan. At least, not the Plan as Redcloak envisions it. Remember Xykon's speech to V about Power. "Power is something you ARE" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html). Gaining ultimate power through controlling an Eldritch Abomination doesn't really fits with Xykon's views on what True Power means, does it?

At some point towards the end of the story, we are going to witness Xykon crushing Redcloak's expectations. Either by twisting the Plan himself, or simply by telling Redcloak that he is not going to perform the Ritual and has only complied to the Plan up until that point for the lulz ("I'm boored") and to have fun abusing Redcloak and giving the little goblin false hope then looking at his face when the sorcerer lifts the veil away from Reddie's sole remaining eye.

And at that point, the question raised by the OP will be pointless. It doesn't matters whether Redcloak or the Dark One is the most likely to budge on the Plan. Because Xykon did already give up on it long ago. And after that fact gets revealed (in whatever way The Giant decides to deliver it), the Dark One (and Redcloak, assuming the goblin survives the reveal) will have no other option but comply with Thor's proposal.

[Goblin_Priest]

Goblin_Priest, the argument you seem to be making, which amounts to "Even though we need the Dark One's power to help, but the Dark One himself can't actually do it, it has to be channeled through a cleric." is a very strange one.


Seems on par, to me, with the rules about cleric and the material plane that we've been presented, such as the wager concerning Hel's clerics. That the gods can't do certain things on the material plane without clerics seems fairly established in canon to me.


Because as Thor explained three-color barriers can’t hold a four-color Snarl. Until the quiddity reveal we had assumed that the Gates could theoretically hold the Snarl indefinitely when it actually would have gotten out anyway. There is no point in the Gods continuously fixing the Gates the Scribblers made.


The problem is that if our heroes attack Redcloak they may end up dead. Or damage the Gate. Or the Snarl May break out the last Gate on its own in the time it takes another Goblin to get high level enough to try. And as Thor as said there is a great risk that the Dark One, and with him the violet essence, will not make it after that.

They can’t try to negotiate with him because he is killing their messengers and dropping by his place would almost certainly result in another Snarl.

Except they have. They might not be permanent. They might eventually fail. But the Order of the Scrible's gates have lasted a long time until mortals actively attacked them (intentionally or not). Maybe the rifts growth is exponential, but gates aren't failing left and right on their own yet in this world, which suggests there's still time that could be bought.

[B. Dandelion]

All other considerations aside, if the Dark One could simply personally help with the construction of the new and improved unbreakable Gates, no one casting a ninth level spell necessary, then "kill Redcloak, stop the Dark One's current plan cold, then tell him he can have goblinoid equality if he helps build the Gates when there's no other way he could get it" is an option I would be very surprised Thor didn't at least acknowledge.

With no lines of communication open, they can't tell him anything. Including the fact that he won't survive long enough to help build the next world if this one is destroyed. So even killing his high priest and destroying his artifact doesn't necessarily force him to the negotiating table, because he still thinks he can get what he wants via "Plan B".

Not that I'm sure Redcloak isn't necessary to the plan in any case. It's a little unclear to me at this point and I could read it either way. If they need a mortal to channel the energy regardless of how cooperative the god is, then I'd imagine they will need 17th-level clerics from the other pantheons to be involved in the process of sealing the rifts too, but that very well may be part of the instructions Thor will (hypothetically) give Durkon when he calls in.

[CriticalFailure]

I think Xykon really does want to rule the world and I think it fits in his worldview: he sees himself as the one powerful enough to seize and control this tool, and able to dominate Redcloak and use him to get it.

I’m sure Xykon understands Redcloak well enough to expect some sort of double cross and to know that Redcloak will expect Xykon to try to seize power for himself. I still think Xykon’s understanding of his minion’s “evil, but for a good cause crap” is fairly surface level: good enough to manipulate him but still lacking on certain key points.

For one thing, while Xykon is very aware that Recloak is willing to sacrifice for his cause, I’m not so sure he’s twigged that Redcloak doesn’t care at all whether he actually will get to see it come to fruition.

I also think Xykon’s badass speeches about power should not be taken as an accurate statement about what power is, but a statement of the kinds of power Xykon values and what he overlooks. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that sorcerers and clerics are kind of opposite when it comes to power, with sorcerers getting it from focusing on themselves and their innate abilities in what seems to be a literally self centered way of learning, while clerics are all about accepting that there is some deity greater than themself and that they are most valuable serving that deity and being a little part of something much larger and more powerful than themself.

There’s also the contrast in Xykon and Redcloak wrt the reliance on overwhelming force versus knowledge and preparation as a source of power. Redcloak has already underestimated overwhelming force and paid for it; my best guess is that Xykon will similarly pay for underestimating knowledge and strategy.6(

[understatement]

Redcloak. The second most-important villain in the story isn't TDO, it's the high priest goblin. We're not given much an in-depth analysis on TDO's character and personality in canon, while we've received a considerable amount of the dynamic between Xykon and RC and what makes each tick. Honestly, if Durkon even manages to communicate him successfully I can't see Redcloak straight-up agreeing to the demands.

I can imagine him agreeing to assist Durkon (and by extension, the rest of the Order) in a critical point of battle, (maybe Mass Heal?) but in order for RC to think of an acquiescence he has to get rid of Xykon. And that's going to be the biggest obstacle here.

Man I cannot wait for that Starscream moment. If it happens.

[Rrmcklin]

I feel the need to point out that what Thor said was that with a fourth quiddity the gods could do spot-welding - basically patching up any rifts that will continue to appear to make the world last indefinitely.

If that plan actually requires a level 17 or higher cleric from each pantheon, instead of the gods doing it themselves it becomes much shakier. How clerics that high level or super rare was a plot point for a time.

Thor's a bit of a flake, but I don't think the feasibility of the plan is actually supposed to be up for debate here, at least not with cooperation.

[Xyril]

I agree with Goblin_Priest.

All other considerations aside, if the Dark One could simply personally help with the construction of the new and improved unbreakable Gates, no one casting a ninth level spell necessary, then "kill Redcloak, stop the Dark One's current plan cold, then tell him he can have goblinoid equality if he helps build the Gates when there's no other way he could get it" is an option I would be very surprised Thor didn't at least acknowledge.

This seems like it could backfire spectacularly. We don't know much about the Dark One's temperament or knowledge. Killing his priest and stopping his plan would likely piss him off. If he's aware of the Order's connection to Thor, that anger would only be directed at the gods who he's already not speaking to. Now, if the Dark One thinks that the Snarl will escape sooner than he can enact a new plan, I can see survival instinct perhaps trumping whatever anger/pride/fear is keeping him from talking to the other gods. The problem is, there's a lot we don't know, and when I consider all of the likely variations, changing almost any variable leads to a situation where killing Redcloak makes things worse. If the Dark One believes he has time, and he's the patient, brooding sort, helping another goblin ascend to high priesthood and taking another crack at the plan doesn't seem like a bad idea--particularly since Redcloak has left him with a nascent pan-goblinoid society that is much more powerful and cohesive than what he had to work with before. So long as the Dark One believes that he has time, then he believes he has options, and so long as he has options, the only way to get him to even speak to the other gods is to make that option look better than it did before.

[Kish]

How clerics that high level or super rare was a plot point for a time.
As in, Haley said in one strip that she wasn't sure there were any level 17 clerics in the world. When she was yelling at Celia.

If Thor's scheme hinges on one cleric of a god from each pantheon casting a ninth-level spell, it literally (not the figuratively of "Now I have to find a cleric to cast True Resurrection on Roy?! I can't do that!") only requires four seventeenth-level clerics in the entire world. If Durkon isn't almost there himself now (take the posts about his having died twice as read, please), Hilgya certainly is; that would just leave one Southern and one Western. Impossible if the High Priest of the Twelve Gods truly represented the best clerics the entire Southern pantheon had, I grant you.

[Rrmcklin]

As in, Haley said in one strip that she wasn't sure there were any level 17 clerics in the world. When she was yelling at Celia.

If Thor's scheme hinges on one cleric of a god from each pantheon casting a ninth-level spell, it literally (not the figuratively of "Now I have to find a cleric to cast True Resurrection on Roy?! I can't do that!") only requires four seventeenth-level clerics in the entire world. If Durkon isn't almost there himself now (take the posts about his having died twice as read, please), Hilgya certainly is; that would just leave one Southern and one Western. Impossible if the High Priest of the Twelve Gods truly represented the best clerics the entire Southern pantheon had, I grant you.

My point wasn't that they don't or never have existed, or can't exist in the future, just that it's unsure enough to warrant less certainty than as the indefinite solution he brooches it as. And I think we are supposed to take it as such. Certainty that makes much more sense that if once things have been established the gods can just do it themselves.

[B. Dandelion]

I was thinking that if they only need one cleric for one god/pantheon who's uncooperative, it might suggest that Fyraltari's interpretation is correct and the Dark One could simply join with the others if he wished.

But it belatedly occurs to me that there's another reason they might only need a cleric for the Dark One: because the other quiddities are already a part of the world.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

I thought that Mariele said what I was thinking because they posted an SoD spoiler, but apparently not? When I first read Thor's plan for Durkon, I felt a pang of sadness, because I thought it fell right into place with another piece of foreshadowing:

:durkon: Redcloak! Stop! I need to talk to ye!

:redcloak: It's a free action, dwarf. (Bolster Undead.)

:durkon: Och, I get it, but I swear it's important! It's aboot the Dark One and the gates! Lord Thor said tha if'n ye'd just cooperate with us, the Dark One's special purple pantheon-whatsit can seal the gates fer good -

:redcloak: ...

:durkon: - instead o' shiftin' it ta the outer planes like ye were goin' ta do.

:xykon: Hey, couldn't help overhearing, what was that last part again?

:redcloak: Eegah! Flame Strike!

:durkon: Hrnngh!

:xykon: 'Cause, see, I thought we'd be controlling your god-killing squiggle-bud and taking over this world, for us. Well, for me.

:redcloak: It's nothing! Lies from the Northern gods to trick me into abandoning the plan! I mean our plan! I mean he doesn't know what he's talking about!

:durkon: It's nae a lie! We can make tha world safe fer goblins without the Dark One needin' ta hold the celestial realms hostage!

:redcloak: Shut. Up.

:xykon: No, it's fine, really. No big deal, you know? I kinda figured we'd do the ritual first, but I don't mind skipping it. Get'm, tiger.

:redcloak: What? Look, I can explain- GAH!

:mitd: *GLOMP*

[Goblin_Priest]

I thought that Mariele said what I was thinking because they posted an SoD spoiler, but apparently not? When I first read Thor's plan for Durkon, I felt a pang of sadness, because I thought it fell right into place with another piece of foreshadowing:

:durkon: Redcloak! Stop! I need to talk to ye!

:redcloak: It's a free action, dwarf. (Bolster Undead.)

:durkon: Och, I get it, but I swear it's important! It's aboot the Dark One and the gates! Lord Thor said tha if'n ye'd just cooperate with us, the Dark One's special purple pantheon-whatsit can seal the gates fer good -

:redcloak: ...

:durkon: - instead o' shiftin' it ta the outer planes like ye were goin' ta do.

:xykon: Hey, couldn't help overhearing, what was that last part again?

:redcloak: Eegah! Flame Strike!

:durkon: Hrnngh!

:xykon: 'Cause, see, I thought we'd be controlling your god-killing squiggle-bud and taking over this world, for us. Well, for me.

:redcloak: It's nothing! Lies from the Northern gods to trick me into abandoning the plan! I mean our plan! I mean he doesn't know what he's talking about!

:durkon: It's nae a lie! We can make tha world safe fer goblins without the Dark One needin' ta hold the celestial realms hostage!

:redcloak: Shut. Up.

:xykon: No, it's fine, really. No big deal, you know? I kinda figured we'd do the ritual first, but I don't mind skipping it. Get'm, tiger.

:redcloak: What? Look, I can explain- GAH!

:mitd: *GLOMP*

I like The Pilgrim's theory better.

[The Pilgrim]

Yep, I don't think Xykon needs Durkon or anyone else to tell him that there is something fishy with The Plan at this point. He is already suspicious, and that's why he instructed Tsukiko to study The Ritual. Possibly he doesn't knows the exact facts yet, but definitely he is no longer buying Redcloak's tale.

Well, getting back to the line of debate proposed in the OP, the Dark One can't be contacted directly and that's why Thor assigned Durkon to reach to Redcloak. The goblin obviously is not going to buy Durkon's story, so he isn't going to bother telling the Dark One about it. That leaves The Dark One out of the decission process, which makes sense because the Gods aren't the protagonists and antagonists of this story. The OOTS and Team Evil are. The decisions that matters for the story are those made by our heroes and villiains.

Redcloak simply can't consider Durkon's proposal until The Plan gets derrailed. And Redcloak isn't going to give up on the plan as long as he believes he has Xykon firmly fooled on it. The moment the Lich makes him realize that Xykon is the master and Redcloak is the puppet, as has always been, is the moment Redcloak can begin to consider other options. And at that point, the goblin relaying Durkon's proposal to The Dark One becames just a formality, because Redcloak would have already taken the decission to steer from The Plan.

In a nutshell: The Dark One stepping in to overrule Redcloak and force the decission on him would be... unfitting for the story The Giant is narrating us. It is Redcloak who must reach the conclusion by himself. What happens to a character in this story is the result of that character's actions.

[Chronos]

It seems to me that Thor's plan is not a subversion or replacement for The Dark One's plan, but its fulfillment. The Dark One wants the threat of the Snarl as leverage to get the other gods to acknowledge him as an equal and allow him to take his fair share in the worldbuilding. Thor, as a result of a the threat of the Snarl, wants to work with The Dark One as an equal on worldbuilding. In other words, The Dark One's plan has already succeeded, and he just needs to be made aware of that.

[Fyraltari]

It seems to me that Thor's plan is not a subversion or replacement for The Dark One's plan, but its fulfillment. The Dark One wants the threat of the Snarl as leverage to get the other gods to acknowledge him as an equal and allow him to take his fair share in the worldbuilding. Thor, as a result of a the threat of the Snarl, wants to work with The Dark One as an equal on worldbuilding. In other words, The Dark One's plan has already succeeded, and he just needs to be made aware of that.

There's a vast difference however, in that this has nothing to do with The Plan as it was already true before the Dark One implemented it, rendering all the sacrifices made utterly useless. And Redcloak can't have that.

Also that's assuming the Dark One is honest about his motivs and his real plan isn't simply "kill all the other gods".

[Peelee]

There's a vast difference however, in that this has nothing to do with The Plan as it was already true before the Dark One implemented it, rendering all the sacrifices made utterly useless. And Redcloak can't have that.

Also that's assuming the Dark One is honest about his motivs and his real plan isn't simply "kill all the other gods".

If a single god can't make anything other than ephemeral, no-better-than-if-a-wizard-made it stuff, I doubt he would want the other gods gone. And I'm sure he's tried to make stuff by himself and realized the futility of it. He needs them, he just didn't know how badly they need him.

[Jasdoif]

If a single god can't make anything other than ephemeral, no-better-than-if-a-wizard-made it stuff, I doubt he would want the other gods gone. And I'm sure he's tried to make stuff by himself and realized the futility of it. He needs them, he just didn't know how badly they need him.You appear to be assuming the Dark One cares.

[Fyraltari]

If a single god can't make anything other than ephemeral, no-better-than-if-a-wizard-made it stuff, I doubt he would want the other gods gone. And I'm sure he's tried to make stuff by himself and realized the futility of it. He needs them, he just didn't know how badly they need him.

Stuff made by wizards last. The problem is that any other god could wave it out of existence without difficulty. A problem he doesn't have if he kills them all.

[Goblin_Priest]

If the Dark One has a motive other than the one we know of, then we are essentially adding him as a character to the story, and making him an antagonist, instead of the current background role he currently plays. Are we really expecting such a change after all this time? ;)

Also, the deal about the phylactery and the mind control on MitD is surely going to play roles in the resolution of the plot.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If the Dark One has a motive other than the one we know of, then we are essentially adding him as a character to the story, and making him an antagonist, instead of the current background role he currently plays. Are we really expecting such a change after all this time?

Yes, yes I am. There is a whole book where I expect he will get as fleshed out as Hel was in this book, if not considerably more.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

If the Dark One has a motive other than the one we know of, then we are essentially adding him as a character to the story, and making him an antagonist, instead of the current background role he currently plays. Are we really expecting such a change after all this time? ;)

Why yes. Don't you find it suspicious that every single apparition from the Dark One has been through some other character giving exposition plus one message? Despite him being the main backer behind one of the main vilains? This keeps his motivaations and character ambiguous, why would The Giant do that if it was straightforward?

There is definitely something we haven't been told/shown yet about him.

[Peelee]

You appear to be assuming the Dark One cares.

I currently have no reason to assume he does not and every reason to assume he does, so yes.

[Goblin_Priest]

Why yes. Don't you find it suspicious that every single apparition from the Dark One has been through some other character giving exposition plus one message? Despite him being the main backer behind one of the main vilains? This keeps his motivaations and character ambiguous, why would The Giant do that if it was straightforward?

There is definitely something we haven't been told/shown yet about him.

Is it on purpose? For sure. Is it for the sake of a huge "gotcha!" plot twist? Not so sure.

As another argued, as it is, Redcloak and Xykon are the antagonists of this story, not the Dark One. Failing to ever really show the Dark One helps strengthen the message that all of this isn't about the Dark One, it's about Redcloak.


Yes, yes I am. There is a whole book where I expect he will get as fleshed out as Hel was in this book, if not considerably more.

Grey Wolf

There's a huge difference between Hel and the DO, though. Hel is a chapter-specific villain, she presents a presumably concise setback to the heroes, during which it makes sense to detail her a little more. She was never relevant before this.

The Dark One, on the other hand, has been relevant for a very long time. So it wouldn't be adding a new roadblock and then explaining said roadblock, it would be rewriting an existing character.

I'm not omniscient and I could be surprised, but I would find it somewhat strange to present him as was done only to reveal more about him in the final book. Usually, such reveals are preceded by continuous tip-offs to lead people to wonder if the information they have is indeed correct. Unlike for the Snarl, there has been little of this for the Dark One. If anything, he recent portrayal by Thor helped etch him out of the "crayons" ambiguity, and also granted a credible account backing the rest of what we were told, as Thor essentially vetted the story Redcloak had given us already.

[Kish]

The Dark One has been a character since Start of Darkness.

Currently a mysterious character, who has never actually appeared on-panel except in illustrations of events other characters were describing. He came up with the Plan and apparently wants Redcloak to stick to it. But to suggest that it would be a sudden massive change in the story for him to "become" anything more than Redcloak's power battery? Not for the first time, Goblin_Priest, I reflect that the webcomic you're reading doesn't seem more than minimally related to the one I'm reading.

[woweedd]

The Dark One has been a character since Start of Darkness.

Currently a mysterious character, who has never actually appeared on-panel except in illustrations of events other characters were describing. He came up with the Plan and apparently wants Redcloak to stick to it. But to suggest that it would be a sudden massive change in the story for him to "become" anything more than Redcloak's power battery? Not for the first time, Goblin_Priest, I reflect that the webcomic you're reading doesn't seem more than minimally related to the one I'm reading.
Indeed. I have a feeling that, on the whole, TDO is more Evil then Redcloak, and that, if Redcloak does get redeemed, it will involve him finally realizing this fact.

[Jasdoif]

I currently have no reason to assume he does not and every reason to assume he does, so yes.I don't know...I mean, he made this one artifact, with this one plan to allow him to release the Snarl to kill gods; which would necessarily have to be after he learned about the Snarl killing gods. It seems a lot like he's okay with messing with things that can kill him, and that the ostensible blackmail plan already covers the case where the gods are unwilling to give him everything he asks for (in advance, or otherwise). Not to mention he's tried dragging concessions out of leaders of his scale before; that's when they killed him.

Given that, and how so many complications with the blackmail plan are irrelevant if the actual intent is dropping the Snarl on the gods at the first opportunity, and how we suspiciously have only been shown the Dark One's messages second-hand....I don't think assumptions in either direction are warranted.

[Peelee]

I don't know...I mean, he made this one artifact, with this one plan to allow him to release the Snarl to kill gods; which would necessarily have to be after he learned about the Snarl killing gods. It seems a lot like he's okay with messing with things that can kill him, and that the ostensible blackmail plan already covers the case where the gods are unwilling to give him everything he asks for (in advance, or otherwise). Not to mention he's tried dragging concessions out of leaders of his scale before; that's when they killed him.

Given that, and how so many complications with the blackmail plan are irrelevant if the actual intent is dropping the Snarl on the gods at the first opportunity, and how we suspiciously have only been shown the Dark One's messages second-hand....I don't think assumptions in either direction are warranted.

Eh, he went to parley and got killed, so this time when he goes to parley he's going to have a gun*, to help insure his safety. Seems pretty straightforward to me. He wanted goblin equality in life, he wants goblin equality in godhood. Redcloak's own admission of the plan is that TDO wants goblin equality in either this world or the next. Everything points towards it being striaghtforward. He needs to gods to make a next world, so eradicating them doesn't help him at all.

*I very much like this analogy, considering how most gun deaths are self-inflicted, whether intentional or accidental. Seems a pretty fitting analogy, something incredibly dangerous being used for safekeeping that can easily get out of hand, especially when the wielder is being fairly cavalier about it.

[Jasdoif]

Eh, he went to parley and got killed, so this time when he goes to parley he's going to have a gun*, to help insure his safety.He had an army that first time.

[Fyraltari]

Goblin_priest, the very same book that gave the Dark One most of his characterization had, in its final chapter, a character, who is portrayed at this point in the story as the sole voice of reason, call him ‘a petty, spiteful god who stopped caring for the goblin people long ago’. So no, the idea of the Dark One manipulating Redcloak to his own ends would not come out of left field.

Furthermore, Thor’s story does not ‘vet’ Redcloak’s as he makes no mention of the goblins having been purposefully screwed over and seems to believe that the Dark One’s anger is mostly due to his attempt on his life and having the secret of the Snarl hidden from him while in Red’s story the Dark One was very clear on the subject of why he was pissed.

Finally having it turning out that the Dark One lied to Redcloak does not equate him taking the Big Bad’s spot as it was thouroughly established, especially by the current book, that the Gods are powerless without their Clerics which would be why he would have lied in the first place.

Indeed, whatever revelation there is going to be about the Dark One is guaranteed to only matter through Redcloak and how he reacts to it. Probably as a ultimate shot at redemption/leaving the path he is on.

[Peelee]

He had an army that first time.

So did the other kings, presumably. Only one Snarl, though.

[Fyraltari]

So did the other kings, presumably. Only one Snarl, though.

For now...

[Peelee]

For now...

To go back to the gun analogy, I think nobody is interested in an arms race. At least, I certainly hope that's the case.

[Jasdoif]

To go back to the gun analogy, I think nobody is interested in an arms race. At least, I certainly hope that's the case.I bet making demands with the threat of annihilation rises above the level of "the slightest disagreement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)".

[Fyraltari]

To go back to the gun analogy, I think nobody is interested in an arms race. At least, I certainly hope that's the case.

I have always liked leg races better anyhow.

[Peelee]

I bet making demands with the threat of annihilation rises above the level of "the slightest disagreement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)".

I agree. Good thing Thor has a plan to not have demands made with the threat of annihilation.:smalltongue:

I have always liked leg races better anyhow.

Wheelbarrow races use both!

[Jasdoif]

I agree. Good thing Thor has a plan to not have demands made with the threat of annihilation.:smalltongue:And if Thor can actually get everyone to agree to give the Dark One everything he wants, that'll be great! It may be a problem if the deaths of other gods is what he wants.

[Peelee]

And if Thor can actually get everyone to agree to give the Dark One everything he wants, that'll be great! It may be a problem if the deaths of other gods is what he wants.

If giving someone everything they want is ever a goal, I'd probably not be cheering for the person trying to get everyone in on that.

[CriticalFailure]

I doubt Redcloak will stop being a cleric of TDO as they need the purple quiddity.

[Jasdoif]

If giving someone everything they want is ever a goal, I'd probably not be cheering for the person trying to get everyone in on that.If the Plan is exactly as described and the Dark One is actually intending to blackmail the gods with the threat of the Snarl, then he's going to get what he wants or he'll release the Snarl. And if he gets what he wants, he'll still have the Snarl to repeat the process when he wants something else.

Sealing the rifts, meanwhile, means the Gates will no longer open the way to the Snarl. In your analogy, this is the other gods offering to give the Dark One a chair if he destroys his gun. If he actually goes for it, he's incredibly less likely to shoot anyone (including himself by accident). Relinquishing his ability to threaten the gods along with the entire population of the world, souls and all, if he doesn't get his every whim met....That I think falls in the "cheer-worthy" category.


I don't really expect that happen, largely because the circumstances seem like the kind of situation that'd introduce a conflict between Redcloak and the Dark One, and it'd be kind of a waste if the Dark One's stance changed rather than Redcloak's because of how incredibly little we've seen of the Dark One (especially compared to Redcloak)...but I would be okay with being wrong in this situation.

[Peelee]

If the Plan is exactly as described and the Dark One is actually intending to blackmail the gods with the threat of the Snarl, then he's going to get what he wants or he'll release the Snarl. And if he gets what he wants, he'll still have the Snarl to repeat the process when he wants something else.

Which is an excellent reason to believe the Plan will not succeed.

[Jasdoif]

Which is an excellent reason to believe the Plan will not succeed.Or that the Plan is not as described. Which I guess also means it's an excellent reason to believe the Plan as described will not succeed....

[Peelee]

Or that the Plan is not as described. Which I guess also means it's an excellent reason to believe the Plan as described will not succeed....

Ooooh, that dang author, with his clever storytelling!

[Jasdoif]

Ooooh, that dang author, with his clever storytelling!It's like he's misdirecting us by misdirecting us. It's misdirection all the way down, kind of like gluing a speedometer onto an electron.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Yep, I don't think Xykon needs Durkon or anyone else to tell him that there is something fishy with The Plan at this point. He is already suspicious, and that's why he instructed Tsukiko to study The Ritual. Possibly he doesn't knows the exact facts yet, but definitely he is no longer buying Redcloak's tale.

I agree with you! I guess my point is that once everything plays out - probably more like you said than in my crappy accelerated version - I still don't think Redcloak really has a chance to take Durkon's offer. Xykon's already shut it down with his shenanigans.

[The Pilgrim]

Or that the Plan is not as described. Which I guess also means it's an excellent reason to believe the Plan as described will not succeed....

Now that you mention it...

What if... when The Dark One learnt about the Snarl, he thought "That's great. The Prison is falling down, the World will need to be remade, and I will have a say in the next one. I will gain significant more power as I will no longer be the outcasted God of the pariah races".

But then some heroes appear and patch the Rifts with the Gates. "Darn, I need those gates destroyed. But perhaps my minions wouldn't be appropiately motivated to collaborate if I tell them that the Plan is to trigger the destruction of the world, killing them all in the process."

"What if I tell them that The Plan is to warp the gates with some ritual to control the Snarl? Chances are good my minions will destroy the Gates either when trying to capture them, or when trying to manipulate them. Chances are even better that the Gates will get destroyed by the heroes who will inevitably try to stop my minions. And on the off chance that my pawns manage to capture an intact gate and perform the Ritual, well, the Ritual is actually designed to, you guessed it, destroy the Gates."

"As a bonus, the Plan will probably attract some Big Scenery Chewing Villiain to collaborate with my weak minions, raising the chances of success."

"Yeah, that one might actually work".

Nah, such plan would be needlessly complicated, wouldn't it?

[Jasdoif]

Nah, such plan would be needlessly complicated, wouldn't it?Only the part about needing to destroy the Gates; intentionally opening one Gate to let the Snarl out was plausible enough for Dorukan to have a self-destruct. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html)

[Fyraltari]

Problem is we know from Tsukiko the arcane part of the ritual is legit and Red would know if the divine part wasn't, so it's a safe bet that the ritual does what it's supposed to do. Theoritically, at least; it's not like they ever tested it.

[Goblin_Priest]

Goblin_priest, the very same book that gave the Dark One most of his characterization had, in its final chapter, a character, who is portrayed at this point in the story as the sole voice of reason, call him ‘a petty, spiteful god who stopped caring for the goblin people long ago’. So no, the idea of the Dark One manipulating Redcloak to his own ends would not come out of left field.

Well, time will tell. In any case, Right-eye was never pious to begin with, and he then lost quite a lot to "The Plan" on which he wasn't overwhelmingly attached to to begin with. Bitterness and resentment are to be expected, and there's no reason to take his word for it. The Dark One *can't* do much at all on the material plane, so Right-Eye has absolutely zero evidence to support that statement. It's not as if he could do something and then failed to do so, then at least Right-Eye could use inaction as evidence.

All depictions of the Dark One, by credible and semi-credible parties, paint him as devoted to goblin-kind.

[Fyraltari]

Well, time will tell. In any case, Right-eye was never pious to begin with, and he then lost quite a lot to "The Plan" on which he wasn't overwhelmingly attached to to begin with. Bitterness and resentment are to be expected, and there's no reason to take his word for it. The Dark One *can't* do much at all on the material plane, so Right-Eye has absolutely zero evidence to support that statement. It's not as if he could do something and then failed to do so, then at least Right-Eye could use inaction as evidence.
Okay, no. You said that having the Dark One be disinterested with goblinkind's fate would be a new direction for the character but as I have shown, it's a direction that is just as supported by the text as the other. Also we don't have any reason to take Redcloak's word over Right-Eye's: he is a sycophant and mentally unable to consider that he was ever wrong. That's the difference, Right-Eye was just as onboard with the Plan as Redcloak but realized that it backfired and quit.

And yes Right-Eye does have proof to support his position: the Dark One hasn't taken Redcloak's power yet meaning that he is, at least, confortable with letting Xykon kill as many goblins as he pleases in the name of the Plan. Seeing as this plan has as step 1 "Make the Dark One the absolute ruler of the cosmos" it is entirely reasonable to question his motives.

All depictions of the Dark One, by credible and semi-credible parties, paint him as devoted to goblin-kind.
No. Redcloak's does. Thor's does not say a word about goblinkind. What other do you have in mind?

[hroþila]

No. Redcloak's does. Thor's does not say a word about goblinkind. What other do you have in mind?
Jirix's?

I mean, that one didn't show us much either, of course, but the Dark One seemed nice, reasonable and farsighted, putting Jirix to work on improving the lives of the goblinoids in ways that ostensibly have nothing to do with his Plan.

[Lacuna Caster]

I have no idea. I could see Redcloak finally seeing the light after the true nature of the Dark One is revealed to him, and I could also see the Dark One being confirmed as a more or less reasonable guy but Redcloak refusing to cooperate as part of his broader refusal of redemption (think Sauron at the end of the First Age: there was a moment when everything hung in the balance and repentance was a serious possibility, but ultimately he couldn't bear to face justice or admit he was wrong, so he rejected that possibility and fell even further instead).

Well, getting back to the line of debate proposed in the OP, the Dark One can't be contacted directly and that's why Thor assigned Durkon to reach to Redcloak. The goblin obviously is not going to buy Durkon's story, so he isn't going to bother telling the Dark One about it. That leaves The Dark One out of the decission process, which makes sense because the Gods aren't the protagonists and antagonists of this story...
Yeah, but y tho?

I mean, I am genuinely confused as to why Redcloak hasn't been engaged in direct and regular communication with the Dark One, given Hel and Thrym have clearly been talking to their own clerics engaged in a similar bid at seizing cosmic power, and commune spells (apparently) work just fine if the God in question can be bothered to answer. There is literally no-one on the planet that the Dark One has a better reason to talk with than Redcloak, right now.

Also, on the topic of 'redemption', bear in mind that Redcloak isn't damning his soul by following the Plan. He's actually keeping it safe. Because the Dark One (presumably) has the power to dispose of his soul after death. Deliberately scuppering the Plan if TDO doesn't want it scuppered could easily leave RC stuck with a one-way ticket to the Hells. Conversely, if TDO decides his Plan needs adjustment in light of new opportunities and RC throws a spanner in the works based on spite or whatever, that also won't endear him to his patron. (Who can also strip him of his powers at any time, of course.)

Like it or not, the Dark One legitimately has a huge amount of leverage over Redcloak here, to the extent that the latter could reasonably be considered an extension of the former's agency. You know, if they were actually talking to eachother.


If Thor's scheme hinges on one cleric of a god from each pantheon casting a ninth-level spell, it literally (not the figuratively of "Now I have to find a cleric to cast True Resurrection on Roy?! I can't do that!") only requires four seventeenth-level clerics in the entire world. If Durkon isn't almost there himself now (take the posts about his having died twice as read, please), Hilgya certainly is...
There's a significant gap between level 13 and level 17, unless Hilgya cast something more impressive than resurrection lately.

[zimmerwald1915]

There's a significant gap between level 13 and level 17, unless Hilgya cast something more impressive than resurrection lately.
Hilgya hasn't cast any 8th-level spells yet, but she's cast enough 7th-level spells in a day from her own slots that we can infer she prepared one in an 8th-level slot. This in preference to her having a Wisdom score than 1) is absurdly high and 2) doesn't jive with her characterization as presented.

She's at least level 15, may be level 16, and there is a small gap between either and level 17.

[Lacuna Caster]

Hilgya hasn't cast any 8th-level spells yet, but she's cast enough 7th-level spells in a day from her own slots that we can infer she prepared one in an 8th-level slot. This in preference to her having a Wisdom score than 1) is absurdly high and 2) doesn't jive with her characterization as presented.
Uggh. Hilgya, of all people, being the most uber-powerful non-antagonist just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[B. Dandelion]

Jirix's?

I mean, that one didn't show us much either, of course, but the Dark One seemed nice, reasonable and farsighted, putting Jirix to work on improving the lives of the goblinoids in ways that ostensibly have nothing to do with his Plan.

I always felt like there was something deeply hypocritical about that scene. The Dark One does come across as kind to Jirix and stresses the importance of his new duties, but he uses the opportunity to pass along a message to Redcloak regarding the Plan -- and it isn't stop. The Plan runs the very real risk of destroying the world, which of course includes Gobbotopia, so his actual concern for the city is secondary at best. Plus I kinda doubt that Redcloak has actually spelled out to Jirix the part of the Plan where both he and the Dark One are prepared to count the obliteration of every goblin soul on the planet as a win, so under those circumstances it comes off like him playing the wise benevolent figure to naive little Jirix but taking an action that largely undermines that image and shows his true priorities.

[Goblin_Priest]

Jirix's?

I mean, that one didn't show us much either, of course, but the Dark One seemed nice, reasonable and farsighted, putting Jirix to work on improving the lives of the goblinoids in ways that ostensibly have nothing to do with his Plan.

Indeed.

And, to a lesser extent, Thor's, by not providing anything that counters what Redcloak and Jirix put forth.

And, to an additional extent, the lack of any narrative by anyone even remotely in the know discrediting what they are saying.

[factotum]

I always felt like there was something deeply hypocritical about that scene. The Dark One does come across as kind to Jirix and stresses the importance of his new duties, but he uses the opportunity to pass along a message to Redcloak regarding the Plan -- and it isn't stop.

His exact words, as transmitted through the possibly unreliable source Jirix, were "Don't screw this up.". No mention of the Plan, so for all we know, he was actually talking about Gobbotopia and it's just Redcloak who interpreted it to mean the Plan.

[B. Dandelion]

His exact words, as transmitted through the possibly unreliable source Jirix, were "Don't screw this up.". No mention of the Plan, so for all we know, he was actually talking about Gobbotopia and it's just Redcloak who interpreted it to mean the Plan.

First of all, Jirix specifically says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) that the message is about the Plan. Capital-P Plan and everything.

Second, the commentary in Blood Runs in the Family is explicit about what is being communicated.


Most importantly, the idea needed to be put forth that just because Redcloak had, in fact, established a goblin state on the grave of Azure City did not mean that he was being let off the hook for carrying out his god's evil plan for the Gates. If Redcloak was the hero of the story, he could probably rest on his laurels at this point, but as the villain, he needs to keep moving.

The whole point is that the Dark One is still keeping Redcloak on the hook for carrying out the Plan.

[Fyraltari]

Indeed.
Not convinced, the Dark One doesn't do anything there, the resurrection spell was Redcloak's doing not his and still tell Red to prioritize the Plan over Gobbotopia.


And, to a lesser extent, Thor's, by not providing anything that counters what Redcloak and Jirix put forth.
You can't count an account not mentioning an issue as equal to supporting one side of it.


And, to an additional extent, the lack of any narrative by anyone even remotely in the know discrediting what they are saying.
What makes Redclaoak or Jirix more "in the know" than Right-Eye on the Dark One's motivations? None of them have access to his mind.

[woweedd]

Uggh. Hilgya, of all people, being the most uber-powerful non-antagonist just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Durkon's probably either o or very-near her level.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, but y tho?

I mean, I am genuinely confused as to why Redcloak hasn't been engaged in direct and regular communication with the Dark One, given Hel and Thrym have clearly been talking to their own clerics engaged in a similar bid at seizing cosmic power, and commune spells (apparently) work just fine if the God in question can be bothered to answer. There is literally no-one on the planet that the Dark One has a better reason to talk with than Redcloak, right now.
I can see redcloak deliberately avoiding talking to the Dark One because he doesn't want to face the possibility of having erred in his execution of the plan, subconsciously even. As for the Dark One not calling Redcloak... not enough data to theorize but that is suspicious.


Also, on the topic of 'redemption', bear in mind that Redcloak isn't damning his soul by following the Plan. He's actually keeping it safe. Because the Dark One (presumably) has the power to dispose of his soul after death. Deliberately scuppering the Plan if TDO doesn't want it scuppered could easily leave RC stuck with a one-way ticket to the Hells. Conversely, if TDO decides his Plan needs adjustment in light of new opportunities and RC throws a spanner in the works based on spite or whatever, that also won't endear him to his patron. (Who can also strip him of his powers at any time, of course.)
I don't think anyone was talking about Red reedeeming himself in the sense of securing his afterlife, but in the sense of becoming a better person.



Like it or not, the Dark One legitimately has a huge amount of leverage over Redcloak here, to the extent that the latter could reasonably be considered an extension of the former's agency. You know, if they were actually talking to eachother.
Not really? If I understand correctly, the gods only have a say in the afterlife of their worshippers, if a worshipper decides to forsake their deity then that deity doesn't get a say in their afterlife.

[Goblin_Priest]

What makes Redclaoak or Jirix more "in the know" than Right-Eye on the Dark One's motivations? None of them have access to his mind.

One had info directly drilled into his mind, the other had info told to his soul, both directly from the Dark One. Also Redcloak is a cleric with presumably a few ranks in Knowledge (religion), not sure for Jirix.

What does Right-Eye have? Absolutely nothing, other than bitterness and resentment.

[Fyraltari]

One had info directly drilled into his mind, the other had info told to his soul, both directly from the Dark One. Also Redcloak is a cleric with presumably a few ranks in Knowledge (religion), not sure for Jirix.

What does Right-Eye have? Absolutely nothing, other than bitterness and resentment.

So you know the Dark One is not lying to them because they say so and they know it is true because he has told them so?

EDIT: Right-Eye is judging the Dark One on his actions, what does Redcloak have? Absolutely nothing other than brainwashing and sunk-cost fallacies.

[understatement]

Right-Eye's unbiased precisely because he doesn't have TDO channeling through his head -- he's gauging the god from the results on the goblin people.


edit: which I realize is literally what the person above said.

oops

[Lacuna Caster]

Not really? If I understand correctly, the gods only have a say in the afterlife of their worshippers, if a worshipper decides to forsake their deity then that deity doesn't get a say in their afterlife.
That would seem like a strong incentive for the Dwarves to stop worshipping the Northern pantheon, which hasn't happened. (And no, I do not consider Hilgya a reliable authority on the subject.)

In any case, Redcloak's default destination would definitely be Hell at this point, so failing to actively please the Dark One leaves him up the metaphysical creek without a paddle, regardless of whether the latter could actively send him there.

[Fyraltari]

That would seem like a strong incentive for the Dwarves to stop worshipping the Northern pantheon, which hasn't happened. (And no, I do not consider Hilgya a reliable authority on the subject.)
The Dwarves’ situation is different from th usual. Most likely, the Bet was integrated into the building process of this world. Since the Dark One wasn’t even born yet he should have the normal deal.


In any case, Redcloak's default destination would definitely be Hell at this point, so failing to actively please the Dark One leaves him up the metaphysical creek without a paddle, regardless of whether the latter could actively send him there.
Well that depends, how fast do you think one can get to Neutral?

[Mightymosy]

The question proposed by the OP is interesting. However, it should be important to point out that, from a narrative perspective, the Main Villiain of this story is not the Dark One. It is Xykon. The Dark One isn't even the secondary villain, that's Redcloak's role as main henchman of Xykon. So the important thing for the story is not the interaction between The Dark One and Redcloak, but the interaction between Xykon and Redcloak, as Main Villian and Main Henchman.

As main henchmain, Redcloak is bound to betray his master. And, as we all know by now, he did in fact betray Xykon from the very begining, as the Plan doesn't works like he told Xykon it does (those who read SoD know it since SoD got released. Those who didn't, know it since Tsukiko's death scene). Redcloak is expecting to finish the plan, give command of the Snarl to the Dark One, and have his God unceremoniously dispose of Xykon. But it would be preposterous at this point to believe that Xykon isn't seeing it coming.

Xykon has already provided strong evidence that he doesn't trusts Redcloak neither the Plan. As poven, if nothing else, by the fact that the Lich gave Tsukiko the assignment of studying the Ritual. So there is zero chance that Xykon is going to carry out the Plan. At least, not the Plan as Redcloak envisions it. Remember Xykon's speech to V about Power. "Power is something you ARE" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html). Gaining ultimate power through controlling an Eldritch Abomination doesn't really fits with Xykon's views on what True Power means, does it?

At some point towards the end of the story, we are going to witness Xykon crushing Redcloak's expectations. Either by twisting the Plan himself, or simply by telling Redcloak that he is not going to perform the Ritual and has only complied to the Plan up until that point for the lulz ("I'm boored") and to have fun abusing Redcloak and giving the little goblin false hope then looking at his face when the sorcerer lifts the veil away from Reddie's sole remaining eye.

And at that point, the question raised by the OP will be pointless. It doesn't matters whether Redcloak or the Dark One is the most likely to budge on the Plan. Because Xykon did already give up on it long ago. And after that fact gets revealed (in whatever way The Giant decides to deliver it), the Dark One (and Redcloak, assuming the goblin survives the reveal) will have no other option but comply with Thor's proposal.

Didn't Xykon already say "You know what is funny? False hope"


I have always thought that Xykon was more dangerous than RC was aware of. I have always thought that RC's betrayal would ultimately fail because he underestimates how aware Xykon can be when he needs to...
I'm not so sure anymore. For me, the last book and the current one leave a slight impression that Xykon is in the process of being a little "weak-washed", maybe to keep us guessing, maybe to help sell the villain switch in the last book, who knows?

Still I'd like to guess what Xykon's Plan B is if he has one. Suspicious is that he often left for some time for doing something we don't know. We also don't know where he got the diary from.
I think we are up to one surprising reveal about Xykon in the last book. :-)

[Goblin_Priest]

So you know the Dark One is not lying to them because they say so and they know it is true because he has told them so?

EDIT: Right-Eye is judging the Dark One on his actions, what does Redcloak have? Absolutely nothing other than brainwashing and sunk-cost fallacies.


Right-Eye's unbiased precisely because he doesn't have TDO channeling through his head -- he's gauging the god from the results on the goblin people.


edit: which I realize is literally what the person above said.

oops

Then let's name what the Dark One has done?

*In life, he rallied the goblins to bring an end to their suffering.
*Was martyred trying to negotiate for goblinkind.
*Upon ascension to godhood, was almost martyred again, for the same reason (anti-goblin racist hate).
*Made a fuss with the gods about the goblins being given crap, as he had with his mortal peers in life.
*Then tried to peacefully guide his people as best he could.
*When he finally found a means to gain leverage for his people, he acted on it.

What more was he supposed to do? Tell goblins to keep sitting on their asses as "PCs ruthlessly clear them out of various adventure scenarios"?

What "results on the goblin people" are you talking about? Because widespread genocide of goblinoids started well before him. Xykon's an ass, but 1) the paladins didn't treat the goblins much better, and 2) The Dark One neither asked for Xykon nor could have predicted him.

So unless you want to argue that the fate of goblinoids is worse since The Plan, for which I'd argue we have no proof of whatsoever, I don't really see on what legitimate basis Right-Eye can slander the Dark One. And he is far from being without bias, he just has different bias. He lost his family to the Plan. That kind of thing would naturally bias him against the Dark One.

[Kish]

So you know the Dark One is not lying to them because they say so and they know it is true because he has told them so?

EDIT: Right-Eye is judging the Dark One on his actions, what does Redcloak have? Absolutely nothing other than brainwashing and sunk-cost fallacies.
Notice the pattern here. "All depictions of the Dark One, by credible and semi-credible parties, paint him as devoted to goblin-kind" equals: If you're a priest of the Dark One and talk about him positively, that paints him as devoted to goblinkind. If you're a god and mention that he exists and don't say anything at all on the subject of how he acts toward goblinkind, that paints him as devoted to goblinkind. If you're a goblin and explicitly say you don't believe he cares about goblinkind, that somehow doesn't count.

It appears from Goblin_Priest's perspective, it's literally impossible for the suggestion that the Dark One isn't a positive figure to be valid.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Notice the pattern here. "All depictions of the Dark One, by credible and semi-credible parties, paint him as devoted to goblin-kind" equals: If you're a priest of the Dark One and talk about him positively, that paints him as devoted to goblinkind. If you're a god and mention that he exists and don't say anything at all on the subject of how he acts toward goblinkind, that paints him as devoted to goblinkind. If you're a goblin and explicitly say you don't believe he cares about goblinkind, that somehow doesn't count.

It appears from Goblin_Priest's perspective, it's literally impossible for the suggestion that the Dark One isn't a positive figure to be valid.

In short, “according to the guy whose job is to propaganda the god, he’s great. Everyone else can’t be trusted”.

Exactly ass-backwards in the credibility scale

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

Then let's name what the Dark One has done?

*In life, he rallied the goblins to bring an end to their suffering.
*Was martyred trying to negotiate for goblinkind.
*Upon ascension to godhood, was almost martyred again, for the same reason (anti-goblin racist hate).
*Made a fuss with the gods about the goblins being given crap, as he had with his mortal peers in life.
*Then tried to peacefully guide his people as best he could.
*When he finally found a means to gain leverage for his people, he acted on it.
Items 1 and 2 are things we are told about secondhand and shown only in crayon. They are myths, not history, and should not be considered as credible as the other items for that reason. That does not mean in-credible, but less so. Item 2 is a thing that happened to the Dark One, though, not a thing that he did.

Item 3 we are told about secondhand and in crayon, but also by a participant in events (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html). It is fairly definitive that the Dark One was nearly destroyed upon becoming a god. Prejudice was also definitively a factor. Redcloak characterizes it as racism, while Thor characterizes it as anti-Evil prejudice. Both have a narrative they're pushing, though Redcloak's is a bit more believable than Thor's. Item 3 is also a thing that happened to the Dark One rather than a thing that he did.

Item 4 we are told about secondhand and in crayon, and it is not corroborated. Thor never mentions the Dark One making a stink about goblins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html). In his telling, the Dark One is almost entirely passive at first - the object of protection by Loki and a few others - then communicated only sporadically with his few allies (to the point where among the Western Gods, only Tiamat ever met him in person), then cut off communication entirely once he learned of the Rifts and concocted the Plan. Thor might be omitting something he doesn't consider important, but it strikes me as more believable that the Dark One never did make that big a stink about goblins, at least to the gods at large. He might have done in the private chat group with Loki, Tiamat, and Rat.

Item 5 doesn't seem to amount to much, but that's true of all gods given how limited their interventions on the Material Plane are. There are three extant examples of the Dark One providing guidance: his transmission of the Plan via the Crimson Mantle, his revelation to Jirix, and his secondhand revelation to Redcloak. The Plan conceives of goblins - or at least the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle - as tools for the Dark One's cosmic ambitions. It has little to say about improving goblin lives in the here and now, and what it does say is "follow my prophet, for he shall lead you to salvation." This may or may not be a lie. The revelation to Jirix is far more dedicated to improving the living conditions of goblins, as well as their power in the world (the two go hand in hand). The secondhand revelation to Redcloak is ambiguous by its terms. It could mean not to screw up Gobbotopia, or not to screw up the Plan. Redcloak takes it as the latter, and the Dark One really should have foreseen that he would, so we can presume that he did so foresee. So the Dark One has multiple balls in the air at this point.

Item 6 refers to the Plan. However, the Plan cannot be a means to gain better living conditions for goblins in this world, because remaking the world would require undoing it. At best, the gods threatened by the Snarl could reveal to their priests ways that the political leaders running their countries could improve the lives of nearby goblins, but there are so many steps involved here - and so many opportunities for free-willed mortals with ingrained prejudices, who may or may not be particularly pious - to screw it up that it cannot possibly by the Dark One's Plan. He sees the Plan as a sure thing. More likely, he's banking on having a seat at the table for the next world's demiurging, rather than directly improving this one.

[Fyraltari]

Then let's name what the Dark One has done?

*In life, he rallied the goblins to bring an end to their suffering.
*Was martyred trying to negotiate for goblinkind.
*Upon ascension to godhood, was almost martyred again, for the same reason (anti-goblin racist hate).
*Made a fuss with the gods about the goblins being given crap, as he had with his mortal peers in life.
*Then tried to peacefully guide his people as best he could.
*When he finally found a means to gain leverage for his people, he acted on it.


*He rallied the goblins. We don't know what he was aiming for. Though his negotiating means that he was either not gunning for "kill all humans" or perceptive enough to know that this war he couldn't win or both.
*Anti-goblin racism? Citation please. Thor tried to kill him because he was A) Evil and B) a killer of Thor's worshippers. Tyr's the racist one, not Thor who has to date never expressed any contempt or ill-will towards goblins. And neither do his priests.
*According to Redcloak. Also it is entirely possible that the Dark One did care for goblins but stopped as time went by and his mortla life became a more distant memory.
*Same as above.
*That's the point though. He found a way for himself to gain Absolute Power over the Cosmos. He will then, he assures the people he needs to do so, help them the goblins once they have helped him. In the meantime he is, however, not objecting to their own leadership killing them in droves. Does that sound like a guy who will keep to his word to you?


What more was he supposed to do?
Tell goblins to keep sitting on their asses as "PCs ruthlessly clear them out of various adventure scenarios"?
Take away Redcloak's powers once it became evident he was going to let Xykon kill as many goblins as he wanted (or when Redcloak joined in and slaughtered the hobgoblins as well) and let the next High Priest try it.



What "results on the goblin people" are you talking about? Because widespread genocide of goblinoids started well before him. Xykon's an ass, but 1) the paladins didn't treat the goblins much better, and 2) The Dark One neither asked for Xykon nor could have predicted him.
But he tolerates the guy! His message to Redcloak by Jirix could have been "Ditch the lich, you have a country now, you can find another arcane spellcaster. Any other. One that will follow you, not the other way around."


So unless you want to argue that the fate of goblinoids is worse since The Plan, for which I'd argue we have no proof of whatsoever
Why would I need to do that? "Is willing to enable a mass-murderer of goblins" is enough evidence to conclude "does not care if goblins live or die".


I don't really see on what legitimate basis Right-Eye can slander the Dark One. And he is far from being without bias, he just has different bias. He lost his family to the Plan. That kind of thing would naturally bias him against the Dark One.
What.
"Why do you think this person can't be trusted.
-He let my family die without saying a word.
-You sound biased."
That's asinine.

It appears from Goblin_Priest's perspective, it's literally impossible for the suggestion that the Dark One isn't a positive figure to be valid.
Points for consistency, I guess.

[CriticalFailure]

People like to assume either Xykon or Redcloak is firmly in control of Team Evil and the other is completely duped, but they’re both trying for the upper hand and neither is in control. It seems like the whole dynamic gets simplified a lot.

Xykon has undisputed direct control due to being the most powerful and ruthless member of Team Evil. Xylophone cares most about direct force and dominance and he’s been effective in rendering Redcloak servile. Redcloak is the most knowledgeable and long term planning oriented member of Team Evil and he has effectively managed to manipulate Xykon into serving his long term goals, both wrt the Plan and also by getting Xykon to stay and let him build Gobbotopia.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Xylophone cares most about direct force and dominance and he’s been effective in rendering Redcloak servile.

Best autocorrect ever.

Grey Wolf

[CriticalFailure]

Oops.

Don’t underestimate the percussive menace!

[Goblin_Priest]

Let me emphasize one thing: I have never said we had irrefutable proof that the Dark One was a great guy. My point was rather that we have never been granted serious reason to doubt any of what was said.


[Spoiler]
Take away Redcloak's powers once it became evident he was going to let Xykon kill as many goblins as he wanted (or when Redcloak joined in and slaughtered the hobgoblins as well) and let the next High Priest try it.

But he tolerates the guy! His message to Redcloak by Jirix could have been "Ditch the lich, you have a country now, you can find another arcane spellcaster. Any other. One that will follow you, not the other way around."

Why would I need to do that? "Is willing to enable a mass-murderer of goblins" is enough evidence to conclude "does not care if goblins live or die".

There were many Crimson Mantle bearers before Redcloak. They all miserably failed to make a difference.

That he's willing to tolerate Redcloak's actions (and Xykon's), who is almost certainly the highest level cleric he ever had by the way, and the only high-level arcane caster he ever had as well, does not, in any way, undermine the given narrative. The Dark One is essentially a warlord. One can't wage war without expecting to suffer some losses. And the widespread persecution of goblinoids is not myth, it's pretty well established.

Also, let's not forget that in this setting, gods are largely mutable, and defined by belief and worship. It would kinda go against established canon to make the Dark One go from "revered also for being a wise and benevolent ruler to the goblins" to somehow being something completely different.

There's no doubt we don't know everything about the Dark One. I'm sure there will be some sort of reveal. But some kind of huge twisted "GOTCHA!"? I don't think so.

[Fyraltari]

Let me emphasize one thing: I have never said we had irrefutable proof that the Dark One was a great guy. My point was rather that we have never been granted serious reason to doubt any of what was said.
It is suspicious that we have never seen him directly and that he doesn't interact personally with Redcloak.




There were many Crimson Mantle bearers before Redcloak. They all miserably failed to make a difference.
The Rifts appeared 66 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) from the story and Redcloak has been Bearer for 34 of them, I doubt there were any Bearers beyond Red and the three before him. And Redcloak's great-grandmaster managed to piss off the paladins enough for them to chase personally after them.



That he's willing to tolerate Redcloak's actions (and Xykon's), who is almost certainly the highest level cleric he ever had by the way, and the only high-level arcane caster he ever had as well, does not, in any way, undermine the given narrative.
Are psions arcane casters? 'Cause the Dark One definitely has one of those (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). And the goblins have a country now. They can simply hire an evil wizard. Redcloak was trying to get Lirian's Gate before he got to the very high-level, neither of them are irreplaceable. It's not like there's an emergency.

The Dark One is essentially a warlord. One can't wage war without expecting to suffer some losses.
An ally killing your own troops is not the danger of war; I thought that was obvious but it needs stating apparently. An alliy who kills your men is a liability at best and an ennemy at worst and a general who needlessly sends his own men to the meat grinder is an incompetent at best and a traitor at worst. The Dark One is not a simple warlord he is a damn good one, the best the goblins ever had in fact, meaning that he knows this. If he doesn't take action then he doesn't care about the losses. If he does not care about the losses then he does not care about the goblins.


And the widespread persecution of goblinoids is not myth, it's pretty well established.
Nobody denied that, why bring it up? Though now that you have done so, I feel the need to point out that the existence of Gobbotopia as a sovereign state and Right-Eye's village show that humans and goblins can co-exist peacefully.


Also, let's not forget that in this setting, gods are largely mutable, and defined by belief and worship. It would kinda go against established canon to make the Dark One go from "revered also for being a wise and benevolent ruler to the goblins" to somehow being something completely different.
I'm pretty sure most goblins don't believe their leaders care about them. Have you read How the Paladin Got his Scar?



There's no doubt we don't know everything about the Dark One. I'm sure there will be some sort of reveal. But some kind of huge twisted "GOTCHA!"? I don't think so.
What do you mean by "huge twisted "GOTCHA!""? Because unless you count "the evil god who let his people die to achieve his goal doesn't actually care about his people" as "GOTCHA!" I don't think anyone proposed that.

[Peelee]

Are psions arcane casters?

No, they're psionic. Short version, there's two kinds of magic in D&D, arcane and divine, unless there are more.

(This may surprise you, but I'm not a big fan of psionics.)

[Kish]

What do you mean by "huge twisted "GOTCHA!""? Because unless you count "the evil god who let his people die to achieve his goal doesn't actually care about his people" as "GOTCHA!" I don't think anyone proposed that.
I think from Goblin_Priest's perspective, the comic is on track for the outcome he describes in his sig. Anything else--by which I primarily mean "the fact that Redcloak is a villain rather than the hero of the comic rising to the level where Goblin_Priest can no longer ignore it" and "the fact that Redcloak's brother was the hero of Start of Darkness rising to the level where Goblin_Priest can no longer ignore it"--will register with him as a "huge twisted GOTCHA." In the same way that if you're standing on your head and insisting that when you tilt your head such that your chin moves further from your chest, what you see is the ceiling, it might feel like a betrayal if someone you were relying on to back you up says, "No, really, that's the floor."

[Fyraltari]

I think from Goblin_Priest's perspective, the comic is on track for the outcome he describes in his sig.
That sig is about LOTR now, in what seems to be an attempt to troll me. What was that again?

Edit:

No, they're psionic. Short version, there's two kinds of magic in D&D, arcane and divine, unless there are more.

(This may surprise you, but I'm not a big fan of psionics.)

Oh. Okay.

[CriticalFailure]

I think “TDO is fixated on revenge and willing to sacrifice goblins to get it” seems highly likely at this point, but I don’t see how him not actually caring about goblins in any sense would work out. They are his entire portfolio as a deity. The idea of there being more reveals about TDO makes sense based on him being kind of mysterious, but it’s hard to think of what particular reveal would actually make sense.

[Kish]

That sig is about LOTR now, in what seems to be an attempt to troll me. What was that again?
Ah, didn't see that. It used to be a prediction that the comic would end with the Order allying with Redcloak to destroy Xykon, Vaarsuvius performing the Dark One's ritual with him, and the Dark One using the Snarl to destroy Hel. As I told Goblin_Priest when he showed up, I'm pretty sure his seeing Hel as the "end-boss" is a matter of him treating the book that was going up on the website when he started reading as "the story" and the previous five books as the "backstory," in the same way when Book 5 was what was going up people kept proposing theories that hinged on Tarquin being the ultimate series villain.

[Fyraltari]

I think “TDO is fixated on revenge and willing to sacrifice goblins to get it” seems highly likely at this point, but I don’t see how him not actually caring about goblins in any sense would work out. They are his entire portfolio as a deity. The idea of there being more reveals about TDO makes sense based on him being kind of mysterious, but it’s hard to think of what particular reveal would actually make sense.
Cattle are a farmer's portfolio yet they don't act in the cattle's best interest.

[CriticalFailure]

Farmers don’t rely on their cattle to worship them, though.

[Fyraltari]

Farmers don’t rely on their cattle to worship them, though.

They rely on thei cattle to trust them, so I think the analogy holds.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Farmers don’t rely on their cattle to worship them, though.

No, they have the Judas Goat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_goat) for that.

Grey Wolf

[CriticalFailure]

I think the analogy kind of misses the mark in terms of the whole LE warlord way of going about things.

[Goblin_Priest]

It is suspicious that we have never seen him directly and that he doesn't interact personally with Redcloak.




The Rifts appeared 66 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) from the story and Redcloak has been Bearer for 34 of them, I doubt there were any Bearers beyond Red and the three before him. And Redcloak's great-grandmaster managed to piss off the paladins enough for them to chase personally after them.



Are psions arcane casters? 'Cause the Dark One definitely has one of those (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). And the goblins have a country now. They can simply hire an evil wizard. Redcloak was trying to get Lirian's Gate before he got to the very high-level, neither of them are irreplaceable. It's not like there's an emergency.

An ally killing your own troops is not the danger of war; I thought that was obvious but it needs stating apparently. An alliy who kills your men is a liability at best and an ennemy at worst and a general who needlessly sends his own men to the meat grinder is an incompetent at best and a traitor at worst. The Dark One is not a simple warlord he is a damn good one, the best the goblins ever had in fact, meaning that he knows this. If he doesn't take action then he doesn't care about the losses. If he does not care about the losses then he does not care about the goblins.


Nobody denied that, why bring it up? Though now that you have done so, I feel the need to point out that the existence of Gobbotopia as a sovereign state and Right-Eye's village show that humans and goblins can co-exist peacefully.


I'm pretty sure most goblins don't believe their leaders care about them. Have you read How the Paladin Got his Scar?



What do you mean by "huge twisted "GOTCHA!""? Because unless you count "the evil god who let his people die to achieve his goal doesn't actually care about his people" as "GOTCHA!" I don't think anyone proposed that.

What would you expect, then, due to not having seen him personally? Thor showed him exactly as the crayons did, in a non-crayon drawing, so I'm not expecting him to look any differently. As for why he doesn't communicate directly with Redcloak... that's an interesting aspect. In SoD, it was said he couldn't interact directly in elven lands. Maybe he's not powerful enough? Maybe there's a surprise reason for it? But it's not as if he doesn't want to, imo, because he did, via Jirix, send Redcloak a message. That just tells me he can't talk to him.

What exactly did his predecessors due to piss off the paladins? Because I'm not aware of anything else than The Plan, of which the paladins clearly have limited understanding of. The Paladins' efforts to thwart the Plan are justified, but the means shown in SoD, much less.

Psions are not (really) arcane casters. The rules are pretty bad for that, because if you use psionics they are completely distinct, but that involves retconning a bunch of otherwise normal magic into psionics. That said, no, I don't think a psion would count.

If Redcloak could simply hire an evil wizard, he would. There's been no indication that he ever has had access to high level arcane casters, other than Xykon and Tsukiko, neither of which really under his authority.

Also to note, the plan wasn't very specific, at first. It was simply: go seize the rift, and hopefully we can make something out of it. The Mantle was created before the gate was built. The perversion of the gate, and thus the need for powerful casters, came later.

None of the goblins lost since Redcloak picked up the role could pull off The Plan. Thor is willing to risk losing the world with his Plan to save it with purple quiddity, the Dark One isn't so different in accepting risk for his own Plan. Redcloak and Xykon are the only ones powerful enough he ever had and was likely to ever have. And being presumably evil, despite being benevolent, one shouldn't be surprised by an "ends justify the means" logic. The pain caused by Xykon to goblinkind is, overall, a drop in the sea.

Gobbotopia was created with Xykon's help, and there's no indication of how long it would last. I'd be tempted to bring up real-world parallels, but I'd rather avoid another conflict with the rules. Needless to say, using a few isolated examples doesn't really counter a rule as a whole. That some places could tolerate goblins does not cancel the mass persecution they suffer world-wide.

I have not read HtPGhS.

Somewhat. The Dark One has never been shown to be hateful. Why bother hiding it if he was? He has evil followers, many of which are hateful themselves. Redcloak hates humans for all the suffering they caused him, why would the Dark One need to hide hating them too? If anything, that'd make him more relatable.


No, they're psionic. Short version, there's two kinds of magic in D&D, arcane and divine, unless there are more.

(This may surprise you, but I'm not a big fan of psionics.)

My main beef with psionics is how inconsistent the rules are about them. They should have been a core mechanic, or completely distinct.


I think “TDO is fixated on revenge and willing to sacrifice goblins to get it” seems highly likely at this point, but I don’t see how him not actually caring about goblins in any sense would work out. They are his entire portfolio as a deity. The idea of there being more reveals about TDO makes sense based on him being kind of mysterious, but it’s hard to think of what particular reveal would actually make sense.

Agreed.

[CriticalFailure]

With regards to finding a new High Priest, the goblin church doesn’t seem to be particularly organized or well coordinated, with the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing and the high priest not necessarily holding a huge amount of power (Redcloak had to win the office of Supreme Leader to lead the hobos, his office didn’t seem to do anything for them, same with the Bugbears). Given the way Redcloak was made high priest I got the impression that a competent and driven goblin with excellent mental stats ending up with the mantle was a big stroke of luck for TDO.

[Fyraltari]

What would you expect, then, due to not having seen him personally? Thor showed him exactly as the crayons did, in a non-crayon drawing, so I'm not expecting him to look any differently.
Not look behaviour. Seeing Hel directly told us she's a petulant self-absorbed tantrum-throwing entitled type. Seeing Thor directly told us he's a goofy but caring and humble type. Seeing the Dark One directly who tell us who he is.

As for why he doesn't communicate directly with Redcloak... that's an interesting aspect. In SoD, it was said he couldn't interact directly in elven lands. Maybe he's not powerful enough? Maybe there's a surprise reason for it? But it's not as if he doesn't want to, imo, because he did, via Jirix, send Redcloak a message. That just tells me he can't talk to him.
His one message was "get back to work". He doesn't want to talk to Redcloak we've seen that Gods can talk to their high priests.


What exactly did his predecessors due to piss off the paladins? Because I'm not aware of anything else than The Plan, of which the paladins clearly have limited understanding of. The Paladins' efforts to thwart the Plan are justified, but the means shown in SoD, much less.
Tried to carry out the plan? As Redcloak's master says they came for him personally just like they came for his master before him and her master before her. Whatever that one did exactly they came close enough that the Paladins have known for a while that the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle is bad news. Probabaly went after the Azure City Gate.




If Redcloak could simply hire an evil wizard, he would.
Okay now I'm starting to question if you have read Start Of Darkness
Redcloak would never dirch Xykon because that would be admitting that he killed his baby brother for no good reason.
That's kind of the issue.

There's been no indication that he ever has had access to high level arcane casters, other than Xykon and Tsukiko, neither of which really under his authority.
He has a country. He knows demons. He can find a wizard if he wants to. He just does not. Hell, he could have hired Zz'dtri! Also there's no indication that the ritual require high-level. Redcloak was going at it before reaching high-level.


Also to note, the plan wasn't very specific, at first. It was simply: go seize the rift, and hopefully we can make something out of it. The Mantle was created before the gate was built. The perversion of the gate, and thus the need for powerful casters, came later.
So?


None of the goblins lost since Redcloak picked up the role could pull off The Plan.
[Citation needed]



Thor is willing to risk losing the world with his Plan to save it with purple quiddity
No he is not. Thor is trying to save the world, remember?


he Dark One isn't so different in accepting risk for his own Plan.
"Risks" as a noun carries a notion of inceritude. Xykon killing goblins isn't incertain.

Redcloak and Xykon are the only ones powerful enough he ever had and was likely to ever have.
[Citation bloody well needed]


And being presumably evil, despite being benevolent, one shouldn't be surprised by an "ends justify the means" logic. The pain caused by Xykon to goblinkind is, overall, a drop in the sea.
You can't be both evil and benevolent, these are direct contradictions.


Gobbotopia was created with Xykon's help[,
I think the word you want is "despite Xykon's help" I'm not sure the number of paladin he killed (who got back on their feet anyway) offsetts the damage he Redcloak did to their own side.


and there's no indication of how long it would last.
It has a powerful military including spellcasters, trade partners and the rest of the continent is afraid of it. Sounds like they could have a good run, especially if they let Cliffport influence their position on slavery.
I'd be tempted to bring up real-world parallels, but I'd rather avoid another conflict with the rules. Needless to say, using a few isolated examples doesn't really counter a rule as a whole. That some places could tolerate goblins does not cancel the mass persecution they suffer world-wide.[/QUOTE]
Nobody suggested it did.



I have not read HtPGhS.
Goblins don't trust in their leaders. Mainly because they don't seem to be trustworthy.



Somewhat. The Dark One has never been shown to be hateful. Why bother hiding it if he was? He has evil followers, many of which are hateful themselves. Redcloak hates humans for all the suffering they caused him, why would the Dark One need to hide hating them too? If anything, that'd make him more relatable.
I'm pretty sure the Dark One isn't hiding his hatred of humans. At least his clergy isn't hiding theirs.

[CriticalFailure]

With respect to The Dark One not talking with Redcloak, it's hard to make firm judgments because Hel is the only deity we've seen interacting with their High Priest. We don't know how much input Malak got from Nergal, nor the High Priest of the 12 Gods or any others. Ordinary clerics haven't been shown to have direct interactions with their deities. So Hel's orders to her high priest could be the exception. Plus didn't Hel basically make the vampire high priest directly when she formed him or whatever?

I tentatively would predict that the relationship between Redcloak and TDO will change in at least one significant way at some point due to the events going on, and that there will probably have to be some sort of increase in communication and perhaps renegotiation between them.

[Fyraltari]

With respect to The Dark One not talking with Redcloak, it's hard to make firm judgments because Hel is the only deity we've seen interacting with their High Priest. We don't know how much input Malak got from Nergal, nor the High Priest of the 12 Gods or any others. Ordinary clerics haven't been shown to have direct interactions with their deities. So Hel's orders to her high priest could be the exception.
However every high priest has received the exact date and coordinate of the Moot when the gods decided on one and Thrym could order his giants to be at a precise pass to ambush a precise airship. Hel communicating clearly with her priests whenn needing to is not the exception here.

Plus didn't Hel basically make the vampire high priest directly when she formed him or whatever?
It's been heavily implied he got to be high priest because there were no other priests at the time.


I tentatively would predict that the relationship between Redcloak and TDO will change in at least one significant way at some point due to the events going on, and that there will probably have to be some sort of increase in communication and perhaps renegotiation between them.
I'm sure one of them will ditch the plan and the other will try to soldier on/have a breakdow. Not sure which ones though.

[Lacuna Caster]

With respect to The Dark One not talking with Redcloak, it's hard to make firm judgments because Hel is the only deity we've seen interacting with their High Priest. We don't know how much input Malak got from Nergal, nor the High Priest of the 12 Gods or any others. Ordinary clerics haven't been shown to have direct interactions with their deities. So Hel's orders to her high priest could be the exception. Plus didn't Hel basically make the vampire high priest directly when she formed him or whatever?
Thor's recent conversation with Durkon suggests that Gods can talk to their priests as long as the latter use a Commune spell and the deity is inclined to answer. (Thrym also communicated with his own clerics, and it's not like summoned outsiders couldn't relay a message (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel#Etymology), in principle.)

[CriticalFailure]

I'm sure one of them will ditch the plan and the other will try to soldier on/have a breakdow. Not sure which ones though.

I think the likelihood of Redcloak having a huge breakdown at some point is very high, almost guaranteed. The Dark One, pretty unlikely imo. It seems like Redcloak's entire character arc basically sets him up for an inevitable meltdown unless he gets ignominiously killed or snarled before things start to get revealed. I think a big question is whether he has the capacity to eventually pull himself together and address whatever new situation arises.

[Goblin_Priest]

Multi quoting multi quoted multi quotes are becoming a nightmare...


Not look behaviour. Seeing Hel directly told us she's a petulant self-absorbed tantrum-throwing entitled type. Seeing Thor directly told us he's a goofy but caring and humble type. Seeing the Dark One directly who tell us who he is.

Hel is the current chapter's antagonist. Thor is an ally. Showing them does not alter the story in the way that showing TDO would, as putting the spotlight on TDO would cast shade on RC.


His one message was "get back to work". He doesn't want to talk to Redcloak we've seen that Gods can talk to their high priests.

We've seen very few gods talk to their followers. None as much as Hel, which may or may not be thanks to her having personally created Durkon*'s soul. Durkon-Thor communication was largely limited. Got any other examples? After all, by D&D RAW, spells to contact deities are fairly high level, and provide fairly crappy communication. Gods being able to have direct casual conversation with their clerics is far more likely to be the exception rather than the norm. Again, case in point with the message via Jirix. Why would TDO tell Jirix to tell Redcloak something if he could just tell RC not to screw things up himself? There's no compelling reason to believe TDO can communicate more than he does.


Okay now I'm starting to question if you have read Start Of Darkness (and spoiler)

That's just your interpretation of it. In the webcomic, there has been several examples of him getting partly past that, and sticking it up to Xykon. And with the conquest of Gobbotopia, he would have plenty of stuff to rationalize his sunk cost. "Teaming with Xykon was necessary, because it allowed us to make enough progress to get us to this point where we don't need him anymore".


He has a country. He knows demons. He can find a wizard if he wants to. He just does not. Hell, he could have hired Zz'dtri! Also there's no indication that the ritual require high-level. Redcloak was going at it before reaching high-level.

Could he have hired Zz'dtri? Really? All we know is that he did not hire another spellcaster, and we have not been shown any other high level caster under his command. You take this to conclude that he doesn't want another spellcaster. I take this to conclude that he can't use another spellcaster. To each his own conclusions from limited evidence. "We haven't seen any high level arcane casters under RC because there aren't any" seems a simpler solution than "We haven't seen any high level arcane casters under RC, but there are some, and he just refuses to use them", to me.


No he is not. Thor is trying to save the world, remember?

Thor cares about the world. TDO cares about the goblins. Both are willing to risk existence to save what they care about.


"Risks" as a noun carries a notion of inceritude. Xykon killing goblins isn't incertain.

Trolley dilemma, then? Maybe he prefers steering the trolley into rolling over a few goblins instead of having it run over a whole lot of them. Xykon offers an end to the cycle of genocide. As one leader of a prominent occidental nation supposedly once said, "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch.".


[Citation bloody well needed]

On the account of high level characters being extremely rare in this setting?


You can't be both evil and benevolent, these are direct contradictions.

Hey, I'm just spilling quotes on this one. Though, again, if you present a benevolent leader with the trolley dilemma, what do you expect him to do?


I think the word you want is "despite Xykon's help" I'm not sure the number of paladin he killed (who got back on their feet anyway) offsetts the damage he Redcloak did to their own side.

He killed a lot of paladins that could have helped the defenses otherwise. Without his presence, Miko wouldn't have shattered the gem, and so the ghost martyrs wouldn't have been defeated. His presence focused many of the Order away from the outer walls. And that's just what we saw on-screen during the battle.

There was also the "before battle". He made sure that the sentries did not alert the city of the incoming army.

After the battle, remarks were made about Gobbotopia's readiness (or not) for RC and Xykon's departure.

Many points were made about Xykon's contributions to this conquest, even if we didn't see him flying above the defenders casting a bunch of chain lightnings against numberless defenders.

[hroþila]

We've seen very few gods talk to their followers. None as much as Hel, which may or may not be thanks to her having personally created Durkon*'s soul. Durkon-Thor communication was largely limited. Got any other examples? After all, by D&D RAW, spells to contact deities are fairly high level, and provide fairly crappy communication. Gods being able to have direct casual conversation with their clerics is far more likely to be the exception rather than the norm. Again, case in point with the message via Jirix. Why would TDO tell Jirix to tell Redcloak something if he could just tell RC not to screw things up himself? There's no compelling reason to believe TDO can communicate more than he does.
When you look at the cross section between "gods that communicate" and "gods that have had clerics appear on the comic", what we see is that communication is not all that rare. You mentioned Hel-Durkon and Thor-Other Durkon. There's also Thrym instructing his clerics to ambush the Mechane, all the high priests getting the info on the Godsmoot, Odin's high priest getting the prophecy about Durkon, Hilgya being told by Loki where to find Durkon, and (outside the realm of clerics) Sangwaan getting visions from Rooster. And perhaps others I'm forgetting.

As for the question of why the Dark One would need Jirix as a messenger, one possible answer has been theorized: because communication must be initiated by the cleric, and Redcloak is afraid of being told he's doing something wrong. The Dark One may disapprove of things Redcloak is doing while still thinking it's not so bad that he should take away his spells when his goal is within sight.

[KorvinStarmast]

No, they're psionic. Short version, there's two kinds of magic in D&D, arcane and divine, unless there are more.

(This may surprise you, but I'm not a big fan of psionics.) Psionics is SF style magic kludged into Swords and Sorcery genre. (Kask and Gygax confirmed this in an interview some years ago). It's no surprise that it often has a "does not quite fit" feel to it, though 3.5 went a long way to trying to make it a better fit.

A point made further by another poster:

the part of the Plan where both he and the Dark One are prepared to count the obliteration of every goblin soul on the planet as a win
If all worshippers of TDO perish, doesn't he lose food/power? Thor explained the deity food pyramid here.
Belief, worship, dedication souls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html)
He loses 3 of 4 sources of nourishment if the world is destroyed.

[Kish]

As for the question of why the Dark One would need Jirix as a messenger, one possible answer has been theorized: because communication must be initiated by the cleric, and Redcloak is afraid of being told he's doing something wrong. The Dark One may disapprove of things Redcloak is doing while still thinking it's not so bad that he should take away his spells when his goal is within sight.
Or the Dark One may wholeheartedly approve of everything Redcloak is doing, including condoning the casual slaughter of goblinoids by Xykon, and Redcloak may, whether he acknowledges it or not, fear learning that far more than he fears his god's disapproval.

[Angrith]

I also see no reason to doubt that what we know of The Plan is true, namely that the Dark One will use the Snarl to blackmail the gods and/or unmake reality to have a shot at goblin rights in the next world. For the Giant to have some twist reveal where the Dark one is actually going to murder the pantheons shifts the "final boss" focus onto him instead of Xykon in the final book.

Instead, I think the Dark One's lack of involvement or communication to Redcloak about the numerous goblin deaths points to the same flaw that Redcloak possesses: The Dark One cares about the goblin people but not goblin persons. He doesn't care how many goblins are slaughtered now because future goblins will have a better life. This jives well with The Plan B, blow up the world.

[Goblin_Priest]

Of note:


Divination
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF, XP
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. (A cleric of no particular deity contacts a philosophically allied deity.) You are allowed one such question per caster level. The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. “Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity’s interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.

The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes. If you lag, discuss the answers, or go off to do anything else, the spell ends.
Material Component

Holy (or unholy) water and incense.
XP Cost

100 XP.[quote]

Commune costs XP, and grants barely anything.

[QUOTE=hroþila;23783768]When you look at the cross section between "gods that communicate" and "gods that have had clerics appear on the comic", what we see is that communication is not all that rare. You mentioned Hel-Durkon and Thor-Other Durkon. There's also Thrym instructing his clerics to ambush the Mechane, all the high priests getting the info on the Godsmoot, Odin's high priest getting the prophecy about Durkon, Hilgya being told by Loki where to find Durkon, and (outside the realm of clerics) Sangwaan getting visions from Rooster. And perhaps others I'm forgetting.

As for the question of why the Dark One would need Jirix as a messenger, one possible answer has been theorized: because communication must be initiated by the cleric, and Redcloak is afraid of being told he's doing something wrong. The Dark One may disapprove of things Redcloak is doing while still thinking it's not so bad that he should take away his spells when his goal is within sight.

Durkon's communication with Thor has been very limited. He needed to outright die before they had a good conversation. We have no idea how Loki communicated with Hilgya, same with the others. And there are all far older and more powerful gods than TDO.

There's a reason why even high level cleric magic offers little communication with gods: it's story breaking. "Oh, hol' up guys, lemme just give a quick call to my GOD and ask him what to do". Sure, that powerful gods may have powerful messengers is one thing, but direct communication for all clerics? Nonsense.

I don't dislike the suggestion that maybe contact is possible, but needs to be cleric-initiated, and that RC is just too afraid to do so. Has many merits.


Psionics is SF style magic kludged into Swords and Sorcery genre. (Kask and Gygax confirmed this in an interview some years ago). It's no surprise that it often has a "does not quite fit" feel to it, though 3.5 went a long way to trying to make it a better fit.

A point made further by another poster:
If all worshippers of TDO perish, doesn't he lose food/power? Thor explained the deity food pyramid here.
Belief, worship, dedication souls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html)
He loses 3 of 4 sources of nourishment if the world is destroyed.

It stands to reason that TDO isn't aware of the sheer number of failed universes, and of the fate of lesser/newer gods in the process of world re-creation. He might not be so open to it if he knew. Though discounting the fact that he'd probably not survive, as he doesn't know that, recreation has benefits that aren't available in this current world, such as fixing the monstrous (particularly goblinoid) races. The +1 level adjustment for hobgoblins being mentioned in SoD, for example. That's a kind of systematic injustice that you can't undo without going back to the drawing board. He could very well think "well, millions will die when we undo the world, but it will save countless for aeons to come in the next."

[Fyraltari]

Multi
No,

quoting I
multi still
quoted find
multi it
quotes manageable
are myself;
becoming others
a may
nightmare disagree
... though.


Hel is the current chapter's antagonist. Thor is an ally. Showing them does not alter the story in the way that showing TDO would, as putting the spotlight on TDO would cast shade on RC.
Durkon* was the main antagonist, not Hel. Their relationship is exactly analoguous to Redcloak and the Dark One's. For example, Red's exposition talk to Jirix about why he was torturing O-Chul could very well have been done with the Dark One without diminishing Red's stature within the narrative.




We've seen very few gods talk to their followers. None as much as Hel, which may or may not be thanks to her having personally created Durkon*'s soul. Durkon-Thor communication was largely limited. Got any other examples? After all, by D&D RAW, spells to contact deities are fairly high level, and provide fairly crappy communication. Gods being able to have direct casual conversation with their clerics is far more likely to be the exception rather than the norm. Again, case in point with the message via Jirix. Why would TDO tell Jirix to tell Redcloak something if he could just tell RC not to screw things up himself? There's no compelling reason to believe TDO can communicate more than he does.
hroþila covered the other examples. As for why the Dark One would use Jirix, well he was there and headed for Redcloak anyway and the message wasn't particularly urgent.




That's just your interpretation of it. In the webcomic, there has been several examples of him getting partly past that, and sticking it up to Xykon.
Are you serious? Redclaok still looks at his reflection saying "It will be worth it, you'll see". He is not over anything he still refuses to acknowledges he was wrong to ally with the lich.

And with the conquest of Gobbotopia, he would have plenty of stuff to rationalize his sunk cost. "Teaming with Xykon was necessary, because it allowed us to make enough progress to get us to this point where we don't need him anymore".
Founding Gobbotopia is not why he did what he did and he knows it.





Could he have hired Zz'dtri? Really?
Yes? He already hired the Linear Guild once. Zzd'tri is a hig-level arcane spellcaster who likes money and is much more stable and unassuming than Xykon, how hard do you think it would be to convince him to switch team?

All we know is that he did not hire another spellcaster, and we have not been shown any other high level caster under his command. You take this to conclude that he doesn't want another spellcaster. I take this to conclude that he can't use another spellcaster. To each his own conclusions from limited evidence. "We haven't seen any high level arcane casters under RC because there aren't any" seems a simpler solution than "We haven't seen any high level arcane casters under RC, but there are some, and he just refuses to use them", to me.
This despite an entire book centered of Redcloak concluding on Redcloak caving in to a character telling him he will never be free of him? You really think that Redcloak getting over that would happen without any fanfare? We know there are high-level evil spellcasters about (Zz'dtri, Miron, arguably Grubblewigler, Ydranna if she's still alive, the Ancient Black Dragon) and Gbbotopia is a continental power while Redcloakis the High Priest of an evil god, if he wanted to get in touch with one he could have.





Thor cares about the world. TDO cares about the goblins. Both are willing to risk existence to save what they care about.
Again Thor's efforts are directing towards preventing the end of existence while the Dark One's actions make the prospect more and more likely, these are not analoguous. Also we've seen Thor do his best to rescue the dwarves from Hel when the Dark One is confortable sending the goblins to their deaths and enabling their murderer. One cares, who does not.




Trolley dilemma, then? Maybe he prefers steering the trolley into rolling over a few goblins instead of having it run over a whole lot of them. Xykon offers an end to the cycle of genocide. As one leader of a prominent occidental nation supposedly once said, "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch.".
Except he's very not their son of a bitch, since he is actively killing them. Ditch him and get someone else.





On the account of high level characters being extremely rare in this setting?
Rare maybe, but not extremely, the Order has run in at least a dozen. Also I'd need your source on the what level is required to cast the spell and why it would be egregious for soemone other than Redcloak and Xykon to reach it. Kepp in mind Redcloak was going at it long before he got to high levels.




Hey, I'm just spilling quotes on this one. Though, again, if you present a benevolent leader with the trolley dilemma, what do you expect him to do?
The Dark One is evil, that's confirmed in comic. He isn't benevolent, words have meaning.




He killed a lot of paladins that could have helped the defenses otherwise. Without his presence, Miko wouldn't have shattered the gem, and so the ghost martyrs wouldn't have been defeated. His presence focused many of the Order away from the outer walls. And that's just what we saw on-screen during the battle.

There was also the "before battle". He made sure that the sentries did not alert the city of the incoming army.

After the battle, remarks were made about Gobbotopia's readiness (or not) for RC and Xykon's departure.

Many points were made about Xykon's contributions to this conquest, even if we didn't see him flying above the defenders casting a bunch of chain lightnings against numberless defenders.
Point concede for the watchtowers but most of those paladins were small fries and Redcloak and Xykon killed a huge number of hobgoblins. The Only member of the Order who left the walls because of Xykon was Roy.

EDIT:

Of note:
Commune costs XP, and grants barely anything.
Your quote is broken.



Durkon's communication with Thor has been very limited. He needed to outright die before they had a good conversation. We have no idea how Loki communicated with Hilgya, same with the others. And there are all far older and more powerful gods than TDO.
I really doubt Dvalinis more powerful than the Dark One. I also doubt it takes much power to create a magic video call, at least not on a divine scale where a 9-th spell slot is considered "a drop or so" of the Dark One's power.


There's a reason why even high level cleric magic offers little communication with gods: it's story breaking. "Oh, hol' up guys, lemme just give a quick call to my GOD and ask him what to do". Sure, that powerful gods may have powerful messengers is one thing, but direct communication for all clerics? Nonsense.
Nobody said all Clerics. Redcloak is the High Priest and his main agent, that deserves special treatment.


I don't dislike the suggestion that maybe contact is possible, but needs to be cleric-initiated, and that RC is just too afraid to do so. Has many merits.
It does.

[CriticalFailure]

This is kind of off topic but it makes you wonder... When it comes to the genre/world/plot awareness that exists in this universe, Redcloak seems to be aware that he is in the villain role, as does Xykon. Xykon knows he's in the role of "super duper evil big bag guy without redeeming characteristics" and loves it, and they both know that Redcloak is motivated by "evil for a good cause crap," but do you think they are aware when it comes to the whole self aware stick figures thing that Redcloak seems to specifically fit into the role of "tragic villain?" It also made me wonder if Elan, being much more aware of dramatic conventions, will end up realizing that and somehow using the difference in dramatic conventions between the "unfathomably evil overlord villain" and the "tragic villain" to the Order's advantage somehow?

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Hmm... well, Elan might see it if he had more exposure to Team Evil, but he hasn't. He wasn't in Azure City while Redcloak was in charge like Haley was, and she probably didn't think about it enough to notice. Even if Elan had occasion to see Xykon and Redcloak's relationship and categorize it, he probably wouldn't abuse it for some strategic advantage. That's more Tarquin's thing.

Genre savvy or no, I think Redcloak's long past the point where he expects to survive this ordeal of his. For the sake of the plan, he's willing to die and he's willing to let the world end, which is good because those are the two most likely tropes his fate can fall into.

Also, re: Xykon:

What's the one thing that looks even better on an evil resume than ruling the whole damn world?

[factotum]

This is kind of off topic but it makes you wonder... When it comes to the genre/world/plot awareness that exists in this universe, Redcloak seems to be aware that he is in the villain role, as does Xykon.

I don't think either of them know they're villains, per se, but they *do* know they're Evil and are unapologetic about that. Redcloak, in particular, believes everything he's doing is for the greater good of the goblinoid peoples, even though he knows the means he's using are thoroughly Evil.

[Bulbo]

I got this feeling that the dark one is being tricked somehow. Once the gods get some purple from redcloak, they won't need the Dark One anymore.

[factotum]

I got this feeling that the dark one is being tricked somehow. Once the gods get some purple from redcloak, they won't need the Dark One anymore.

If it were Loki presenting this plan to Durkon, then yes, but Thor is Good--he's very unlikely to use another god's power and then discard them like a used sweet wrapper.

[Goblin_Priest]

"And so the good gods tricked the Dark One, foiled his plans, locked away the Snarl forever, and then everyone lived happily ever after, murdering goblinoids whenever they felt like it"

Would feel like a very cheap and unsatisfying ending.

Thor mentionned about patching up future rifts as they come. I think they'll need the Dark One every time they do that, and not just one spell slot from just now.

[Fyraltari]

I got this feeling that the dark one is being tricked somehow. Once the gods get some purple from redcloak, they won't need the Dark One anymore.

Thor being suddenly revealed as Evil, now that's a dumb twist.

[CriticalFailure]

Xylem and Redcloak both mention that heroes show up to fight their villainous plots; it’s pretty fair to say they are both aware of being evil and aware of being in the villain role.

With what I said about Elan, I was more speculating about what might happen when the order learns more about Team Evil. TE and OOTS currently don’t know much about each other, but it seems fairly likely that they will.

Durkon’s talk with Thor seems to be the first OOTS has heard about Redcloak being more than a particularly powerful minion.

[zimmerwald1915]

"And so the good gods tricked the Dark One, foiled his plans, locked away the Snarl forever, and then everyone lived happily ever after, murdering goblinoids whenever they felt like it"

Would feel like a very cheap and unsatisfying ending.
Sure - if the story was about Redcloak and not Roy Greenhilt.

[Fyraltari]

The goblins' situation not improving would be an unsatisfying ending.

[Keltest]

Sure - if the story was about Redcloak and not Roy Greenhilt.

Stories are as much about the villains as they are the heroes. Redcloak may not be the main character, but its unlikely that the problems that led to his "creation" will be left totally unaddressed.

[Goblin_Priest]

Stories are as much about the villains as they are the heroes. Redcloak may not be the main character, but its unlikely that the problems that led to his "creation" will be left totally unaddressed.

Indeed. A lot has been put into the display of the unfair and horrible treatment of goblinoids. Going back to their wanton genocide would not fit the ending of a morally Good quest/story.

What form this would take, though, I cannot say.

[CriticalFailure]

^^ yeah, the attitude towards goblins and subsequent goblinoid Plan and Redcloak seeking to complete it seem to be an integral part of the plot - Redcloak gets a whole book where he basically puts in motion the entire gate related plot after all. Not to mention it seems to be integral to the themes of the book.

Given that the creation of goblins in d&d/the stick universe just to be adventurer fodder is one of the overarching themes and basically instigated the whole gate plot, it seems unlikely the story will end without addressing it.

I mean, without the goblin thing there’s no plan, Redcloak doesn’t get his rapid promotion to high priest and doesn’t need an arcane caster, and the Order tracks down Xykon and either must defeat an elderly human sorcerer who doesn’t really have any grand evil schemes and just likes wreaking havoc, or they find Xykon already died of old age and they don’t have anything to actually do. The end.

[hroþila]

An occasional point of criticism however is that we barely see that part of the plot in the main comic, as most of it is contained within SoD (plus the semi-recent addition of HtPGHS). While personally I'm sure it'll be a crucial part of the next book, I'm not surprised if some readers don't consider it all that important.

[Goblin_Priest]

An occasional point of criticism however is that we barely see that part of the plot in the main comic, as most of it is contained within SoD (plus the semi-recent addition of HtPGHS). While personally I'm sure it'll be a crucial part of the next book, I'm not surprised if some readers don't consider it all that important.

It's the motivation for the villain's quest, which itself is the quest the heroes are on to stop. I'd have a hard time seeing how to dismiss it, even without the paid books. Though it might make sense if it takes more space in the next book, specifically to address the issue of those people not being quite in the loop about it.

Also, I think there's a strong parallel to do with How the Paladin Got his Scar. I don't think the moral of that story was meant to be "if O-Chul hadn't stood in the way, Azure City would still stand today". ;)

[B. Dandelion]

This is kind of off topic but it makes you wonder... When it comes to the genre/world/plot awareness that exists in this universe, Redcloak seems to be aware that he is in the villain role, as does Xykon. Xykon knows he's in the role of "super duper evil big bag guy without redeeming characteristics" and loves it, and they both know that Redcloak is motivated by "evil for a good cause crap," but do you think they are aware when it comes to the whole self aware stick figures thing that Redcloak seems to specifically fit into the role of "tragic villain?" It also made me wonder if Elan, being much more aware of dramatic conventions, will end up realizing that and somehow using the difference in dramatic conventions between the "unfathomably evil overlord villain" and the "tragic villain" to the Order's advantage somehow?

I don't think Redcloak sees himself as a "tragic" villain because he's convinced he's in the right. He does understand that he's a bad guy by the logic of the rules, but he may operate under a somewhat warped definition of evil anyway, since he defines it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) simply as being opposed to those "who choose to call themselves good". If you see "Good" and "Evil" as team jerseys, a term like "tragic villain" loses much of its meaning.

Xykon just views Redcloak's "evil but for a good cause" shtick as total crap that makes him a weakling. He's not exactly wrong.

I can't offhand think of a way for Elan to use something out of the "tragic villain" vs "complete monster" difference between them to their advantage, except that backstabbing between the two is probably guaranteed, even more than might be expected for a typical Big Bad and his second-in-command. He might be able to guess at Redcloak tricking Xykon somehow. Since Thor's already told Durkon that the goblin Plan is to send the Snarl to the gods rather than tame it, the Order could put two and two together there. He might also guess at Xykon having his own schemes against Redcloak. Hypothetically they might be able to drive a wedge between the two villains. Or maybe predict and stop one of the countermeasures from firing off.

[Gilded_Mage]

I believe the dark one would be hard to convince. I'm guessing when the party catches up to the villains in Azure City and explains to at least Redcloak, Xykon wouldn't probably care and would want to world to end and this is where we might get the epic final battle of Roy vs Xykon. I am willing to believe as long as the party promise and other government official to recognize goblins, hobgoblins and the such as standard race like of humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, etc then he would be willing to help them. Since you know the world ending will put Redcloak's efforts to get goblins seen as equals would have been pointless.

[Angrith]

I believe the dark one would be hard to convince. I'm guessing when the party catches up to the villains in Azure City and explains to at least Redcloak, Xykon wouldn't probably care and would want to world to end and this is where we might get the epic final battle of Roy vs Xykon. I am willing to believe as long as the party promise and other government official to recognize goblins, hobgoblins and the such as standard race like of humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, etc then he would be willing to help them. Since you know the world ending will put Redcloak's efforts to get goblins seen as equals would have been pointless.

Unfortunately, I doubt that Redcloak will just give up on The Plan that easily. Before he murdered his brother, sure he would move on fairly easily. Also, we've been shown that Redcloak acknowledges the possibility of snarling the world. He is "willing to be on the longshot" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) and sees the Dark One helping with the next creation as a satisfying plan B.

What Redcloak doesn't know, is that the Dark One probably won't survive until the next world. If he can be convinced of that, then maybe he has a chance at a change of heart.

[CriticalFailure]

What Redcloak doesn't know, is that the Dark One probably won't survive until the next world. If he can be convinced of that, then maybe he has a chance at a change of heart.

A change of heart and a mental breakdown.

[Goblin_Priest]

A change of heart and a mental breakdown.

Maybe, but not necessarily. I mean, all that's going on is basically a result of The Plan. If they get better conditions for the goblinoids without actually having to pervert a gate, but merely with the threat of doing so... that's pretty in line with what's being striven for. Basically, it's just one-upping it, replacing "I will take control of a gate and threaten to destroy the gods with it" with "I will threaten to take control of a gate and destroy the gods with it".

I also can't help but wonder where the planet in the rift will fit into all of this. Goblinoid utopia as part of the settlement deal?

[Fyraltari]

No it’s not. Thor would still do what he tries to do without Redcloak having done anything.

[CriticalFailure]

If they get better conditions for the goblinoids without actually having to pervert a gate, but merely with the threat of doing so... that's pretty in line with what's being striven for. Basically, it's just one-upping it, replacing "I will take control of a gate and threaten to destroy the gods with it" with "I will threaten to take control of a gate and destroy the gods with it".

I also can't help but wonder where the planet in the rift will fit into all of this. Goblinoid utopia as part of the settlement deal?


I think if he realizes The Plan as its understood now was not going to work he'll definitely have a mental breakdown related to everything he's done for Xykon.

Also wonder where the planet in the rift will fit in. I had wondered if TDO might get control of areas around the rifts but that doesn't deal with the planet.

I do think that characters will go to the world in the rifts and will get access to stuff made with green quiddity in there, resulting in some sort of final 5 quiddity solution.

[Rrmcklin]

I also can't help but wonder where the planet in the rift will fit into all of this. Goblinoid utopia as part of the settlement deal?

"Because remember kids, segregation is always the answer!" Even setting aside the bad messaging, if that actually were the planet in the Rifts' purpose, it would just be really lame and anti-climactic.

[CriticalFailure]

"Because remember kids, segregation is always the answer!" Even setting aside the bad messaging, if that actually were the planet in the Rifts' purpose, it would just be really lame and anti-climactic.

That's the primary reason I don't think the goblins will go to live in the rift world. Thematically I don't see how the final solution won't involve cooeration.

[LadyEowyn]

I think Redcloak and TDO will both be initially highly resistant to Thor’s idea, because Thor isn’t actually offering them anything. He’s offering them the chance to maintain a deeply unjust status quo. Moreover, Thor’s plan won’t happen because “keep patching the holes in reality indefinitely” isn’t a narratively satisfying solution.

The solution to the Snarl is going to be making TDO an equal partner in shaping the world, so that not just the Gate but the world is a four-quiddity construct and the Snarl can therefore never break out.

I can see both TDO and Redcloak ultimately agreeing with that (though not without some major anguish and self-reflection on Redcloak’s part), with Xykon being the main obstacle to accomplishing it. This lines up with Rich saying that Xykon is the main villain.

I agree that Xykon is well aware that Redcloak plans to double-cross him, but Xykon doesn’t know the nature of the double-cross. Xykon’s expecting Redcloak to try to seize the “ultimate power” of controlling the Snarl for himself; he has no idea that both the Plan and the Snarl are utterly useless to him, and he’ll be furious when he finds out.

[Peelee]

I think Redcloak and TDO will both be initially highly resistant to Thor’s idea, because Thor isn’t actually offering them anything.

While I agree with the first part, Thor is absolutely offering something; the fact that TDO already has an ultimate bargaining chip. If, for any reason, he abandons the plan, Sunk Cost Reddie would not react well, I'd wager.

[LadyEowyn]

TDO needs to use that bargaining chip, though. Which means not agreeing to Thor’s plan in its current state, but instead holding out for concessions before agreeing to assist.

The thing with the Sunk Cost Fallacy is that Redcloak doesn’t actually know of any alternatives to the Plan that will address goblinoids’ built-in metaphysical inequality. His attachment to the Plan is basically an unwillingness to walk away and accept the status quo - and the status quo should not and will not be accepted - as well as the less-justifiable unwillingness to ditch Xykon and gamble on being able find another high-level arcane caster.

Learning that there is genuine alternative to the Plan that doesn’t require Xykon - and that the Plan may not work at all - is going to hit him very hard, and I think it’s still up in the air how he’ll deal with it. Refusal is certainly a possibility, but it’s not the only one. Cooperation with the Order is also possible, because Redcloak really hates Xykon and wants to be rid of him as soon as possible.

[Rrmcklin]

TDO needs to use that bargaining chip, though. Which means not agreeing to Thor’s plan in its current state, but instead holding out for concessions before agreeing to assist.

The thing with the Sunk Cost Fallacy is that Redcloak doesn’t actually know of any alternatives to the Plan that will address goblinoids’ built-in metaphysical inequality. His attachment to the Plan is basically an unwillingness to walk away and accept the status quo - and the status quo should not and will not be accepted - as well as the less-justifiable unwillingness to ditch Xykon and gamble on being able find another high-level arcane caster.

Learning that there is genuine alternative to the Plan that doesn’t require Xykon - and that the Plan may not work at all - is going to hit him very hard, and I think it’s still up in the air how he’ll deal with it. Refusal is certainly a possibility, but it’s not the only one. Cooperation with the Order is also possible, because Redcloak really hates Xykon and wants to be rid of him as soon as possible.


I understand why Redcloak would view "walk away from the plan that has costs countless goblinoid lives" as equivalent to "accept the status quo" because that's one of the only things keeping him sane as he justifies going forward with it.

I don't understand how the readers would come to the same conclusion, which seems to be what you've said here, if I'm not mistaken. Though, you seem to be describing a much more optimistic view of the character of Redcloak than I have.

Because abandoning the Plan, in no way implies that he (or any of the others) have just accept the status quo - it just means they have to find something else to do. Which wouldn't be easy, obviously, you created a very glaring false dichotomy on what Redcloak's options actually are, and what they actually would be even without the information that we currently have.

[LadyEowyn]

When Redcloak’s been asked to walk away from the Plan - for example, by Right-Eye, in the village with the circus - it’s been presented in terms of accepting the metaphysical status quo and making the best of it, or else in terms of finding an arcane caster other than Xykon.

There’s also the option, now, of “give up the Plan and focus on Gobbotopia”, which addresses goblins’ geopoloitical disadvantages but not the disadvantages that have been built-in to the design of goblins as a species.

It’s not as though we’ve seen - up until the recent strips - any ways apart from the Plan of convincing or impelling the gods to fundamentally rejig the structure of the universe. That’s why the reveal that such an alternative exists is such a game-changer.

[CriticalFailure]

I guess the question is, if Redcloak realizes there is another way to change the status quo and that the plan would never have worked, how does he respond? Though "how close is Redcloak to a breakdown and how is he preventing that from occurring" could probably be a whole thread of its own.

[B. Dandelion]

I think the existence of Gobbotopia gives Redcloak a potential kind of mental escape hatch, in that he could plausibly reason that the founding of a nation ultimately made the sacrifices of the Plan, and the alliance with Xykon, "worth it" after all, even if the Plan itself isn't actually seen to completion. (Remember that if it weren't for Xykon, he wouldn't ever have known that there were Gates other than Lirian's in the first place.) The whole ostensible purpose of the Gate plan was to give the goblins leverage over the gods, which they have now anyway since the gods need the use of the Dark One's unique quiddity + Redcloak's 9th-level spell slots.

Which is why my theory for a while has been that something awful is going to happen to Gobbotopia, since we can't have that. Setting him back to having accomplished nothing but death for his people is what makes the revelation that the Plan couldn't have worked as devastating as possible.

[Jasdoif]

I guess the question is, if Redcloak realizes there is another way to change the status quo and that the plan would never have worked, how does he respond?In my estimation...he most likely adjusts his aim slightly, and purposefully tries to destroy the last Gate.

[Rrmcklin]

Regarding the Redcloak and Xykon discussion, though I don't know how much it will actually matter for the specific topic (that I posed myself), I will say that Redcloak seems to have genuinely deluded himself into thinking that, although he has to suffer some indignities to do it, he's ultimately the one in control of the situation and Xykon.

I expect that at some point that delusion will come crumbling down around him because, ultimately, Xykon is the main villain of the series, not Redcloak. With that perspective in mind I actually could see an angle for Redcloak to accept the offer to work seal the Rifts, try and off Xykon, only for things to go not so well.

I'm not sure how likely I find a scenario like that at this point though. I also find it interesting how it seems like a fair number of fans also have bought into Redcloak's delusion about his position (not targeted at anyone specifically in this thread, just for clarification), but that's a different matter.

[LadyEowyn]

On the one hand, Xykon’s the one in control of Team Evil, and is the one calling the shots, undisputably.

On the other hand, Redcloak’s managed to rope Xykon into expending decades on a plot that poses no ultimate benefit whatsoever to Xykon.

[CriticalFailure]

In my estimation...he most likely adjusts his aim slightly, and purposefully tries to destroy the last Gate.

I was thinking if Xykon learns the plan is no use to him and Redcloak doesn't learn that TDO won't survive the interworld period he will likely try to do that. With the implication that he would like to just be snarled after learning everything he did and went through was for naught?

[Jasdoif]

I was thinking if Xykon learns the plan is no use to him and Redcloak doesn't learn that TDO won't survive the interworld period he will likely try to do that. With the implication that he would like to just be snarled after learning everything he did and went through was for naught?Yes, but I don't think the specific conditions are necessary.Redcloak's motivation is to not feel quite so bad about murdering his little brother, by convincing himself it was worth it. He murdered Right-Eye to support Xykon to fulfill the Plan; if fulfilling the Plan with Xykon is no longer on the table, his idea that destroying the world is enough since the Dark One will have a hand in the next one is all he's got left, however unlikely the Dark One's chances of surviving that long might be...and if his soul is expunged by the Snarl, he won't be around in an afterlife to reflect on his failures.

[CriticalFailure]

Yes, but I don't think the specific conditions are necessary.Redcloak's motivation is to not feel quite so bad about murdering his little brother, by convincing himself it was worth it. He murdered Right-Eye to support Xykon to fulfill the Plan; if fulfilling the Plan with Xykon is no longer on the table, his idea that destroying the world is enough since the Dark One will have a hand in the next one is all he's got left, however unlikely the Dark One's chances of surviving that long might be...and if his soul is expunged by the Snarl, he won't be around in an afterlife to reflect on his failures.

Yes, I agree - I was mainly referring to The Plan (A) as opposed to Plan B, destroying the gates. I think anything that puts The Plan (A) off the table will definitely result in him trying to destroy the gates, particularly because it would mean everything involving Xykon was unnecessary.

I think that actually makes RC getting snarled very unlikely, and also makes him more likely to survive. It would seem like a cop-out if he were to get snarled or die without having to face the consequences of his actions and accept that it wasn't worth it. Also, a lot of people seem to have suggested some sort of ultimate sacrifice as his death, but that would sort of seem to subvert all of the stuff about him being willing to sacrifice everything in his obsession and that being bad. Having a character already willing to sacrifice their life and more sacrifice their life for something the heroes support instead just seems like it wouldn't really be that dramatic.

[5crownik007]

"Because remember kids, segregation is always the answer!" Even setting aside the bad messaging, if that actually were the planet in the Rifts' purpose, it would just be really lame and anti-climactic.

I agree that it would be lame and anti-climactic, but if the goblins went to live on the rift's planet, that wouldn't be segregation unless you go by the literal word definition, in which case all national borders are segregation. There's no moral issue with claiming uninhabited territory, the moral issue comes in when the goblins are slaughtered by other races or vice versa.

But yeah, that would be a sucky ending.

[Goblin_Priest]

"Because remember kids, segregation is always the answer!" Even setting aside the bad messaging, if that actually were the planet in the Rifts' purpose, it would just be really lame and anti-climactic.


I agree that it would be lame and anti-climactic, but if the goblins went to live on the rift's planet, that wouldn't be segregation unless you go by the literal word definition, in which case all national borders are segregation. There's no moral issue with claiming uninhabited territory, the moral issue comes in when the goblins are slaughtered by other races or vice versa.

But yeah, that would be a sucky ending.

Right, a goblinoid utopia would be badwrong segregation. The more ethical solution is good ol' colonialism, right? Save the goblins from themselves, dissolve them in a larger human-based nation. That fixes all injustices, right?

Wait a minute...

The humans, the elves, the dwarves, they all basically have their own nations. Several each, really. Some are multiracial, namely the human ones (because humans represent diversity I guess), while others, like the dwarven and elven ones, seem much more, uhm... systemically racist?

In any case, the goblinoids have shown a clear affinity for living exclusively with their own. And they've been told to have had mostly scraps the other races didn't want. And even if some examples were shown about how they sometimes managed to thrive (ex: hobgoblin settlement near Azure City), other evidence (How the Paladin got his Scar) also showed that they too had been persecuted and nearly wiped off. This planet could very well be some kind of zionic salvation, a promised land where they could live free from threats of invasion. Redcloak being the savior that split the planes to lead his people to freedom.

It's not a perfect theory, though. Rounding up all the goblinoids and shipping them off through a sketchy rift in reality feels sketchy at best. It also involves abandoning all they have managed to pull off. It also kinda assumes they all want to join this goblinoid Wakanda. The bugbears, for example, seem content where they are. Furthermore, this place seems disconnected from the gods, thus would imply cutting off the Dark One from his followers, unless he could migrate with them (which would then imply abandoning those that stay before). It also leaves the question of: what happens with Azure City? Do they simply accept Gobbotopia, and never seek to reclaim it? Or is Gobbotopia ejected from the ruins? The nation seemed to involve a lot more land than merely the city walls, though. What happens of all the farmers?

[hroþila]

There's a huge difference between "recognizing goblinoid sovereignty over the lands they've already settled, accepting them as neighbours and normalizing relations with them even if their population stays overwhelmingly goblinoid", and "having them pack up and leave the places where they currently live so that they can go inhabit a different world altogether, one where the humans and co. don't need to deal with them". And none of those solutions are "dissolve goblinoid communities and have them live as a minority elsewhere".

[Goblin_Priest]

There's a huge difference between "recognizing goblinoid sovereignty over the lands they've already settled, accepting them as neighbours and normalizing relations with them even if their population stays overwhelmingly goblinoid", and "having them pack up and leave the places where they currently live so that they can go inhabit a different world altogether, one where the humans and co. don't need to deal with them". And none of those solutions are "dissolve goblinoid communities and have them live as a minority elsewhere".

Which doesn't address their complaint that the lands they were given were all scrap to begin with. Essentially, it's just maintaining the status quo.

[hroþila]

Which doesn't address their complaint that the lands they were given were all scrap to begin with. Essentially, it's just maintaining the status quo.
Are you forgetting about Azure City and its surroundings?

Regardless, there's no reason why some land transfers couldn't be part of a solution that doesn't involve the goblinoids leaving their lands for a different world so that no one else needs to change their ways or learn to respect them. And again, no one said anything about dissolving goblinoid communities.

[Kish]

I think the existence of Gobbotopia gives Redcloak a potential kind of mental escape hatch, in that he could plausibly reason that the founding of a nation ultimately made the sacrifices of the Plan, and the alliance with Xykon, "worth it" after all, even if the Plan itself isn't actually seen to completion. (Remember that if it weren't for Xykon, he wouldn't ever have known that there were Gates other than Lirian's in the first place.) The whole ostensible purpose of the Gate plan was to give the goblins leverage over the gods, which they have now anyway since the gods need the use of the Dark One's unique quiddity + Redcloak's 9th-level spell slots.

Which is why my theory for a while has been that something awful is going to happen to Gobbotopia, since we can't have that. Setting him back to having accomplished nothing but death for his people is what makes the revelation that the Plan couldn't have worked as devastating as possible.
Well, there is a giant purple rift over it. To a world which, as proven by the Snarl attacking Laurin and Miron, really does contain a soul-eating monster. And Redcloak could say that he and his group are responsible for the presence of that rift or blame it on the Azurites, but there's no logical way to arrive at the conclusion "it's not somebody's fault."

[Goblin_Priest]

Are you forgetting about Azure City and its surroundings?

Regardless, there's no reason why some land transfers couldn't be part of a solution that doesn't involve the goblinoids leaving their lands for a different world so that no one else needs to change their ways or learn to respect them. And again, no one said anything about dissolving goblinoid communities.


Well, there is a giant purple rift over it. To a world which, as proven by the Snarl attacking Laurin and Miron, really does contain a soul-eating monster. And Redcloak could say that he and his group are responsible for the presence of that rift or blame it on the Azurites, but there's no logical way to arrive at the conclusion "it's not somebody's fault."

Or, more to the point, they already have it, along with recognition from neighbors. "Okay, keep what we can't take from you anyways" isn't much of an offer. To accept to keep Azure City (and gain nothing else) would be to accept the status quo, and both the Dark One and Redcloak have made it clear they aren't satisfied yet.

[hroþila]

I feel you're changing what the discussion is about. It's not about what would constitute a fair deal for the goblinoids (by the way, I don't think the goblinoids and Redcloak/the Dark One are synonyms), it's about why sending all the goblinoids to a different world as a way to solve the problem would be: bad.

[Fyraltari]

That world may very well already be inhabited.

[Peelee]

That world may very well already be inhabited.

Given Laurin's experiment, I would be surprised.

[Fyraltari]

Given Laurin's experiment, I would be surprised.
You never know, the Snarl could have made some people.

Or maybe whoever is there is very good at being someplace else than the Snarl.

[Peelee]

You never know, the Snarl could have made some people.

Or maybe whoever is there is very good at being someplace else than the Snarl.

Oh, I lm not discounting it entirely. I'll just be surprised.

[Rrmcklin]

I feel you're changing what the discussion is about. It's not about what would constitute a fair deal for the goblinoids (by the way, I don't think the goblinoids and Redcloak/the Dark One are synonyms), it's about why sending all the goblinoids to a different world as a way to solve the problem would be: bad.

Quoting this because I've noticed a lot of people don't make that distinction (that Redcloak personally not getting a happy ending isn't the same thing as the goblinoids situation not getting better) and it's actually very important.

[Goblin_Priest]

Quoting this because I've noticed a lot of people don't make that distinction (that Redcloak personally not getting a happy ending isn't the same thing as the goblinoids situation not getting better) and it's actually very important.

We've not seen a goblinoid settlement that didn't care about the Dark One. At most, the bugbear settlement doesn't care much about him, but as MitD/Oona agree upon, bugbears are kinda the ones out of the group. The girl that RC's brother introduced him to in the small outskirt town they made? Wanted to chat theology of the Dark One. That hobgoblin settlement that RC took over? The Supreme Leader was a cleric of the Dark One. What happened to him anyways, the Supreme Leader was a fantastic city builder/manager.

Sure, many nuances could be struck, but overall, the fate of the goblinoids, Redcloak, and the Dark One are all heavily entertwined. Redcloak/TDO are a critical plot resolution point now, as well, with the purple quiddity. So to think that the goblinoids will somehow get a happy ending without Redcloak and the Dark One being part of the equation at all seems utterly ridiculous to me.

If you are saying that people think that Redcloak must have a personally happy ending for the goblinoids to have it, though, I don't think anyone said that. After all, there's a common trope (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath) about it. There's a good chance things end poorly for Redcloak.

But the Dark One is here to stay. They need him to patch up future rifts, so they can't just rip him off this once and forget about it. He's also the god of goblinoids, and he'll only keep gaining power/souls as time goes on. And not only is he essential to the "save the world" quest, he's also actively in a "threaten the world" quest himself. His fate and the goblinoids' fate are heavily intertwined.

[Rrmcklin]

We've not seen a goblinoid settlement that didn't care about the Dark One. At most, the bugbear settlement doesn't care much about him, but as MitD/Oona agree upon, bugbears are kinda the ones out of the group. The girl that RC's brother introduced him to in the small outskirt town they made? Wanted to chat theology of the Dark One. That hobgoblin settlement that RC took over? The Supreme Leader was a cleric of the Dark One. What happened to him anyways, the Supreme Leader was a fantastic city builder/manager.

Sure, many nuances could be struck, but overall, the fate of the goblinoids, Redcloak, and the Dark One are all heavily entertwined. Redcloak/TDO are a critical plot resolution point now, as well, with the purple quiddity. So to think that the goblinoids will somehow get a happy ending without Redcloak and the Dark One being part of the equation at all seems utterly ridiculous to me.

If you are saying that people think that Redcloak must have a personally happy ending for the goblinoids to have it, though, I don't think anyone said that. After all, there's a common trope (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath) about it. There's a good chance things end poorly for Redcloak.

But the Dark One is here to stay. They need him to patch up future rifts, so they can't just rip him off this once and forget about it. He's also the god of goblinoids, and he'll only keep gaining power/souls as time goes on. And not only is he essential to the "save the world" quest, he's also actively in a "threaten the world" quest himself. His fate and the goblinoids' fate are heavily intertwined.

I didn't say the Dark One, I said Redcloak. I don't think we know enough about the Dark One to have a definitive read on him, but I feel pretty confident in thinking that Redcloak is going to die unhappy. That that's likely to be the case is not the same thing as going the goblinoids don't face injustice or the story not ending with them being addressed. I'm even more sure that's going to happen than I am about Redcloak not being happy.

[Goblin_Priest]

I feel you're changing what the discussion is about. It's not about what would constitute a fair deal for the goblinoids (by the way, I don't think the goblinoids and Redcloak/the Dark One are synonyms), it's about why sending all the goblinoids to a different world as a way to solve the problem would be: bad.


I didn't say the Dark One, I said Redcloak. I don't think we know enough about the Dark One to have a definitive read on him, but I feel pretty confident in thinking that Redcloak is going to die unhappy. That that's likely to be the case is not the same thing as going the goblinoids don't face injustice or the story not ending with them being addressed. I'm even more sure that's going to happen than I am about Redcloak not being happy.

Well, I meant to quote the guy you quoted more than to quote you, but either way, you were agreeing with him, and he mentioned both.

As to Redcloak's end... I don't know what I expect. There's the whole "redemption equals death" trope, that happens a lot, but there's also the fact that Redcloak is pivotal to saving the world. He can't just unceremoniously die next strip, he has an important role to play to save the world, that much we know.

So assuming Redcloak saves the day... then that means he'll have been convinced to save the day. And whatever it takes, it'd take a lot to convince him to do that. So if he's convinced to do it, and does it, and then dies by whatever means... would he still be all that unhappy at that moment?

Redcloak is destined to become the hero of this story. :biggrin:

[Angrith]

But Redcloak may not be necessary to saving the world. (I'm not necessarily disagreeing, merely cautioning.) Thor's plan does not account for the planet in the rift or the Dark One intervening. Both of these scenarios are possible (if not likely):

1) Redcloak snaps upon learning The Plan is useless and destroys the last Gate. Loki makes an emergency overture to the Dark One who helps seal the Rift permanently.

2) The planet in the rift contains green quiddity that the Gods use to seal the Snarl.

Of course, the scenarios have some pretty glaring flaws. In the case of (1), it is narratively unsatisfying for the gods to fix everything at the last moment. (2) requires the gods to approach the god-killing abomination when instead they can just continue the world-building cycle.

Instead, what I see most likely is one of two things:

1) Redcloak undergoes continued character growth where he sees that goblin persons are just as valuable as the goblin people. He helps destroy Xykon without overshadowing Roy. This character growth is facilitated by Durkon and mirrors growth in the goblins' place in the world. He puts his analytical mind to use figuring out the world in the rift in conjunction with V and helps seal the Rifts. Everyone is happy.

2) Redcloak becomes totally unhinged when he learns The Plan is unlikely to work and could kill his god. Xykon tries to murder Redcloak when he learns The Plan was never to his advantage. Xykon is thrown into the other world a'la being thrown into the Gate in book 1, and Redcloak dies in the struggle. The Order follows Xykon to finish the job while the Dark One gets a big plot dump from the deceased Redcloak. Order defeats Xykon, Dark One steps in to help seal the rifts as per Thor's plan and Belkar is stuck outside the world when the rift is sealed, ending him.

What separates option 2 from problem 1 above, is that instead of the Dark One getting plot dump from another god, he receives it from Redcloak who is killed by the Order. This keeps the order involved and allows for Redcloak to have closing character moments where the Dark One explains why he failed.

[Squire Doodad]

Plotwise, RC feels more likely to work with the OotS because he is on the material plane instead of off in the outer planes. Simply put, because he is a frequently seen character that can interact with the party instead of doing so via proxy.
On the other hand, it really feels like there will be one more book after that. We're on Book 6, right? We still have the Directors to deal with, and it might be unsatisfying to have a small multitude of events occurring with RC and Xykon in the first 40 pages of the OotS arriving and then switching to the Director arc. It seems as though the next book will wrap up the Team Evil story arc once and for all, with the final final final boss being the subject of Book 8. I'm not sure what it would consist of, but it would allow for all of the needed drama and the like to take place without mashing the two together. Rich could pull it off, but that doesn't mean it needs to be done.

[Peelee]

It seems as though the next book will wrap up the Team Evil story arc once and for all, with the final final final boss being the subject of Book 8.



[How many main storyline books will there be?]


Yeah, it'll be seven, even if the last one looks like a phone book.

Any other guesses?:smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

Also, the final final boss will be Xykon, I’m pretty sure The Giant said so as well.

[Peelee]

Also, the final final boss will be Xykon, I’m pretty sure The Giant said so as well.

Even if he hadn't, I'd be somewhat unhappy if the villain we've been following for the entire story turned out to not be the final boss.

[Squire Doodad]

Any other guesses?:smalltongue:

Oh haha didn't know that this should be a fun Book 7 :smallbiggrin:

[CriticalFailure]

I don’t think we can simplify the options down into a few options, there’s always lots of things that are possible. For example, RC could snap and destroy the final gate, but the world in the rift could mean the world doesn’t instantly become undone. With the green quiddity thing I think it’s most likely to occur only if the characters are the ones who retrieve green from the rift world. RC being involved with that would make a lot of sense since he almost certainly has the best knowledge (religion) of the characters we’ve seen.

I think some sort of Xykon Redcloak confrontation is inevitable though. And RC snapping or having some sort of temporary breakdown is pretty likely because of how all his denial

[Squire Doodad]

I don’t think we can simplify the options down into a few options, there’s always lots of things that are possible. For example, RC could snap and destroy the final gate, but the world in the rift could mean the world doesn’t instantly become undone. With the green quiddity thing I think it’s most likely to occur only if the characters are the ones who retrieve green from the rift world. RC being involved with that would make a lot of sense since he almost certainly has the best knowledge (religion) of the characters we’ve seen.

I think some sort of Xykon Redcloak confrontation is inevitable though. And RC snapping or having some sort of temporary breakdown is pretty likely because of how all his denial
How much do you want to bet that RC confronting the Order outside of the Monster Hollow part leads to him accidentally finding the gate. It could be some sort of a teleport spell gone awry or rashly using Earthquake or stone shape or something, but it would be interesting. Not the best option, but appropriate.

[Peelee]

How much do you want to bet that RC confronting the Order outside of the Monster Hollow part leads to him accidentally finding the gate. It could be some sort of a teleport spell gone awry or rashly using Earthquake or stone shape or something, but it would be interesting. Not the best option, but appropriate.

Five gold!

[woweedd]

You never know, the Snarl could have made some people.

Or maybe whoever is there is very good at being someplace else than the Snarl.
Or The Snarl made some people, but lashes out because, even as smart as it's gotten, it's still a paranoid little creature, and regards anyone getting too close to its children as a threat to be purged? Justa thought. Like a guard dog that is perfectly nice towards its owners, but can and will bite your arm off if you seem like a threat, and is not very good at identifying threats.

[NoHaxJustPi]

It knows what’s a threat
It just doesn’t know what’s’nt a threat

[Goblin_Priest]

Even if he hadn't, I'd be somewhat unhappy if the villain we've been following for the entire story turned out to not be the final boss.

Agreed.

I'm not sure where the astral fortress fits into all of this, though. A quest to the astral fortress dot not seem very interesting to me, as it is. That said, the purpose of it could simply be to display Xykon's belief that he can safely rejuvenate, and thus able to risk destruction, thus allowing the party/RC to dispose of him once and for all, thanks to the combination of a poor gamble + RC's betrayal.

As for the gate, corrupting it takes weeks, so it's possible they find it before the party finds them.

[Squire Doodad]

Agreed.

I'm not sure where the astral fortress fits into all of this, though. A quest to the astral fortress dot not seem very interesting to me, as it is. That said, the purpose of it could simply be to display Xykon's belief that he can safely rejuvenate, and thus able to risk destruction, thus allowing the party/RC to dispose of him once and for all, thanks to the combination of a poor gamble + RC's betrayal.

As for the gate, corrupting it takes weeks, so it's possible they find it before the party finds them.
Astral Fortress seems like a plot device that exists solely so that RC can completely nullify it.

It feels like they won't find the gate until just before or after the Order arrives.

[factotum]

Astral Fortress seems like a plot device that exists solely so that RC can completely nullify it.

Why RC? He knows where the fortress is--he travelled there with Xykon when they left Azure City, before they went to Girard's pyramid. Don't see why he'd have any interest in "nullifying" it, especially since he knows that the phylactery Xykon stored there is not the real one.

[B. Dandelion]

Why RC? He knows where the fortress is--he travelled there with Xykon when they left Azure City, before they went to Girard's pyramid. Don't see why he'd have any interest in "nullifying" it, especially since he knows that the phylactery Xykon stored there is not the real one.

I read it as saying that RC having swapped out the phylactery is exactly what nullifies the fortress.

The Order don't know about the swap yet so the fortress can still be presented as threat to them in the future, but it'll become completely irrelevant the moment they catch on to Redcloak's trick.

[Fyraltari]

Aslo the Astral Fortress explains why Xykon couldn't keep an eye on what was going on under his nose.

[Squire Doodad]

I read it as saying that RC having swapped out the phylactery is exactly what nullifies the fortress.
Preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeety much. It's impressive, but I doubt it actually has much value to the plot.
One and a half levels of scribed spells for nothing.

[CriticalFailure]

It's possible that there could be some shenanigans that lead the order to the fortress. If Xykon gets destroyed Redcloak could tell the order that Xykon made an astral fortress for his phylactery, omit the fact that he has the real one, and then try to destroy Xykon and everything else by executing plan B while the order is occupied. I doubt that something like that would happen and if it did some seriously weird stuff like using the planet in the rift as a backup world would have to end up occurring.

Yeah it's unlikely the fortress will come up but anything's possible.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think RC would be convince once e realizes that the snarl would destroy all goblinkind AND possibly even the dark one himself.

[factotum]

I think RC would be convince once e realizes that the snarl would destroy all goblinkind AND possibly even the dark one himself.

He already knows the Snarl could potentially destroy all goblinkind--he mentions it as a possibility in Start of Darkness. Thing is, as far as he's concerned that's still a win, because the Dark One will be directly involved in creating the new world and will thus thrash out a better deal for goblinoids.

[Goblin_Priest]

Yea, they key info he's oblivious to is the fact that TDO wouldn't survive to carve out a better deal for them in the next world.