Bladesinger vs. Stone Sorcerer/Hexblade vs. Another Awesome Gish?

[Optimus21]

Hi all,

I've read a lot of posts on gish.....A LOT.....looking for the right build for a new campaign I am playing in. I think I have narrowed down what I think will be best for my parameters; but I would love to crowd source this thing (I am open to better ideas, please help). So, without further preamble...

Mission Parameters:

Looking for a 'gish' character that will be on the front lines doing good damage while maintaining most of its spellcasting functionality/progression
Campaign is starting at 4th level and the build must viable at that level; the campaign looks to be a good bet to go through about 12th level (so don't need any 20th level builds)
Rolled stats are: 18,16,14,12,12,10 (Odd there are no odds...)
Can use all UA material; DM is ok with a non-elf Bladesinger since it is his own world


My first pass gave me two options:

Option A:
Human (Variant) Stone Sorcerer 11/Hexblade 1
Stats: 10,14,20,12,12,20
Average HPs: 112
Saves: Con,Cha
Non-Magical AC (with Stone's Durability):22
Spell Slots: 4/3/3/3/2/1
Highest Spell: 6th Level
Feats/Ability Score Adjustments Still Available (Used two Ability Score Adjustments): 1 (Thoughts on what this Feat should be? War Caster?)
Notable Features: CHA for Att/Dmg, 11 Sorc Points, Metamagic (Quicken/Twinned), Hexblade's Curse, Stone's Aegis and Durability

Option B:
Human (Variant) Bladesinger 12
Stats: 10,20,14,20,12,12
Average HP: 74
Saves: Int,Wis
Non-Magical AC (With Bladesong): 22
Spell Slots: 4/3/3/3/2/1
Highest Spell: 6th Level
Feats/Ability Score Adjustments Still Available (Used two Ability Score Adjustments): 2 (Guessing War Caster and ?)
Notable Features: Blade Song, Arcane Recovery, Extra Attack, Song of Defense

Option C?
Any better ideas out there?

I am curious what people think is a better build. Also, any thoughts, feedback, and ideas for another build are VERY much appreciated. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this wall of sub-optimized text! :)

[spartan_ah]

Level 12 bladesinger here...
I must say that at this level front line is less and less attractive. I'm far more useful and powerful as a wizard.
swinging my blade at this level is only after I did my major things this fight. it's fun, none the less, but so you know that magic is mightier than the sword for a bladesinger at these levels.
up to 10th level it was awesome though

[TheUser]

Bladesinger is most certainly a cool class but it's features give it -acceptable- AC early, decent mid-game and amazing end game (unless you spam shield all day). But the saves of the class are normal and it's HP is lack luster.
It benefits from having a full caster development in it's spell progression and doesn't take a multi-class hit. Furthermore, this is amplified by the fact it's a wizard full caster so it gets a lot of amazing spells as levels go up.

I have zero experience with Stone Sorcerer but hear good things. Hexblade will mean you tank your spell progression a bit however.

Other Gish?

Paladin / Sorcerer is always rock solid but takes time to take-off.

Valor Bards are pretty much the consomate Gish without any multi-classing, but with a single level in fighter for fighting style are immensely cool (especially after Magical Secrets kicks in -> options galore).

[CTurbo]

If you want to play a Bladesinger that's more melee and less spellcaster, you really need some Rogue levels. Probably at least 5 levels. Arcane Trickster is flavorful.

[SVamp]

Strongly consider a paladin sorcerer. Quicken + scag cantrips + shadow blade / holy weapon will do some pretty great sustained damage, with crazy nova, while having a lot of casting power. 2 paladin/8 sorcerer to be more spell caster, 5/6 to be more paladin. (I’d go devotion if so)

2/8 Highlights: dex based gives you great initiative, AC, dex saves, and still great damage due to shadow blade and twin / quicken booming blade. I’d get war caster right away to also get scag cantrip reactions through sentinel. You are still a pretty good caster, very tanky, with the best of arcane and divine buffs (if going divine sorcerer ) or some nifty tricks if you’re going with shadow sorcerer, or extra hps and damage when using green flame blade & fireball if going draconic (also a reasonable range attack with firebolt), or stone sorcerer goodies.

[ChiefBigFeather]

Well, that depends. The Bladesinger will be better at "gishing" at level 3. His full casting progression lets him stay on track with spells but his melee damage will fall of quickly. By level 9 you will probably be better in the back doing control.
The Sorcblade is the other way round. The Sorcblade's strength really kicks in when you have high charisma and some extra dice on Green Flame Blade. It's not "weak" by any mans until then, but I would recommend staying pure sorcerer until dipping Hexblade is really worth it. This means staying back early, going into melee later.

A Sorcadin would be capable of going into melee right away and stay there, but his spellcasting will lack behind and he is MAD. You rolled pretty good stats though, so MAD shouldn't be that much of an issue.

[Optimus21]

Well, that depends. The Bladesinger will be better at "gishing" at level 3. His full casting progression lets him stay on track with spells but his melee damage will fall of quickly. By level 9 you will probably be better in the back doing control.
The Sorcblade is the other way round. The Sorcblade's strength really kicks in when you have high charisma and some extra dice on Green Flame Blade. It's not "weak" by any mans until then, but I would recommend staying pure sorcerer until dipping Hexblade is really worth it. This means staying back early, going into melee later.

A Sorcadin would be capable of going into melee right away and stay there, but his spellcasting will lack behind and he is MAD. You rolled pretty good stats though, so MAD shouldn't be that much of an issue.

Thank you all for your replies already!

I have seen a couple of suggestions to dip into Paladin with Sorcerer. Just so I am understanding correctly, is it mainly to be able to get Smites? Otherwise I don't see much of an upside vs. a straight Stone Sorcerer; but I could be missing something.

[rlc]

Sorcerers and Paladins require Charisma and are mo more MAD than your average Paladin

[Man_Over_Game]

Thank you all for your replies already!

I have seen a couple of suggestions to dip into Paladin with Sorcerer. Just so I am understanding correctly, is it mainly to be able to get Smites? Otherwise I don't see much of an upside vs. a straight Stone Sorcerer; but I could be missing something.

It's also to have high AC, although the Stone Sorcerer has too many redundant abilities that don't work with the Paladin, so you're better off going Divine Soul or Shadow most of the time to get features you'd otherwise wouldn't have.


Sorcerer/Paladin: Tankiness combined with powerful burst damage with Quickened Spell/Smite/Booming Blade
Hexblade: High damage boss slayer. Very little deals more damage than a Hexblade.
Stone Sorcerer: Hybrid of a mobile melee support who teleports and protects allies.
Bladesinger: Amazing at maintaining Concentration spells for lasting effects.
Eldritch Knight/Abjurer: Melee tank that has amazing burst defense.
Ranger/Land Druid: Mobile attacker who can mix up ranged and melee attacks with enhanced effects, can even heal
Cleric: Can protect the team using both magic and their physical presence.




So it really depends on what you're trying to do. If you're trying to kill stuff, Sorcerer/Paladin, Ranger/Druid, or Hexblade is your choice. If you plan on mitigating damage for your party, Paladin, Cleric or Eldritch Knight is the way to go. If you want to support your team, Stone Sorcerer, Cleric or Ranger/Druid is what you want. Battlefield control belongs to the Bladesinger, and few heal better than a Cleric.

[Anderlith]

Envoy Warforged (integrated coffee brewer)

Paladin 6
Hexblade 4
Valor Bard 3
Divine Soul Sorcerer 7

All you’ll need is Cha & Con. You have a wide amount of spells & options. & you can double nova smite. Add coffeelock shenanigans. Infinite smites

[EndEver]

Have you considered a Cleric 1-2, Sorc X?

It maintains spell slot progression so you can upcast or use your higher slots for sorcery points. Specifically look up Tempest Cleric, Storm Sorcerer since they have the ability to move in and out of the front lines when needed. Plus major lightning damage or thunder.

Or just take a Forge Cleric dip at level for Heavy Armour, you still get Con saves with Sorc first, more cantrips and more 1st level spells for utility. Also if you take Divine Soul, you can do Spirit Guardians for some nice frontline AOE with your level 3 spells, plus mitigate their moment speed a bit. You can also add Spiritual weapon to the mix or maybe a Twinned Booming Blade/ Quicken GFB. Also if you happen to be a Variant Human and take Warcaster, you’ll get advantage and proficiency with con saves, plus the ability to use spells on AOO so imagine someone tries to run and you just Booming Blade him.

There should be some other fun Cleric domain dips that grant heavy armour so you pick one that suits you the best.

It’s going to be a caster heavy Gish vs Melee heavy but from my reasearching, they all seem to lean one way or the other at least a bit.

I haven’t personally played this build, (1 more week) but quite a few people have recommended it to me and could do its explanation more justice than I.

[Rukelnikov]

Note that Stone's Durability makes your AC 13+Con, not 13+Con+Dex. So in your initial mock build you would have AC 20 Instead of 22.

For a martial inclined gish I'd recommend not being a Bladesinger. I haven't really "played" one in 5e, but we ported our epics from 3e to 5e for a one shot and I ended up being basically a pretty tanky wizard.

I'd go for anything with sorcerer in it since it's the only way to attack and cast whatever you want in the same round (thanks to quickened metamagic)

[Optimus21]

Note that Stone's Durability makes your AC 13+Con, not 13+Con+Dex. So in your initial mock build you would have AC 20 Instead of 22.

For a martial inclined gish I'd recommend not being a Bladesinger. I haven't really "played" one in 5e, but we ported our epics from 3e to 5e for a one shot and I ended up being basically a pretty tanky wizard.

I'd go for anything with sorcerer in it since it's the only way to attack and cast whatever you want in the same round (thanks to quickened metamagic)

I totally missed that interaction with AC, thank you (that is not real intuitive)! That does diminish Stone Sorcerer a bit, although it does remain a strong subclass from what I see vs. other Sorcerer subclasses.

[Optimus21]

Again, thank you for all of the suggestions.

I am exploring a Sorcadin as suggested (Paladin2/Sorcerer X). My DM is ok with anything UA, old or new. So, I am thinking the old (original) Favored Soul might be good a good plan. It gets its choice of a cleric domain for an added spell list. Any suggestions on what domain spell list would be the strongest? Or is there a better sub class of sorcerer I am overlooking? Thanks!

[djreynolds]

I would check out divine soul

[Optimus21]

I would check out divine soul

Definitely good...but is that the best option for a melee character such as this? I might be missing something.

[CTurbo]

I still like Bladesinger/Arcane Trickster using Shadow Blade and probably Booming Blade and/or Green Flame Blade. Either Rogue 3/Wizard 9 or Rogue 5/Wizard 7 would be great.

Cunning Action is GREAT for Bladesingers and the sneak damage is just icing on the cake. Uncanny Dodge is also GREAT, but comes at a higher cost obviously. Uncanny Dodge pretty much replaces the Shield spell basically saving you the spell slots.

[SVamp]

Again, thank you for all of the suggestions.

I am exploring a Sorcadin as suggested (Paladin2/Sorcerer X). My DM is ok with anything UA, old or new. So, I am thinking the old (original) Favored Soul might be good a good plan. It gets its choice of a cleric domain for an added spell list. Any suggestions on what domain spell list would be the strongest? Or is there a better sub class of sorcerer I am overlooking? Thanks!

Ok if you’re allowed the original favoured soul which was awesome, then that’s it, stop right there lol. Your only question will be if you should be a straight class, sacrifice 2 levels for divine smite & shield with paladin, or sacrifice 1 level for shield, armour of agathys, and the ability to use cha to attack.

Personally I’d go straight human favour soul, war caster at lvl 1, dex based, multi into paladin after lvl 5 for 2 levels, and carry on from there.

Between shadow blade, quickened gfb/bb + regular attack w extra attack, you will do a lot of melee damage while still being mostly a full caster.

I’d kill to play the original favoured soul heh

[Chunkosaurus]

Hexblade 1 Stone sorcerer X is a very potent combination. To people saying you should go sorcadin I think you are better off with this build. Using twin and quickened spell you will keep up damage output with anyone, and shield and absorb elements make you very tanky. The nice thing is once you are Hexblade1/Sorcerer 3 you will be set in combat for the rest of the game with your metamagics and SCAG cantrips, so if you wanted to focus on more utility and social spells while still being a full caster.

[Ganryu]

I've run Stone Sorcerer/Bladelock. It was ungodly with its AC. Like, at lvl 4 I somehow walked infront of a Master Vampire, and with +15 attack, it could not hit me. At all. (18 AC + BLUR + Mirror Image + shield). {And that kids is the story of how I was turned into a vampire and became a boss for the party. Apparently don't chase thralls by yourself...}

You only need two stats to run it, Con and Charisma, mostly Con. You do need a way to attract aggro, which is a bit of a failing, but yeah, I honestly can't think of a stronger AC tank than that, despite being a 'magic' class. The damage isn't there too much, but the sheer defensive abilities makes me rank this an A+.

There's also the failing of saving throws, either your dex or wisdom's going to suck, or both, but, meh. Its a tradeoff for pissing off any normal encounter with your GM. Your HP is high, so you'll survive most dex saves that fail, but Wisdom, uh.... yeah, good luck party.

[Optimus21]

I've run Stone Sorcerer/Bladelock. It was ungodly with its AC. Like, at lvl 4 I somehow walked infront of a Master Vampire, and with +15 attack, it could not hit me. At all. (18 AC + BLUR + Mirror Image + shield). {And that kids is the story of how I was turned into a vampire and became a boss for the party. Apparently don't chase thralls by yourself...}

You only need two stats to run it, Con and Charisma, mostly Con. You do need a way to attract aggro, which is a bit of a failing, but yeah, I honestly can't think of a stronger AC tank than that, despite being a 'magic' class. The damage isn't there too much, but the sheer defensive abilities makes me rank this an A+.

There's also the failing of saving throws, either your dex or wisdom's going to suck, or both, but, meh. Its a tradeoff for pissing off any normal encounter with your GM. Your HP is high, so you'll survive most dex saves that fail, but Wisdom, uh.... yeah, good luck party.

Thank you all again for the comments. I am leaning towards Hexblade 1/Favored Soul X so I can get the extra attack and not be so MAD by using my CHA to attack (as well as keeping most of my spell progression). The only thing I will really miss is the added Smite damage. This route also frees up more ASIs so I can grab Feats. I am thinking I will need to get Warcaster right away; or is there a better option?

[Ganryu]

Thank you all again for the comments. I am leaning towards Hexblade 1/Favored Soul X so I can get the extra attack and not be so MAD by using my CHA to attack (as well as keeping most of my spell progression). The only thing I will really miss is the added Smite damage. This route also frees up more ASIs so I can grab Feats. I am thinking I will need to get Warcaster right away; or is there a better option?

Trust me when I say the Stone Sorcerer was better than Hexblade in the build, the AC is based on CON is the entire point of the build. You force it so you don't have a MAD issue, you have two things that matter.

CHA is your spell casting, attack, and ability checks
CON is your HP, and AC, and con checks.

You don't need war caster, but the more you build your CON, the further your budget stretches. If you are going variant human, might as well grab war caster, but those are the only two stats that matter.

If you do go for Favored Soul, you'll have to keep CON, CHA, and DEX/STR high.

[Optimus21]

Trust me when I say the Stone Sorcerer was better than Hexblade in the build, the AC is based on CON is the entire point of the build. You force it so you don't have a MAD issue, you have two things that matter.

CHA is your spell casting, attack, and ability checks
CON is your HP, and AC, and con checks.

You don't need war caster, but the more you build your CON, the further your budget stretches. If you are going variant human, might as well grab war caster, but those are the only two stats that matter.

If you do go for Favored Soul, you'll have to keep CON, CHA, and DEX/STR high.

My apologies if I am misunderstanding, but I can't go Stone Sorcerer instead of Hexblade as I am already going Favored Soul Sorcerer; I would need to pick one. The reason I like Favored Soul better is it has the extra attack and Stone Sorcerer doesn't which seems to be a decent damage difference. As far as Hexblade goes, it seemed like the easiest way to get CHA as my attack stat and then I can put my next highest score in CON to have decent HPs yet.

[Ganryu]

My apologies if I am misunderstanding, but I can't go Stone Sorcerer instead of Hexblade as I am already going Favored Soul Sorcerer; I would need to pick one. The reason I like Favored Soul better is it has the extra attack and Stone Sorcerer doesn't which seems to be a decent damage difference. As far as Hexblade goes, it seemed like the easiest way to get CHA as my attack stat and then I can put my next highest score in CON to have decent HPs yet.


Aye, free to do what you want, but if you picked Favored Soul, you lose out on the gishness. Honestly, you'll already be behind on spellslots with teh above build, if you cut out Stone Sorcerer, there really is not reason to go gish. Your AC will be low, and your HP as well, meaning things will hit like a truck. Granted, from range, you can hit like a truck.

You can still go for it, but you will not belong anywhere on the front line.

You're now best off trading @ later levels just 2 levels in Warlock for the eldritch blast cheese that sorcerers can do with (meta magic Quicken with 2 sets of Eldritch blast a turn with agonizing blast and repelling blast), or pure sorcerer so you are never behind on spell slots, which is a problem multiclassing does.

Just giving a heads up on the build. Good luck :D.

[CTurbo]

Stone Sorc has it's own somewhat reliable second attack in the form or a reaction attack.