Swapping a spell list: Unbalancing?

[jaappleton]

I'm curious as to how disruptive it'd be, balance wise, to allow someone to entirely swap their spell list.

For example: Wizard with a Cleric spell list. Druid with the Sorcerer list.

(Half Casters are a little too special for me to try to attempt it right now)

IMO, the d6 classes tend to have more... Destructive power. Would it be more acceptable for a d6 class (Wizard, Sorc) to swap spell lists with a d8 (Bard, Druid, Cleric, Warlock) class as opposed to the other way around?

[hymer]

Are we just talking list, or are we also talking method of knowing spells on the list? Because cleric or druid getting full access to the whole wizard list would definitely be stronger than what they have now, e.g.

[clash]

Caster classes are balanced with a combination of spell lists and class abilities. Generally the classes where they get more class abilities have a weaker spell list.

I would say:
Wizard > Sorcerer > Warlock/Bard/Cleric > Druid in general.

Allowing someone to swap down for a weaker spell list should be fine barring no unexpected synergies. Something might come up where it is simply a broken ability/spell combination.

I would also never allow the warlock to switch spell lists. They were built with a very specific spell list to prevent short rest spell abuse and this should not be tampered with.

[jaappleton]

Are we just talking list, or are we also talking method of knowing spells on the list? Because cleric or druid getting full access to the whole wizard list would definitely be stronger than what they have now, e.g.

Strictly swapping lists, and you keep your original spellcasting stat.

So a Wizard abandoning the entire Wizard list and taking the Cleric is still an Arcane caster, still uses Int, keeps using their spellbook.

[jaappleton]

They were built with a very specific spell list to prevent short rest spell abuse and this should not be tampered with.

I get this line of thinking.

However, I would say that WOTC themselves once believed it, but somewhat abandoned that idea once they released Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica which enabled Warlocks to tack on entirely new spells via the Guild Backgrounds. Such as allowing Warlocks to learn Animate Dead and similar spells.

That said, I also do think the Warlock's spell list needs to be considered especially carefully. Handle it with white gloves, so to speak.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm curious as to how disruptive it'd be, balance wise, to allow someone to entirely swap their spell list.

For example: Wizard with a Cleric spell list. Druid with the Sorcerer list.

(Half Casters are a little too special for me to try to attempt it right now)

IMO, the d6 classes tend to have more... Destructive power. Would it be more acceptable for a d6 class (Wizard, Sorc) to swap spell lists with a d8 (Bard, Druid, Cleric, Warlock) class as opposed to the other way around?

It's pretty variable, depending on the class mechanics.

For example, it doesn't really matter what spells a Bard has, since it has very few mechanics that actually interacts with magic. Rather, a Bard's abilities are good with magic because they can use them at the same time as magic, but they don't actually synergize or interact with their spellcasting in any way. A Glamour Bard might be a better support/champion buffer if they had a Wizard's spell list, but that's a very niche situation.

On the flipside, Clerics have amazing armor and proficiencies, and just lack the spells needed to maintain melee combat. If they had the versatility and the melee benefits of a Sorcerer or Wizard, they'd be a major problem.

Similarly, Sorcerers cast the best Concentration spells, but have the lowest AC and HP of any caster, and have a ton of spells that require the Sorcerer to stand in harm's way. Replace that with something that can afford to be in the back (like, say the Cleric/Divine Soul) and they'd be a good buff bot.

I've done a lot of research into what changes when swapping features to work on my Prestige Options homebrew, and it basically boils down to this:

Sorcerers and Wizards have lots of spells that deal damage. As a result, they can be a full time caster, and this is compensated by their low Hit Dice and armor.

Everyone else has a lot more limited selection for combat/damage oriented spells, so they can't realistically be a full time caster, and are given armor/proficiencies to compensate for that fact. A Bard can afford to support with skills, or the Cleric can afford to whack something really hard, but a Sorcerer and a Wizard should always have spells to use.

Take away those high damage spell lists from the Sorcerer and the Wizard and that'd be like taking away Expertise and Armor from a Bard.

[jaappleton]

I'm going to say full-out what I'm looking to do, and I want opinions on if it'd be a problem:

Wizard
Bladesinger
Cleric Spell List

So I stick with Wizard weapon and armor proficiency, can't use shields, etc. Still use Int.

But with the Cleric list.

At first thought I think its actually a downgrade from the Wizard list. I wouldn't have Shield or Absorb Elements.

But I could attack twice, heal, be a full caster, have Bladesong...

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm going to say full-out what I'm looking to do, and I want opinions on if it'd be a problem:

Wizard
Bladesinger
Cleric Spell List

So I stick with Wizard weapon and armor proficiency, can't use shields, etc. Still use Int.

But with the Cleric list.

At first thought I think its actually a downgrade from the Wizard list. I wouldn't have Shield or Absorb Elements.

But I could attack twice, heal, be a full caster, have Bladesong...

I don't see a problem with it. Clerics have some solid Concentration spells, but they're generally best used to enhance martial characters. Normal Bladesingers have effective Concentration spells, too, but would focus on controlling the battlefield with something like Flame Sphere.

So rather than covering the battlefield in fire or water, you'd cast buffs on yourself. Seems fine with me. It doesn't really matter how many buffs you put on yourself, though, when you have a 1d6 Hit Die. The Wizard version at least had Shield and Absorb Elements, which are a lot more reliable than a proactive Healing Word.

I'd say it's a nerf, so it's cool with me.

[nickl_2000]

One of the problems that I see are the Wizard Spell Mastery ability at high level if the wizard has any healing spells. They can literally heal all party members to 100% after every fight without expending a single resource.

[jaappleton]

One of the problems that I see are the Wizard Spell Mastery ability at high level if the wizard has any healing spells. They can literally heal all party members to 100% after every fight without expending a single resource.

Should've mentioned it earlier:

Campaign is only going til maybe 11th level, likely only 9th.

[Man_Over_Game]

One of the problems that I see are the Wizard Spell Mastery ability at high level if the wizard has any healing spells. They can literally heal all party members to 100% after every fight without expending a single resource.

Isn't Healing Spirit a level 2 spell, though?

This is also at a level where the average character heals 7 HP each with their 18 Hit Dice, and can afford healing potions up the wazoo.

[hymer]

I'm going to say full-out what I'm looking to do, and I want opinions on if it'd be a problem:

Wizard
Bladesinger
Cleric Spell List

So I stick with Wizard weapon and armor proficiency, can't use shields, etc. Still use Int.

But with the Cleric list.

At first thought I think its actually a downgrade from the Wizard list. I wouldn't have Shield or Absorb Elements.

But I could attack twice, heal, be a full caster, have Bladesong...
It's playable. But losing those you mention is not nice, and neither is losing blur, haste, shadow blade, SCAG cantrips, counterspell, etc.

[nickl_2000]

Isn't Healing Spirit a level 2 spell, though?

Yes, but you can cast Healing Spirit at will. Even if you don't use healing spirit for healing you can still cast Cure Wounds at will.

Spell Mastery
At 18th level, you have achieved such mastery over
certain spells that you can cast them at will. Choose a
1st-level wizard spell and a 2nd-level wizard spell that
are in your spellbook. You can cast those spells at their
low est level without expending a spell slot w hen you
have them prepared



However, it isn't an issue if the campaign is ending at a max of 11

[Man_Over_Game]

Yes, but you can cast Healing Spirit at will. Even if you don't use healing spirit for healing you can still cast Cure Wounds at will.

Spell Mastery
At 18th level, you have achieved such mastery over
certain spells that you can cast them at will. Choose a
1st-level wizard spell and a 2nd-level wizard spell that
are in your spellbook. You can cast those spells at their
low est level without expending a spell slot w hen you
have them prepared



However, it isn't an issue if the campaign is ending at a max of 11

I mean, can't people already do that with Healing Spirit? Summon it at the end of a fight, have everyone take their time shuffling past it, heal everyone to full, available at caster level 3.

[nickl_2000]

I mean, can't people already do that with Healing Spirit? Summon it at the end of a fight, have everyone take their time shuffling past it, heal everyone to full, available at caster level 3.

Not from a Wizard... Also, doing that requires that the character release concentration on whatever else they are focused on. So, if a Druid has summons out there they need to release the summons and then cast healing spirit instead. Cure wounds wouldn't require that.


Plus I forget that others tables allow a conga line of healing. Mine only allows for 1 heal per round on Healing Spirit out of combat.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm curious as to how disruptive it'd be, balance wise, to allow someone to entirely swap their spell list.

On a straight theoretical level, it would play some minor havoc with the balance. At least since 3e (when clerics got spell levels up through 9) but frankly even before then, there was a fairly clear mentality that clerics got extra... stuff (higher hd, easy use of armor, better weapons, turn undead, some kind of deity/domain-specific powers and so forth) compared to the 'mage' (whichever specific arcane casting class that is) specifically because their spells were not, overall, as useful (or occasionally as good, see level 3 fireball vs. level 5 flame strike in most editions). Exactly how much that would play out in 5e would probably be a case-by-case situation.



I'm going to say full-out what I'm looking to do, and I want opinions on if it'd be a problem:

Wizard
Bladesinger
Cleric Spell List

That is a tough one. Clerics have a number of combat boosts which could combine with two attacks in unforeseen ways, but I'm not thinking of any off the top of my head (honestly, the most 'unintended conflation' risk I can think of with Bladesinger is not playing in AL and being able to combine it with Shadow Blade from XGtE). Quick question, would this character then be able to dip Sorcerer or Warlock for a level and pick up the really nice 1st level arcane combat spells like Shield?



Should've mentioned it earlier:
Campaign is only going til maybe 11th level, likely only 9th.

Well then, probably not a big problem. Most of my worst fears would be high level spells having altered effects. Although your specific example is a gish character, and it really is the mid-levels where they run the risk of being 'simply-better' options.

[jaappleton]

Quick question, would this character then be able to dip Sorcerer or Warlock for a level and pick up the really nice 1st level arcane combat spells like Shield?



My DM allows those who take Magic Initiate to add the spell to their list and cast it with slots.

So, yes, and doubly so.

[MrStabby]

For the first open question... swapping spell lists can be problematic. Sorcerer can just take the wizard list to get better spells whilst losing nothing.

Cross out Warlock and wizard and things look different.

Druid, cleric, bard and sorcerer I think are more interchangeable without balance issues. However... this was based on PHB experience only.

When you start to add in things like the bladesinger, I worry. Spirit guardians and two attacks otherwise takes crown paladin (generally seen as not a strong paladin otherwise) to nine or something like a valor bard to 10. In this case you get to do it sooner, with more spell slots and probably a higher level. Add to this bladesong to make you harder to hit and you could be imbalanced in some fights.

[jaappleton]

For the first open question... swapping spell lists can be problematic. Sorcerer can just take the wizard list to get better spells whilst losing nothing.

Cross out Warlock and wizard and things look different.

Druid, cleric, bard and sorcerer I think are more interchangeable without balance issues. However... this was based on PHB experience only.

When you start to add in things like the bladesinger, I worry. Spirit guardians and two attacks otherwise takes crown paladin (generally seen as not a strong paladin otherwise) to nine or something like a valor bard to 10. In this case you get to do it sooner, with more spell slots and probably a higher level. Add to this bladesong to make you harder to hit and you could be imbalanced in some fights.

>_>
<_<
>_>
<_<
:smallbiggrin:

[Willie the Duck]

My DM allows those who take Magic Initiate to add the spell to their list and cast it with slots.

So, yes, and doubly so.

So combo-ing off what MrStabby said, a level 5-7 bladesinger who could have two weapon attacks plus bonus action Spiritual Weapon, along with Spirit Guardians up, able to defend themselves with Shield, Absorb Elements, and (instead of Spiritual Weapon, depending on situation) Shield of Faith... that all sounds right in the messy range of 'not so clearly overpowered as to be rapidly smacked down by an angry DM, but enough to frustrate the other players.' I have to remember to readjust my expectations, as the regular clerics in your campaign can also throw up Shields by selecting Magic Initiate... so the only part of this that is divergent from the rest of the game is the one extra attack. Hmmm... I don't think I would, as your DM, allow this change, but how much it runs roughshod over the game balance is going to depend on the other house rules your DM allows.

[jaappleton]

So combo-ing off what MrStabby said, a level 5-7 bladesinger who could have two weapon attacks plus bonus action Spiritual Weapon, along with Spirit Guardians up, able to defend themselves with Shield, Absorb Elements, and (instead of Spiritual Weapon, depending on situation) Shield of Faith... that all sounds right in the messy range of 'not so clearly overpowered as to be rapidly smacked down by an angry DM, but enough to frustrate the other players.' I have to remember to readjust my expectations, as the regular clerics in your campaign can also throw up Shields by selecting Magic Initiate... so the only part of this that is divergent from the rest of the game is the one extra attack. Hmmm... I don't think I would, as your DM, allow this change, but how much it runs roughshod over the game balance is going to depend on the other house rules your DM allows.

For the record, I can only take MI once. Meaning Shield OR Absorb Elements.

And FWIW, I could actually still get nearly all of that by just being a Bard with a particular Ravnica background.

I agree that, yes, what I'm asking for could.... push boundaries. However, can't nearly any build do that with the right combination of things?

[nickl_2000]

To be honest, it sounds to me that it's a can of worms that is way to complicated to allow. I may allow it on a spell by spell basis, but a full swap seems like a mess

[MaxWilson]

Isn't Healing Spirit a level 2 spell, though?

It's a moot point--clerics don't get Healing Spirit.


Plus I forget that others tables allow a conga line of healing. Mine only allows for 1 heal per round on Healing Spirit out of combat.

Me too, but Healing Spirit is still incredibly strong, can easily heal thousands of HP per long rest at mid-levels, except that nobody in practice really takes thousands of HP of damage per long rest. So in practice it's just "unlimited healing between combats."

[Man_Over_Game]

It's a moot point--clerics don't get Healing Spirit.

Just realized that, my bad.


Still, staying on top of healing between fights at level 18+ is a much smaller deal than trying to prevent something from insta-gibbing you or giving your enemy some kind of advantage, I find.

You could choose to use See Invisibility to cast on your entire party all the time, or Rope Trick to constantly abuse a vantage point, or Misty Step to teleport everywhere, or just cast Fly or Invisibility at-will for shenanigans. Regular healing just seems like it could be solved so many other ways for a max level caster.

[OverLordOcelot]

Wizard list is probably the most powerful list overall, with something like 1.5 times as many spells as the other lists (though that might have evened out with Xanathar's) and a number of really potent spells. Giving someone else the full wizard list is pretty much always going to give them more options, though it's not that bad on the classes that have a limited number of known spells. It's really staggeringly good with a cleric or druid's ability to pick prepared spells from the entire list, though, and the shenanigans of a druid able to cast any 9th level wizard spells while infinite whildshaping could be pretty immense.

[Willie the Duck]

For the record, I can only take MI once. Meaning Shield OR Absorb Elements.

And FWIW, I could actually still get nearly all of that by just being a Bard with a particular Ravnica background.

I agree that, yes, what I'm asking for could.... push boundaries. However, can't nearly any build do that with the right combination of things?

Sigh. And you are using Ravnica... okay, readjusting... y'know, I can't really say that this one change would be 'the thing' that pushed any build over the edge. That said, it sounds like your group likes playing around with knobs and levers and I deeply suspect that there would be some combo here that would be approach coffeelock level of disruptive, if not truly game-rupturing.


To be honest, it sounds to me that it's a can of worms that is way to complicated to allow. I may allow it on a spell by spell basis, but a full swap seems like a mess

'A mess' is really my primary concern far more than strict power level. 5e can accommodate feat-less champions and sorcadins or GAM/PAM/Sentinel using the same basic engine. I just imagine some level of unforeseen combinations making some kind of wacky mess that will gum up the gears somewhere.

[jaappleton]

Sigh. And you are using Ravnica... okay, readjusting... y'know, I can't really say that this one change would be 'the thing' that pushed any build over the edge. That said, it sounds like your group likes playing around with knobs and levers and I deeply suspect that there would be some combo here that would be approach coffeelock level of disruptive, if not truly game-rupturing.



'A mess' is really my primary concern far more than strict power level. 5e can accommodate feat-less champions and sorcadins or GAM/PAM/Sentinel using the same basic engine. I just imagine some level of unforeseen combinations making some kind of wacky mess that will gum up the gears somewhere.

For whatever its worth... And I admit I have statted up some gamebreakers... I wrote up a Tempest Theurge once.

I've never done Coffeelock.

If it gets to a point where I'll overshadow the party and step on someone in the parties toes (Like out-healer the healer, out-blast the blaster, etc), then I won't play it.

I also self-banned Healing Spirit from my repertoire... though in CoS, I am debating about lifting that ban, because its been brutal.

But, for example, if there's no skillmonkey and I can make something that has Expertise in damn near everything while still being able to contribute in other areas? I'll play it.

[OverLordOcelot]

So a Wizard abandoning the entire Wizard list and taking the Cleric is still an Arcane caster, still uses Int, keeps using their spellbook.

Is the Arcane/Divine distinction actually anywhere in the 5e rules? AFAIK they ditched the arcane/divine divide for mechanical effects and it only gets mentioned for tradition. Obviously a lot of campaigns use it, I'm just wondering if that actually makes a difference anywhere.

[Man_Over_Game]

Is the Arcane/Divine distinction actually anywhere in the 5e rules? AFAIK they ditched the arcane/divine divide for mechanical effects and it only gets mentioned for tradition. Obviously a lot of campaigns use it, I'm just wondering if that actually makes a difference anywhere.

It's mentioned that Channel Divinity channels power directly from their deity/divine source, but there's not much mention anywhere else. Or, alternatively, it has to do with their foci.

Additionally, there's very little overlap between "divine" and "arcane" magic, which is important, because Wizards can copy down spells that they find in any format as long as they can potentially cast it. Clerics can write down their spells, theoretically, but it doesn't do them any good, since they don't learn spells that way, and neither can anyone else.

Allowing a Wizard to learn Cleric spells as if they're Wizard spells just means a Cleric friend prepares different spells each day and writes them down so the Wizard can learn them, to have a single character memorize about half of the game's spells. Now, this does mean that the Wizard and the Cleric would have the same exact spell lists and could prepare the same exact number, but the Wizard would be the better caster (due to their class's support for casting).

[Trustypeaches]

A cleric or Druid able to access the entire wizard spell list with prepared spellcasting would be nuts.

Wizards are able to copy down spells, but they still generally have to make hard choices over what spells to learn each level, and many campaigns don’t have magic scrolls and spellbooks lying around. Cleric and Druids have none of these issues, all while being significantly more tanky than Wizards with larger hit dice and armor proficiencies.

Assuming they still get their circle / domain spells, Clerics and some Druid subclasses will have anywhere between 2 to 10 more spells prepared than a wizard at any given time. Many subclasses won’t even have to give up the amazing spells unique to Clerics. Life Domain Clerics would keep Bless, (Mass) Cure Wounds, Spiritual Weapon, Revivify, and Death Ward. They are only really sacrificing Spiritual Guardians.

There’s also silly stuff like Tempest Clerics with access to maximized Lightning Bolts or Moon Druids getting Haste and Mage Armor.