Funny thought: Overchannel + Zealot

[MaxWilson]

I've been thinking about Evokers recently. I'm not normally a fan of blasting in 5E, but there are some neat tricks Evokers can do (e.g. Overchannel Dawn to maximize the utility of Sculpt Spells, or the infamous Wands of Magic Missile trick, with or without a Hexblade 1 dip for medium armor + shields + Hexblade's Curse).

Anyway, the thought occurs that Overchannel can be used repeatedly, it just causes more and more damage each time you use it. The first couple of times you use it, you might be able to eat the damage, especially since vanilla 5E never reduces you below 0 HP, so 1 HP of healing can get you back on your feet for next round. But by the fifth time you use it, that Overchanneled Fireball V for 60 points of damage is going to whack you with 15d12 (98) necrotic damage, which might be enough to kill you outright.

So wouldn't it be hilarious to have a Zealot 3/Evoker 14+ who just Overchannels all the time and relies on his Lore Bard buddy to Healing Word or Revivify him afterwards?

[jaappleton]

I've been thinking about Evokers recently. I'm not normally a fan of blasting in 5E, but there are some neat tricks Evokers can do (e.g. Overchannel Dawn to maximize the utility of Sculpt Spells, or the infamous Wands of Magic Missile trick, with or without a Hexblade 1 dip for medium armor + shields + Hexblade's Curse).

Anyway, the thought occurs that Overchannel can be used repeatedly, it just causes more and more damage each time you use it. The first couple of times you use it, you might be able to eat the damage, especially since vanilla 5E never reduces you below 0 HP, so 1 HP of healing can get you back on your feet for next round. But by the fifth time you use it, that Overchanneled Fireball V for 60 points of damage is going to whack you with 15d12 (98) necrotic damage, which might be enough to kill you outright.

So wouldn't it be hilarious to have a Zealot 3/Evoker 14+ who just Overchannels all the time and relies on his Lore Bard buddy to Healing Word or Revivify him afterwards?

You'd have to name the character Conduit.

[Digimike]

Make it a Half Orc to get a free "avoid death free" card.

[MaxWilson]

Make it a Half Orc to get a free "avoid death free" card.

Well, sort of. It won't prevent you from being killed, but it can at least save your buddy a Healing Word. A nice pre-cast Death Ward can save you from dying though, which might be nice if you're going to Overchannel Sickening Radiance and don't want to lose concentration by dying.

[Man_Over_Game]

How do you Overchannel while Raging?

[MaxWilson]

How do you Overchannel while Raging?

The Rage isn't the relevant feature here. For the most part I imagine that the character wouldn't bother Raging at all.

[Potato_Priest]

How do you Overchannel while Raging?

You don't, this relies on the Zealot's 3rd level feature allowing free resurrection. I assume the rest of the build would be wizard levels to get the most out of Evoker.

[MaxWilson]

You don't, this relies on the Zealot's 3rd level feature allowing free resurrection. I assume the rest of the build would be wizard levels to get the most out of Evoker.

Or maybe there aren't any other levels--maybe it's just a 17th level character. It might be funnier as an NPC actually, with a long-suffering 6th level Lore Bard sidekick in charge of his resurrections. Or maybe it's only funny in my imagination. :-)

[R.Shackleford]

Combine overchannel with temp HP

1d4 + 4 + 5/spell level above 1st.

1d4 (2) + 4 = 6 + (5 * 9)... Casting this with a 9th level slot... 51 temp HP.

Horrible use of the spell slot but you can keep using overchannel.

[MaxWilson]

Combine overchannel with temp HP

1d4 + 4 + 5/spell level above 1st.

1d4 (2) + 4 = 6 + (5 * 9)... Casting this with a 9th level slot... 51 temp HP.

Horrible use of the spell slot but you can keep using overchannel.

Which hypothetical spell are you casting at 9th level? Is it False Life?

Also I think your math is off. Should be 6 + (5 * 8) for a total of 46, not 51.

[Man_Over_Game]

One thing I noticed that's really odd is that Overchannel's Necrotic Damage ignores resistances and immunities, but yet it still does necrotic damage.

Is this to confirm that there can't be "typeless" damage? And if so, why not use Force damage, which is pure magic? It just seems so odd that there is a nearly unmitigated damage type available regarding pure energy, and they instead use the damage type of Death and just say that it doesn't matter what kind of damage type it is.

The only time I think that the Necrotic piece of it would ever be relevant is if you were vulnerable to Necrotic damage. So...some plants, or Devas or something?

[Yunru]

One thing I noticed that's really odd is that Overchannel's Necrotic Damage ignores resistances and immunities, but yet it still does necrotic damage.

Is this to confirm that there can't be "typeless" damage? And if so, why not use Force damage, which is pure magic? It just seems so odd that there is a nearly unmitigated damage type available regarding pure energy, and they instead use the damage type of Death and just say that it doesn't matter what kind of damage type it is.

The only time I think that the Necrotic piece of it would ever be relevant is if you were vulnerable to Necrotic damage. So...some plants, or Devas or something?

Flavour. It's not magical kickback so much as it is your body withering under the strain of channelling the magic.

[MaxWilson]

One thing I noticed that's really odd is that Overchannel's Necrotic Damage ignores resistances and immunities, but yet it still does necrotic damage.

Is this to confirm that there can't be "typeless" damage? And if so, why not use Force damage, which is pure magic? It just seems so odd that there is a nearly unmitigated damage type available regarding pure energy, and they instead use the damage type of Death and just say that it doesn't matter what kind of damage type it is.

The only time I think that the Necrotic piece of it would ever be relevant is if you were vulnerable to Necrotic damage. So...some plants, or Devas or something?

Even if they did use Force damage, they would still need to have the "ignores resistance/immunity" clause or else the possibility would exist for exploits via e.g. Warding Bond.

[Man_Over_Game]

Even if they did use Force damage, they would still need to have the "ignores resistance/immunity" clause or else the possibility would exist for exploits via e.g. Warding Bond.

It's not like that'd be a big deal, IMO. Force damage between two people still really sucks, and the Overchannel damage increases with each use.

I think a Redemption Paladin would still be able to absorb it on your behalf, though.

[Vogie]

How do you Overchannel while Raging?

You only rage when you're out of slots to overchannel. It makes you mad.

[MaxWilson]

It's not like that'd be a big deal, IMO. Force damage between two people still really sucks, and the Overchannel damage increases with each use.

I think a Redemption Paladin would still be able to absorb it on your behalf, though.

That's one example I came up with off the top of my head, but consider for example what would happen if they didn't have the "ignores resistance and immunity" clause in Overchannel without changing it to Force damage: now Shadar Kai Evokers (immune to necrotic damage) become monstrously effective, and so does any Evoker who Magic Jars into a Shadar Kai body. (It's not like wizards don't already have reasons to steal Gloomweaver bodies, but this would synergize even better than before.)

Off the top of my head, the only monster I can think of that is immune to Force damage is the Helmed Horror, so the only way currently to exploit Overchannel if your suggestion were implemented would be to Shapechange into a Helmed Horror (might require Sorcerer levels for Subtle Spell, based on how your DM views the "can't speak" clause in the Helmed Horror stat block), but any DM who ever invented a monster that was immune to force damage would have to keep Overchannel in mind, and that seems wrong. If the intention is not to disallow damage-reduction exploits because Overchannel is using up your life force or something, it makes perfect sense to either:

(1) Do what they did and say resistance/immunity don't help; or

(2) Rewrite overchannel to make the overchannel effect contingent on you actually taking the full amount of damage. If you reduce the damage somehow, the overchanneling damage boost doesn't work--it's just a normal spell.

#2 is a little more elegant than #1 but in practical terms they're equivalent.

[R.Shackleford]

Which hypothetical spell are you casting at 9th level? Is it False Life?

Also I think your math is off. Should be 6 + (5 * 8) for a total of 46, not 51.

Yeah false life, horrible use of the spell slot but Overchannel only works on level 1 - 5 spells... So you have 6 - 9 to work with.